2010.06.10 01:00 - Perceptions of Disability and Relationships

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Calvino Rabeni and Zaldaan Sirnah.

    Greetings, Marcus Aurelius and bad typing:

    Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Zen :)
    Zen Arado: how are you ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Some variety of good :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And yourself?
    Zen Arado: ok I think
    Zen Arado: it's a daft question really when you think of it
    Zen Arado: you just are
    Zen Arado: why judge yourslef?
    Zen Arado: I just ordered a book on Kindle
    Calvino Rabeni: Well I don't bother with that :) But might feel like a 100 channel TV and don't know what to watch :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Kindle - I haven't tried it
    Calvino Rabeni: I think I'd like a screen that didn't glow
    Zen Arado: I was reading Eckart Tolle's newsletter and he mentioned a book by a Stic philosopher Marcus Aurelius
    Zen Arado: Stoic*
    Zen Arado: it only cost $1.16
    Zen Arado: 'Love nothing but that which comes to you woven in the pattern of your destiny. For what could more aptly fit your needs?' - Marcus Aurelius
    Zen Arado: KIndle is a great gadget
    Zen Arado: only snag is that the range of books is linited
    Zen Arado: my typing is so bad in the mornings!
    Calvino Rabeni: mine is pretty consistently bad ...
    Zen Arado: mine too but especially bad in the morning
    Calvino Rabeni: ... which is a good thing, all considered
    Zen Arado: why?
    Calvino Rabeni: well, it reduced the babble to a manageable rate
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: I just produce badly typed babble :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and therefore cultivates patience, which is a virtue, as my mind relaxes waiting for the typing to catch up
    Calvino Rabeni: although it feels a bit like one of those early teletype terminals for computers
    Zen Arado: I can only type on laptops
    Zen Arado: using a wristrest
    Calvino Rabeni: which were rather nice, because they limited the speed of information production by machines to about what a good typist could manage
    Calvino Rabeni: really .. it's one thing I never got the knack of doing
    Calvino Rabeni: In fact I'd be happy to buy a laptop that had no keyboard
    Zen Arado: my hands and arms are so weak
    Calvino Rabeni: just a tablet configuration
    Zen Arado: I tried 4 different keyboards for a PC and couldn't type very well on any of them
    Zen Arado: it means I can't use the touchpad
    Calvino Rabeni: I just stick with the ergonomic keyboard, preferably a light thin one
    Zen Arado: because it is covered by the wristrest
    Zen Arado: and you don't have a laptop?
    Calvino Rabeni: hmm, a trackball or, how do you move the cursor around?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I am on one now
    Zen Arado: no I can use a mouse

    Old friends reunited:

    Zen Arado: I re-established contact with some friends I haven't seen for over 45 years this week
    Calvino Rabeni: personal meetings ?
    Zen Arado: no - just through email
    Calvino Rabeni: any reunion plans?
    Zen Arado: guys I knew in Australia in the early 60's
    Zen Arado: not yet
    Zen Arado: one lives in Melbourne Australia
    Zen Arado: another in Vancouver
    Calvino Rabeni: That could be suspenseful, I'd think
    Zen Arado: and the other in Spain
    Zen Arado: makes me wonder in a way
    Zen Arado: we have all changed so much
    Zen Arado: maybe wouldn't have much in common any more
    Zen Arado: but it would be nice to talk about old times
    Zen Arado: I was so surprised to see their photos
    Zen Arado: they are od men with white hair and one has a white beard
    Zen Arado: old*
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, then, that's nice they kept their hair :)
    Zen Arado: don;t think they use computers very much
    Zen Arado: suppose thats a consolation
    Zen Arado: one is coming to London in September so I might go and see him

    Openness and disabilities:

    Zen Arado: they were surprised when I told them I was in a wheelchair now
    Zen Arado: in those days I hid my disability pretty well
    Zen Arado: as you did
    Zen Arado: you can be more open about disability nowadays
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes so it seems
    Calvino Rabeni: I wonder if that's going to happen for mental disabilities also
    Zen Arado: I think it is
    Zen Arado: I have a friend with Aspergers
    Zen Arado: though I heard a radio program last night where they were talking of getting rid of that term and just including it in the broad classification of Autism spectrum disorders
    Zen Arado: there is a ref manual for these that is getting too big and unwieldy - DMS I think they called it
    Zen Arado: no - it was the DSM : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnos...ntal_Disorders
    Calvino Rabeni: I was browsing wikipedia today, relative to various health conditions of people I know (and not excepting myself from that list)
    Calvino Rabeni: There is so much information available
    Zen Arado: maybe too much?
    Calvino Rabeni: and the classifications and diagnoses are so complex and seemingly unstable
    Calvino Rabeni: For many of those conditions, there's no accepted diagnostic protocol
    Calvino Rabeni: and the symptoms vary and overlap
    Zen Arado: it's like the way we put labels on things and then think we know all about the thing
    Calvino Rabeni: used to be .... :)
    Calvino Rabeni: But this information seems to shatter that paradigm
    Zen Arado: well - there are so many variations in what happens with people with my type of MD
    Zen Arado: you wonder if it is the same disease sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: and the same is true with what seems like the majority of medical challenges
    Zen Arado: makes you realize how unique we all are
    Calvino Rabeni: the isolated, simple-cause phenomena now appear to be in the minority
    Zen Arado: and not to put people in boxes
    Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, I can't quite see that as "uniqueness" - just a large number of combinations of differences of a hypercomplex system
    Zen Arado: I don't have any problem talking about MD to people
    Zen Arado: the more they know the better
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Zen Arado: although it can be a bit tiring sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: But it's more challenging in some ways, when the situation involves mental states
    Zen Arado: yes I agree
    Calvino Rabeni: Although I've had people give it a go, which I admire
    Zen Arado: so we judge people more from their mental ability than physical capacity?
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, "judge" seems like it refers to the conclusion of a fairly long complex process
    Zen Arado: hello Zaldaan
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not even sure people get there
    Zen Arado: have you been here before?
    Calvino Rabeni: Zal has
    Zen Arado: ok

    Zaldaan arrives and we talk about perceptions of mental and physical disabilities :

    Zaldaan Sirnah: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Judge happens at the end of the "trial"
    Zen Arado: yes - they go on first impressions
    Calvino Rabeni: but with a lot of these things, people don't even understand enough to make an informed opinion
    Zen Arado: we are just talking about people's perceptions of others with disabilities Zal
    Calvino Rabeni: including mental disabilities or other conditions
    Calvino Rabeni: and they might not even be properly considered that, necessarily
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Disabilities suck.
    Zen Arado: most people I know don't know anything about Aspergers
    Calvino Rabeni: Something like occasional mania - I don't see that as a "disability":
    Zen Arado: depression is very common yet people hide it
    Calvino Rabeni: Controlled schizophrenia, psychosis ...
    Zen Arado: if someone asks 'how are you' you don't say 'I'm very depressed at the moment ' :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I do
    Calvino Rabeni: Or, "I'm god of the universe" or "satan is around the corner", etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: Or hearing voices
    Zen Arado: or 'I am Hitler '
    Calvino Rabeni: OR any kinds of halucinations
    Zaldaan Sirnah: With proper guidance it's possible to have people with disabilities be more balanced than "normal" people
    Calvino Rabeni: Why not call them "gifts" then ?
    Zen Arado: yes - and what is 'normal' anyway
    Zen Arado: there is no normal
    Calvino Rabeni: Or "special talents" - if that were true, not just a euphemism
    Zen Arado: I am fascinated by the way my friend with Aspergers thinks about things
    Zaldaan Sirnah: well, mental is not the same as physical is it?
    Zen Arado: so logical and particular
    Calvino Rabeni: That would be interesting
    Zen Arado: she keeps telling me I am generalizing
    Zen Arado: and I realize that I do far too much
    Calvino Rabeni: I know several people who have visions sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: not to whitewash it - sometimes those are quite distressing - but other times not...
    Zen Arado: yes - I am suspicious of visions and experiences like that
    Calvino Rabeni: And sometimes compatible with being highly "functional" in, e.g. a corporate environment
    Zen Arado: but it's just outside my experience
    Calvino Rabeni: Mine too, but I'm not going to tell them - NO, I don't believe you actually saw (or heard) that....
    Zen Arado: wouldn't have thoght visions were compatible with organizational world
    Zaldaan Sirnah: as people's knowledge grows they will be in command of these things, and prevent them
    Zaldaan Sirnah: that's a generalization :
    Zen Arado: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, they are in some cases quite manageable
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I do question them on the details of their experience
    Calvino Rabeni: The person knows which are the "Real" ones that would be seen by their co-workers, and doesn't mention the others
    Calvino Rabeni: Of course, some people can't tell which are the real ones
    Zen Arado: kind of edit them
    Calvino Rabeni: Right
    Zen Arado: wonder how you know what is real
    Calvino Rabeni: It is hard to know how common that is - as you mentioned, people would conceal it if they *can*
    Zen Arado: I am seeing lightning atm here
    Calvino Rabeni: Hint - if there's someone in the room talking, and other people are paying attention to it, it is a clue to treat it as "real"
    Calvino Rabeni: LIghtning can do that ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I'll take it as indirect evidence the lightning was "real"
    Calvino Rabeni: WB aen
    Calvino Rabeni: Zen
    Zen Arado: I crashed...that's why I saw 'lightning'

    The 'lightning' was me about to crash which I did, American English/English English differences:

    Zen Arado: I restarted it anyway
    Calvino Rabeni: Let me know if that happens, I'll take care of it
    Zaldaan Sirnah: people do not have proper vision to properly see the capabilities and love within others, with disabilities or not
    Zaldaan Sirnah: some are better able to see.
    Zen Arado: so true Zal
    Calvino Rabeni: Any amount of "seeing" that stuff is pretty worthwhile
    Zen Arado: SL is playing up for me this morning
    Zen Arado: I agrre Zal
    Zaldaan Sirnah: and by capability I mean not only the potential gifts which come out of strange circumnstances, but, perhaps something more along the lines of the true identity of an individual.
    Calvino Rabeni: Playing up ... same as acting up ...'
    Zen Arado: yes :)
    Calvino Rabeni: tell me zen, what do you do with decisions, "take" them or "make" them ...?
    Zen Arado: Eckhart Tolle says that we are all the same in essence, just different in form...
    Zen Arado: make them I would say
    Calvino Rabeni: That seems a puzzle, Zal, seeing between personality and essence
    Zen Arado: heard a guy on the radio say this morning that we have to allow for subtle differences between American and English English
    Calvino Rabeni: or else... ?
    Zen Arado: it was about the oil disaster
    Zen Arado: how the remarks of the BP CEO were picked up by American public
    Calvino Rabeni: interpreting intentions and so on ?
    Zen Arado: or else misunderstandings arise
    Zen Arado: yes

    Appreciating differences as they are or seeing underneath them?

    Zen Arado: maybe it helps us be more understanding of others if we realize that we are all the same underneath - just our culture and life events have made us the way we are
    Zen Arado: so you see past the disability to the person underneath...
    Calvino Rabeni: that's been a time-honoured strategy, Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: but it concerns me a little
    Zen Arado: why?
    Calvino Rabeni: in that there's the assumption that it is necessary to assume sameness in order to accept and appreciate others
    Calvino Rabeni: it seems a subtle form of "normal"
    Calvino Rabeni: why not appreciate the differences, unconditionally
    Calvino Rabeni: ?
    Zen Arado: hmmmmm....good point Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: But - it has worked pretty well historically Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: although I think the strategy is getting a little strained now
    Calvino Rabeni: it is stressed by compelxity and diversity
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I thought it concerned him because it implies that deep down he must actually be that concerned person too, in essence. :)
    Calvino Rabeni: that seems true also
    Zaldaan Sirnah: if you take everyone and remove all the heat, don't they condense into one particle?
    Calvino Rabeni: being "different" or "the same" seems almost meaningless - or perhaps it's just an aesthetic choice of what to look at
    Zen Arado: it's maybe about how you respond to differences
    Calvino Rabeni: that would matter :)
    Zen Arado: fear them or appreciate them
    Zaldaan Sirnah: well, for some reason I don't see people explaining. When they say, "we're all the same" they don't give the underlying truth
    Calvino Rabeni: If seeing the sameness makes people feel more relaxed about the differences - which I'd guess it does - then it sounds like a good strategy
    Zaldaan Sirnah: although nowadays some people mention a few things here and there
    Zen Arado: but through meditation I get back to 'being' 'true self' etc which I think I share with others?
    Zen Arado: I realize I have a lot in common with all humanity yet appreciate my own particular uniqueness at the same time?
    Calvino Rabeni: that sounds intelligent
    Zen Arado: and also appreciate the uniqueness of others?
    Calvino Rabeni: one question is what is the effect of this being a unilateral condition - if you do it and others don't ...
    Zen Arado: hope it's not intelligent but a form of 'not - knowing' :)
    Calvino Rabeni: that is real intelligence
    Zen Arado: always a problem Cal
    Zen Arado: 'the seing man in the world of the blind'
    Zen Arado: seeing*
    Zen Arado: or you maybe see a glimpse of something others don't
    Zaldaan Sirnah: you perceive differently
    Calvino Rabeni: it's likely that since seeing is so inconsistent, there are many things others see and oneself is blind to it
    Zaldaan Sirnah: when you see with your eyes, you do not answer to that as authority
    Calvino Rabeni: and vice versa
    Zaldaan Sirnah: people do this
    Zaldaan Sirnah: you must witness it differently
    Calvino Rabeni: there is that, true
    Zen Arado: danger of feeling superior to to others
    Zaldaan Sirnah: when? how?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: if one sees in this way their vision comes from the unity

    Comparing oneself to others:

    Zaldaan Sirnah: when that happens, they know that is the case
    Calvino Rabeni: perhaps an equivalent danger is the prevalence of the notion of being inferior to others
    Calvino Rabeni: all those so called self-esteem issues
    Zen Arado: so we don't bother judging ourselves
    Calvino Rabeni: ah, not from what I've heard :)
    Zen Arado: it all comes from comparing ourselves with others
    Zen Arado: so don't do it ?
    Calvino Rabeni: comparisons are natural
    Calvino Rabeni: making a big rigid conclusion from it is not so useful
    Zen Arado: this is coming up for me with the guys I was just reunited with after 45 years
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah, that will be interesting
    Zen Arado: have they been more successful than me in life?
    Calvino Rabeni: There are some people from my past I'd hesitate to reconnect with

    Are wives and families an indicator of success in life?

    Zen Arado: and what is success in this case?
    Zen Arado: well - they have wives and families and I haven't
    Zen Arado: that is real success I guess....
    Calvino Rabeni: well, and even the ones who are on hard times in some ways compared to me ...
    Zaldaan Sirnah: you want a wife and family?
    Zen Arado: not sure....it never happened for me anyhow
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure zal, can you send one over :) ?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: "Say, there is no god but God, succeed."
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: "Ghulu, la elaha el-Allah, tuflehu."
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Calvino, over the internet? Online dating services?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I hear love has no boundaries
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I've heard that said also
    Zen Arado: seems so easy for some....
    Zaldaan Sirnah: a friend of mine recently found someone on a local, to her, online dating service
    Zaldaan Sirnah: it's been months now .. she says she thinks it's love.
    Calvino Rabeni: was it one of those ones with a filter and a matching routine?
    Zen Arado: there's a big difference between finding partners and staying with them on a long term basis
    Calvino Rabeni: Which should I start with ? :)
    Zen Arado: finding compatibility I'm trying to say
    Zen Arado: in my case I mean
    Zen Arado: maybe as you get older you grow more eccentric and unique
    Calvino Rabeni: Have you been seeking in that regard?
    Zen Arado: makes it harder to blend with another
    Zen Arado: I don't seek so much as stay open to possiblities
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght
    Zen Arado: anyway - I have to go
    Zaldaan Sirnah: bye me too
    Zen Arado: thanks for interesting conversation
    Zen Arado: bye
    Calvino Rabeni: So that's one thing that happens as people develop, but also maybe get more skillful at relatiing
    Calvino Rabeni: You're welcome Zen and Zal
    Calvino Rabeni: See you later, have a good day :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm off also, good night Zal

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