2010.06.10 01:00 - Perceptions of Disability and Relationships

    Table of contents
    No headers

     
    The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Calvino Rabeni and Zaldaan Sirnah.


    Greetings, Marcus Aurelius and bad typing:

    Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Zen :)
    Zen Arado: how are you ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Some variety of good :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And yourself?
    Zen Arado: ok I think
    Zen Arado: it's a daft question really when you think of it
    Zen Arado: you just are
    Zen Arado: why judge yourslef?
    Zen Arado: I just ordered a book on Kindle
    Calvino Rabeni: Well I don't bother with that :) But might feel like a 100 channel TV and don't know what to watch :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Kindle - I haven't tried it
    Calvino Rabeni: I think I'd like a screen that didn't glow
    Zen Arado: I was reading Eckart Tolle's newsletter and he mentioned a book by a Stic philosopher Marcus Aurelius
    Zen Arado: Stoic*
    Zen Arado: it only cost $1.16
    Zen Arado: 'Love nothing but that which comes to you woven in the pattern of your destiny. For what could more aptly fit your needs?' - Marcus Aurelius
    Zen Arado: KIndle is a great gadget
    Zen Arado: only snag is that the range of books is linited
    Zen Arado: my typing is so bad in the mornings!
    Calvino Rabeni: mine is pretty consistently bad ...
    Zen Arado: mine too but especially bad in the morning
    Calvino Rabeni: ... which is a good thing, all considered
    Zen Arado: why?
    Calvino Rabeni: well, it reduced the babble to a manageable rate
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: I just produce badly typed babble :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and therefore cultivates patience, which is a virtue, as my mind relaxes waiting for the typing to catch up
    Calvino Rabeni: although it feels a bit like one of those early teletype terminals for computers
    Zen Arado: I can only type on laptops
    Zen Arado: using a wristrest
    Calvino Rabeni: which were rather nice, because they limited the speed of information production by machines to about what a good typist could manage
    Calvino Rabeni: really .. it's one thing I never got the knack of doing
    Calvino Rabeni: In fact I'd be happy to buy a laptop that had no keyboard
    Zen Arado: my hands and arms are so weak
    Calvino Rabeni: just a tablet configuration
    Zen Arado: I tried 4 different keyboards for a PC and couldn't type very well on any of them
    Zen Arado: it means I can't use the touchpad
    Calvino Rabeni: I just stick with the ergonomic keyboard, preferably a light thin one
    Zen Arado: because it is covered by the wristrest
    Zen Arado: and you don't have a laptop?
    Calvino Rabeni: hmm, a trackball or, how do you move the cursor around?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I am on one now
    Zen Arado: no I can use a mouse

    Old friends reunited:

    Zen Arado: I re-established contact with some friends I haven't seen for over 45 years this week
    Calvino Rabeni: personal meetings ?
    Zen Arado: no - just through email
    Calvino Rabeni: any reunion plans?
    Zen Arado: guys I knew in Australia in the early 60's
    Zen Arado: not yet
    Zen Arado: one lives in Melbourne Australia
    Zen Arado: another in Vancouver
    Calvino Rabeni: That could be suspenseful, I'd think
    Zen Arado: and the other in Spain
    Zen Arado: makes me wonder in a way
    Zen Arado: we have all changed so much
    Zen Arado: maybe wouldn't have much in common any more
    Zen Arado: but it would be nice to talk about old times
    Zen Arado: I was so surprised to see their photos
    Zen Arado: they are od men with white hair and one has a white beard
    Zen Arado: old*
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, then, that's nice they kept their hair :)
    Zen Arado: don;t think they use computers very much
    Zen Arado: suppose thats a consolation
    Zen Arado: one is coming to London in September so I might go and see him

    Openness and disabilities:

    Zen Arado: they were surprised when I told them I was in a wheelchair now
    Zen Arado: in those days I hid my disability pretty well
    Zen Arado: as you did
    Zen Arado: you can be more open about disability nowadays
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes so it seems
    Calvino Rabeni: I wonder if that's going to happen for mental disabilities also
    Zen Arado: I think it is
    Zen Arado: I have a friend with Aspergers
    Zen Arado: though I heard a radio program last night where they were talking of getting rid of that term and just including it in the broad classification of Autism spectrum disorders
    Zen Arado: there is a ref manual for these that is getting too big and unwieldy - DMS I think they called it
    Zen Arado: no - it was the DSM : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnos...ntal_Disorders
    Calvino Rabeni: I was browsing wikipedia today, relative to various health conditions of people I know (and not excepting myself from that list)
    Calvino Rabeni: There is so much information available
    Zen Arado: maybe too much?
    Calvino Rabeni: and the classifications and diagnoses are so complex and seemingly unstable
    Calvino Rabeni: For many of those conditions, there's no accepted diagnostic protocol
    Calvino Rabeni: and the symptoms vary and overlap
    Zen Arado: it's like the way we put labels on things and then think we know all about the thing
    Calvino Rabeni: used to be .... :)
    Calvino Rabeni: But this information seems to shatter that paradigm
    Zen Arado: well - there are so many variations in what happens with people with my type of MD
    Zen Arado: you wonder if it is the same disease sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: and the same is true with what seems like the majority of medical challenges
    Zen Arado: makes you realize how unique we all are
    Calvino Rabeni: the isolated, simple-cause phenomena now appear to be in the minority
    Zen Arado: and not to put people in boxes
    Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, I can't quite see that as "uniqueness" - just a large number of combinations of differences of a hypercomplex system
    Zen Arado: I don't have any problem talking about MD to people
    Zen Arado: the more they know the better
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Zen Arado: although it can be a bit tiring sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: But it's more challenging in some ways, when the situation involves mental states
    Zen Arado: yes I agree
    Calvino Rabeni: Although I've had people give it a go, which I admire
    Zen Arado: so we judge people more from their mental ability than physical capacity?
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, "judge" seems like it refers to the conclusion of a fairly long complex process
    Zen Arado: hello Zaldaan
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not even sure people get there
    Zen Arado: have you been here before?
    Calvino Rabeni: Zal has
    Zen Arado: ok

    Zaldaan arrives and we talk about perceptions of mental and physical disabilities :

    Zaldaan Sirnah: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Judge happens at the end of the "trial"
    Zen Arado: yes - they go on first impressions
    Calvino Rabeni: but with a lot of these things, people don't even understand enough to make an informed opinion
    Zen Arado: we are just talking about people's perceptions of others with disabilities Zal
    Calvino Rabeni: including mental disabilities or other conditions
    Calvino Rabeni: and they might not even be properly considered that, necessarily
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Disabilities suck.
    Zen Arado: most people I know don't know anything about Aspergers
    Calvino Rabeni: Something like occasional mania - I don't see that as a "disability":
    Zen Arado: depression is very common yet people hide it
    Calvino Rabeni: Controlled schizophrenia, psychosis ...
    Zen Arado: if someone asks 'how are you' you don't say 'I'm very depressed at the moment ' :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I do
    Calvino Rabeni: Or, "I'm god of the universe" or "satan is around the corner", etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: Or hearing voices
    Zen Arado: or 'I am Hitler '
    Calvino Rabeni: OR any kinds of halucinations
    Zaldaan Sirnah: With proper guidance it's possible to have people with disabilities be more balanced than "normal" people
    Calvino Rabeni: Why not call them "gifts" then ?
    Zen Arado: yes - and what is 'normal' anyway
    Zen Arado: there is no normal
    Calvino Rabeni: Or "special talents" - if that were true, not just a euphemism
    Zen Arado: I am fascinated by the way my friend with Aspergers thinks about things
    Zaldaan Sirnah: well, mental is not the same as physical is it?
    Zen Arado: so logical and particular
    Calvino Rabeni: That would be interesting
    Zen Arado: she keeps telling me I am generalizing
    Zen Arado: and I realize that I do far too much
    Calvino Rabeni: I know several people who have visions sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: not to whitewash it - sometimes those are quite distressing - but other times not...
    Zen Arado: yes - I am suspicious of visions and experiences like that
    Calvino Rabeni: And sometimes compatible with being highly "functional" in, e.g. a corporate environment
    Zen Arado: but it's just outside my experience
    Calvino Rabeni: Mine too, but I'm not going to tell them - NO, I don't believe you actually saw (or heard) that....
    Zen Arado: wouldn't have thoght visions were compatible with organizational world
    Zaldaan Sirnah: as people's knowledge grows they will be in command of these things, and prevent them
    Zaldaan Sirnah: that's a generalization :
    Zen Arado: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, they are in some cases quite manageable
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I do question them on the details of their experience
    Calvino Rabeni: The person knows which are the "Real" ones that would be seen by their co-workers, and doesn't mention the others
    Calvino Rabeni: Of course, some people can't tell which are the real ones
    Zen Arado: kind of edit them
    Calvino Rabeni: Right
    Zen Arado: wonder how you know what is real
    Calvino Rabeni: It is hard to know how common that is - as you mentioned, people would conceal it if they *can*
    Zen Arado: I am seeing lightning atm here
    Calvino Rabeni: Hint - if there's someone in the room talking, and other people are paying attention to it, it is a clue to treat it as "real"
    Calvino Rabeni: LIghtning can do that ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I'll take it as indirect evidence the lightning was "real"
    Calvino Rabeni: WB aen
    Calvino Rabeni: Zen
    Zen Arado: I crashed...that's why I saw 'lightning'

    The 'lightning' was me about to crash which I did, American English/English English differences:

    Zen Arado: I restarted it anyway
    Calvino Rabeni: Let me know if that happens, I'll take care of it
    Zaldaan Sirnah: people do not have proper vision to properly see the capabilities and love within others, with disabilities or not
    Zaldaan Sirnah: some are better able to see.
    Zen Arado: so true Zal
    Calvino Rabeni: Any amount of "seeing" that stuff is pretty worthwhile
    Zen Arado: SL is playing up for me this morning
    Zen Arado: I agrre Zal
    Zaldaan Sirnah: and by capability I mean not only the potential gifts which come out of strange circumnstances, but, perhaps something more along the lines of the true identity of an individual.
    Calvino Rabeni: Playing up ... same as acting up ...'
    Zen Arado: yes :)
    Calvino Rabeni: tell me zen, what do you do with decisions, "take" them or "make" them ...?
    Zen Arado: Eckhart Tolle says that we are all the same in essence, just different in form...
    Zen Arado: make them I would say
    Calvino Rabeni: That seems a puzzle, Zal, seeing between personality and essence
    Zen Arado: heard a guy on the radio say this morning that we have to allow for subtle differences between American and English English
    Calvino Rabeni: or else... ?
    Zen Arado: it was about the oil disaster
    Zen Arado: how the remarks of the BP CEO were picked up by American public
    Calvino Rabeni: interpreting intentions and so on ?
    Zen Arado: or else misunderstandings arise
    Zen Arado: yes

    Appreciating differences as they are or seeing underneath them?

    Zen Arado: maybe it helps us be more understanding of others if we realize that we are all the same underneath - just our culture and life events have made us the way we are
    Zen Arado: so you see past the disability to the person underneath...
    Calvino Rabeni: that's been a time-honoured strategy, Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: but it concerns me a little
    Zen Arado: why?
    Calvino Rabeni: in that there's the assumption that it is necessary to assume sameness in order to accept and appreciate others
    Calvino Rabeni: it seems a subtle form of "normal"
    Calvino Rabeni: why not appreciate the differences, unconditionally
    Calvino Rabeni: ?
    Zen Arado: hmmmmm....good point Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: But - it has worked pretty well historically Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: although I think the strategy is getting a little strained now
    Calvino Rabeni: it is stressed by compelxity and diversity
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I thought it concerned him because it implies that deep down he must actually be that concerned person too, in essence. :)
    Calvino Rabeni: that seems true also
    Zaldaan Sirnah: if you take everyone and remove all the heat, don't they condense into one particle?
    Calvino Rabeni: being "different" or "the same" seems almost meaningless - or perhaps it's just an aesthetic choice of what to look at
    Zen Arado: it's maybe about how you respond to differences
    Calvino Rabeni: that would matter :)
    Zen Arado: fear them or appreciate them
    Zaldaan Sirnah: well, for some reason I don't see people explaining. When they say, "we're all the same" they don't give the underlying truth
    Calvino Rabeni: If seeing the sameness makes people feel more relaxed about the differences - which I'd guess it does - then it sounds like a good strategy
    Zaldaan Sirnah: although nowadays some people mention a few things here and there
    Zen Arado: but through meditation I get back to 'being' 'true self' etc which I think I share with others?
    Zen Arado: I realize I have a lot in common with all humanity yet appreciate my own particular uniqueness at the same time?
    Calvino Rabeni: that sounds intelligent
    Zen Arado: and also appreciate the uniqueness of others?
    Calvino Rabeni: one question is what is the effect of this being a unilateral condition - if you do it and others don't ...
    Zen Arado: hope it's not intelligent but a form of 'not - knowing' :)
    Calvino Rabeni: that is real intelligence
    Zen Arado: always a problem Cal
    Zen Arado: 'the seing man in the world of the blind'
    Zen Arado: seeing*
    Zen Arado: or you maybe see a glimpse of something others don't
    Zaldaan Sirnah: you perceive differently
    Calvino Rabeni: it's likely that since seeing is so inconsistent, there are many things others see and oneself is blind to it
    Zaldaan Sirnah: when you see with your eyes, you do not answer to that as authority
    Calvino Rabeni: and vice versa
    Zaldaan Sirnah: people do this
    Zaldaan Sirnah: you must witness it differently
    Calvino Rabeni: there is that, true
    Zen Arado: danger of feeling superior to to others
    Zaldaan Sirnah: when? how?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: if one sees in this way their vision comes from the unity

    Comparing oneself to others:

    Zaldaan Sirnah: when that happens, they know that is the case
    Calvino Rabeni: perhaps an equivalent danger is the prevalence of the notion of being inferior to others
    Calvino Rabeni: all those so called self-esteem issues
    Zen Arado: so we don't bother judging ourselves
    Calvino Rabeni: ah, not from what I've heard :)
    Zen Arado: it all comes from comparing ourselves with others
    Zen Arado: so don't do it ?
    Calvino Rabeni: comparisons are natural
    Calvino Rabeni: making a big rigid conclusion from it is not so useful
    Zen Arado: this is coming up for me with the guys I was just reunited with after 45 years
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah, that will be interesting
    Zen Arado: have they been more successful than me in life?
    Calvino Rabeni: There are some people from my past I'd hesitate to reconnect with

    Are wives and families an indicator of success in life?

    Zen Arado: and what is success in this case?
    Zen Arado: well - they have wives and families and I haven't
    Zen Arado: that is real success I guess....
    Calvino Rabeni: well, and even the ones who are on hard times in some ways compared to me ...
    Zaldaan Sirnah: you want a wife and family?
    Zen Arado: not sure....it never happened for me anyhow
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure zal, can you send one over :) ?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: "Say, there is no god but God, succeed."
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: "Ghulu, la elaha el-Allah, tuflehu."
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Calvino, over the internet? Online dating services?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I hear love has no boundaries
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I've heard that said also
    Zen Arado: seems so easy for some....
    Zaldaan Sirnah: a friend of mine recently found someone on a local, to her, online dating service
    Zaldaan Sirnah: it's been months now .. she says she thinks it's love.
    Calvino Rabeni: was it one of those ones with a filter and a matching routine?
    Zen Arado: there's a big difference between finding partners and staying with them on a long term basis
    Calvino Rabeni: Which should I start with ? :)
    Zen Arado: finding compatibility I'm trying to say
    Zen Arado: in my case I mean
    Zen Arado: maybe as you get older you grow more eccentric and unique
    Calvino Rabeni: Have you been seeking in that regard?
    Zen Arado: makes it harder to blend with another
    Zen Arado: I don't seek so much as stay open to possiblities
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght
    Zen Arado: anyway - I have to go
    Zaldaan Sirnah: bye me too
    Zen Arado: thanks for interesting conversation
    Zen Arado: bye
    Calvino Rabeni: So that's one thing that happens as people develop, but also maybe get more skillful at relatiing
    Calvino Rabeni: You're welcome Zen and Zal
    Calvino Rabeni: See you later, have a good day :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm off also, good night Zal
     

    Tag page (Edit tags)
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core