2010.06.13 13:00 - Education

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Darren Islar. The comments are by Darren Islar.


    Sorry for not being really readable, and for the italics (can't get rid of them). The first part has been striken, for the new person didn't want her name to be placed in the logs and it was all about 'hi'

    Pila Mulligan: hi 

    Darren Islar: hi pila

    Darren Islar: hi 

    Pila Mulligan: hi Darren

    Pila Mulligan: hi Wol, how are you?
    Wol Euler: tired, but otherwise OK

    Wol Euler: and you?

    Pila Mulligan: fine thanks, just mentioning my mornings trip to the farmers market

    Darren Islar: I had the same answer :)

Wol Euler: ah :)

Wol Euler: you too went to a farmers' market?

Pila Mulligan: yes, they have them each sunday

    Pila Mulligan: lots of good fresh products

    Pila Mulligan: hydroponics is getting popular here, too

    Darren Islar: only seeing now you have two-coloured eyes Wol :)
Wol Euler: really?

    Pila Mulligan: hi Arabella
Darren Islar: hi Ara
Wol Euler: hello ara

    Pila Mulligan: how are you?

    Pila Mulligan: well, Ara was just passing through it seems

    Darren Islar: I saw ara passing by..... but

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Bleu Oleander: he :)

    Wol Euler: hello bleu
    Bleu Oleander: *hi

    Darren Islar: hi Bleu
    Darren Islar: we're not interesting enough i guess

    Pila Mulligan: hi Bleu, how are you?

    Bleu Oleander: great, how is everyone?

    Wol Euler: radar says she's still out there, must be frozen or crashing

    Pila Mulligan: fine thanks Bleu
Darren Islar: I don't see her anymore, but was actually talking about xxxx

    Darren Islar: Ara crahsed I suppose

    Wol Euler: oh right, her too :)

    Pila Mulligan: wb Ara

    Wol Euler: hello ara, this looks more promising

    arabella Ella: Hiya good evening everyone!
Bleu Oleander: hi ara
Darren Islar: we saw you passing by :))
Pila Mulligan: hi Yak
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Wol Euler: hello yaku
Darren Islar: hi ara, yaku
arabella Ella: Hiya Yaku
Bleu Oleander: hi Yaku

    arabella Ella: And Yaku congrats on the amazing game which Germany just played :)
arabella Ella: 4-0
Pila Mulligan: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah
arabella Ella: against the Aussies
Wol Euler: wow
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i had nothing to do with that and didn´t even watch :)
arabella Ella: yes they came across as an amazingly strong team
arabella Ella: you did not watch? he he
Yakuzza Lethecus: oh, i heard friends talking about it during the game
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i was updated of the score
arabella Ella: of course
Yakuzza Lethecus: so do we interrupt a topic ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: did we ?
arabella Ella: oh apologies if I did :(
Darren Islar: no

    'Is education the solution to most of the world's ills?' (Arabella)
    Pila Mulligan: no worries :) nothing much was going on ... and waiting for a topic still
Darren Islar: anyone a topic (excluding football!!!!)
Darren Islar: ?
Wol Euler: :)
arabella Ella: well I particularly like one of the messages being communicated as part of the World Cup ... one Goal ... Education
Bleu Oleander: nice
arabella Ella: is education the solution to most of the world's ills?
Bleu Oleander: can't hurt
Wol Euler: lack of it is a proximate cause of many of them
Pila Mulligan: it could be a solution (maybe not the one though)
arabella Ella agrees but ... would education be another form of 'imperialism' in the sense of 'the West' imposing its values on the rest of the world?
Wol Euler: there is never only one solution to any problem worth solving :)
Darren Islar: is part of a solution I guess, but not really I'm afraid
Pila Mulligan: indoctrination can pass for education sometimes ara
Darren Islar: could be Ara, also education can be used in many ways
Darren Islar: it always boils down to motivation, what is it you want with it
Bleu Oleander: depends on how one defines education
Pila Mulligan: mono-culturalism may be a world ill itself
arabella Ella: yes Pila that would be my concern
arabella Ella: another type of colonialism
Darren Islar: yes, who is teaching who?
Bleu Oleander: education doesn't necessarily equate to mono-culturalism though
Bleu Oleander: can have education within cultures
Darren Islar: sure
arabella Ella: how would you define education Bleu?
Bleu Oleander: too many ways :)
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Pila Mulligan: hopefully it is not actually possible to actually succeed with imposing mono-culturalism -- but a lot of economic efforts seem to push in that direction
Pila Mulligan: - 1 actually :)
Darren Islar: I don't think education will solve problems, the way we look at each other can
Darren Islar: each other, the world, our surroundings etc.
Bleu Oleander: that is part of education Darren
Darren Islar: then everything can be a tool
Darren Islar: depends on how you use education
Darren Islar: it can be part of it yes
Pila Mulligan: teaching people to read and write would seem to be a good idea for the places where it is not yet preponderant
arabella Ella: one of the issues the way i see it is that education places too much emphasis on linguistic and numerical skills ... yet there are other skills which people with no formal education generally have which may be lost
Darren Islar: true, you give people a new tool to gain information
arabella Ella: and IMHO a bigger issue is sanitation, including provision of clean water
Bleu Oleander: education in the arts for example ara
Pila Mulligan: yes, ara -- teaching people to read and write in their own language is a better approach
Bleu Oleander: education is multi-faceted
Bleu Oleander: not just the three r's
Pila Mulligan: and community hygiene is essential as well
arabella Ella: what I mean is that there is always a percentage, around 10 percent if I am correct, of people who will never learn to read and write ... will they always remain a sort of 'underclass' ... scuse the expression?
Pila Mulligan: maybe there should be an effort to solve that issue, like solving malaria
Wol Euler: yes, probably true.
arabella Ella nods
arabella Ella: and another concern would be
Bleu Oleander: I don't think it's necessary to accept that there will always be 10 percent .... at least that can be a goal to do better
arabella Ella: most of successful education involves teaching those we consider to be 'bright' to 'mind-read' and give their teachers what they expect ... they learn 'to play the game'
Wol Euler: so we need to define "successful" now :)
arabella Ella: that would result in 'the educated' being dominant over the non-educated
arabella Ella: in the 'traditional' sense Wol ... what we are accustomed to at the moment
Wol Euler: an education that doesn't teach people to think for themselves has failed, no matter how many students graduate from it
Bleu Oleander: :)
Pila Mulligan: "85% of US juvenile inmates are functionally illiterate" -- wiki, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_illiteracy
Darren Islar: how much?
arabella Ella: yes I agree critical thinking and autonomous thinking are key ... but we also realise that those in power feel the need to 'control' the minds of the masses ... this being done by means of media, etc.
Wol Euler is shocked but not actually surprised
Pila Mulligan: yes, a surprising number
Darren Islar: no, me neither actually
Pila Mulligan: well, shocking :)
Wol Euler: :)
Bleu Oleander: keep the masses uneducated .... easier to control that way
Pila Mulligan: true
    Darren Islar: yes, but there is also the question if they want to be educated
Wol Euler: I think that a large part of the problem is that education traditionally happens in schools, and these alienate those who would otherwise have most to gain from them
arabella Ella: yes ... or education where kids learn to respond to bells ringing, teachers giving orders, etc.
Darren Islar: in the formal way that is
Darren Islar: (bells ringing :))
Pila Mulligan: there has been some success here taking alienated native school drop outs and giving them a culturally based edcation, with elders as mentors
arabella Ella: that sounds like a great move Pila
Wol Euler nods
Pila Mulligan: http://www.edithkanakaolefoundation.org/
Pila Mulligan: one example -- they teach native farming techniques along with the 3 R's
arabella Ella: sounds brilliant to me Pila
Pila Mulligan: and it works :)
arabella Ella: no doubt :)
Pila Mulligan: but there are more alienated kids in school than there are resources like this one

    Wol Euler: wb yaku
Pila Mulligan: hi mick
Darren Islar: hi mick
Wol Euler: hello mick
arabella Ella: Hiya Mick
Mickorod Renard: Hiya guys
Darren Islar: (I like that cute tail :))
Bleu Oleander: hi Mick

    arabella Ella: another thing about education
Bleu Oleander: http://www.ted.com/talks/sir_ken_rob...evolution.html
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick
Bleu Oleander: good TED talks by Ken Robinson on education and creativity
arabella Ella: as it stands it is more geared to getting kids to become subdued and obedient and that is more of an industrial way of doing things which is today outdated
Mickorod Renard: yes?,,am i to look now?
Wol Euler: oh yes, that was great
Wol Euler: as indeed Sir Ken says :)
Wol Euler: that's his talk in a sentence, ara :)
arabella Ella: yes I know about Sir Ken he is brilliant but he has now gone for doing talks on a circuit for very expensive fees as he is an excellent public speaker
Pila Mulligan: "Sir Ken Robinson makes the case for a radical shift from standardized schools to personalized learning -- creating conditions where kids' natural talents can flourish." :) from website
Mickorod Renard: nice
arabella Ella: and talk without action ... well ...
Bleu Oleander: his book "the Element" good too
arabella Ella nods
arabella Ella: the EU has nodded a lot in his direction ... but more action is necessary at grass roots level
Pila Mulligan: Motessori and Waldorf ans similar examples do well, but again they are quite limited in availability
Bleu Oleander: "Education's End" by Anthony Kronman .... defense of the humanities in edu
arabella Ella: oh yes Bleu ... too much emphasis is being given to science and technology as opposed to humanities
Wol Euler: ok, time for a polemic :) In my not-at-all humble opinion, the only reasonable purposes of education are: to teach people to get along with each other, and to teach them how to learn.
Bleu Oleander: necessary to help people define "a good life"
arabella Ella: while humanities are very valuable too but do not seem to offer similar pragmatic results as science does
Bleu Oleander: and how to have a good life, too
Pila Mulligan: teaching socializing and independence then Wol
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler: :)
Pila Mulligan: onigok*o anyone?
arabella Ella: why polemic Wol, I cannot but agree with you there
Wol Euler: great! please don't :)
Wol Euler: why not?
Pila Mulligan: so you will be independent
Wol Euler: oh, sorry, misread that :) never mind
arabella Ella: no worries
arabella Ella: no polemic at least not for me
arabella Ella: there is another public speaker Howard Gardner with his ideas on Multiple Intelligences
Bleu Oleander: he's great yes, ara
arabella Ella: yes he is i have met him at conferences many times
Bleu Oleander: five minds for the future
Mickorod Renard: whats all his stuff about?
Bleu Oleander: another great book
arabella Ella: and his wife whose name I cannot recall talks on gifted pupils
Mickorod Renard: in a nutshell?
arabella Ella: education Mick and what it should aim for
arabella Ella: (in a nutshell)
Mickorod Renard: ty
Pila Mulligan: "Gardner lists eight intelligences as linguistic, logic-mathematical, musical, spatial, bodily kinesthetic, naturalist, interpersonal and intrapersonal." wiki
Mickorod Renard: :)
Mickorod Renard: not one for me then?
arabella Ella: the only thing about Gardner is that his disciples have translated his ideas into an educational program which seems to miss out on some of his valuable ideas
Bleu Oleander: disciplinary mind, synthesizing mind, creating mind, respectful mind and ethical mind
arabella Ella nods
Mickorod Renard: yea,,they will do me Bleu

    Onigokko, Manbo, it is time you're coming back Maxine :))
    Pila Mulligan: onigokko
Pila Mulligan: hmm
Wol Euler: heheheh
Pila Mulligan: misspelled?
Pila Mulligan: oh, just delayed
Pila Mulligan: stop
Bleu Oleander: manbo anyone?
Wol Euler: http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2010/06/wee...avarathna.html
Mickorod Renard: yippeeeeee
Pila Mulligan: :) get some circulation going
Wol Euler: (entertainment)
Bleu Oleander: manbo!
Pila Mulligan: nice
Wol Euler: wooooo, multi-bleu
Bleu Oleander: my greek chorus
arabella Ella: i thought my eyes were playing tricks on me

    Darren Islar: need to go
arabella Ella: bye Darren
Wol Euler: bye darren, take care
Darren Islar: bye all :)
Pila Mulligan: bye Darren
Bleu Oleander: bye darren
Mickorod Renard: bye Darren

    Bleu Oleander: stop
Pila Mulligan: the multiple avi images is a nice trick
arabella Ella: another lovely outfit Wol wow!
Wol Euler: ty :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mickorod Renard: just practicing
Wol Euler: stop
Wol Euler: manbo!
Mickorod Renard: he he he
arabella Ella: he he

    Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone :)
Pila Mulligan: bye Yak
Wol Euler: 'nihgt yaku
Bleu Oleander: bye Yaku
arabella Ella: nite Yaku
    Mickorod Renard: bye Yaku
Bleu Oleander: bye everyone :)
Wol Euler: bye bleu, take care
arabella Ella: bye Bleu
Pila Mulligan: bue Bleu
Pila Mulligan: y*

    Wol Euler: stop
Wol Euler: stop
Mickorod Renard: bye bleu
Mickorod Renard: I am a bit slow i think

    What's for dinner?

    Mickorod Renard: eating dinner
arabella Ella: with your mambo Mick?
Wol Euler: heheh
Wol Euler: don't drip gravy in the keyboard
arabella Ella: what's for dinner then?
Pila Mulligan (just had lunch)
arabella Ella: bangers and mash?
Mickorod Renard: chips and a spicy chicken fillet
arabella Ella: he he
Mickorod Renard: no,,its fish
arabella Ella: ah
Mickorod Renard: just tasted it
Wol Euler: heheheheh
arabella Ella: fish that looks like spicy chicken?
Pila Mulligan: :)
    Mickorod Renard: an aquatic chicken
Pila Mulligan: are hydroponic vegetables popular in England - Germany - Malta?
arabella Ella: what are they Pila?
arabella Ella: never heard that word
Mickorod Renard: well,,some hydropnic things are
Wol Euler: maybe, but I think only as a hobby or for feeding oneself
Pila Mulligan: vegetables not grown in soil -- grown in a water meium
Mickorod Renard: mostly skunk weed
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler: yeah :)
arabella Ella: never heard of them here
Pila Mulligan: the method produces beautiful flawless lettuce, tomatoes, etc
arabella Ella: so i doubt whether they got here yet
Wol Euler: it does take an awful lot of fresh water, so it's possible that it wouldn'T work on Malta
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponics
arabella Ella: yes i guess so Wol
Mickorod Renard: he he
arabella Ella: we are always careful with our precious water ... it costs us lots
arabella Ella: (except for sea water)
Pila Mulligan: "a method of growing plants using mineral nutrient solutions, in water, without soil"
Pila Mulligan: they really do come out flawless and bug free
arabella Ella: maybe we could create some farms on pontoons at sea
arabella Ella: and de-salinate the sea water
Pila Mulligan: you can do small scale at home, too
Mickorod Renard: well,,sea weed is good for a fertilizer
arabella Ella: water is a precious resource here Pila
Mickorod Renard: u cud use condensation catch for the water
Pila Mulligan: some people use non-circulating systems
Pila Mulligan: a recent addition to the method
arabella Ella: we have de salination plants to turn sea water into tap water and it costs lots as we use energy and we import oil and coal for energy generation
Mickorod Renard: the latest idea's on desalination using nano tubes will be more energy efficient
arabella Ella: dont they also use energy Mick?
Mickorod Renard: they do,,but much less
arabella Ella: ah
arabella Ella: great
Mickorod Renard: u have sun energy resource too
arabella Ella: yes but not used enough
arabella Ella: altho lots of new sun energy plants have been installed on roofs of government buildings
Mickorod Renard: it cud be incorporated in a nano tube system
arabella Ella: ah ha
Mickorod Renard: when the need is grave enough in the western world,,it will happen
arabella Ella: oh yes
Pila Mulligan: there are some recent advances in photovoltacis too
arabella Ella: and apparently the EU has lots of targets for using clean energy sources
Mickorod Renard: yes,,this is good point
Mickorod Renard: but I think too,,that some delay may be purposefull,,to get people to use less before
arabella Ella: the thing is though that most EU targets are not reached
arabella Ella: like re-cycling
Pila Mulligan: I like the film that can be placed on windows that shades UV light and also generates electricity
arabella Ella: but it helps
Mickorod Renard: many countries are very complacent in the waste of water
Mickorod Renard: that sounds great pila

    arabella Ella: gtg good night all!
Pila Mulligan: bye ara
Wol Euler: bye ara, take care
Mickorod Renard: nite nite Ara
Mickorod Renard: I will haed home too guys,,I have very busy day tomorrow
Wol Euler: 'night mick, sleep well

    Pila Mulligan: bye Mick (so much for a moment's symmetry)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mickorod Renard: nite nite guys,,yes,,sorry

    in memoriam for the fired Lindens and a new webbrowser and open grids, a really geeky ending of the day with someone called Threedee :)

    Wol Euler: I was thinking of going to the memorial for the fired Lindens
Mickorod Renard: i only just realized
Pila Mulligan: is that a rock group?
Mickorod Renard: he he
Wol Euler: no, a sad fact
Wol Euler: Linden Labs have sacked 100 people, 30% of the staff
Mickorod Renard: ok,,be well every one
Wol Euler: with more layoffs to follow in the next weeks
Pila Mulligan: ahh, even they take the economic bite then
Wol Euler: Codebastard Redgrave made a memorial to them in her sim.
Wol Euler: http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2010/06/linden-memorial.html
Pila Mulligan: someone said Linden s working on a webbased browser viewer
Wol Euler: yep
Wol Euler: they still haven't figured out what SL is :)
    Wol Euler: they are looking for the "killer app", the use of SL that will make it irresistible to very rich companies
Wol Euler: which is nonsense
Wol Euler: because it's about people, not companies.
Wol Euler: the killer app of SL **is** SL itself
Pila Mulligan: yes
Wol Euler: it's US
Wol Euler: the residents
Pila Mulligan: the web browser viewer would be a killer app
Wol Euler: our community, our conversations
Pila Mulligan: imagine a shakespeare website that allows you to drop in on avis acting out hamlet
Wol Euler: perhaps that is what viewer2 should have been.
Pila Mulligan: I think it would increase the use of virtual worlds substantially -- eliminating the steep part of the learning curve
Wol Euler: but I can't help thinking that it is wrongheaded.
Pila Mulligan: I agree that the company driven agenda is wrong
Wol Euler: somebody who is not willing to invest the time to learn the current viewer software, is IMHO never in hell going to spend enough time inworld to become part of the community
Pila Mulligan: but there will be incentives to get them started at least
Wol Euler: they will spend more time inworld before dropping out, than those who get frustrated on Orientation Island currently do,sure
Wol Euler: but people stay in SL because they make friends here.
Pila Mulligan: yes
Wol Euler: well, is that actually exclusive?
Wol Euler: perhaps the browser based crew would talk to us too
Wol Euler: I'd be really curious to see that working, to see whether the 3d graphics and textures and physics would work in a browser

    Pila Mulligan: hi Threedee
Wol Euler: wow, hello Threedee
Wol Euler: I haven'T seen you in ages.

    Pila Mulligan: how are you?
Threedee Shepherd: I have been busy with our Open sim
Wol Euler: ah :)
Pila Mulligan: Wol just wondered how 3d graphics and textures and physics would work when integrated in a web browser
Pila Mulligan: seems to me a nice idea in practice, if possible
Threedee Shepherd: what exactly do you mean by 3d graphics
Wol Euler: well, us.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler: we were talking about Linden Labs' attempts to make a web-browser interface to SL
Threedee Shepherd: OK, that is the direction the both LL and others are going, using a single integrated browser
Threedee Shepherd: It is not clear that initial quality will be as good as a dedicated viewer
Pila Mulligan: my hoped for example to Wol a moment ago was a Shakespeare website with links to avis preforming plays
Pila Mulligan: so many possibilities
Threedee Shepherd: That will happen, Pila
Pila Mulligan: I'm lookig forward to it :)
Pila Mulligan: is the virtual world destined to be part of the general use internet some day?
Threedee Shepherd: However, I expect and suspect there is a "shakeout"going on in regards to VirtualWorlds that will lead to a time of mild chaos, before things sort out--somewhat like the old browser wars
Pila Mulligan: ahh, the Netscape era
Threedee Shepherd: Yes WVs and 2D web will be integrated, although there are interesting financial issues and property right issues involved
Wol Euler: indeed
Pila Mulligan: Wol said someone has made a SL memorial for the fired Lindens, speaking of shakeout
Wol Euler: http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2010/06/linden-memorial.html
Threedee Shepherd: The problem is one of "making money" for the providers
Pila Mulligan: maybe when universities are the providers it will have a different dynamic
Pila Mulligan: optimism
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, i am following the changes in Linden very closely. It appear that the main benefit will be more business for us folks in Open sim
Wol Euler: I'm afraid that you are right
Pila Mulligan: prepping for the time of mild chaos?
Threedee Shepherd: A key issue in OpenSim is the so-called hypergrid. People want avatars to be able to go from one OS grid to another, but there is NO WAY yet to put secure permissions on intellectual property.
Wol Euler nods
Wol Euler: nor is there AFAIK any kind of identity transfer/management between OSes
Pila Mulligan: I just spent six months kind of helping a couple of geeks make a fairly complete opensim grid, all the needful stuff, super low prices -- no one came :)
Wol Euler: i.e. nothing at all prevents me from going to every opensim and registering an av called "Pila Mulligan" on them.
Threedee Shepherd: Also, every OpenSim has its own asset server, so assets can't move with an Avatar from grid to grid
Pila Mulligan: except I've already done it, Wol :)
Wol Euler: yes, but (a) you had to, and (b) IN THEORY any old jerk could have beaten you to it
Pila Mulligan: that was why they made their server really full of assets, hoping to make it easy -- still no luck
Pila Mulligan: true
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, you can register any name anywhere, but all those Pilas have different inventories
Wol Euler: that too.
Wol Euler: and my friends won't be there.
Pila Mulligan: and often come up without the inventory
Pila Mulligan: even after a few months
Pila Mulligan: well, we see the problem, does anyone see a solution
Pila Mulligan: ?
Threedee Shepherd: Well, I think the evolution is going this way: SL has stabilized at about 100,000 users per month, which is not really that many, compared to social network sites like Facebook. Not many new folks seem to find interesting stuff in SL
Wol Euler: the solution is for LL to realize that they have a huge asset that no other online world has (us) and stop trying to be something they cannot be
Threedee Shepherd: so, I think LL will move to integrating SL with a social network site and have an entirely different customer base.
Wol Euler: that is what I fear
Pila Mulligan: hmm
Threedee Shepherd: Meanwhile those in education and business will have their own OpenSim sites, associated with their general WWW site
Pila Mulligan: how about eventual integration of all those grids?
Threedee Shepherd: people will go to such places for the same reason they go to web sites
Wol Euler: maybe it really does have to be like the web, that people visit SL anonymously
Wol Euler: visible as really ugly default avs with randomly assigned numbers for names
Threedee Shepherd: There will be some kind of integration. However, at the outset it will be more limited than what any one site has to offer
Wol Euler: if you want a nice name and a pretty av, you need to register
Wol Euler: because if the people visiting SL through a web browser have to choose a name and a default appearance and all that, then most of them will not bother
Pila Mulligan: someone needs to create open source homemade avi stuff -- make it at home and take it anywhere
Threedee Shepherd: Here is another point: LL bought XStreet for a reason.
Threedee Shepherd: They want to incorporate 3D into social network sites they control and sell XStreet like assets--that is where the money is
Threedee Shepherd: Over a million L$ change hands in SL daily, and LL gets none of it. they want to change that
Threedee Shepherd: actually its US$, I meant
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Pila Mulligan: Wol suggests they are chasing the wrong carrot -- I'd agree
Wol Euler: "barking up the wrong dead horse"
Pila Mulligan: of course
Threedee Shepherd: I think not. OpenSim is making having a business, museum, education site much less costly than SL.
Wol Euler: agreed
Wol Euler: *if* you can get people to visit it
Pila Mulligan: yes, but is it pointed in the right direction for the long run?
Wol Euler: which is the advantage that SL has
Threedee Shepherd: well, think of this. Right now, people go to Smithsonian websites to see exhibits. they will go even more when those exhibits are in 3d
Pila Mulligan: opensim is travelling on trachs laid down by Linden -- it is a closed course because of just the things we have mentioned earlier
Pila Mulligan: tracks*
Threedee Shepherd: I think not.
Wol Euler: agreed, as long as either (1) they can use their pre.existing SL type avatar, with its name and appearance
Wol Euler: or (2) they don't need to register at all
Pila Mulligan: maybe there needs to be a fresh start with 3d that has more potential to become ubiquitously web like
Threedee Shepherd: There will be ways to not register at all. It will depend on whether the visitor can be a contributer or just a visitor-looker
Wol Euler: right
Wol Euler: perhaps the wikipedia is a model for that
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Wol Euler: anyone can read, and nobody knows they are doing it
Wol Euler: but if you want to contribute and be known, you need to register
Threedee Shepherd: You can set up anonymous avs for visitors with few abilities other than to look
Wol Euler nods
Pila Mulligan ponders gas fueled reciprocating internal combustion engine as metaphor
Wol Euler: they'll have to, I think that is the only way to get "passing trade"
Wol Euler: I've been wondering as we spoke, why it is that the learning curve of SL is felt to be a barrier
Threedee Shepherd: Here is how I am approaching it. Any given client has a particular and specific need. I can address that need now, and let the future become
Wol Euler: but the enormously steep and long learning curves of games like Dragon Age: Origins are not.
Threedee Shepherd: it relates to the functionality of making things that extends the learning curve.
Pila Mulligan: potential audience distinctions Wol -- gamers expect it
Wol Euler: true
Pila Mulligan: facebookers don;t expect it
Threedee Shepherd: If you build a 3D site that has clearly-defined and constrained activities, then a very short learning curve can be achieved. We have done that for one client
Wol Euler: do we the residents, the three of us right here, want facebookers hanging around the playgoda?
Pila Mulligan: and easing people in seems prudent 3D
Pila Mulligan: are they here yet?
Threedee Shepherd: not yet here
Wol Euler: yes, threedee, from the standpoint of OpenSims, that is absolutely true
Pila Mulligan: I have yet to do any facebooking myself
Wol Euler: you haven't missed much IMHO
Pila Mulligan: :)
Threedee Shepherd: the issue is getting "new members". People do seem to find PAB, unless that has slackened off
Pila Mulligan: it seems to still happen
Wol Euler: it's definitely slower than it was last summer
Threedee Shepherd: I am in facebook but only to get messages from folks who don't seem to want to e-mail
Wol Euler: heheh
    Pila Mulligan: by the way, Threedee, that experiment I mentioned involved a dedicated server we found that worked quite well running a grid - for $29.95 a month
Pila Mulligan: http://corenetworks.net/dedicated/?whtref=120x60 -- we paid some upfront to get a ram upgrade
Threedee Shepherd: I think, to sum up, that LL and most observers seem to see the main value of SL as social interactions. Yet social network sites have orders of magnitude more users. thus, they want to morph into that market and format, retaining some of the SL functionality. For "legitimate" uses, various forms of OpenSim will prevail.
Threedee Shepherd: I rent a server for $190/month that can support a minimum of 16 grids, each with multipoole regions.
Pila Mulligan: what do you see as the time frame for opensim to become readily used by SL folks?
Wol Euler shivers when you say "some of the SL functionality"
Pila Mulligan: that's a nice economy of scale on your server Threedee
Threedee Shepherd: Well, there is about to be a quantum jump in OS software within the next six weeks. How that changes things will depend on the details. I am very optimistic (and am investing resources).
Pila Mulligan: are you referring to the LL open source base?
Pila Mulligan: or something new?
Threedee Shepherd: Right now there are three things needed by OS, Improved voice, slightly more stable physics engine, and web on a prim. All are being worked on.
Pila Mulligan continues to ponder gas fueled reciprocating internal combustion engine as metaphor
Pila Mulligan: what is web on a prim, please?
Threedee Shepherd: The LL open source client has been fully mined. it is the open source server side of OpenSim that is advancing
Wol Euler: the way to deliver advertising in SL :)
Pila Mulligan: ah, thanks
Wol Euler: :)))
Wol Euler: basically being able to put all content of any website on any prim in SL
Threedee Shepherd: The new 2.0 Viewer for SL, allows you to place any www site, interactively on a single prim screen, with trivial effort
Wol Euler: a feature of the viewer2
Threedee Shepherd: It required some changes on the LL server side, as well, which is what OS is working on
Threedee Shepherd: OpenSim open source is completely separate from LL/SL code.
Threedee Shepherd: that is, the server side
Pila Mulligan: Q (one of the geeks in our opens project I mentioned) said he thinks the opensim concentration on development is keeping new users out, as there is too fast a turnover of unstable technology
Threedee Shepherd: the clients, such as Hippo, Emerald, etc, are based on LL open source client side code, and are diverging in many directions
Pila Mulligan: open sim pops you back to Lucy regularly
Threedee Shepherd: OpenSim claims it is ALPHA, not yet production ready. Yet it is attractive enough that many are pushing the envelope--including me. I am confident that over the next 12 months very stable versions will appear and then be improved incrementally. It is actually very close, now
Threedee Shepherd: You mean Ruth
Pila Mulligan: yes, I agree, eventually it will stabilize
Pila Mulligan: yes, Ruth -- sorry
Wol Euler grins. I was wondering.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler: Lucy = Australopithecus?
Pila Mulligan is no geek
Wol Euler: that would be a cool av.
Pila Mulligan: the mothe rof all avis
Wol Euler: didn't Dr. Leakey name one of his earliest skeletons "Lucy"?
Threedee Shepherd: \The current version of OS that is stable is 0.6.9 release. I use it successfully. Not every OS you find on the web has upgraded to it. ).7.0 will be a big deal, and is with 6-weeks of release
Pila Mulligan: sounds familair
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, Lucy is one of the prototype early skeletons
Wol Euler smiles.

    Wol Euler: my dears, I must go, it's after midnight
Wol Euler: goodnight, take care, be open and simful :)
Threedee Shepherd: A key fact is that Intel is also working on OpenSim development, which will be important to achieving usability. We are already experimenting with a new Intel interface
Pila Mulligan: nice to see you WOl
Threedee Shepherd: g'nite Wol
Pila Mulligan: I should do some yard stuff, too
Wol Euler: :)
Pila Mulligan: nice to see you also Threedee -- long time
Wol Euler: bye for now
Threedee Shepherd: bye Pila. nice to see you both.
Pila Mulligan: bye for now Wol
Pila Mulligan: bye Threedee, see you opensim someday :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Pila, send me an e-mail to remind me of your address, and I'll invite you to our newest OS soon
Threedee Shepherd: mark@3demb.com
Threedee Shepherd: bye for now
Pila Mulligan: ok, thanks
Pila Mulligan: what browser to you use there?
Threedee Shepherd: Hippo
Pila Mulligan: I've started using emerald
Pila Mulligan: I have Hippo also --ok
Threedee Shepherd: emerald is a DEAD END
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: I'll use hippo :)
Threedee Shepherd: That is what the folks who "know" say
Threedee Shepherd: :)
Pila Mulligan: i had heard the same also, before
Threedee Shepherd: tata
    Mulligan: well, see you next time -- aloha `oe


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