2010.06.13 19:00 - The Body In Question, Pt. 1

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    After visiting a remote asteroid, a mysterious spacecraft crash-lands, hitting Earth during a dark moon that creates a strong gravitational pull causing the lowest tides of the year and exposing mysterious ocean life forms that are rarely uncovered.  The tidal forces appear to have an unpredictable effect on the PlayAsBeing pool, and the people nearby throw out a variety of heavy objects, which sink to the bottom of the pool.  The occupants of the Pavilion are likewise held within a nearby orbit and are unable to leave the Pavilion.  As a consequence, the 19:00 session lasts 34% of a planetary revolution and overlaps with the next time slot.

    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Zaldaan
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Calvino, hello. :)
    Calvino Rabeni: How was your weekend?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Nothing too exciting. :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: "Sunday's fiery return to Earth wrapped up a mission lasting seven years and traversing more than a billion miles across the solar system"
    Zaldaan Sirnah: http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n1006/13hayabusaentry/
    Calvino Rabeni: The spacecraft was stymied by a major fuel leak, the failure of two-thirds of its attitude control system, the loss of three of its four ion engines, and trouble with its primary battery. The problems put the mission in doubt many times,
    Calvino Rabeni: .. I hate it when that happens :)
    Calvino Rabeni: "We have been quite lucky in succeeding and continuing this mission," Kawaguchi said last week. "I personally am very proud of the teams, comprised of the engineers and the scientists who continue to do these activities." "We've just been lucky."
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I was just about to paste that part -- about the failed systems. :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Luck favors the prepared, I suppose
    Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes my attitude control system is two thirds out of control :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Mine seems to work well, I just don't use it enough, at home in front of the computer.
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, maybe it wasn't designed to function well in such an environment
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: Or the other way around -the design of the computing systems might not present an optimal match to human sensibilities of attitude control ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Myna
    Myna Maven: Hi Calvino, Zaldaan, Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: Welcom, Mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hello, all - sorry for lateness. THe light so late confuses me.!
    Zaldaan Sirnah: my text is on the left
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I could fall for that too Mitzi
    Myna Maven: Your text is on the left?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: This way you are all in my view still.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: hmmm ... where should I sit? Is it the custom for people to sit spaced evenly around the foundain?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I wouldn't mind if you stood in the water!
    Myna Maven: Things are taking quite a while to rez for me.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ha! I've thought of that before! More like sit and splash in the water
    Myna Maven: What was the discussion? Sorry, too, that I am late.
    Calvino Rabeni: Myna, nothing much yet
    Calvino Rabeni: Are there any suggestions...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino, tongiht you appear as a "lumnious egg" - shades of Carlos Castenada ... a topic that came up a week ago or so
    Calvino Rabeni: and I'm wondering, where would those come from :)?
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: About the luminous egg, do I look that way to you, Myna, or Zal?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, Calvino, you had the topic of help ... which I responded to on the web ... my next thought about that is how we are initially hoping to get an easy answer when we ask for help and not have to work too hard.
    Myna Maven: No. Can see you fine.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Which part of our bodies would be a luminous egg?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: according to Casteneda?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: in reality
    --BELL--
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm going to log out and in again, so I can see Calvino better (that fixed it last time)
    Myna Maven: I've seen a few references to Casteneda in the discussions over the past couple of days (that I've been around again). Is he a popular topic of discussion recently?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not that I'm aware of - the last one I remember, considered the ways his dramatic literature might have been a help or a hindrance to bringing the ideas of shamanism into the western culture
    Myna Maven: OK. Much food for thought there.
    Calvino Rabeni: Could take a while to digest :)
    Myna Maven: Here is Mitzi, again. Or I thought I saw her.
    Calvino Rabeni: WB mizi (wherever you are :)
    Calvino Rabeni: So, there's a luminous egg in the pool, and castaneda, and "Help"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thanks ... now BOTH Calvino and Yyna are luminous eggs! Only Zaldaan appears to be "Real."
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: That's OK. I like luminous eggs.
    Myna Maven: I upgraded to Second Life 2 in the past couple of days but I'm finding it is actually slower for me. I think. What is the experience of others with it?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: But I miss Calvino's expressive eye animation though.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Have not upgraded.
    Calvino Rabeni: My impression was faster, for 2.
    Myna Maven: Okay.
    Calvino Rabeni: Would anyone else like to throw another item into the Pool?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: "everything you know is wrong"
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm going to throw the I Ching into the Pool along with that other stuff
    Myna Maven: I was just going to ask about the pitching of items into the pool....
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, when people come to the pavilion, they are thinking things, and have interests
    Calvino Rabeni: sometimes they throw them into the pool, wheree they may mix
    Myna Maven: What is that about? Oh, so people then pitch these things into the pool.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I've been contemplating the sensation of dignity lately. So, "dignity".
    Myna Maven: I see.
    Calvino Rabeni: it could be like soup cooking, or a cauldron
    Calvino Rabeni: Dignity, that's good
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: BTW, enjoyed your cavorting in the pool, Zaldaan. Very dignified.
    Calvino Rabeni: So my thought is, there's a dignity to consider relating to what one does, as if one were a luminous egg, instead of the very common ways we know, which are all wrong
    --BELL--
    Myna Maven: Can you tell me what you feel it is to be a luminous egg?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hmm. A lumnious egg has no hands or head, can't DO much! Too dignified perhaps for this earthly place ...
    Myna Maven: I just don't want to make assumptions.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I just wrote something up pertaining to dignity
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: please share!
    Calvino Rabeni: What I'm wondering is, whether the shamans that invented the I Ching, were able to "see" people as luminous eggs
    Calvino Rabeni: Mitzi, I think those eggs have energy tendrils allowing them to interact with their surroundings
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: .Tendrils! ... ooh, kinda creepy ... like aliens.'
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I'll need to put it on a webpage
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Is it that long? Zaldaan?
    Calvino Rabeni: DO you do that in real time Zaldaan?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Can I protect it in a notecard from copy/paste?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes you can do that, good idea
    Myna Maven: You are worried about someone taking it?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not sure how - a setting for not-copy not-transfer
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: The I ching writers ... I imagine them as being very pragmatic individuals, very sharp observers of human activity ... whether that tends to enhance or preclude luminos-egg-viewing i wouldn't know ...
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Well, I was thinking I should mail it to our Sufi master for his review
    Myna Maven: If you are thinking of putting it up on a webpage, if you're worried about people taking what you've written, there's not much to do about protecting it.
    Myna Maven: I know that's not what you were asking about. You were wondering about here.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, you can slow it down, but not protect from cut/paste of the text
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Zaldaar, had you already written something about dignity, and then the topic came up, or did you write it just now after the topic was mentioned?> (just curiouss)
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, I want to throw in that pool, a magazine called Somatics, started by a philosopher that Mitzi and I know
    Calvino Rabeni: Are you departing, Myna?
    --BELL--
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I wrote it last night
    Zaldaan Sirnah: This morning
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye :) Hope to see you again Myna
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I was preparing it in a notecard
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Zaldaan - what Sufi order do you belong to? I have some friends who are Nur Ashki Jerrahi order, here in Boulder.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: That's a kind of cosmic concidence then isn't it ... that you were writing about dignity and then I threw that word into the pool.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Think I'll sit over there with you two now. Maybe Calvino will rez more quickly from there.
    Calvino Rabeni: So if you keep up on Somatics, you might know, has the subject of shamanism or other "ways of knowing" come up in that magazine, or is it mostly "hands on" rather than conceptual?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I glance over it but don't usually read it though.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It'spretty pragmatic body oriented,w ith a few more unusual tpics thrown in
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'll go get a couple of recent issues and review the topics for you. Be right back.
    Calvino Rabeni: :) LOL - the digital tail wags the dog :) TY Mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Dang, I can't find he most recent ones. I had them in a pile to read a series of six articles that together would comprise a book, "Somatic Psychology". I put them ssomehwhere, can't find them right now. Sigh.
    Calvino Rabeni: NP, thanks - I'm decades behind :)
    --BELL--
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I do plan to read the Somatic Psychology series - I felt it was really relevant to some stuff I was contemplatingI felt that the soamtic psychology material was very relevant to *something* I was contempalting last winter,
    Calvino Rabeni: I threw it in the pool thinking that might be the case, and it's relevant to a current contemplation of mine too :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I reviewed this now. Can I copyright this Zaldaan Sirnah?
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe U'd care to share that last winter's topic, Mitzi?
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't know copyright laws, but would guess it can work that way for a pseudonym
    Zaldaan Sirnah: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl101.html
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Yeah, apparently you can.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino, I'm trying to recall ... I go through so many evolutions of interest all the time ...!
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Mitzi, did you want a copy of this?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, please, very interested.
    Zaldaan Sirnah sips his freshly squeezed orange, strawberry, banana juice
    Calvino Rabeni: If you please, Zal :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thank you Zaldaan, I am going to read it now ...
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Lucinda :)
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi LL whispers...
    Calvino Rabeni: We've been throwing heavy objects into the pool, before you arrived :)
    Lucinda Lavender: hard to believe
    Lucinda Lavender: but interesting
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Zaldaan, I read your essay. Here's what I hear as the key proposition: Individuals, countries, companies etc. all should behavie less selfishly in order to help everyone on the planet. To accomplish this, "those who are knowledgeable in the topic of focus assist by providing their knowledge, philosophy, and methods to the subject who needs to change." Do you feel this is the main message?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I agree with all you say, but I feel that the way forward is filled with obstacles, mostly in terms of the ways in which individual humans have control over their own attention, words, and actions - that this control is much less than is commonly believed.
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for sharing that Zal
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... to move forward in this way successfully, we must study in minute detail our own and other's pschology and nature, and proceed with skillful, baby steps to discover what is possible here.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Everyone in theory would like to learn focus etc.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: 'But, many of them think they have this already. Many of them, "good" people who feel they are working diligently to improve the planet!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So, unless the individual themselves is humble and clear enough to recognize their own need, they will not reach for these skills.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Because all these things are psychologically and emotionally difficult, as well as just plain inherently difficult.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: A friend of mine joined the Peace Corps. In their training, they were warned to keep their expctations of accomplishing ANYTHING every low.
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni pours a little red wine into the pool
    Zaldaan Sirnah: That's the reason for the extra expressions/explanations -- although I believe they are too distant from each other (the explanatory portions and the advisory portions) ..
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: That they probably would not be able to accomplish anything at all that they envisioned.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: But, if they established a positive connection with a few people, that would be a really good thing and they should be very pleased.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: That is, as I was writing explanation of the course of humans, my thoughts/writing diverged, and ultimately converged again, but I do not believe the two are readily consciously related.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Red wine! Are we being too serious Calvino!
    Zaldaan Sirnah: But maybe that's it -- to sift and funnel the thoughts down to just the actions to take which people are unaware of.
    Lucinda Lavender: I will not be staying...but wanted to visit for a moment....
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Lucinda! Very nice to see you again.
    Lucinda Lavender: nice to see you also
    Lucinda Lavender: It has been a sunny day for me full of food
    Lucinda Lavender: and now a glass of wine
    Calvino Rabeni: A butterfly flew into the Pool
    --BELL--
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Here in Colorado it is freezing cold and has been raining for 3 solid days. We have your Seattle weather it seems.
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Do you do yoga alone?
    Lucinda Lavender: me?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: yeah
    Lucinda Lavender: No I do it with others in a class
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I have problems accomplishing physical exercise all alone
    Lucinda Lavender: yes me too
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Me too. I like doing it with others.
    Lucinda Lavender: I go to gentle yoga class and have stayed there for 3 years
    Lucinda Lavender: I can feel my body as stronger tho
    Lucinda Lavender: my teacher there is a physical therapist
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Yeah when in neglect, with just a couple days of deliberate focussed exercise, stretching, and strength training, I notice the increase in .. physique?
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni notes that "Help" came back out of the Pool
    Lucinda Lavender: years of lifting children and things has melted away
    Lucinda Lavender: what kind of help Cal?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Help
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Help with discipline of exercise, for instance
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: One thing I find helpful, is to use a "journey" archetype
    Calvino Rabeni: thus, I make up, that I have some place to go
    Calvino Rabeni: It helps if it is literal like, across a certain real mountain
    Calvino Rabeni: but otherwise imagination can be an aid
    Calvino Rabeni: Or like if one has long distance running to do
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: it's necessary to do lots of imagination things for motivaiton and help
    Lucinda Lavender: nodding
    Lucinda Lavender: gives the experience a certain intensity
    Zaldaan Sirnah: swimming in a pool helped?
    Lucinda Lavender: thinking now about water and love
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: how water and love are similar ...? perhaps?
    Lucinda Lavender: not sure...I think a song came into my mind...called Water of Love
    Lucinda Lavender: Tides were super low today
    Lucinda Lavender: lowest of the year
    Lucinda Lavender: and I heard that...we weigh less at the new moon
    Lucinda Lavender: tides working on the body
    Lucinda Lavender: how I am not sure
    Lucinda Lavender: it was on the newof NPR
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Even if we eat more during the waning? :)
    Lucinda Lavender: news
    Lucinda Lavender: um not sure
    Lucinda Lavender: totally new idea for me
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: The moon!
    Calvino Rabeni: The moon is in the Pool now :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Did you know it actually came out of the earth? It's an unusual combo - the earth and the moon.
    Lucinda Lavender: Yesterday as I woke with the image of bathing my muddy son...he called and told me just how he had been very dirty with his work as landscaper.
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.psi.edu/projects/moon/moon.html
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Well, with more mass "below" you you will weigh more. It must be the new moon, up in the sky, which means the sun and moon are both up, pulling upwards on us.
    Lucinda Lavender: No I did not know that! Super interesting...Mitzi.Zal yes I think so
    Zaldaan Sirnah: However, with tides -- the tides swell on the side of the earth towards the moon AND the very opposite side
    Lucinda Lavender: Tomorrow there will be high tides
    Lucinda Lavender: do you think there is some kind of momentum that gets going?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: actually there is a solar tide too I believe, but less noticable. When the sun and moon are in alignment, and on one side of the earth, you have the greatest tides.
    Lucinda Lavender: yes...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: High tide
    Lucinda Lavender: now there is a tide to the pool
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: so most of the time you have a double-tide going on, which would actually be a quadrupal-tide -- the solar, lunar peaks and the twice-a-day from the far/near swells
    Lucinda Lavender: with the low tide there are many creatures exposed
    Calvino Rabeni: And if it happens during earth
    Calvino Rabeni: perigee, it may add another bit of power
    Lucinda Lavender: If the earth an moon were once one...that is aninteresting idea
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Like mother and child - they have an affinity chemical composition wise.
    Lucinda Lavender: It suggests that we were also once one to me
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, as you were once Stardust, as they say
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Yeah, it's an old theory -- that the earth was smacked really hard and split into the moon and earth.
    Calvino Rabeni: Tht could have happened during a state where the earth wasn't yet fully cohered and solid
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: All the light material on the outside was splrted out into space ... then coalesced into the moon ...?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: it's pretty big -- I don't think it was so much lighter/heavier that was the issue.
    Calvino Rabeni: The moon does not have an iron core, and little magnetism
    Zaldaan Sirnah: but it would make sense that a lot of heavy material fell back down.
    Lucinda Lavender: well on this interesting note I will move into my next stuff to do. Look forward to listening in from the log.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: but that heavier material, in proximity to the other mass up there, would have readily coalesced into the moon anyway
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bye then, CInda.
    Lucinda Lavender: Bye Mitzi,Zaldaan,Cal.
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Cinda
    Zaldaan Sirnah: but the gravitational effects on humans...
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Bye Lucinda
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So Zaldaan, I wanted to return to your essay. Why did you write it?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: "The lunar force is actually a very weak tidal force. A mother holding her child "will exert 12 million times as much tidal force on her child as the moon" (Kelly et al., 1996: 25)"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It shows a lot of thought, and concern for the condition of the world. I feel you really want to help.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that idea about making ethical choices stands out, in that essay
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I don't know why I wrote it -- but the feeling you picked up about me is true.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ha! Just as I suspected ... a very weak force. ... I wasn't going to say anything ,... but since you brought it up!
    Zaldaan Sirnah: it doesn't mean we're not sensitive to it though
    Zaldaan Sirnah: it correlates to light (full/new) etc. so many biological rhythms are likely all in sync
    Calvino Rabeni: we are sensitive to things we need ... that is perception
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: that would be quite the extreme sensitivity
    Calvino Rabeni: if it is not useful to know, then there is no mechanism of perception
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: In other words, the fact of being sensitive to the moon, if it is true, implies it plays some role in how we operate, to which we evolved the ability to perceive it
    Calvino Rabeni: The moon is not universal - there are possibly / likely intelligent entities on other planets, that don't have a large Moon
    Calvino Rabeni: would they have a different quality and nature, based on that coincidence?
    Calvino Rabeni: (purely speculatively, of course)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: on phone
    Calvino Rabeni: They would not use Sun and Moon as symbols of gender
    Calvino Rabeni: assuming they had gender, which is another topic
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: if they had two moons, maybe they would have 3 genders!
    Calvino Rabeni: Or they would be more gay-tolerant perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: The two moons are lovers
    Calvino Rabeni: although clearly the same type of entity
    Calvino Rabeni: Or, maybe brothers... who would compete and play games
    Calvino Rabeni: that is, if the link is purely symbolic
    Calvino Rabeni: if it is biological, then maybe more genders ... but it is hard to envision such a link
    Calvino Rabeni: Mitzi, what do you recall about the notion of somatic archetypes and patterns, from the body of knowledge represented by Somatics magazine and its practitioners?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I must say that I'm relatively ignorant about that body of knowledge ....
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... I have my own subset, influenced more by my own personal interests in the realm of body awareness
    Calvino Rabeni: I was doing some reading / thinking about that recently
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: as to archetypes, I do subscribe to the validity of the ectomorphic / endormorphic / mesomorphic categorization ... with my own twist on that. Sheldon
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I more see ectomorphic / mesomorphic as a dichotomy - balance, with endomorphic as a separate scale.
    Calvino Rabeni: What I mean by somatic archetypes, are functional realities that somatic practitioners must be aware of as fundamental
    Calvino Rabeni: and because form follows function, they are manifest in our physical "design"
    Calvino Rabeni: For example, the design is directional in at least two dimensions
    Calvino Rabeni: we don't want to say, space is directional, but rather, the embodied self is directional
    Calvino Rabeni: The primary axis is up and down, followed by the secondary axis of forward and backward
    Calvino Rabeni: the third axis is much less active
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh, I see ... I wouldn't have used the word "archetype" for that myself
    Calvino Rabeni: BUT interestingly, the third axis is used for plenty of symbolic purposes
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: A fundamental somatic pattern that underlies body design, the structure of symbolic systems, language, experience ... maybe there is a better word for those essential structures than "archetype" ? I'd like to have a name for it that doesn't mislead people.
    Calvino Rabeni: As essential as this is, it it not well-languaged
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: There are the eight directions as expressed in Martial Arts? Or is it in native American perspective? - adding "inside" and "outside"
    Calvino Rabeni: When you have design forces of such very different strentghs, they tend to segment the conceptual world into areas that are not seen as at all related
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Are you wanting to explore even additional aspects>
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, well Inside and Outside are an expression of the somatic structure of a Cell and its enclosing membrane
    Calvino Rabeni: Or on another scale, the Earth and its surface, center, and distant reaches
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, that's very significant. Self and Other would be one main way that's used psychologically.
    Calvino Rabeni: right
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So, how about attributes such as attractive, repulsive; slippery, gritty; magnetic or non-magentic; electrically charged or not; smooth or scratchy; shiny or matte; lots of dimensions I can think of
    Calvino Rabeni: It would be hard to make a case based on the style of historiography, that the I Ching is based on shamanic or phenomenological perception of those structures ... but they are certainly present there in the commentary
    Calvino Rabeni: Nice set of qualities,Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, warn/cold, sticky, vibrational, tending to rise or fall, rigid or flexible, poiinted, oriented, symettrical or not
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: oh yes, we're on a roll now!
    Calvino Rabeni: All concepts of qualities, based on the behavior of bodies in a gravitational field :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And intrinslically part of the semantics presented by languages
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: friendly, snooty; babyish, mature; pretty, ugly; did you say symmetrical/asymmetrical?
    Calvino Rabeni: In addition to words expressing qualities, a good source is the language of metaphors and their common form as idioms and cliches
    Calvino Rabeni: For example - "things are looking up" - why is that a "good thing"?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: sure - those idioms and cliches would not exist unless they were useful
    Calvino Rabeni: What does that idiom tell us?
    Calvino Rabeni: "My spirits were rising" ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Same structure there.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: that when we look up we have more dignity.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: We're not scrabbling in the dirt for a grub to eat, we have the big picture
    Calvino Rabeni: that's part of it
    Calvino Rabeni: but Ithink that came a bit later
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: the sun rises, means the day is full of promise
    Calvino Rabeni: remember the transition from 4-legged to two?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: of course
    Calvino Rabeni: An earlier stage than that is known by the Plant entities
    Calvino Rabeni: when they are not feeling well, they also droop
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: they sprout underground and rise toward the heat and warmth of the sun
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Heat is up and cold is down, mostly
    Calvino Rabeni: Because hot air rises, is lighter?
    Calvino Rabeni: What we don't look at is the invisible underworld
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: because the sun is above the ground and we live on the ground
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: Trees may be creatures as much underground as above
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes but that doesn't really contradict the previous points ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, we live on the ground. And we look up at the sky, and know that there are birds above, and clouds, etc. which we can't reach. And know there is stuff down under us, and the surface we walk
    Calvino Rabeni: How about that :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: the direction of evolution is up, out of the water, out of the mud, up away from there, then up on two feet
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: one reason I like living at high altitude ... make sme wonder about the Tibetans ... they are living at the farthest possible distance away from the sea where we evolved out of.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: that's an "archetype" or dimension for you ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Zaldaan, you are still here? Are we entertaining you then?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... denser, more attenuated; fresher, more rotten; simpler, complex; circular, directional; fuzzy, smooth.
    Calvino Rabeni: Glad to see you Cosmic :)))
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Cosmic, so nice to see you again.
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hello Mitzi, You too ;)))
    Calvino Rabeni: There is a growing interest in dreams and dreaming lately
    --BELL--
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: why do you feel that is?
    Calvino Rabeni: A confluence of people's interests
    Calvino Rabeni: it is carried by some individuals - I am referring to the Kira orbit spedifically
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: a whorl in the complex system of human interests? or a result of something specific
    Calvino Rabeni: There's probably more behind it I would say
    Calvino Rabeni: No I'd guess it is systemic
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: is it Lucinda's fault?
    Calvino Rabeni: AH, not, probably mine :)
    Calvino Rabeni: We were studying Lojong in Ways of Knowing
    Calvino Rabeni: and one of the proverbs
    Calvino Rabeni: is "Drive all Blame to Yourself"
    Calvino Rabeni: That seems one you might like :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Me?!? No I don't like it!! Ha ha!
    Calvino Rabeni: That's what I mean :))
    Calvino Rabeni: haha
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It does have the flavor of "everything you know is wrong" though ... so in that way I do like it - it turns everything around and refreshes the self.
    Calvino Rabeni: LOL
    Calvino Rabeni: there you go :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Those slogans are two of a kind
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni throws the word Blame into the Pool
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: what does the lojong "Drive all blame to yourself" really mean? How do they use it
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni throws the word Judgement into the Pool
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;D
    Calvino Rabeni: As I told Lucinda earlier, the pool contains a variety of heavy objects :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Have you seen how deep it is? (You can look under the ground to see its depth)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: hmm ... blame / credit / cause / reason ... I think all these words can be used interchangeably except for their emotional connotation.
    Calvino Rabeni: I understand
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Its a good thing it's so deep! TO contain so many things.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is a "buffer"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: A memory hold
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: A memory HOLE I mean
    Calvino Rabeni: Putting things in nearby memory until they can be processed
    Calvino Rabeni: it is "working memory"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: memory hold is good too - like a vault
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh, that kind of buffer. Yes I get it.
    Calvino Rabeni: Could be that ... if we could lock it shut, and the contents were not perishable
    Calvino Rabeni: So maybe in that pool, is the idea of body awareness, and being able to be "accurate" in those observations
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: but the contents are perishable are they not? ... they are of the moment ...
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: As all living things are ...
    Calvino Rabeni: ... they are as perishable as you and I... which we pretend is "not so very"
    Calvino Rabeni: in other words, you can count on the persistence of those objects
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: accurate body awareness ... a holy grail of sorts
    Calvino Rabeni: which may even have a life span greater than you or I
    Calvino Rabeni: sure, but, you use it daily, a grail to drink from
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: indeed!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: (they sat in companionable silence ... enjoying the evening and each other)
    Calvino Rabeni: I was doing some web surfing for phenomenology of the body, but so far, I have found nothing really grounded in that accurate perception
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: maybe because it's hard to define or specify accuracy.
    Calvino Rabeni: Not really an excuse, is it?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: There is someone named Betsy Behnke (sp?) who I believe that is her field
    Calvino Rabeni: I've observed some various attempts - they seem to be lacking some basic grounding to be effective
    Calvino Rabeni: at least, it looks a bit like flailing
    Calvino Rabeni: This is why I'm looking at those somatic patterns
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Are they somatic, or more general (like physics?)
    Calvino Rabeni: because without that, it's hard to ground, and if not grounded that way, it gets grounded in speculactive philosophy and its aristotleinism
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, a back to basics approach might be a good thing.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: without SOMETHING externally unambiguous as referent points for conversation, it is very hard to be sure you and someone else are discussing the same objective thing.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: We go in circles about the meaning of words, which are defined in terms of other words ... endelessly circular.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that is the lack of grounding
    Calvino Rabeni: Actually it's proably worthwhile to hold the whole "language" thing - the idea of defining things - quite a but more lightly
    Calvino Rabeni: because that is an attachment to grounding in intellect
    Calvino Rabeni: and to the extent that is done, the somatic grounding will not occur
    Calvino Rabeni: So your're going to have people thinking speculatively about the phenomenology of the body, without doing and empirical observations first person, or any body sensing
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: not enough corporate money sponsoring research. That's the problem.
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, the activity of the philosophers does not depend on research projects
    Calvino Rabeni: and some of them have an interest in the topic
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: maybe that's the problem. Not enough real world relevance
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Education is one very relevant realm where phenomonlogy of the body would be super relevant
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: SO much money expended ... such ambiguous results. How do people learn? Important for so many things - institutional behavior, politics, advertising and marketing
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, alternative medicine, health-related self-help are huge endeavors
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: Also addiction treatment, athletics, and the military
    Calvino Rabeni: (just to suggest something on the other end of the world-view scale)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: sure! ALl the most intractable problems
    Calvino Rabeni: smiles ... tell me a tractable problem :)
    Calvino Rabeni: How about, discernment in business?
    Calvino Rabeni: Does that qualify as tractable?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, any "problem" that reached public discussion is likely to already have achieved intractability :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: very relevant to economics! Hey, Mr. President, how about some stimulus money for training to develop discernment in business? So we can get ahead of those Chinese, Brazilians, Indian s who are kicking our butt economically!!s
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm thinking about how much of the assimilation of new paradigms (for lack of a better word) is filtered through the private business sector
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: a leading ... or trailing ... indicator?
    Calvino Rabeni: both
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: presence of a pardigm there certainly indicates mainstreaming.
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: it is the conduit from esoteric subcultures, into the mainstream
    Calvino Rabeni: For example, Barbara Marx Hubbard was talking a concept called SupraSex in her lecture circuit
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: whatever works, works! the best validation .. especially in America. Perhaps not so much in other places ..?!?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: SupraSex? Do explicate?
    Calvino Rabeni: and that gets picked up by varieties of freelane "management consultants" at the small scale
    Calvino Rabeni: eventually it starts to make sense in progressive business leaders
    Calvino Rabeni: then it gets picked up by public intellectuals outside academia
    Calvino Rabeni: such as that guy who writes in Scientific American - basically a rationalist / libertarian style of thiking - e.g. the Skeptics - who are quite anti-relgion and anti-new-age
    Calvino Rabeni: but he wrote an article called "When Ideas Have Sex"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Michael Shermer?
    Calvino Rabeni: essentially the same notion as SupraSex
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Did you read that article?
    Calvino Rabeni: It might be also influenced by the "meme" meme
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: No I missed it - is it in the recent issue? I was too mesmerized by the article about the newsly discovered layer in the earth's core that made the mantle hotter and more dynamic resulting in continents and all kinds of excitement here on the planet.
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it was in that one; or the previous; maybe the one with "12 Events that will change EVERYTHING"
    --BELL--
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: That's the one I'me perusing with morning coffee these days.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well you guys I will continue to feel your companionable silence after I sign off ... It's been nice though! GOod evening all ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Mitzi, good to chat with you as always :))
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hello Lucinda <3<3<3
    Lucinda Lavender: hello Cosmic,Cal Zal...
    Calvino Rabeni: WB Cinda :)
    Lucinda Lavender: hi:)
    Lucinda Lavender: curious what amazing things have been emerging from the pool...
    --BELL--
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Re "_
    Calvino Rabeni: WB Zal
    Lucinda Lavender: time for sleep...take care all...
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night, Lucinda :) Dream well :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Sweet sleep time Lucinda, and nice travelling ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: TTYL then :)
    Lucinda Lavender: :) thanks same for all of you.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Was going over what I missed while on the phone, then running an errand, then visiting the bookstore. :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I like living near a bookstore
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I like living near one open until 11pm :)
    Calvino Rabeni: WHich one?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: www.bodhitree.com
    --BELL--
    Zaldaan Sirnah: filled with books on religion, spirituality, etc.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: candles and minerals and incense
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, we have one like that
    Zaldaan Sirnah: music and complimentary tea
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: Nice :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: been around for 30 or more years, and I believe this is its last year.
    Calvino Rabeni: Too bad, it is nice to have small specialized book stores
    Zaldaan Sirnah: yeah, on any topic :)
    Calvino Rabeni: There was a good tech bookstore in Silicon Valley, also in Cambridge MA
    Calvino Rabeni: And Portland OR
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: slurps her tea
    Calvino Rabeni: I have asparagus and spinach from the garden behind the house
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, did not found aspagarus from dictionary ;D
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: some herb?
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a kind grass, but thick and soft ;; mmm
    Calvino Rabeni: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asparagus
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you eat that, in your country?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yummy_Greenz.jpg
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: Good picture! It looks like the plate beside me
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, we eat some corns, or crops
    Calvino Rabeni: What grows in your area, to eat?
    Calvino Rabeni: Much is imported?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: oat, wheat, rye,
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: etc
    Zaldaan Sirnah: asparagus is the long green ones
    Calvino Rabeni: Hot house vegetables (greenhouse) ?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: in finnland there are lots of fields
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: those vegatebles, what needs hot weather is much imported
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think
    Calvino Rabeni: What are traditional foods for your area?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, or ment fruits
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe some kind of animal?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: potatoe
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: is one
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: beef, and pig, chiken
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and vegetables
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: potatoes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: carrots
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: etc
    Calvino Rabeni: Deer?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, deer is some more special
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: needed to hunt
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its not in food shops
    Calvino Rabeni: OH
    Calvino Rabeni: is there a hunter culture?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: LIke, the men like to go to the forest?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: WIth the rifle or the bow?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)))
    Calvino Rabeni: hehehe
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: with gun
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if want to have deer, its needed to hunt, or to buy from someone who do hunt
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and its cost some money
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: more expensice than for example cow
    Zaldaan Sirnah: hunting deer, you send them out to bring back grass for food :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: my ex husband was a hunter
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I did not like it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not equal
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if he would have hadn`t a gun
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then it would have been more equal to those animals
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well,
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: some point
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: he wanted to fullfill those dead animals
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and put them on wall
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Give the animals guns and make it a fair hunting season? :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I started to feel like living in semetary
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: cemetery
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: awfull
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I don't like the Taxidermy much
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and its not that we do not have food
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: in shops
    Calvino Rabeni: the dead animal heads
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: they do hunt because of FUN
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: thats the most awfull thing in it
    Calvino Rabeni: there seems an instinct for it?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, one friend of his
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: in that group of hunters
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: one`s bedroom
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there were a huge head of deer
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: above bed
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it was a bit
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: weird
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: cold not sleep
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: while huge deer is watching all the time
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: room was not big
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and head was huge
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it was the side of legs
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: on wall
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and came above bed
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: still wondering that
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: shaking her head
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: (moving like no-no)
    Calvino Rabeni: I saw one that had, on the other side of the wall, the "rear" of the huge deer
    Zaldaan Sirnah: what if people stopped killing animals for fun and started doing it out of a nice healthy hate :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ohh
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: came trhough wall..
    Calvino Rabeni: No, hate is not a good reason for it
    Calvino Rabeni: :) yes cos
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Maybe that deer was not shot -- maybe it was jumping through the room and got stuck :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)))
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: smiling widely
    Zaldaan Sirnah: and the owner is sweet and feeds it...
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well,
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I wonder what percentage of hunters are vegetarians.
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its huge little
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think
    Zaldaan Sirnah: You're so cute. It's big small.
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: loll
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sory ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: understood still ?? ;)
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: Not too many vegetariian hunters I'd think
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: true
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I use to mix words in rl too
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: once I said pesis fabric
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: fabric like in vollayball
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: volley
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: in the middle of groups
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or once I said in airport
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: we use to say here in finnland "yeah NO"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yeah is also said like you announce "you"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I said "juu no"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: she understood You know"
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm,
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: when only ment to answer to person no
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: we pronounce (not announce)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: all like its written
    Calvino Rabeni: That reminds me, people I know who say to answer a question - "Umm, yess, yes,..mmm,sure ..NO no!"
    Calvino Rabeni: As they think aloud
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: How about fishing, have you tried that?
    --BELL--

    This session continues in the 1am slot:
    NEXT, on Play As Being

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