2010.06.18 01:00 - Sects and lab-rats, or: Why we record

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    Wol Euler was guardian for this session. Comments will be added later.


    Pema Pera: Hi Wol!

    Wol Euler: hello pema

    Pema Pera: Good to see you here again.

    Pema Pera: I'm not sure how long I can stay -- dinner may be calling soon

    Wol Euler: likewise, it's been a while

    Wol Euler: what's for dinner?

    Wol Euler: hello darren

    Pema Pera: rice, of course, and all kinds of vegetabes :)

    Pema Pera: hi Darren

    Wol Euler: ah :)

    Darren Islar: mogge, morning

    Pema Pera: goeiemogge :)

    Wol Euler grins and switches on the instant translator

    Pema Pera: fat chance

    Wol Euler: try it :)

    Darren Islar: :)

    Pema Pera: Darren and I just spoke non-standard Dutch


    Pema Pera: Ah, sorry, indeed dinner calling, even sooner than expected . . . bye for now!

    Wol Euler: ah well, short but sweet

    Darren Islar: bye Peman

    Pema Pera: :)

    Wol Euler: bye pema, enjoy dinner

    Wol Euler: ah, there you are :)

    Darren Islar: :)

    Wol Euler: what's new?

    Darren Islar: hmmmmm, thinking

    Darren Islar: my eyes are new :)

    Wol Euler: oooh

    Wol Euler zooms in

    Wol Euler: ah :) pretty.

    Darren Islar: thanks

    Darren Islar: they were stain bleu

    Darren Islar: this is a bit softer

    Wol Euler nods

    Darren Islar: you hair is I guess not much like Wol, but it suits your skin

    Wol Euler: ty

    Wol Euler: and it suits the formality of this dress

    Darren Islar: yes

    Wol Euler: with many of these items I'm finding for the 30/30 project, I realize that there was a reason why I don't wear them

    Wol Euler: this hairstyle doesn't really suit my face/head

    Darren Islar: I think it does, but it is giving you more forehead

    Wol Euler: perhaps that just feels unusual :)

    Darren Islar: yes

    Darren Islar: I can imaagine it can give a somewhat 'naked' feeling

    Wol Euler: heh, yes

    Wol Euler: that's true

    Wol Euler: what an apt description

    Wol Euler: Lia was talking about her meditation sessions with Liza last night

    Wol Euler: she's enjoying them very much

    Darren Islar: yes it feels that way to Liza too

    Wol Euler: hello cal

    Darren Islar: and there is an advantage of being the only one

    Darren Islar: you can really address questions someone is having

    Darren Islar: it is more private

    Darren Islar: hi Cal :)

    Wol Euler nods.

    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Wol & Darren


    Wol Euler is irritated by her neighbour's phone ringing unanswered, since it has the same tone as hers

    Darren Islar: :)

    Darren Islar is looking at the nice cup of tea Cal brought along and is wondering if he brought some for his friends

    Darren Islar: would be a meditation exercise Wol :)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Darren Islar: thanks Cal :)

    Wol Euler: lab-rats, eh?

    Wol Euler: there have been a few people who asked why we record & publish

    Darren Islar: your reading the e-mail

    Wol Euler: mmhmm :)

    Wol Euler: pema mentioned that he'd replied

    Darren Islar: oh, haven't seen that yet

    Darren Islar: was more into an w-mail that was telling me that Liza needs to move

    Wol Euler: eh?

    Wol Euler: ty cal

    Darren Islar: some changes on the sim she is using

    Wol Euler: hello zaldaan

    Darren Islar: but somebody is already busy trying to get me another spot

    Darren Islar: I think I saw a flying object :)

    Darren Islar: hi Zal :)

    Darren Islar: I will hear more news today

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Morning folks

    Darren Islar: mogge

    Wol Euler: I hope it works out

    Darren Islar: I hope so too, have good friends so with lots of influence, so, lets wait and see

    Darren Islar: and otherwise I need to hire something

    Darren Islar: rent something :))

    Calvino Rabeni: I'm reading the reply to the email about the logging

    Wol Euler: I suppose the question of sect-ness or lab-rat-Being depends on the person's reason for suspecting that

    Darren Islar: true

    Calvino Rabeni: It is interesting because I was not there when it was first discussed

    Wol Euler: rcording and not publishing would be more suspicious, I agree

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Have I said anything which would ruin my life if I got into politics?

    Wol Euler: but the question of why we do it keeps coming up

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Perhaps logs should not be permanent.

    Wol Euler: anyone who wilingly goes into politics deserves to have his life ruined :)

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Or group members should have a password so it's not indexable by a search engine

    Wol Euler waves the "that was a joke" flag

    Darren Islar: yes and also noticing that people sometimes are releaved when no recording is going on

    Darren Islar: when we have a chat somewhere else

    Zaldaan Sirnah: It worries me -- although I try to be careful and responsible about everything I say -- I still have concerns about myself.

    Wol Euler: though that may be partly the informality of the setting.


    Wol Euler: this is a very formal and structured space, even without the recording

    Zaldaan Sirnah: No it's the recording that causes the problem :)

    Zaldaan Sirnah: So, the point is, how many use the logs, and how can that be resolved?

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Flash-applet to view logs could prevent cut/paste as well as prevent search engine indexing

    Wol Euler: what would be the purpose of htat?

    Zaldaan Sirnah: oh, are others concerned about people viewing the logs? My main concern is the caching on the internet, forever (see the web archive wayback machine), and search engine caches, and a bit less so people keeping archives of logs

    Darren Islar is reading the e-mails

    Wol Euler: I'm not sure what the concern is really.

    Wol Euler: I suspect that it may be "existential": rather "this should not happen at all" than "it might be misused"

    Zaldaan Sirnah: maybe in the future I will be a proponent of burning rainforests, because maybe it's good to rid the world of those trees, but right now I make a comment about it being destructive of a portion of the sustaining force of our environment. Yet my business-associates in the future take me for a tree hugger and I lose my business, or receive death threats.

    Calvino Rabeni: That is what avatars and alts are for - pseudonymity

    Wol Euler nods

    Wol Euler: there is no connection to RL-you unless *you* personally and explicitly put it into the record

    Calvino Rabeni: An intelligence agency could figure it out

    Wol Euler: sure

    Zaldaan Sirnah: no -- open conversation can leak details which relate it

    Calvino Rabeni: but if it were that critical to separate, one would not risk

    Wol Euler: but they are already tapping your phone line and reading your outgoing e-mails anyway.

    Zaldaan Sirnah: yeah, alts would be important if it were that critical I presume. One can't guarantee no logs exist -- but they CAN avoid places with deliberate logging.

    Zaldaan Sirnah: I think there's a sort of shame here though -- you can't participate without that attachment.

    Calvino Rabeni: I think I agree

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Yet it's an environment in which people, not necessarily me, might desire to share private personal aspects of their life

    Wol Euler: social presssure to conform by agreeing to be logged?

    Zaldaan Sirnah: fear of sharing

    Wol Euler: oh I see, sorry

    Zaldaan Sirnah: violation of privacy

    Zaldaan Sirnah: no, I'm fine -- I'm just considering now what all the implications are .. and these are perhaps the most sensitive.

    Wol Euler: well, surely this is just like RL?

    Zaldaan Sirnah: I've been aware of the discomfort from the beginning, but I'm a relatively open person.

    Calvino Rabeni: privacy hides a lot of different things, doesn't it

    Wol Euler: I tell some friends about my social life, but not all of them

    Zaldaan Sirnah: no in real life you're not logged nor audio recorded in your private spiritual sessions -- usually. :)

    Wol Euler: and when I tell them, I don't do so when sitting in a crowded restaurant or a library

    Darren Islar: back, and reading

    Zaldaan Sirnah: so this group must ask itself -- does it want to be the teacher that prepares the individuals to take caution with their words?

    Zaldaan Sirnah: It's not a bad teaching

    Calvino Rabeni: The logging biases the PaB meetings away from true openness

    Wol Euler: that is true

    Calvino Rabeni: and it can be a harsh lesson

    Zaldaan Sirnah: it can ruin someone's life, as its worst capability.

    Calvino Rabeni: whether there are consequences or not... it raises the possibiity of a life with no buffers

    Calvino Rabeni: If a person's life was ready to be ruined, it might complete the circuit

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Our teacher said, "don't play with your "Self.""

    Wol Euler: the news media are significantly less tolerant that society as a whole, and society is less tolerant than many or most of the individuals in it

    Wol Euler: which is a way of saying "yes" to Calvino's last line

    Zaldaan Sirnah: it's a translation of the Farsi -- I don't know the actual Persian word used.

    Zaldaan Sirnah: So, my approach to these things is to say -- what is the purpose of it, and not "is it worth it", but can we balance the two as one.


    Calvino Rabeni: In some ways the personal disclosure in Twittter is sharper, balanced by the fragmenting effect of lack of context

    Darren Islar: why is it that it really feels nice to have a cup of steaming tea in your in sl?

    Darren Islar: sorry different topic

    Wol Euler: it's called "embodiment" :)

    Darren Islar: :))

    Zaldaan Sirnah: To be honest, I don't think any logging, without search engines, allows the comfort level and openness, and I think in such a group that is crucial

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Perhaps the bot should allow persons to strike text, themselves, under their control

    Wol Euler: well, hang on a moment.

    Wol Euler: this is not a therapy session

    Calvino Rabeni: Nor a confessional

    Wol Euler: at least it's not intended to be

    Zaldaan Sirnah: No, but sharing private spiritual experiences -- to be honest, sometimes one's experience is not "for" others.

    Wol Euler: the formality of this spatial setting corresponds to the formality of what we do here

    Wol Euler: you don't eat your breakfast in a church

    Wol Euler: why not?

    Wol Euler: because that's not what it is for

    Calvino Rabeni: There are other Kira activities that are more focused and possibly more intimate - and not logged and published

    Zaldaan Sirnah: again, the consequence is that we are being the "teacher" to teach responsibility.

    Wol Euler: perhaps saying that you cannot discuss extremely personal information here simply means that you should not discuss them *here*

    Calvino Rabeni: the more personal disclosures can occur there

    Zaldaan Sirnah: yet, we're not the commander of the ultimate destination of the logs.

    Calvino Rabeni: A variety of spaces should be provided, is my opinion

    Wol Euler: and indeed there are.

    Wol Euler: the community hall

    Wol Euler: the five bells

    Wol Euler: our own plots

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Hence, at least we could prevent the logs from being taken by search engines, behind a simple [form] on the web.

    Wol Euler: kira

    Darren Islar: yes Cal, that was my initially thought

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but they don't have the same draw as this venue

    Zaldaan Sirnah: or with robots.txt, but spiders can ignore that.

    Calvino Rabeni: there needs to be some equalization

    Darren Islar: and maybe that also goes for this kind of meetings

    Zaldaan Sirnah: I have some questions: do we want these logs archived forever publically available?

    Calvino Rabeni: if you want to stand on a rooftop and proclaim to the world, this is the place to do it

    Darren Islar: but those are somehow not used

    Calvino Rabeni: perhaps the visual setting should be a rooftop in a city

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Calvino, yeah noone can hear you there ;)

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Apparently noone's not a word.

    Darren Islar: this is where we meet and for people who don't have relations with others that makes it natural to speak with each other outside this circle, this feels kind of private

    Wol Euler: that is also true, darren.

    Calvino Rabeni: There is IM for that

    Calvino Rabeni: but, I think there should be semiprivate group settings

    Wol Euler: the risk of lapsing into too-much-intimacy is present here

    Wol Euler: well, there is group IM

    Calvino Rabeni: that are scheduled and form a reliable opportunity

    Darren Islar: yes, but nobody is using group IM

    Calvino Rabeni: One idea is to have a special "non-logged" day at PaB

    Wol Euler: (not the play as being groups, but IM with multiple participants, conference IM)

    Darren Islar: but maybe we should consider to use it time to time

    Calvino Rabeni: LIke maybe, every Friday or Saturday

    Wol Euler: that is a good idea!

    Calvino Rabeni: NO logging for 24 hours

    Calvino Rabeni: a kind of "logging sabbath"

    Darren Islar: sounds great, went to bed with that thought :)

    Wol Euler: what if we turn the Friday 1pm session, which is usually just fun, into a formally non-recorded time?

    Wol Euler: for telling the truth off the record

    Calvino Rabeni: I think it needs a full day

    Calvino Rabeni: yes for that purpose

    Darren Islar: i agree with Cal

    Calvino Rabeni: One session is not enough to set a new feeling

    Calvino Rabeni: and people miss single meetings

    Wol Euler: all right, let's suggest that. Cal, will you write the e-mail?

    Calvino Rabeni: and live in different zones

    Calvino Rabeni: OK, I will

    Darren Islar: especially not friday 1 pm :))

    Darren Islar: great :))

    Calvino Rabeni: especialy not what about Friday 1pm, Darren?

    Darren Islar: being the only session without logging, because that is mostly all about fun

    Calvino Rabeni: ok, right

    Darren Islar: It wouldn't give us another mind set

    Calvino Rabeni: it is often the silly season

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Darren, do you drink a lot of green tea?

    Darren Islar: or having us experimenting with it

    Darren Islar: not anymore

    Calvino Rabeni: but I agree, yes, there needs to be a nonlogged "sincere" space too

    Calvino Rabeni: as well as a nonlogged goof space

    Darren Islar: :))

    Zaldaan Sirnah: That'll have some effect, but the limitation of it being a particular day will also be a problem.

    Darren Islar: which means I guess that we deliberatly need to stop recording

    Zaldaan Sirnah: But whatever. :) Is it no fire on the Sabbath?

    Darren Islar: you need to start somewhere, find out what it does, and go from there

    Zaldaan Sirnah: What can one do with fear?

    Wol Euler: ok, then here's anohter idea. We can turn the recorder off if people want to speak about private issues.

    Wol Euler: happens infrequently, but it does happen.

    Darren Islar: yes, but sometimes you are already in the middle of it

    Zaldaan Sirnah: I think "Play as Being" is a good teacher to teach people NOT to play with their own beings. :)

    Calvino Rabeni: that's not really adequate, in my opinion

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes sometimes, no others, zal

    Darren Islar: I feel more like no recording at all

    Zaldaan Sirnah: how many review the logs anyway?

    Calvino Rabeni: Another idea is an occasional logging moratorium

    Wol Euler: no logging at all is not going to happen, not in the place whose name is Play as Being.

    Calvino Rabeni: Actually, experiencing "nonlogging" for a while would be a good comparison and "experiment" or learning experience

    Darren Islar: no I mean for a certain day or session

    Calvino Rabeni: I wouldn't be so sure, Wol

    Zaldaan Sirnah: well, we could just have a little group over there --> for private conversations

    Wol Euler: ok, agreed

    Calvino Rabeni: if that were true, it would be dogmatic

    Zaldaan Sirnah: then the individuals, on any particular day, could say, 'can we go over there and talk?'

    Zaldaan Sirnah: then it's like natural life.

    Calvino Rabeni: in my opinion, exploring it mindfully would be in keeping with the PaB principle


    Darren Islar: true Cal

    Zaldaan Sirnah: I find myself switching windows and doing work in the 90 seconds :(

    Calvino Rabeni: @zal, natural life is not really open-ended and flexible - therefore people need the support of conventions at times

    Calvino Rabeni: BTW, I was at an improv acting class today, and it came up, that improv can be serious or somewhat dark, not just "comedy" - the teacher was quite relieved

    Wol Euler nods.

    Darren Islar: why relieved?

    Calvino Rabeni: given "free choice" people don't use it freely

    Darren Islar smiles

    Calvino Rabeni: relieved, because they just then realized the wider scope of their creative possibilities

    Calvino Rabeni: they, being the students in the class

    Calvino Rabeni: they were "stuck" in a fun-and-games mode

    Calvino Rabeni: then when one improvised scenario was a little weird and dark, it broke the ice

    Darren Islar: I have been acting myself for two years, so I guess to me it is natural not thinking about improvisations to be comical

    Calvino Rabeni: where that "play" mode had actually been a straight-jacket of sorts

    Darren Islar: and maybe that si also an american thing

    Wol Euler wonders whether improv is to RL as roleplay is to SL

    Wol Euler: (not that there isn't RP in RL too)

    Darren Islar: it depends, but in general I should say it is not the same

    Calvino Rabeni: Not sure, what are some of the characteristics of role play?

    Wol Euler: improvisation within a given situation is one

    Calvino Rabeni: I thought, role play was stereotyped

    Wol Euler: it can be, yes, people assume that you will follow the situation

    Wol Euler: but I guess that improv does that too

    Calvino Rabeni: some of the improv is not "within a given situation", if it is more radically improvised

    Darren Islar: real improvisation comes from within

    Darren Islar: not from a given situation

    Calvino Rabeni: and the "situation" is allowed to, or even required to, be completly dropped and reformulated at any time

    Darren Islar: (I can type with one hand :))

    Calvino Rabeni: right darren, it comes from within, moment to moment

    Wol Euler frownbs

    Wol Euler: but surely you improvise in response to what others are improvising?

    Wol Euler: as we do right now in convesration?

    Calvino Rabeni: But how free is it, Wol?

    Wol Euler: that's what I am asking

    Darren Islar: improvisation is more close to meditation then to conversation

    Calvino Rabeni: agree

    Calvino Rabeni: conversation is not very free

    Wol Euler: oh, it's late, I must get to work :(

    Darren Islar: conversation is something at a distance

    Calvino Rabeni: I'll go with you

    Wol Euler: carry on, I'm curious to rad the end of this conversation

    Darren Islar: before you speak already a lot is happening in your body and mind

    Calvino Rabeni: keep it up by Twitter

    Wol Euler: bye for now, take care

    Darren Islar: a good improviser uses that

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes Darren, I think there's a "lock-in" also

    Calvino Rabeni: the improviser can think with the body

    Darren Islar: bye Wol

    Darren Islar: yes

    Calvino Rabeni: I often seem to agree with you, Darren

    Darren Islar: and the other away around :)

    Darren Islar: my place in the village, or the Shift?

    Darren Islar: wrong window :)


    Calvino Rabeni: I have another engagement - will slip out now - thanks Zal and Darren

    Darren Islar: bye Cal, leaving too

    Darren Islar: bye Zal

    Darren Islar: if you are still here :)

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