2010.06.19 19:00 - Do we have time or does time have us or . . . ?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

    Kiki Walpanheim: Hi Paradise, Stevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello kiki
    Kiki Walpanheim: Hi Bleu
    Paradise Tennant: hiya kiki gtsy
    Bleu Oleander: hi Kiki
    Kiki Walpanheim: Hi Pema
    Bleu Oleander: hi Pema
    Pema Pera: hi everybody! Busy Saturday evening already :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: we were all admiring the art
    Pema Pera: yes, isn't it nice, the whole collection, as well as the building around it?
    Pema Pera: hi Eos and Eliza!
    Bleu Oleander: turned out really nice
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos, Pema, Paradise, Steve, Bleu, and Kiki! :)
    Pema Pera: it's great to see the variety of photos that everybody contributed
    Bleu Oleander: it will be fun to hear everyone talk about it too
    Pema Pera: and I'll set my alarm clock :-) the opening is at 6 am for me, Tuesday morning
    stevenaia Michinaga: I hope to be there for part of the time
    Paradise Tennant: sighs I will be working :) but will join you in spirit!
    Pema Pera: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: someone planning to log it?
    stevenaia Michinaga: (please)

    At first I misunderstood Steve's question; see below

    Eliza Madrigal: Sure, good idea
    Pema Pera: yes, I will :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: wonders how transportable this recoder is
    Kiki Walpanheim: Hi all
    Pema Pera: Hi Kiki!
    Kiki Walpanheim: Hi Pema!
    stevenaia Michinaga: welcome Kiki
    Kiki Walpanheim: Thank you
    Eos Amaterasu: (maybe it's already there (at Art as Being))
    Pema Pera: do you have any questions about our group, or what we are doing and talking about (other than taking photographs), Kiki?
    Bleu Oleander: shall I log it and put it on the wiki?
    Pema Pera: ah, you mean the opening meeting?
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Pema Pera: ah!
    Kiki Walpanheim: Hmm....so far so good, i only have a rough idea about the group....yes i'd like to get to know it better.....but not sure which questions to ask.....
    Pema Pera: I thought that Stevenaia gently reminded me that I hadn't claimed my log yet for the current session :)
    Pema Pera: great idea, Bleu!
    Pema Pera: hi Ewan
    Kiki Walpanheim: perhaps when questions arise, i would ask ....ty ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bleu yes and as a theme session also, or maybe on the Art as Being page? ...
    stevenaia Michinaga: grins, no I assuemd the reminder would do that
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Lucinda, Ewan :)
    Bleu Oleander: whatever you think Eliza
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi All
    Pema Pera: I was wondering about you being so polite, Steve, even more than usual, with the "please" :-)
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi all!
    Pema Pera: hi Lucinda!
    Paradise Tennant: hiya ewan lucinda :)
    Lucinda Lavender: very slow connection today...
    stevenaia Michinaga: that was for the "Art as Being " log
    Bleu Oleander: hi Ewan, Lucinda
    Pema Pera: yes, I later understood :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    Eliza Madrigal: seems slow to me too lucinda...
    stevenaia Michinaga: took me a few trys to get on tonight

    I suggestion an exploration/exercise/experiment with time:

    Pema Pera: shall we spend the 90-sec break to look at how each moment every things is arising anew?
    Pema Pera: in SL and RL :)
    Pema Pera: Would anybody like to describe how it felt, to consider each moment as totally new?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I jsut felt the possibilities of optimisum being endless
    Bleu Oleander: felt like it related to attention is some ways
    stevenaia Michinaga: change flows up with me
    Lucinda Lavender: the word fresh comes to mind
    Paradise Tennant: smiles like a hearbeat .. of ebbing and flowing ..
    Pema Pera: I noticed the similarity between solidity and openness: the content of the experiences being so different, but as experiences quite similar
    Eos Amaterasu: the holder of that seeing is not any particular arising
    Bleu Oleander: moments unnoticed are well just that ... unnoticed but do exist?
    Pema Pera: can you say more about the holder, Eos?
    Eos Amaterasu: when you're not holding on to anything everything is fresh
    Lucinda Lavender: I picture it as everything that might be trailing behind is now dissipated, disconnected, nothing hanging on...
    Pema Pera: yes, it felt similarly for me, Lucinda
    Pema Pera: and it brings in question for me what it means to "exist" (@ Bleu)
    Eos Amaterasu: a little bit of refugee quality
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: yes, we're all washed ashore in time each moment
    Bleu Oleander: yes, what are moments? do they exist if no one notices them?
    Kiki Walpanheim: And it makes me feel more desperate in understanding the universe, regarding how small, neglectable I am compared to that universe
    Pema Pera: but you're also holding the whole universe in your mind, Kiki, don't you think?
    Eos Amaterasu: Blue, do you mean there might be a tree falling in a far-off galaxy of which we are not even aware?
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Kiki Walpanheim: if what exists is what I perceive in my consciousness, then yes....

    In time, of time, what can we say about time?

    Pema Pera: Bleu, the fascinating thing is that we talk about existence *in* moments, existence of stones and clouds, etc -- but what about existence *of* moments? Isn't that somethng very different?
    Bleu Oleander: what actually is a moment?
    Pema Pera: that's the question :-)
    Bleu Oleander: yes seems so Pema
    Bleu Oleander: is a moment "being in time"?
    Pema Pera: and similarly for Kiki: the "I" is also something that you percieve in a moment
    Eos Amaterasu: A moment: an integer unit of inhabited time?
    Pema Pera: the moment seems to be prior to "I"
    Pema Pera: even though we talk about "I see a moment"
    Pema Pera: we may have it all backwards . . . .
    Pema Pera: we think we can take a stance outside time, outside consciousness -- that's what ourlanguage suggests
    Pema Pera: I see this now in my consciousness . . . . very misleading!
    Pema Pera: how about : now is conscious of me ?
    Lucinda Lavender: nice...
    Bleu Oleander: are we now?
    Eos Amaterasu: we're now or never
    Pema Pera: (are we having fun yet? :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: laughs, let's ask "Now"
    Bleu Oleander: brain is working too hard hehe
    Pema Pera: hi Druth!
    Kiki Walpanheim: Hi Druth
    Lucinda Lavender: and is conscious of me as a concsciousness?
    Bleu Oleander: hi druth
    druth Vlodovic: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hey druth :))
    Paradise Tennant: hiya druth :)
    druth Vlodovic: hi all
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Druth
    Lucinda Lavender: HI Druth

    I suggested a second time exploration/experiment/exercise:

    Pema Pera: how about spending the next 90 seconds during the break to let "now be conscious of me"?
    Eliza Madrigal: mmmm, nods
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Pema Pera: rather than the "I" trying to step out of time and conscious to "claim" having time and consciousness?
    Paradise Tennant: and time is what .. errr .. exactly ...
    Paradise Tennant: ?
    Pema Pera: I heard the rain on the roof, suddenly exquisitely distinctly, drop by drop
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Pema Pera: how did it feel for each of you?
    Lucinda Lavender: must go...leaving you in the lap of now...
    Paradise Tennant: smiles bye lucinda :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Lucinda :)
    Pema Pera: bye Lucinda :)
    Bleu Oleander: bye Lucinda
    Lucinda Lavender: bye all
    druth Vlodovic: bye
    Kiki Walpanheim: bye lucinda

    Many interesting questions and observations are put forward.

    Kiki Walpanheim: does it mean, each moment is not just separate perspective of things, but
    Kiki Walpanheim: hmmm....
    Eliza Madrigal felt a bit of the perception of pressure of 'i have to do' fall away... relaxed quite a bit
    Pema Pera: (I don't know, Kiki, we're hear to find out, so let's compare reports and see what we can figure out)
    Pema Pera: *here
    Bleu Oleander: is time and consciousness observing us?
    Kiki Walpanheim: (just trying to read about phenomenology and husserl and it seems hard to understand...so far)
    Pema Pera: you tell us, Bleu, what do you think/feel/sense/see?
    stevenaia Michinaga: dificult to wrap my mind around the concious of "now", as as soon as you do, "now" has passed and a new "now" emerges
    Pema Pera: (yes, Husserl's wasn't a great writer :)
    Pema Pera: how about letting now wrap around you?
    Pema Pera: and your mind?
    Kiki Walpanheim: ahh.... I admire the philosophers....only i am slow in understanding
    Paradise Tennant: smiles and blinks
    Pema Pera: we'd better be slow here . . .
    Bleu Oleander: I sense an awareness of time consciousness
    Pema Pera: really look at what's here
    Pema Pera: yes, Bleu!!
    stevenaia Michinaga: seemed easier to "work with Being" than now's view
    Pema Pera: now is such a mystery . . . .
    Pema Pera: we don't have to go to distant lands to explore something new -- each now is new!!

    Eos reports a wonderful observation.

    Eos Amaterasu: I've watched some babies and their parents reently... get the impression babies experience being observed by ..... nowness?.... which gradually emerges into a universe of people, and the reflection of that awareness of them by nowness bcomes their awareness of themselves....
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, now .... a snapshot
    Paradise Tennant: hmm picture time more like real estate .. sort of a land kind of thingy ..that supports awareness .. existence .. experience .. like a canvas that gets painted ..
    Pema Pera: nice, Eos !!
    Paradise Tennant: land as geography
    Pema Pera: time can present itself in so many ways and guises . . . .
    Pema Pera: time may be the joker in the deck of our lives . . . .
    stevenaia Michinaga: time as a now container
    Paradise Tennant: wonders if babies .. know themselves as something different before they merge into the world of their parents :)
    Pema Pera: container . . . what is outside then?
    stevenaia Michinaga: outside time?
    Pema Pera: without an outside, what is the meaning of a "container"?
    Paradise Tennant: maybe we are time
    stevenaia Michinaga: and infinitly large vessel, to contain nows
    Pema Pera: the gradually emerging is a great notion, Eos, perhaps we can all do the "baby" exploration during the next breatk!
    stevenaia Michinaga: no outside
    Pema Pera: *break
    Kiki Walpanheim: yes, sometimes you can go back to the same place, or the same ppl, but what you missed once might never be found back, because things keep changing, they are not the same as back then no more
    stevenaia Michinaga: was thinking that, we are the babies
    Pema Pera: yes, Kiki, very much so!
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at steve :)
    Pema Pera: Eos, do you want to phrase what you saw as an exercise/exploration?
    Pema Pera: (perhaps an infinite one :-)

    Eos in his inimitably concise style formulated the next time exploration/exercise/experiment:

    Eos Amaterasu: let nowness hold you
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Kiki Walpanheim: and yes... when we don't go to distant places, appear to be static...maybe actually we are meditating...which is more of an adventure, in mind
    Pema Pera: I did feel nicely cradled :)
    Eos Amaterasu: I felt like crying :-)
    Kiki Walpanheim: the pure pleasure of reading and writing in the study room all the time, which doesnt seem attractive, could indeed be very pleasant in the writer's view
    Eliza Madrigal: I felt energized...
    Paradise Tennant: smiles felt open .. to now :)
    Bleu Oleander: felt my personal time wrapped within larger time
    Eliza Madrigal: mmm, interesting... did personal time feel different that way?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I felt anchored, held by a moment, time stops
    Bleu Oleander: yes, feels very subjective and at the same time very objective if that makes senses
    Pema Pera: hi Calvino!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Cal
    stevenaia Michinaga: yet the pull of time was forceful
    Bleu Oleander: hi Cal
    Pema Pera: it does, Bleu!
    Calvino Rabeni: hello everyone :)
    Paradise Tennant: hiya cal gtsy :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, Bleu, yes
    Bleu Oleander: and personal time seems not quite in tune with "clock time" somehow
    Bleu Oleander: time seems multi-faceted!
    Eos Amaterasu: personal time is what bridges SL/RL?
    Kiki Walpanheim: hi cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Kiki :)
    Eliza Madrigal: the bridging aspect seems really interesting... like one side of time and another... yes guess that subjective/objective sense... and when that is open then what... kind of thing :)
    Paradise Tennant: amazing how .. something as elemental to our awareness .. defys .. understanding .. on so many levels .. time truly is a mystery :)

    And a mystery it is!

    Eliza Madrigal laughs at the construction of her own sentence ... begs forgiveness :) hehe
    Pema Pera: yes, isn't it amazing?
    Pema Pera: and we can live our whole life without really ever questioning time in a deep way . . . .
    Bleu Oleander: for me SLT and RL time are the same clock time, but very different personal time and same larger time ? stop me if i've gone to far .. ha!
    Eos Amaterasu wonders if Eliza's sentence construction describes a single moment
    Eliza Madrigal giggles and will never do that ;-)
    Pema Pera: I feel similarly, Bleu!
    Pema Pera: and with dream time too
    Eliza Madrigal: :) @Eos
    Bleu Oleander: phew ... felt close to the edge :)
    Pema Pera: how about jumping and flying, Bleu? :-)
    Pema Pera: flying in time might be okay . . . .
    Bleu Oleander: dream time could push me over :))
    Eliza Madrigal: and time for me to fly...
    stevenaia Michinaga: Night ELiza
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Night, thanks for a wonderful session everyone!!!
    Bleu Oleander: does anyone really know what time is?
    Pema Pera: goodnight ELiza!
    Calvino Rabeni: In one of those slightly odd coincidences, I was reading aa wikipedia article on time, as I arrived at this session - it was about the technical complexities of making a linear scale of time
    Eos Amaterasu: midnight departure for me too, ciao all
    Bleu Oleander: nite Eliza
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Eliza
    Bleu Oleander: bye Eos
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite elliza lovely to see you :)
    Pema Pera: It's time for me to leave too . . . lunch beckoning
    Kiki Walpanheim: see u
    Paradise Tennant: enjoy lunch pema ...and thank you :)
    Pema Pera: so much fine to talk with all of you -- time and again :-)
    Bleu Oleander: bye Pema .... thanks for a facinating session
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Pema
    Pema Pera: see you Monday, 2 pm SLT, if not earlier!

    I have to take off, much as I would have loved to continue this inspiring hands-on conversation.

    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Paradise Tennant: take care kiki :)
    Bleu Oleander: bye Kiki
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Kiki, nice seeing you
    stevenaia Michinaga: night all
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite steve:)
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite bleu
    druth Vlodovic: I'm off to look at the display,
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite druth
    Bleu Oleander: nite everyone :)
    Paradise Tennant: I am off to walk the dog "_
    Bleu Oleander: take care
    Bleu Oleander: me too!
    Paradise Tennant: smiles enjoy your nite cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night everyone :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, Paradise
    Calvino Rabeni: be well !
    Paradise Tennant: thanks kindly for posting those logs cal
    Paradise Tennant: appreciate it
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: very welcome Para :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and good night druth :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles I really waving ..big wave from toronto :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :)

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