2010.06.22 01:00 - Newbie time

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Wester Kiranov. The comments are by Wester Kiranov.

    Darren Islar, Zaldaan Sirnah and Calvino Rabeni joined me for this session. Later nio Artful came in as well, for the first time.


    Wester Kiranov: hi zaldaan
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Morning, Wester
    Wester Kiranov: hi calvino
    Darren Islar: hi Zal, Cal, Wes :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Wester, Zal, what's happening?
    Darren Islar: sounds like do, re, mi :)
    Wester Kiranov: hi darren
    --BELL--
    Zaldaan Sirnah: D, C: Morning
    Darren Islar: wb Zal :)
    Darren Islar: how was last night for you Cal :)
    Darren Islar: I mean this morning; the exhibition
    Darren Islar: I liked Wol's interpretation of your pick
    Calvino Rabeni: hmmm
    Darren Islar: moments in moments
    Darren Islar: but all those moments still in the last picture
    Calvino Rabeni: Wol reflected the exact idea that I was looking to represent in the photograph
    Calvino Rabeni: and I was pleased that someone had done that
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: also though, I felt a bit guilty
    Darren Islar: why is that?
    Calvino Rabeni: because, basically, I just showed up at the dome, with no preconceived art ideas, and not much intent to spend a long time at it
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: because, basically, I just showed up at the dome, with no preconceived art ideas, and not much intent to spend a long time at it
    Calvino Rabeni: and then just cooked up that photo on the spot, out of thin air, so to speak
    Darren Islar: :))
    Calvino Rabeni: See, so I didn't feel I'd given it proper effort :)
    Darren Islar: hmmmm
    Calvino Rabeni: good result, for a lazy effort :)
    Darren Islar: still there is some nice depth to it
    Darren Islar: but I wonder is there a 'now' and 'then'
    Darren Islar: or is 'then' also 'now'
    Darren Islar: like your pictures also showing themselves in the last picture
    Darren Islar: suggesting it is still 'here'
    Darren Islar: I noticed it because I know Pema don't think in now and then
    Darren Islar: so it made me think
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure I can remember, how Pema thinks about time, exactly :)
    Darren Islar: we had a discussion about that lately
    Darren Islar: if I get it right, he only sees a 'now'
    Darren Islar: I think that is an interesting thought and the only one that sticks if you think about no time
    Darren Islar: that defines what memories mean
    Calvino Rabeni: can you restate that in a bit of detail?
    Darren Islar: yes, I realise it is a bit abstrat
    Darren Islar: trying to closs in on the thought

    And then nio came in.


    Wester Kiranov: hello nio
    Darren Islar: hi Nio
    nio Artful: hi
    Darren Islar: but I guess that it makes memories fluid
    Wester Kiranov: have you been here before Nio?
    nio Artful: no
    Darren Islar: hi Mark
    nio Artful says in Mermish Sesmuna
    nio Artful: a (SESS-moo-nah): Friend of Mer tp me yesterfay...when i was in slitechat
    MarkyBoo Innovia: hey guys
    nio Artful: me
    Wester Kiranov: hello marky
    nio Artful: do you know pablito?
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    nio Artful: he tp me yesterday
    nio Artful: but i was in a lite chat vewer so could not see anything
    nio Artful: what is here meditation place?
    nio Artful: ?

    I gave him the PaB notecard.


    nio Artful: ty
    nio Artful: very nice i have read the note card about the place here very interesting
    Darren Islar: we are recording the session and pusblish it on our wiki
    Darren Islar: is that ok with you?
    nio Artful: is there a reason that no one is talking?
    nio Artful: yes ok
    Darren Islar: thanks :)
    Darren Islar: well we were talking about a topic, then two people came in :)
    --BELL--
    Darren Islar: and we like to welcome our gests in a proper way
    Wester Kiranov: (right now is silent period, when the pond gets misty)
    nio Artful: can someone send me a copy of the dicusion that was going on here before i came? or just tell me the subject?
    nio Artful: dicussion
    Wester Kiranov: I think Darren was musing about time
    Darren Islar: :))
    Wester Kiranov: but sometimes we just are silent together as well
    Wester Kiranov: is tehre anything you would like to discuss nio?
    Darren Islar: the problem is the topic was about a picture Cal made and which is hanging up in teh square
    Darren Islar: the problem is the topic was about a picture Cal made and which is hanging up in teh square
    nio Artful: ok i did not understand the topic discuss but ty for giving me the oportunity to talk
    nio Artful: i am from greece
    nio Artful: 44 years old married 1 kids
    nio Artful: sory 2 kids
    nio Artful: i was always interesting about the ability of a persom to live a focus consatrated in awaken consiousnes life
    nio Artful: person
    Darren Islar: hmmmm, yes, that seems to be THE question
    Calvino Rabeni: that is interesting nio
    Calvino Rabeni: there seem many ways to approach that aim
    nio Artful: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: it could be done in a monastic setting, or in a normal life setting
    Darren Islar: brb
    nio Artful: i feel that real life seting is the write
    nio Artful: sory the right
    Wester Kiranov: Maybe next silent time you can try the nine second exercise http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Information/Hints
    Calvino Rabeni: Same with me, nio
    nio Artful: in real life it would be very interesting if we could CULTIVATE a awaken consiousnes
    Wester Kiranov: That exercise is the main method we use here
    nio Artful: then it would not become an addiction fugitive of real lifes needs
    Calvino Rabeni: That exercise is one way to cultivate
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Wester Kiranov: Apart from all other personally favorite methods of course
    nio Artful: i read the link
    Calvino Rabeni: Real needs such as what ?
    Wester Kiranov: Do you mean using meditation as an escape, nio?
    nio Artful: i believe that it is a holonic sytemic problem
    Calvino Rabeni: Give us a bit more context, about holons?
    --BELL--
    nio Artful: imy disability to awake is mine responsibility BUT it is others also and it is goverments and sience also
    Wester Kiranov: ah, holons. I love them
    Calvino Rabeni: Wester, can you elaborate on that?
    Wester Kiranov: The concept of holons was invented by Koestler and is used a lot by Ken Wilber. It basically is a way to talk about things articulating both their wholeness (hol) and their partness (-on)
    Wester Kiranov: It is meant as an alternative to thingy words like atom or system words like system
    nio Artful: ok my ideaffected a is from wilbers theory of everithing
    nio Artful: lol sory
    nio Artful: my idea is affected from ken wilber
    Wester Kiranov: i started from Wilber too, then I read Koestler as background
    Darren Islar: basically what you try to say is that there are 'things' in the environment that are part of the 'hole' thing having effect on being able to become awake yoursef
    Darren Islar: Is that about the idea?

    And then it was time to go for me. The rest stayed a bit longer.


    Wester Kiranov: But I'm sorry guys, my SO really wants to use the computer, so I guess I have to say goodbye. Please continue with the discussion, I think you can manage without me :)
    nio Artful: i believe that it is begar than one mans effort
    Wester Kiranov: Bye
    Wester Kiranov: namaste
    Calvino Rabeni: Good day Wester
    Darren Islar: bye Wester
    nio Artful: bye bye
    Calvino Rabeni: Only 2:05 until Summer :)
    Darren Islar: sorry can you say more Nio, I think I don't get it
    Darren Islar: oh you mean 'bigger'
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Darren Islar: bigger then one man's effort
    Darren Islar: I understand
    nio Artful: i have read that in systemic theory that our nevrosis is a result of the effection of the group of people he belongs
    nio Artful: we belong
    Calvino Rabeni: Another one of those Wilber theory, is that there are a whole set of different levels of development of awareness , that affect individuals, and maybe also groups
    nio Artful: if the organization is healthy it is more possible the members to be healthy too
    nio Artful: we talk about posibilities
    Darren Islar: it makes sence
    Darren Islar: but I also think that to a certain extend you can also create your own environment
    Darren Islar: with the emphasis on *to a certain extend*
    Darren Islar: but it takes a lot of effort
    nio Artful: if the total system is fake and it is competitive then the members do not cover the love needs they have so it is difficult in a jungle to feel happy and also it is difficult by your own efforts only to be awaken and stand the pain of lonliness
    Calvino Rabeni: getting hooked up with the right group, would be a big help
    Darren Islar: and the question is how motivated we are to do so
    nio Artful: yes
    --BELL--
    Darren Islar: getting 'hooked' to the 'right' things :))
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    nio Artful: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: do you remember, for instance, Yoga means to yoke or connect?
    Calvino Rabeni: connected to the right things
    nio Artful: conect i think is the meaning of yoga
    nio Artful: conection
    Darren Islar: needed to look up 'yoke', but yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it surprises some people,who only think of liberation as getting "free" as getting dis-connected
    Darren Islar: well, I don't know if it is the whole answer, but it is important
    Calvino Rabeni: Yoke is how to connect oxen to a wagon :)
    Darren Islar: :))
    Calvino Rabeni: And - for appropriate values of "right" :)
    Darren Islar: appropriate in this sentence is meaning.....
    Darren Islar: ?
    Calvino Rabeni: The lecture I went to today, was for life coaches who offer among other things, spiritual guidance -
    Calvino Rabeni: It was based partly on Wilber's theories
    Darren Islar: ah
    Calvino Rabeni: And the question was, what kind of guidance is needed for people at different spiritual levels of development
    Calvino Rabeni: that is, what would "right" be for those very different people
    Darren Islar: right
    Calvino Rabeni: and the complexity is the same as in understanding people
    Darren Islar: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: in that the advisor may be advising someone at a different level
    Calvino Rabeni: and needs therefore to have some understanding from the outside
    Calvino Rabeni: without having personal insight
    Calvino Rabeni: For example, some people would not do very well with meditation that goes for "silence"
    Calvino Rabeni: they could do well with prayer however
    Calvino Rabeni: or with some structured practice
    Calvino Rabeni: in which a form is followed
    Darren Islar: right
    nio Artful: there is another big problem........complexity and chaos theory says that a complicated system in order not to fall i chaos it needs a chaotic advisor leader more complicated than the system.........is there any human more complicated than the system? to fail in c theory
    nio Artful: teverything after the ? is mistaken types
    Calvino Rabeni: If that is true, then we need to rely on the ability of self-emergence and autopoeisis, from within the chaotic system
    Calvino Rabeni: which appears to be what happens
    Darren Islar: need to go
    nio Artful: i feel that that If that is true, then we need to rely on the ability of self-emergence and autopoeisis, from within the chaotic system is opposite of the idea that the complication in order not to fall oin chaos needs from ouyside guide and the leader must be more complicated
    Darren Islar: nice to meet you Nio
    nio Artful: ty
    Darren Islar: bye all :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Darren
    nio Artful: so i believe that we need GOD if he exists
    nio Artful: he is the only more complicated from the system and also out in some way of the system
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: Well that is an interesting mixture of paradigms, because I think for the main part, people who think the world is a complex system don't have God in the picture, and vice versa
    Calvino Rabeni: So the source of complexity, in complex systems theory, is emergence
    Calvino Rabeni: and there is no Designer or Outside, no possibility for oversight and adjustment
    Calvino Rabeni: The related question is, basically, does one trust "chaos" or not?
    Calvino Rabeni: "Not" would be to regard it as some problematic state
    Calvino Rabeni: To trust it would be to regard it as a potential reservior from which order may emerge
    Calvino Rabeni: in addition to sometimes being a destroyer of order
    Calvino Rabeni: the basic idea of "order versus chaos" is the sticking point

    (This was normal Greek but something went wrong)

    nio Artful: Μυ ενγλιση αρε νοτ ενοθγη το θνδερστανδ σορυ
    nio Artful: LOL
    Calvino Rabeni: sorry for the complex English, since it is probably not your first language :)
    nio Artful: ΜΥ english are not enough to understand sory
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, sorry nio
    Calvino Rabeni: And I have no Greek :)
    nio Artful: in a few words?
    Calvino Rabeni: a few words ... ok
    nio Artful: did you find problems in gods existing and chaos theorys?
    Calvino Rabeni: God and complex systems are usually incompatible ideas
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    nio Artful: why?
    Calvino Rabeni: and chaos can create or destroy order
    nio Artful: what kind of chaos can create?
    nio Artful: give me example please
    Calvino Rabeni: self-organized criticality
    Calvino Rabeni: Chaos usually means, we don't understand the system
    Calvino Rabeni: Example
    nio Artful: what is criticality wait pl
    Calvino Rabeni: most of the DNA in a human genome is not active for creating proteins
    Calvino Rabeni: but it plays a background role holding a source of possible variations
    Calvino Rabeni: and it holds regulation methods
    nio Artful: ok
    nio Artful: was that chaos that creates?
    Calvino Rabeni: so without the disorganized, random part, the active part wouldn not be flexible and adaptive
    Calvino Rabeni: My comment before
    Calvino Rabeni: most people believe EITHER God OR complex systems
    Calvino Rabeni: but usually not both at once
    nio Artful: i believe both
    Calvino Rabeni: I thiink that is OK too
    nio Artful: and i find nothing opposite up to know
    Calvino Rabeni: But, I have to go ...
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: we can talk again some time, I hope
    Calvino Rabeni: Now I will slip out during the pause
    nio Artful: ok ty bye
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, good night, Nio and Zal
    nio Artful: and i find no problem up to now
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye for now :)
    nio Artful: good night

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