2010.06.23 01:00 - Love, trade and other alternative lifestyles

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bolonath Crystal.

    Bolonath Crystal: namaste cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: Bolonath
    Bolonath Crystal: hello nio :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Have you met nio?
    Bolonath Crystal: no. did you?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, one time or so before this
    nio Artful: hi crystal
    Bolonath Crystal: welcome nio
    nio Artful: ty
    Bolonath Crystal: so you have been here before and know about the recording, nio?
    nio Artful: yes
    nio Artful: i was here yesterday
    Bolonath Crystal: fine
    Bolonath Crystal: what brought you to us, nio?
    nio Artful says in Mermish Sesmuna
    nio Artful: my (SESS-moo-nah): Friend of Mer pablito
    nio Artful says in Mermish Sesmuna
    nio Artful: sory my (SESS-moo-nah): Friend of Mer pablito
    nio Artful: why this strange types?
    Bolonath Crystal: looks greek
    nio Artful: i am greek
    nio Artful: but there were some problems from translator
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: Nio, do you have other activities in Second Life?
    nio Artful: no
    nio Artful: only meeting people and talk
    nio Artful: as for you?
    Bolonath Crystal: like me
    nio Artful: my first months were different
    nio Artful: i was experimenting life style opposite to my rl
    Calvino Rabeni: That seems to be a common second life experience
    nio Artful: lol yes
    nio Artful: it persuaded me more for the value of my rl attitude i had all my life
    Bolonath Crystal: so i seem to be an exception *g* i never wanted to be different from what i am in rl
    Calvino Rabeni: :))
    Calvino Rabeni: I guess that makes 2 of us Bolonath :)
    nio Artful: is that humor or you are serious?
    Calvino Rabeni: In all of SL perhaps :)
    Bolonath Crystal smiles
    Bolonath Crystal: humor is a very serious thing ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: I am serious but light hearted in that statement
    nio Artful: ok
    Bolonath Crystal: i don't see sl as an alternative to rl. rather as an extension
    Calvino Rabeni: It is the same with me, but, I know, for a lot of people, it is a kind of alternative life world
    nio Artful: but
    nio Artful: yes in rl someone may act in the way the importand for himothers wait from him
    nio Artful: but in his heart he maybe curious how it would be if could act free as from his own hearts experiance
    Fael Innovia: Hello! :)
    Bolonath Crystal: hello fael, namaste :)
    nio Artful: hello fael
    Bolonath Crystal: that's what i try to do in rl, nio
    nio Artful: for people like this sl is the place to experiment alternative life styles
    nio Artful: without hard consequences in rl
    nio Artful: results
    --BELL--
    Fael Innovia: meep! :)
    Bolonath Crystal: the expression "real life" seems to implicate somehow, that "second life" is unreal
    Bolonath Crystal: but it isn't
    nio Artful: i agree
    Bolonath Crystal: it is a kind of advanced telephone
    Fael Innovia: meep meep! :)
    Calvino Rabeni: meep Fael // I believe a lot of people do use SL to experiment in some way
    Fael Innovia: it comes naturally :)
    nio Artful: sometimes i was wondering what was my truth self whan i was acting with different way in sl to rl
    nio Artful: when
    nio Artful: lol
    Fael Innovia: I'd say neither or both :)
    Bolonath Crystal: a very fruitful question
    nio Artful: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Really, people do with it according to their life needs and experience
    Fael Innovia: SL allows you to try out things you don't do in 1st life because of fear of how others would react.
    Calvino Rabeni: And their culture - if it is conservative, they may find SL to provide some relative "freedom"
    Fael Innovia: it still doesn't help with things where you're afraid of how you, yourself, would react though.
    Calvino Rabeni: true, Fael
    Calvino Rabeni: which is a pretty big category
    Bolonath Crystal: that's strange... we are talking to real people, making (or loosing) real friends
    Fael Innovia: is that a reply to me, Bolo?
    Bolonath Crystal: yes, but not to your last sentence, fael, but to the one before
    Fael Innovia: it's got to do with the depth of the friendship.
    Bolonath Crystal: i'm slowly in typing
    Fael Innovia: you could do the same in RL too if you moved to a place where you knew no-one, but that would in some ways be even more risky.
    Fael Innovia: people are more likely to take risks with new friends than old established friends.
    Bolonath Crystal: you can do the same in real life, if you don't care to much about what people think about you :)
    nio Artful: yes old friends accept a behavour from you that thet hqve been used from you to
    Fael Innovia: SL takes out the the fear of physical harm part that is part of the risk.
    Bolonath Crystal: i am lucky to live in a surrounding where nobody tries to slap me ;)
    Bolonath Crystal: maybe because i am a rather peaceful person
    nio Artful: can you share with us your age bolo ? i am 44
    Fael Innovia: you have good surroundings Bolo :)
    Bolonath Crystal: i am 46, nio
    nio Artful: ok ty
    nio Artful: and you fael?
    Fael Innovia: I'm 29
    nio Artful: ok
    Fael Innovia: but I've found it's not just physical harm possibility that SL removes.
    Fael Innovia: someone being enraged at you in text just doesn't feel the same as someone shouting at you in front of you.
    Fael Innovia: it's not as scary.
    Calvino Rabeni: Though it may be hard to talk about, age does make a difference
    Fael Innovia: certainly :)
    Bolonath Crystal agrees
    Bolonath Crystal: we are developing
    Calvino Rabeni: Generally developing through different circumstances and stages
    Bolonath Crystal: at the age of 20 or 30 i reacted very different from now
    Calvino Rabeni: and the notion of "what's my identity" changes too
    Calvino Rabeni: same here, bolo
    nio Artful: yes sam
    --BELL--
    nio Artful: same
    Fael Innovia: Hi yogini :)
    yogini Oompa: hi:)
    Bolonath Crystal: om namah shivaya, yogini. great to have a yogini here :)
    yogini Oompa: thx a lot
    nio Artful: hi yogini
    nio Artful: hi y ogini
    yogini Oompa: but ı coulnt hear you
    yogini Oompa: yes nio calls me here
    Bolonath Crystal: have you been at a pab session before, yogini?
    yogini Oompa: no
    nio Artful: yogini is yoga teacher as well
    Bolonath Crystal: cool :)
    nio Artful says in Mermish Sesmuna
    nio Artful: good (SESS-moo-nah): Friend of Mer of mine
    Calvino Rabeni: are you a yoga teacher nio?
    nio Artful: i have been practised new age for many years
    nio Artful: but no i am not
    Fael Innovia: meep! :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I am curious about Greek culture - does it have much new age influence, or is it somewhat conservative in nature?
    nio Artful: please explain me what meep is? lol
    yogini Oompa: yes I'm teaching vinyasa style
    Fael Innovia: it's meep :)
    Calvino Rabeni: nice :)
    nio Artful: i am greek
    Fael Innovia: can't really be explained :)
    yogini Oompa: I'm from istanbul turkey
    Fael Innovia <-- Finland.
    Calvino Rabeni: I could try to explain Meep, but might do some harm :)
    nio Artful: is there a spirit a mood behind meep?
    Fael Innovia: you can only understand meep if you don't know what it means :)
    Calvino Rabeni: well part of the meep legend I think has something to do with a bird, that was always pursued by a dog, through canyons
    nio Artful: zen
    yogini Oompa: :)
    nio Artful: lol
    Bolonath Crystal: fael or cal, do you have already some new note cards to give to nio and yogini?
    nio Artful: the sound of one hand clp
    nio Artful: clap
    nio Artful: zen thought sounds like
    Fael Innovia: meep! :)
    Bolonath Crystal: ty, cal :)
    Fael Innovia: for me, most of the time, it's an expression of joy. Sometimes of confusion, sometimes objection to what someone is doing :)
    Fael Innovia: sometimes other things
    nio Artful: OK
    nio Artful: yogine we were talking about the chance of living a different or same life style in sl than in rl
    nio Artful: and the reasons
    yogini Oompa: yes just I'm thinking on it
    yogini Oompa: when I came here I begun to think
    yogini Oompa: yes nio is my reason:)
    Calvino Rabeni: :))
    yogini Oompa: first day of my sl I met with nio at the second day
    Calvino Rabeni: a good meeting :)
    Fael Innovia: meep! :)
    Calvino Rabeni: For some people SL is an opportunity for new experiences
    Calvino Rabeni: For others, an extension of RL
    --BELL--
    Bolonath Crystal: i have to go back to work... please continue to enjoy the meeting
    Bolonath Crystal: om shanti :)
    nio Artful: bye
    nio Artful: see you
    Fael Innovia: for me, SL is both, extension and a chance for new experiences.
    Calvino Rabeni: :) bye
    nio Artful: as i told you before my first months were only a rel secnd lfe lol different experiances thn rl
    nio Artful: now its extension
    Fael Innovia: if you create another account, it's possible to try it as different experience again.
    Calvino Rabeni: I find that, whereever I go, there I am found
    nio Artful: i have alt as you and lately i had 3 days returned back
    nio Artful: but i was different
    nio Artful: no bad things lool
    Fael Innovia: I find it quite funny that my experience between my alts is quite different, even though when creating this one and even now, I'm still making sure it's quite obvious who my other account is for anyone who's met me :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Last time Nio was here, we were talking about the influences that our surroundng contexts (culture, people) have upon us
    nio Artful: yes
    nio Artful: system theory
    Calvino Rabeni: but there's also the internal variations of different "sub" personalities
    Calvino Rabeni: which naturally, could be seen as "outside" things living within
    nio Artful: yes
    Fael Innovia smiles.
    Calvino Rabeni: I didn't "invent" those subs within me :)
    Fael Innovia: we're very adaptive :)
    nio Artful: do you have subs?
    Fael Innovia: of course, everyone does, no?
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd say, most do ...
    Calvino Rabeni: for example, those different responses fitted into Fael's A'ts
    Calvino Rabeni: are what I'd call subs
    nio Artful: we are as fael sed adaptive to different sircumstances and people
    Calvino Rabeni: forgive if I distort things, Fael(s) :)
    Fael Innovia: not so far :)
    nio Artful: me too
    nio Artful: i also have subs
    Calvino Rabeni: One could call it adaptation ; but what is the source ?
    nio Artful: our brains construction neyronic net allows that
    Calvino Rabeni: For example; those subs could be like whole patterns taken in
    Calvino Rabeni: almost like being invaded; or being downloaded into
    Calvino Rabeni: we have a partial role in those constructions
    Fael Innovia: that's how we function with other people.
    Calvino Rabeni: but a lot of them are defined externally
    Fael Innovia: the patterns we take in allow us to predict what they will do
    Fael Innovia: and to learn from them
    --BELL--
    nio Artful: YOU HAVE A KEY WORD OVER YOUR HEAD CALVINO
    Fael Innovia: meep?
    nio Artful: caltivator
    Fael Innovia: meep! :)
    Calvino Rabeni: the title "Cultivator" ?
    nio Artful: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: It is part of the PlayAsBeing group
    nio Artful: systems ans persons we need thayt
    nio Artful: that
    nio Artful: cultivation
    Calvino Rabeni: Indeed true :)
    nio Artful: and cultivator
    Calvino Rabeni: By the way - sorry for the aside - sometimes IM's don't work due to some bug
    Calvino Rabeni: it could be that Fael sent me one, but I did not receive it
    Fael Innovia: I sent you several :)
    Calvino Rabeni: @nio, I like that word "cultivate" and what it means
    nio Artful: me too
    Calvino Rabeni: @fael, I thought so - sorry, I can't get IM's from you
    nio Artful: i belive that things take time to grow up
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe we can arrange a different message path
    Calvino Rabeni: Nio, I've noticed that also
    nio Artful: even awaken concousnes we were talking about yesterday in a sytem of people
    Calvino Rabeni: and if one can keep that in mind, it makes more things possible
    nio Artful: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: There are a lot of things that "grow" in the dark, like a seed inside the earth, and only later become visible
    nio Artful: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: or a process that has subtle signs, not obvious
    nio Artful: nice example
    Fael Innovia: yes, seeds :)
    Calvino Rabeni: this is one reason for cultivating awareness - which is to be able to percieve those things
    Calvino Rabeni: influences, qualities, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: TY for that notecard, Fael
    Fael Innovia: meep! :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, Illyar works fine for me, but Innovia is muted somehow
    Fael Innovia: quite strange that IMs work in one direction like that :) It can't be mute either, you wouldn't see my text here otherwise.
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, it is some bug
    Calvino Rabeni: I think about how to cultivate the awareness of cultivation :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Many of these things are not "localized"
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: by which I mean, they aren't specific skills that live inside a box, and have narrow effects
    nio Artful: integrity
    nio Artful: a cetain skill to cultivate someone
    nio Artful: quality
    nio Artful: certain
    Calvino Rabeni: Cultivation is a "farming" metaphor
    Calvino Rabeni: you plant a seed, water it, then ... wait
    nio Artful: true
    Calvino Rabeni: and have some faith
    Calvino Rabeni: but also know from experience, what works
    nio Artful: that is what i vision when listen it
    nio Artful: we may also not only put seeds in one feild but inmore to have more possibilities of succes
    Calvino Rabeni: there are animals that hide food - birds and squirrels - they have a very good memory where they left those little piles of food
    Calvino Rabeni: later they know where to look
    nio Artful: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: with people, the question is, how to know when some "planting of seed" will be useful
    Calvino Rabeni: it isn't easy
    Calvino Rabeni: so we follow conventions that we have learned
    Calvino Rabeni: like studying - reading, assuming learning will occur
    Calvino Rabeni: or saving money
    Calvino Rabeni: or doing a little exercise, knowing the body will become stronger, even though it is maybe much later
    Calvino Rabeni: BUT ... outside of those conventional things, ....
    nio Artful: yes?
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance, spiritual practices that are not recognized as useful by other people
    Calvino Rabeni: so it takes some good skills of observation, and maybe some faith, to know if they are good or not
    Calvino Rabeni: or maybe self-confidence; trust in intuition
    Calvino Rabeni: or taking the word of some "teacher" or mentor
    Calvino Rabeni: following outside advice, when one cannot see for oneself
    nio Artful: or vanity lol
    Calvino Rabeni: vanity - would take you only so far ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Looking good :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Not a bad thing at all
    Calvino Rabeni: but, what the cost?
    nio Artful: i mean that wrong values would tke us out of the maturity rod
    Calvino Rabeni: good result, but is it worth it?
    nio Artful: its a subject again of what is real good and bad
    Calvino Rabeni: Nothing in itself :)
    Fael Innovia: yep, to try out for yourself is the key. :)
    --BELL--
    Fael Innovia: then you can decide if it's worth it :)
    nio Artful: in relation to our lifes quality
    Calvino Rabeni: In appropriate measure, for good reasons and motivations, and in balance
    nio Artful: yes
    nio Artful: some times i think that the opposite of love is commersial trade
    Fael Innovia smiles.
    nio Artful: i dont speak acurate
    Calvino Rabeni: heheh
    Calvino Rabeni: I can think of more than one way to read that
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems true
    Calvino Rabeni: love doesn't seek gain or measure
    Calvino Rabeni: love is reckless
    Calvino Rabeni: love doesn't calcualte
    Calvino Rabeni: *calculate
    nio Artful: yes
    nio Artful: thing if our parents asked money for their serves
    nio Artful: servises
    Calvino Rabeni: Can I quote a poem?
    nio Artful: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: If you want what visible reality can give you, you're an employee. If you want the unseen world, you're not living your truth. Both wishes are foolish, but you'll be forgiven for forgetting That what you really want is love's confusing joy. And gamble everything for love, if you're a true human being. If not, leave this gathering. Half-heartedness doesn't reach into majesty. You set out to find God, but then you keep stopping for long periods
    Calvino Rabeni: at mean spirited roadhouses. ~Rumi
    Calvino Rabeni: the poem had both Love and commercialism
    nio Artful: wait i translate pl
    nio Artful: oh great yesss
    --BELL--
    nio Artful: thing if our body members did noit TRUST-because it is also a matter of trust- brain and other parts of body and we had to pay between the body parts ...like i want paymant to wahs the face ...hands
    nio Artful: wash
    Calvino Rabeni: that is interesting to see it in the body
    nio Artful: when i dont trust or i have the illusion of sepaeretness i want here and now a reward for my servises
    nio Artful: because as in the body same in organization
    nio Artful: yes
    nio Artful: now if the truth is in real love....
    nio Artful: how it would be natural to find the truth trough trade books?
    Fael Innovia: commercial trade is systematized. The trade that happens in our body is more flexible. resources go where they are most needed.
    Fael Innovia: not to the part that can pay for them the best.
    Calvino Rabeni: Not too natural? But possible
    Fael Innovia: oh wait, controlled is better word.
    Fael Innovia: than systematized
    nio Artful: only as a part of a still growing up cultivation
    Fael Innovia: systematized trade tries to control that people get what they earn.
    Fael Innovia: needs don't really come into the equation
    nio Artful: but a matture organization of love shares with volounteer spirit the knowlidge and heeling
    nio Artful: and free offres of members could motivate this org in an trade enviroment
    nio Artful: but is contradiction to BUY a book for real love lol
    nio Artful: or to pay for awake the frozen heart in love as a heeling from a group or someone
    nio Artful: if that one felt i am him he would give free
    nio Artful: as memberes in family of love
    nio Artful: when ever i was in clean awaken conciousnes i had onlky one desire.........to serve my other selfs in free volounteer spirit and in a way not to be seen humble serve
    nio Artful: so i realy separate things i read and orgs i meet by the let say judge of volounteer freeoffer spirit
    nio Artful: i dont trust trade is opposite to love as rumi told
    nio Artful: in the poem
    Calvino Rabeni: I understand that
    nio Artful: if i love i organize i give me excitment others and free offers comes and volounteer spirit to make the heeling work
    nio Artful: free books free all
    nio Artful: and free offers
    --BELL--
    nio Artful: if members take the love they need they give free offers to the organiztion to survive in trade enviroment
    nio Artful: sory
    Fael Innovia: meep! :)
    Calvino Rabeni: hehe, when I say
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: it means
    Fael Innovia: meep! :)
    Calvino Rabeni: meep!
    Fael Innovia giggles.
    nio Artful: brb lounch time back in 10 min ty
    Calvino Rabeni: nio, are you thinking about spiritual communities, or commercial?
    Calvino Rabeni: OK
    Fael Innovia: or perhaps community that doesn't yet exist :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: one word for that is "gift economy"
    Fael Innovia: yes :)
    Calvino Rabeni: it refers to a new way of doing things, that is not so resolutely committed
    Calvino Rabeni: to all the assumptions that are part of commercial economics
    Fael Innovia: yep, debt is not a single person's burden. All debt is shared by everyone.
    Calvino Rabeni: It is hard to do because the assumptions are so familiar, but I believe it is worth opening them up to notice
    nio Artful: spiritual communities
    nio Artful: active in trade enviroment
    nio Artful: with projects of volounteer spirit
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: We live in an economic world, like the fish lives in water
    Calvino Rabeni: not really seeing it
    Calvino Rabeni: but you are thinking about it Nio
    Fael Innovia: meep! :)
    nio Artful: i paid for ken wilbers book 30 euros in greece i learned many things and got impressed but i dont wait many things from him to say the truth
    nio Artful: i want to see in rl his work with organized volounters
    Fael Innovia: open source projects are perhaps best examples of organised volunteers so far.
    nio Artful: sharing their time and toil to serve others and help spiritually
    nio Artful: nice yes
    nio Artful: but i mean in a spiritual things about the meaning of life etc
    Fael Innovia: PaB is kind of like that :)
    nio Artful: we were talking yesterday that we need a good powerfull responsible gorvement of
    Fael Innovia: and I understand some Buddhist centers too.
    nio Artful: yes in athens i have been in one
    nio Artful: you could give volounteer help instead of pay for heelings
    Fael Innovia: that's trade, really
    nio Artful: in jahovas witnesses org also i had seen that
    Fael Innovia: just accepting another currency too
    nio Artful: but i was saying that we need goverment science our responcibility and others to make a mature comunity of love with awaken constantly consiousnes ...and this is a matter of cultivation also
    nio Artful: but all this must go in the way of no trsde in order not to be face
    nio Artful: fake
    nio Artful: no trade
    nio Artful: sory
    nio Artful: in the way of no commercial
    nio Artful: profit mmm destroys rhe nice spirit
    nio Artful: is a search of personal power
    nio Artful: notrue love
    nio Artful: its a sigh of sllepy emtional radars
    nio Artful: emotional radars of love
    Fael Innovia: you're getting a bit difficult to understand at times nio.
    Fael Innovia: too many typoes :)
    --BELL--
    nio Artful: as i destroy english lol
    Fael Innovia: meep! :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I found the english OK :)
    nio Artful: i am sloopy
    Calvino Rabeni: There is a book - about understanding the effect of economics on community - not sure if it is translated to greek or finnish
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Dismal-Science.../dp/0674047222
    Fael Innovia: I read english just fine :)
    Calvino Rabeni: but it is about that water we trading fish swim in
    Calvino Rabeni: sure Fael, you are very fluent
    Calvino Rabeni: and yet, I'd guess, it might be more work ?
    Fael Innovia: actually not :)
    Fael Innovia: if it was Japanese, then it would be
    Fael Innovia: I use English more than Finnish these days :P
    Calvino Rabeni: Lucky me :)
    Fael Innovia: meep? you?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I have the fortune that, so many people do the work for me, to bridge the communication gap to speak my language
    Fael Innovia: haha :)
    nio Artful: nice of you to have such an apreciation
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I do
    Calvino Rabeni: But, if I visit FInnland or Greece, I don't want to be catered to :)
    Fael Innovia: no chance of not being catered to :)
    Calvino Rabeni: unfortunately
    Fael Innovia: it's like some of the people I know have found visiting Japan. The locals insist on speaking English even though my friends would've been able to converse with them much more easily with Japanese :)
    nio Artful: before 15 years i had been in italy ...i was almost lost no one was spaking english
    nio Artful: but now i find many friends from italy we speak english
    nio Artful: in sl
    nio Artful: speaking
    nio Artful: lol
    Fael Innovia: the average English skill in Japan (at least for pronounciation) tends to be rather horrid I hear.
    nio Artful: i understant much easier people from usa than england when they talk
    Fael Innovia: most of the television series I've seen are from USA so that's true for me too :)
    nio Artful: i found many people from uk fast and no clear
    nio Artful: yes lol
    nio Artful: pablito is an example
    nio Artful: i asked him for faster convarsation to use mic
    nio Artful: i could not understand him
    Fael Innovia giggles.
    nio Artful: but i had with many people from usa life chat and i could understand them
    Fael Innovia: yes, it's always a bit unclear if you can make sense of someone's speech
    Fael Innovia: text writing it much easier :)
    Fael Innovia: and reading
    Fael Innovia: especially when the grammar is off
    nio Artful: lol
    --BELL--
    Fael Innovia: well, time for me to move to other things :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, time for me to go also
    nio Artful: ty for sharing with as your time and thoughts
    Fael Innovia: have fun nio, Cal :)
    nio Artful: yes bye
    Calvino Rabeni: I enjoyed the conversation - thanks - see you later :)
    nio Artful: take care
    nio Artful: me too bye
    Fael Innovia waves.

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