2010.06.23 13:00 - A Teacher Would Inspire Not Lecture

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.


    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Gaya!
    Gaya Ethaniel: How are you?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Wol :)
    Fefonz Quan: great. good to see you, long time...
    Wol Euler: hello gaya, fef
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes same here :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Wol
    Gaya Ethaniel: I like the colour of your dress Wol, pretty :)
    Fefonz Quan: INfact i've never seen this avi gaya
    Wol Euler: ty :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh?
    Fefonz Quan: and i second that for wol's dress
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Fefonz Quan: last time was the rabit i think
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... I changed in Dec last year.
    Fefonz Quan: ah, so maybe i'm wrong...
    Gaya Ethaniel: :P well human now ...
    Wol Euler: so long ago?
    Gaya Ethaniel: mhm :)
    Wol Euler: I thought I'd seen the rabbit fairly recently
    Fefonz Quan: no complaints here
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes due to popular demands :)
    Wol Euler: ah
    Wol Euler: doing favours for the public
    Gaya Ethaniel: :D
    Fefonz Quan: Wol, i saw you are planning a new workshop?
    Wol Euler: indeed
    Wol Euler: about "the SL-ness of SL" :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Wol Euler: investigating what SL is, how it works, what its effects are.
    Wol Euler: through the lens of character, identity and appearance
    Fefonz Quan: sounds fascinating
    Wol Euler: I hope so!
    Gaya Ethaniel nods :)
    Wol Euler: I find it fascinating, and I hope that wil come across
    Fefonz Quan: so do you plan to bring your own material/schedule, or go with the flow
    Wol Euler: both :)
    Wol Euler: I have been assembling a list of topics and exercises, but will also let things develop in discussion
    Wol Euler: if somebody brings up a great example, we'll continue to talk abouthtat in the next session
    Wol Euler: and so on
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Qt :)
    Wol Euler: buona sera qt
    Qt Core: hi all, 'sera Wol
    Fefonz Quan: bon soir Qt
    Fefonz Quan: and are you closing details on the October retreat?
    Wol Euler: closed.
    Fefonz Quan: (->Wol)
    Wol Euler: all decided except who's attending
    Wol Euler: places are still available!
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i would love too, but not sure the circumstances will let me
    Wol Euler nods
    Qt Core: :) same for me, as they say it nowadays... it's complicated ;-)
    Wol Euler: qt, there is a direct train from Milan through the Alps to Stuttgart :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Wol Euler: just by the way :)
    Fefonz Quan: in wouldn't you complicated though :)
    Qt Core: the problems is the logisting behind the home door, not outside
    Fefonz Quan: fds
    Fefonz Quan: use*
    Qt Core: btw, Wol in red ?!
    Wol Euler grins
    Fefonz Quan: greens :)
    Wol Euler: you haven't been following my changes?
    Wol Euler pouts sadly.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Qt Core: sadly i rarely notice attires and haircuts and got several embarassing moments for that
    Wol Euler: I started a project on my birthday, every day for a month I would wear something from my inventory that I'd never worn in public before
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah :)
    Qt Core: (especially in rl)
    Wol Euler: and photograph them for my Flickr stream (Bleu suggested that part)
    Qt Core: nice idea
    Fefonz Quan: ah, cool! when was your birthday if i may?
    Wol Euler: june 7th
    Wol Euler: so this is day 17
    Fefonz Quan: ah, 20th here :)
    Wol Euler: ah!°
    Wol Euler: belated happy birthday, fellow Gemini
    Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
    Gaya Ethaniel: Happy belated birthday Fefonz :)
    Qt Core: nice day, a lot of light for some outside dinner to celebrate ;-)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Fefonz Quan: :-)
    Wol Euler: there's a lot of celebration in the streets here right now
    Wol Euler: apparently the German soccer team has defeated its opponent
    Wol Euler shrugs.
    Qt Core: it was 1-0 against Ghana a few minutes ago
    Fefonz Quan: thanks Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Oz is out ... commiserations.
    Fefonz Quan: oz?
    Gaya Ethaniel: So England vs Germany hey? That'd be something.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Australia
    Wol Euler: wow, that's quite an av Zaldaan
    Fefonz Quan: hello zldan
    Fefonz Quan: Zaldaan*
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zaldaan :)
    Qt Core: Hi Zaldaan
    Fefonz Quan: have you been here before, if i may ask?
    Wol Euler: many times, yes :)
    Fefonz Quan: great, me too sparse lately i guess
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I just got ejected and banned from Happy Island when someone was sharing, openly, about their disease, and continued to do so, so I asked questions and he was very forthcoming. So I began researching on the condition -- which is terminal, but likely not irreversible. Eventually the people got uncomfortable and let me know, so I informed them I would stop, and did immediately.
    Wol Euler: huh
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Then I was explaining how I helped someone with MS recently; and she is doing much better (it seems the Dr.'s dose was way too high and caused her to be hospitalized, but they didn't fix the dosage).
    Zaldaan Sirnah: That's when they kicked me out.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I'm so upset -- people do not love each other.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: They let everyone suffer on their way to their graves, when research is at their fingertips.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Because talking about it makes them uncomfortable.
    Fefonz Quan: (MS?)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Multiple Sclerosis
    Qt Core: not judging, but maybe they was thinking your help wasn't backed by a medical degree (or not)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: hence the MS explanation -- it's important to do your own research, which this guy wasn't aware he could do, and has other important issues to deal with on that regard (regarding death-wish)
    Fefonz Quan: maybe they were intimidated by the Dragon\
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Doctors are trained in a certain way and it's important to understand that there are problems with it.
    Wol Euler: hallo bert
    Fefonz Quan: hey Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: hallo wol - hey everybody ! :-) fef ! :-)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: This doctor, of my friend, prescribed her a super high dose of something which led to her going numb in half her body.
    Qt Core: but still, better than no training)
    Qt Core: hi Bert
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Bertram :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Right, a skilled surgeon can remove the wrong limb, while someone not-skilled would not do it at all.
    Bertram Jacobus: hey hoo qt and gaya :-)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: No, doctors are humans and it's important to realise that.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: They are a valuable resource, but they are not "gods". Too many people have doctor worship.
    Fefonz Quan: It is a sensitive issue though
    Bertram Jacobus: ("my doctor is an alien") - sounds like a song title ... ;o)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: This doesn't mean I do not value them at all -- but people must value themselves enough to learn about themselves, to know themselves.
    Qt Core: sure Zal (i think i'm mostly speaking at a statistical level, not on a one case basis)
    Gaya Ethaniel shrugs ... none of my business.
    Fefonz Quan: (my alien is a Doctor - hello Spock :))
    Wol Euler: :)
    Qt Core: if they don't become alienated doc everything goes ;-)
    Fefonz Quan: I agree doctors are not gods, but people want, sometimes need to trust them in order to maintain there sanity
    Zaldaan Sirnah: sometimes you have no option but to trust.
    Fefonz Quan: So when you shake this boat, it should be done very jently
    Gaya Ethaniel: Even well-intended advices, one would be extra cautious about even opening a discussion on such a issue Zaldaan.
    Fefonz Quan: people are afraid enough when you question tiny regular believes they have, let alone when it's about their health
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I didn't open it.
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's an easy way to shrug off responsiblities.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I wasn't discussing the issue of doctors being brainwashed.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: He was discussing his condition, I was asking questions. He showed he had misunderstanding about his condition so I was gathering and helping him to understand the details.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: He has a problem with his heart valve, but there's mixed information about it being the valve or the sinoatrial node cells (which generally trigger the heartbeat)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Anyway, when they mentioned the discomfort I stopped.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sorry anyhow how it turned out Zaldaan as you only meant to be helpful.
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Qt Core: but things like that are sure material for IMs or conferences
    Zaldaan Sirnah: He was only talking voice and I didn't know if I could do voice in IM.
    Wol Euler: hello darren
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Darren :)
    Qt Core: hi Darren
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Darren
    Darren Islar: hi everyone :)
    Darren Islar: so hapy to see you, that I made a jump in the air :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I have good reasons for everything I do, generally. People are deficient in love and understanding.
    Qt Core: everyone has good reason for his/her doing, it is the mutual understanding of those the problem, usually
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: People take the liberty of oppressing others on the excuse that they are doing someone a favor.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: The Qur'an states, "fight against oppression, and oppression harms not only those who are oppressed."
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well I don't want to be categorised as people who are deficient in love and understanding. I reject such a label!
    Qt Core: until we get god status i think we are
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Fefonz Quan: I agree with Gaya here
    Fefonz Quan: and join the unwilling to be categorized as people what soever
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Qt Core: but still we can do our best ;-)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Gaya, people out in society :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Not you.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well it's a huge generalisation ...
    Darren Islar: it is Gaya, but I think what Zal is trying to do is to pick up on a pattern that society shows, one of many, but maybe an important one
    Gaya Ethaniel: I could be one of the people who are deficient in love and understanding. Who knows Zaldaan, we don't know each other. And there always is potential for me to slip into indifference and ignorance.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I find such a view actually unhelpful in being helpful :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: We all have some amount of that with us -- so we can understand each other.
    Fefonz Quan: I think that aboce (or below) the generalization, even if someone is lacking some love or understanding, putting it against him is not so helpful
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Fefonz Quan: people(!) are what they are, including their limitations.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Looking at a person or the world through such a lense inenvitably limits whatever interaction there may be and any potential goods that can come from it.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: It's selfishness, spoildness, ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: good*
    Fefonz Quan: it's a little like a teacher blaming his student for not succeeding
    Gaya Ethaniel: !
    Zaldaan Sirnah: they don't get what they desire (not true heart's desires, but shallow), and then they take action against others.
    Gaya Ethaniel: A teacher would inspire not lecture.
    Gaya Ethaniel: And be patient and encouraging not criticise.
    Fefonz Quan: yes!
    Darren Islar: but if you start to learn somethng about the patterns a student shows, it becomes easier to deal with it
    Fefonz Quan: indeed, but then you may want to learn not only the pattern, but its cause
    Darren Islar: I am not that open and enlightened that I can understand myself or others or the world around me without defining some patterns
    Darren Islar: sure Fonz
    Fefonz Quan: defining and blaming are two different things
    Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed
    Darren Islar: hmmm, there you could be right
    Fefonz Quan: a little like the difference between pity and compassion
    Gaya Ethaniel: Understanding is one thing but criticising is something else, unnecessary, counter effective.
    Qt Core: i got Zal messages as no one has full love or knowledge/understanding, not as some has none
    Darren Islar: the problem is, that Zal might have a pattern, why he is expressing himself the way he is, maybe meaning not what you are hearing
    Darren Islar: I don't know that
    Qt Core: but then i my lack in understanding ;-)
    Qt Core: may
    Darren Islar: bit if it is about compassion, then maybe we should find out what he really means
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Pattern: I've seen many times when someone is willing to be helped, and I have helped MANY more than just them, but others step in thinking they are powerful guardians, and get in the way of that help.
    Fefonz Quan: if this points to us, i wonder in the way of what help we stand (so we can make way :))
    Gaya Ethaniel wonders if helping can become addictive.
    Darren Islar: I guess everything can, but weird you are mentioning that now
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Fefonz Quan: I do understand that when one tries to help another, and the other somehow refuses/fails to get that help, it can be very frustrating
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Some people can be imbalanced in such things, Gaya. I don't do it for that -- I have deep dread of consequences of bad advice.
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's a point that came up in another meeting recently ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think when one helps, one needs to look out carefully at what if any agendas are invovled. It's hard to see.
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Darren Islar: true, goes for everybody
    Darren Islar: and getting frustrated is not the point btw, looking for you own hidden agenda's si more interesting. Anger and frustration can point to those hidden agenda's, as indifference can be
    Wol Euler nods
    Gaya Ethaniel nods.
    Fefonz Quan: trice
    Gaya Ethaniel: One can care but decides not to get involved too much because one doesn't have capacity or knowledge etc.
    Gaya Ethaniel: That may appear as indifferent to some but not the case.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Time to go :) Bye everyone!
    Qt Core: bye Gaya
    Darren Islar: bye Gaya :)
    Wol Euler: bye gaya, take care
    Fefonz Quan: and apart from sheer knowledge, the ways of communuicating it and interacting are of great importance
    Gaya Ethaniel: True Fefonz :)
    Darren Islar: it certainly helps :))
    Zaldaan Sirnah: The guy added me as a friend right before I was booted. Regardless I could maintain communication with him.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: What upsets me is that people take the same behavior in real life, in ways that lead to people's suffering and death.
    Fefonz Quan: i agree.
    Wol Euler: 'night fef, take care
    Darren Islar: bye Fonz :)
    Fefonz Quan: good night all, it is a very interesting and subtlle conversation
    Fefonz Quan waves
    Qt Core: 'night Fef
    Darren Islar waves at the poeple on the other side of the pond :)
    Wol Euler grins and waves back
    Qt Core: ;)
    Qt Core: waves trough the pond
    Darren Islar: :)
    Wol Euler: It's always worth noticing when something or someone pushes one of your buttons, and you start reacting strongly.
    Wol Euler: There is a lesson about yourself waiting to be learned, in that strong feeling.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Very interesting.
    Darren Islar: yes
    Wol Euler: of course, it's hard to be that mindful when you are being angry :)
    Darren Islar: no, butit helps to notice afterwards
    Wol Euler nods.
    Darren Islar: some day you will notice when it happens
    Darren Islar: in Buddhism there is even a procedure for that
    Darren Islar: hi Ara
    Darren Islar: congrats :))
    Wol Euler: hello ara
    Qt Core: hi Ara, Mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya
    Wol Euler: hello mick
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Darren, for?
    Darren Islar: you notice it, you generate compassion for the other one (and for yourself), you are sorry (that is not pitiying yourself) and you think of how you can handle that different the next time
    Darren Islar: hi Mick
    Darren Islar: and you drop it :)))
    Qt Core: then, if too much time pass do the same mistake and got doubly angry when remembering it is the second time ;-)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Darren Islar: or after doing that for a while, noticing that you start to notice it earlier
    arabella Ella: hiya
    Darren Islar: and start to feel that compassion can work
    Mickorod Renard: hi Ara
    Darren Islar: what you refer to QT is how we do this in the West
    Darren Islar: we sometimes have a way of getting angry with our selves
    Qt Core: well, i was joking a little too
    Darren Islar: this procedure is meant not to do so
    Darren Islar: and if you do, then you start all over again :))))
    Darren Islar: I know QT, but is is still an important point
    Qt Core: the classic forget (yourself) but not forgot
    Qt Core: forgive
    Wol Euler nods
    Darren Islar: yes
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I had an issue with this some time back
    Zaldaan Sirnah: West? How might you propose the Eastern practice be a part of you?
    Darren Islar: and I need to say, I guess I'm mostly talking to myself :))
    Darren Islar: you can learn Zal, slowly
    Wol Euler: :)
    Darren Islar: and of course not denying your background is important
    Darren Islar: but a procedure like this can grow on you
    Darren Islar: and make you les jugdemental
    Darren Islar: *less
    Darren Islar: but it is not about starting to think like an eastern person
    Darren Islar: it is about what you can do with it
    Darren Islar: adn everyone has his own obstacles
    Wol Euler: true
    Qt Core: mostly DIY obstacle ;-)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: That could be a good TV show.
    Darren Islar: DIY??
    Wol Euler: Do It Yourself (homemade)
    arabella Ella: do it yoursef?
    Qt Core: do it yourself, like in hobby woodwork
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I'd want to make it a comedy but it would just be a satire I guess, and kinda sad.
    Darren Islar: ah
    Zaldaan Sirnah: All the DIY problems.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I love DIY solutions -- they are a part of my every day life -- actual practical engineering and materials.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: For my name isn't Zaldaan Sirnah...!
    Darren Islar: :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: For or or?
    Qt Core: i would only get (and i got it years ago) a sore thumb with everyting DIY
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Either way I thinkt hat cliche is phrased strangely.
    Darren Islar: which cliche?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: "for my name isn't..."
    Wol Euler frowns. It's usually "*or* my name isn't X"
    Darren Islar: ah
    Zaldaan Sirnah: That's what I thought.. and now that you say it it sounds the proper direction.
    Wol Euler: as in "I will conquer Mount Everest, or my name isn't Sherpa Tensing"
    Mickorod Renard: well,,noone else can really sort your thoughts out
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Distracted and shouldn't be messing with shallow meaning of words is my indicator at the moment.
    Wol Euler: :)
    Darren Islar: closing ranks :)
    Darren Islar: hmmmm
    Wol Euler: come and join us, ara
    arabella Ella: ok coming
    Darren Islar: I felt bad :)
    arabella Ella: why Darren?
    Qt Core: and symmetry too
    Darren Islar: because i was leaving you alone
    arabella Ella: owwwww
    arabella Ella: how sweet
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I love that there are cushions under the water.
    arabella Ella: LOL
    Wol Euler: my dears, I fear that I must move on. Places to go, people to see, all that stuff.
    Darren Islar: wet trousers Zal :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: By Wol :)
    Wol Euler: goodnight, take care
    arabella Ella: oh bye Wol good to c u
    Qt Core: bye Wol, have fun
    Darren Islar: bye Wol :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Wol,,nice to see ya
    Darren Islar: now I stay put!!
    arabella Ella: LOL
    arabella Ella: i did not catch what you were discussing but ...
    arabella Ella: as i came in at the end
    Darren Islar: QT founda way :)
    arabella Ella: when you spoke of DIY
    arabella Ella: i wondered
    arabella Ella: could we overcome DIY problems by having mentors?
    Qt Core: like in people that already had that problem ? ;-)
    Darren Islar: I would recommend one to QT so he doesn't need to get another blue thumb
    arabella Ella: i did not get what the problem was Qt
    arabella Ella: could you perhaps say what it was?
    Qt Core: every personal one, but i hinted at a trouble with my thumb and an hammer
    arabella Ella nods
    arabella Ella: what i mean is
    arabella Ella: here at PAB we are now very much a peer led community
    Darren Islar: it is not always easy to detect your own negative patterns yourself
    arabella Ella: yes
    Darren Islar: I don't like that
    arabella Ella: what dont you like?
    Qt Core: so all the relationship master-disciple
    arabella Ella: others pointing out your negative qualities?
    Darren Islar: to be a peer led community
    Qt Core: from gurus to priest to teacher
    Darren Islar: I think it is good to think for ourselfs, don't get me wrong
    arabella Ella: yes i think i agree with you there and know what you mean
    Darren Islar: but we discuss such issues and topics, that I think one might need some help
    arabella Ella: and perhaps this group could get more direction if each of us was somehow linked to a mentor but more on an equal footing basis rather than master disciple
    Darren Islar: because a lot of those topics are not to be found in our daily patterns
    arabella Ella: eexactly
    Darren Islar: nor do we have a background on how to approach them
    arabella Ella: yes a lot is either DIY or trial and error
    arabella Ella: or ignoring problems and moving on to other stuff
    arabella Ella: or simply getting lost in the woods
    Darren Islar: yes, and you can also draw the wrong conclusions and getting stuck years later
    arabella Ella: yes
    Darren Islar: but I guess no-one in PaB is up to the challenge
    Qt Core: as everyone has/had his/her share of problems and solutions everyone could be the master... of his/her solved issues to people that just got that specific one
    arabella Ella: i like the openness and the autonomy but i think it would help a great deal for each of us (whoever wishes) to be assigned a mentor to meet every so often to go over difficulties
    Darren Islar: Ideal PaB should be a community as you describe Ara
    Darren Islar: but not everyone has a teacher or a practise
    arabella Ella: there was a time around 3 or 4 months ago when Pema has suggested three or four people as mentors, the ones i remember were Storm and Wol
    Mickorod Renard: I didnt think |Pab was designed to be a self help group?
    arabella Ella: i dont mean a self hep group mick
    arabella Ella: but we work on being
    Darren Islar: I don't see anyone stepping in Mick
    arabella Ella: and practice
    arabella Ella: and both for being and practice it would be nice at least from my point of view to have a mentor
    Darren Islar: which are huge, huge, huge issues, not to be taken lightly
    arabella Ella: as otherwise i feel it takes me a bit too long to learn stuff ... at this stage at least
    Qt Core: maybe my speaking about issues and theyr solutions may have hinted something like that, it wasn't my intention
    arabella Ella: i missed most of that Qt except for your sore thumb :)
    Qt Core: :)
    Mickorod Renard: Qt,,no problem there,,but I saw an opening to purge a question
    Darren Islar: oh QT we all have a way to pick up things and make it our own to put out what worries us
    Darren Islar: so don't worry :)))
    Darren Islar: but I see what you mean Ara
    Darren Islar: in to me that is a big issue too
    Mickorod Renard: but our openness and anonymity to some extent alows us a nice opportunity to share experiences
    Mickorod Renard: issues from past and present act like mirrorrs for all of us to look in
    Mickorod Renard: from another perspective,,things look diferent
    Mickorod Renard: so we do help each other
    Darren Islar: you're right Mick,but I think what we try to do her goesis beyond that
    arabella Ella: and Mick i think sometimes we try to help each other but it may be like the blind leading the blind
    arabella Ella: which could be counterproductive
    Darren Islar: yes
    Mickorod Renard: I dont know idf anyone is conciously trying to help ,,as in like a doctor
    Mickorod Renard: or mechanic
    Mickorod Renard: I think there is a real risk that some topics on SL could make people go completely whacky
    arabella Ella: which topics Mick?
    Darren Islar: here or on sl in general
    Mickorod Renard: I wouldnt want to be deflamatory
    Mickorod Renard: but a scientific approach would destine many topics as rubbish based on lack of proof
    Qt Core: :-)
    arabella Ella: yet Mick Pema is a scientist
    arabella Ella: and Kira is run by some scientists too
    Mickorod Renard: I wasnt directing my thoughts at Pab,,
    Mickorod Renard: nor Pema
    Darren Islar: I don't know if some guidance is meant as necassarily being scientific
    Darren Islar: it is not to me
    arabella Ella: yet Mick your comments could be taken as directed towards anything philosophical right?
    arabella Ella: or spiritual?
    arabella Ella: or ethical?
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    arabella Ella: yet Mick if you have a look at the broad range of disciplines or topics available to humanity
    arabella Ella: they range from hard science to very very ... how should i say ... fuzzy
    Mickorod Renard: phone
    Darren Islar: nice: fuzzy :))
    arabella Ella: yet even science now include 'fuzzy logic'
    Darren Islar: (seeing a large nice fured animal in front of me :))
    arabella Ella: LOL
    arabella Ella: Gilles?
    arabella Ella: (joking)
    Darren Islar: heheh
    Darren Islar: soft fur!!
    arabella Ella: and virtual too
    Darren Islar: hmmm, I'm afraid so :))
    Darren Islar: need to go
    Darren Islar: the clock stroke twelf
    Mickorod Renard: bye darren
    arabella Ella: good night darren :)
    Darren Islar: bye everyone :)
    Qt Core: 'night Darren
    arabella Ella: like cinderella
    arabella Ella: i must go too as it is now past midnight
    arabella Ella: and before i go
    arabella Ella: would like to wish Qt's country best of luck for tomorrow's match
    Mickorod Renard: nite nite ara
    arabella Ella: nite
    Qt Core: ty, and sleep well
    Mickorod Renard: me too qt,,good luck
    Qt Core: losing would be more fun (reading the sport newspapers titles)
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    Mickorod Renard: well,,every game england plays stresses me so badly I wish i never watched
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,i must head to bed.....see u soon,,sleep well
    Qt Core: i'm watching very little of it, got bored superfast at this edition
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Qt Core: ok, sleeptime for me too
    Mickorod Renard: nite nite
    Qt Core: bye them
    Qt Core: bye Zaldaan

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