2010.06.25 01:00 - Virtual economics

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    Wol Euler was guardian and (future) commenter for this session.

     

    Fael Innovia: meep meep! :)

    Fael Innovia: Hi Wol :)

    Wol Euler: meep!

    Wol Euler: gooooooooooood morning.

    Fael Innovia: good morning! meep! :)

    Wol Euler: it's been a wonderful day so far, all 2 hours of it :)

    Fael Innovia: just one hour for me :)

    Wol Euler: went to bed early, got up early, collected 2 books from Amazon from the post office

    Wol Euler: and took them downtown to a cafe to open

    Wol Euler: sitting under a chestnut tree, clear blue skies and warm breeze, birdsong, and cappucino

    Wol Euler grins

    Fael Innovia: sound lovely! meep! :)

    Wol Euler: it was. I should do this more often.

    Wol Euler: it's funny, I always forget each winter how nice summer is.

    Fael Innovia: I cleaned up my laptop's desktop and found a rar file I thought had some music in it I had no idea about. I found it has a wonderful album :)

    Wol Euler: ah :)

    Fael Innovia: no idea how I ended up downloading that :)

    Fael Innovia: nor from where

    Wol Euler: a little surprise package, like some of these outfits from my inventory have been for me.

    Fael Innovia: certainly :)

    --BELL--

    Fael Innovia: meep! hi nio! meep! :)

    nio Artful: hi

    Wol Euler: hello nio

    nio Artful: hello

    Wol Euler: have you been here before?

    Fael Innovia: he has :)

    Wol Euler: ok

    Wol Euler: ty

    nio Artful: yes twice

    Wol Euler: good :)

    Fael Innovia: please sit :)

    Wol Euler: we only bite with prior informed consent :)

    nio Artful: sory i have a job to do

    Fael Innovia: ok, have fun nio :)

    Wol Euler: np

    nio Artful: ok

    Wol Euler: so, I got a pair of books about virtual worlds and avatars and socioeconomics :)

    Wol Euler: started reading Edward Castronova "Exodus to the virtual world"

    Wol Euler: talking about the hole that online players are leaving

    Wol Euler: phone

    --BELL--

    Fael Innovia: Hello Noob1 :)

    Wol Euler: back

    Wol Euler: hello  Noob1 , nice name :)

    Fael Innovia: wb Wol :)

    Wol Euler: so, yes, Castronova is talking about the increasingly large hole in RL society and economics that we vitual-worlders are leaving

    Wol Euler: and how RL is going to have to deal with that.

    Fael Innovia: hmm.. hole?

    Wol Euler: as in missing time and missing income = taxes

    Wol Euler: the time we spend in SL is not spent drinking beer in a neighbourhood bar

    Wol Euler: or even tea in a neighbourhood cafe

    Wol Euler: the money we earn here is not taxed in our RL (yet, though it easily could be)

    Fael Innovia: well, sounds unlikely the money would go unspent... but it might end up unearned eventually

    Wol Euler: yes, RL money changes hands in SL, sure; but none of it is spent in my city

    Wol Euler: when I go to the bar across the street, I put money into my city's economy and tax base

    Wol Euler: when I give money to Darwin for clothes from AVid, that money leaves the country.

    Wol Euler: you might even argue that it leaves Europe

    Fael Innovia: yes, in a way...

    Wol Euler: this will be an increasingly large problem as ever greater numbers of people spend ever more time online

    Wol Euler: this is like the flight from the inner cities taken to a higher level

    Fael Innovia: one would think the "problem" would balance itself out eventually.

    Wol Euler: one wonders how

    Wol Euler: and considers this a topic worth pondering about

    Wol Euler smiles

    Fael Innovia: well you know, given large enough population in virtual worlds, you'd expect it to end up reasonably balanced. The money flow in and out of the country

    Wol Euler: perhaps, yes.

    Wol Euler: there is in theory no reason why somebody in Ghana could not become a SL entrepreneur to rival Darwin, with a cash flow to enable her RL

    Fael Innovia: but I take that means more than just SL

    Wol Euler: yes, SL is just an instance. Castronova is writing generally about "online-ism"

    Fael Innovia: WoW definitely isn't getting any money back to the countries.

    Fael Innovia: except one I guess

    Wol Euler: right

    Wol Euler: how to balance that?

    Wol Euler: in theory anyone can start an online world that becomes hugely successful and gathers income from all over the globe

    Wol Euler: in practice, there are probably only ten cities on Earth where that is possible to do

    Fael Innovia: yes, takes a lot of skills...

    Wol Euler: and many people in very many roles

    Wol Euler: it takes a RL community to create and sustain a virtual community

    --BELL--

    Wol Euler: Silicon Valley produces so much of the good stuff, because Silicon Valley produces so much of the good stuff. QED

    Wol Euler: people who want to produce fresh good stuff go there to share the resources and facilities and community

    Fael Innovia: yes... concentration of skill

    Fael Innovia: in a way, virtual worlds also could help there.

    Wol Euler: Paul Graham wrote a fascinating article a few years back, a think-piece, asking whether cities could simply decide to become a new Silicon Valley.

    Fael Innovia: geographical distance won't matter that much anymore. Instead, virtual groups do.

    Wol Euler: what they would have to do to get there.

    Fael Innovia: I think I read that :)

    Wol Euler: I've mentioned it before :)

    Fael Innovia: but I wasn't thinking creating a virtual world on the scale of WoW or SL is necessary to get income flow back to the country.

    Wol Euler: true

    Fael Innovia: virtual world like SL allows it on smaller scale too.

    Wol Euler: interesting. As yet OpenSim has no economy

    Wol Euler: but when that gets fixed, as it probably will, that would mean that every OpenSim owner has a potential income source

    Fael Innovia: OpenSim could be lacking economy until there's a good general micropayment system :)

    Wol Euler: true, that has been coming "real soon now" for nearly two decades

    Fael Innovia: there's a limit to how long something can be "real soon now" :)

    Wol Euler: people were already talking about that when I joined Compuserve in the late 80s

    Wol Euler: so I guess it's actually well over two decades

    Wol Euler sighs.

    Fael Innovia: meep! :)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Wol Euler: that was my morning so far :)

    Fael Innovia: SL has the best micropayment system I've seen so far :P

    Wol Euler: very true.

    Fael Innovia: so, it's technically quite possible :)

    Wol Euler nods.

    Fael Innovia: but I guess it's not very profitable

    Fael Innovia: so, economistically minded people won't bother

    Wol Euler: mind you, microloans are proving themselves useful and even profitable in RL too

    Wol Euler: there is a useful parallel there

    Fael Innovia: you mean the "send a text message for a loan of $200" type ones?

    Wol Euler: traditional economics said that there's no profit in lending a dollar to a poor man

    Wol Euler: no, I mean the kind where a microbank lends US$18 to a woman in Ghana to build a shed for her chickens

    Wol Euler: preventing egg loss

    Fael Innovia: oh, yes, those

    Wol Euler: increasing her profit by 15%

    Wol Euler: and enriching the community in turn by giving the carpenter something to do

    Wol Euler: etc etc etc

    Fael Innovia: yes, makes sense

    Wol Euler: makes a boatload of sense when one sees it in operation

    Wol Euler: but conventional economics said for hundreds of years that it was nonsense, could not possibly work.

    Fael Innovia: economists tend to forget to factor in community

    Wol Euler nods and smiles.

    Fael Innovia: or well, it simply is not present in the calculations

    Fael Innovia: Hi Darren :)

    Wol Euler: hello darren

    Darren Islar: hi Wol, Fael,  Noob1 

    Fael Innovia: they just treat humans like personal profit maximizing tin men

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Wol Euler: with perfect knowledge and no emotions

    Fael Innovia: yes

    Wol Euler: although their own experience must have proven to them what nonsense that was.

    Fael Innovia: and that "ideology" is in wide use today

    Wol Euler: (talking about microeconomics in online and real worlds, and how to get economic flow from online into RL)

    Fael Innovia: no wonder societies are starting to break at the seams

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Wol Euler grins. Ah, yes, time for a run-around.

    Darren Islar: okay

    Fael Innovia: meep! :)

    Wol Euler: I will have to leave at the bell, work calls.

    Fael Innovia: have fun Wol :)

    Fael Innovia: oh, I love your dress :)

    Wol Euler: ty :)

    Darren Islar: don't work to hard :)

    Wol Euler: anohter rediscovered treasure :)

    Fael Innovia: meep! :)

    Wol Euler: bye for now

    Fael Innovia waves happily.

    Darren Islar: yes, nice dress

    Wol Euler: ty

    --BELL--

    Darren Islar: hI  Noob1 , you like to sit with us?

    Fael Innovia: Hello  Noob2  :)

    Noob2 : hi

    Darren Islar: Hi Ella

    Fael Innovia: oh, created today :) Welcome to Second Life :)

    Darren Islar: yes welcome :)

    Noob2: .....thank you.

    Darren Islar: I you like you can have a seat

    Fael Innovia: she's gone...

    Darren Islar:  Noob1 , have you been here before?

     Noob1 : I check in ever so often but usually find the place empty

    Fael Innovia: The meetings are at set times.

    Fael Innovia: 1,7,1,7 am and pm, SLT

    Fael Innovia: right now it's 2am SLT

    Fael Innovia: you can see the SLT at the top right on your screen :)

    Noob1 : Yes I just saw it up on the board, thank you

    Darren Islar: so you are coming in now on the end of a session

    Fael Innovia: ah yes, and Storm created this fancy counter that says how long until next meeting too :)

    Darren Islar: I give you a notecard that tells you what this is all about

    Noob1: ok sure

    Darren Islar: what you need to know is that we record the session and publish them on our wiki

    Darren Islar: your Avatar-name will be in it

    Darren Islar: so we need to know if that is okay with you

    Noob1: I understand, and people announce this before entering any discussion?

    Darren Islar: no, we tell the ones that are new

    Darren Islar: every session is recorded

    Darren Islar: and you can tell, because the lotus in the middle in the pont says so

    Darren Islar: and if you don't like it, we can eraise your name out of the log, but it also means you can't come to these meetings

     

     

    I don't think it does mean that actually. It would be politer if they didn't come, or at least were silent, since their vocal presence makes work for the GoC; but I don't believe that we need to or should forbid people to attend.

     

    Noob1: Ok that is good to know, tnx for the explanation

    Darren Islar: does that mean you are okay with it?

    Noob1: Actually no I'm not, but I was only exploring and had no idea what it was all about. However I do now :)

    Darren Islar: oay, I will send an e-mail to Wol to erase your name

    Darren Islar: you can talk freely with people in the village, behind you

    Darren Islar: there is no recording there

    Darren Islar: but I'm afraid you can't come to the regular meetings then

    Noob1: that's ok, tnx again i'll go and check out the village then

    Darren Islar: okay, maybe see you :)

    Noob1: tnx, bye :)

    Fael Innovia: Well, Wol's up for some editing for the log it appears.

    --BELL--

    Darren Islar: yes

    Fael Innovia: I sent her an IM about it already.

    Fael Innovia: but send the email if you feel it's better that way :)

    Darren Islar: no, it's okay

    Darren Islar: the same goes for that Noob2

    Fael Innovia: yes, I just added about her too

    Darren Islar: okay, thanks :)

    Fael Innovia: So, how are you?

    Darren Islar: tired, but okay

    Fael Innovia: oh, I'm kind of tired too.

    Fael Innovia: well, not mentally but

    Fael Innovia: somehow exhausted otherwise

    Fael Innovia: perhaps the heat :)

    Darren Islar: that is not my problem, the heat

    Darren Islar: my fatigue is housing in my bones

    Darren Islar: I mean it is not skindeep

    Darren Islar: and feeling exhausted is something to take care of

    Darren Islar: please don't end up like me :)

    Fael Innovia smiles.

    Fael Innovia: will do my best :)

    Darren Islar: thanks :))

    Fael Innovia: how have you got yourself that exhausted?

    Darren Islar: unkown psychologicial problems that brought up three burn-outs

    Fael Innovia: wow

    Fael Innovia: three even?

    Darren Islar: yes, I'm afraid so

    Darren Islar: it is hard to function when you have an 'energy leak'

    Darren Islar: and you still also need a lot of energy just to function

    Fael Innovia: yes, that is true

    Darren Islar: so when I didn't recover from the first one, the other two were inevitable

    Fael Innovia: ah, insect came inside, I'll go look what that is

    Fael Innovia: hmm... no idea what insect that was but it was too weak to fly

    Fael Innovia: and it had wings

    Darren Islar: not all insects with wings can fly :)

    Fael Innovia: I saw it drop from my window to the table

    Darren Islar: hmmm, that doesn't sound like flying

    Fael Innovia: I think it managed to slow it's fall down with the wings

    Fael Innovia: but not much

    Darren Islar: okay

    Fael Innovia: didn't fall like a rock :)

    Fael Innovia: I'd guess it's on the roof outside now. I picked up with a glass and piece of carboard

    Fael Innovia: cardboard

    Fael Innovia: had to dump it outside though, since it couldn't fly.

    Darren Islar: you put it back in the hot sun

    Fael Innovia: the sun doesn't shine on this part of the roof anymore

    Darren Islar: okay :))

    Fael Innovia: well, today

    Fael Innovia: oh wait... perhaps not yet

    Fael Innovia: forgot it's early :)

    Darren Islar: hehehe

    Darren Islar: well, I guess the sun is not such a burdon on insects then it is on us :))

    Fael Innovia: hope not :)

    --BELL--

    Fael Innovia: I'm on 3rd floor so it'd be strange if I get insects here that can't fly :)

    Darren Islar: true

    Fael Innovia: Well, I'd best get back to compiling my hourlist to send in so I can get my pay for the last month :)

    Darren Islar: okay :)

    Fael Innovia: have fun Darren :)

    Darren Islar: see you

    Darren Islar: I'm going too

    Fael Innovia: works better if you turn first :D

    Darren Islar: wow

    Fael Innovia: meep! :)

    Darren Islar: :D

    Fael Innovia waves happily.

    Darren Islar: bye Fael :)

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