2010.06.25 19:00 - Not Logging

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    PaB Confidential


    The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.


    Eos Amaterasu: HI Cal, Hi Steve

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Eos

    stevenaia Michinaga: , Cal not rezzed yet

    Calvino Rabeni: Eos, Steve :)

    Eos Amaterasu: How has Being been with you'all?

    stevenaia Michinaga: a very nice friday of assisting people, crashed computers surrounded me

    Calvino Rabeni: Great, Eos, Being is going fine ... so far!

    stevenaia Michinaga: re-assures me that I am happy I do not have an XP machine

    Eos Amaterasu: sounds like a digital charnel ground, Stevenaia




    stevenaia Michinaga: not a computer geek, just have computer intuition

    Eos Amaterasu: (BRB)

    stevenaia Michinaga: when it comes to those disabled devves

    stevenaia Michinaga: devices

    stevenaia Michinaga: (I know where to kick them to get them restarted

    Calvino Rabeni: What specifically did you intuit, Steve?

    stevenaia Michinaga: figuring out how to undo something the "computer" old us to do for internet safety, ie, make the commmon user account not an administrator, after a few days it would freeze at log in

    stevenaia Michinaga: so had to undo all that in "safe mode"

    stevenaia Michinaga: then it worked as no log in was needed

    Calvino Rabeni: I see, immune system disorder - solved

    stevenaia Michinaga: the owner of the computer asked... what is safe mode

    stevenaia Michinaga: so the problem remains, jsut somewhere where it is not being "used" by the computer

    Calvino Rabeni: One person good at that diagnosis is Wol

    stevenaia Michinaga: awww, good to know

    Calvino Rabeni: Not me, however , unless I get "hands on", then my hands can do it

    Calvino Rabeni: but over the phone - nope.

    stevenaia Michinaga: there are those place that will crawl around inside your computer remotely and fix things, I value them when I need to call someone

    Calvino Rabeni: One person I helped, it turned out they had no idea what a hard drive or folder was, and routinely kept ALL FILES in the Trash folder

    stevenaia Michinaga: lol

    stevenaia Michinaga: at least they knew where everythign was

    Calvino Rabeni: There's a max-nanny computer designed for, mainly, elderly people - by the same company that does those easy-to-use cell phones with the big buttons

    Calvino Rabeni: it keeps all user files on the network, all managed

    stevenaia Michinaga: one button operation?

    Calvino Rabeni: the PC is basically just a dumb terminal

    Calvino Rabeni: The phone?

    stevenaia Michinaga: the computer

    Calvino Rabeni: Kind of, it asks yes/no questions

    Calvino Rabeni: No, it is more complex than the phone

    Calvino Rabeni: but uses similar design with a maximum amount of wizards

    Calvino Rabeni: And zero admin, because it is all done by the service

    Calvino Rabeni: it

    stevenaia Michinaga: there the cloud maqkes sense

    Calvino Rabeni: is a business model that relies on subscription, and only requires a simple hardware

    Calvino Rabeni: yes

    Eos Amaterasu: (restored)

    stevenaia Michinaga: wb eos


    Calvino's question becomes a topic


    Calvino Rabeni: Sool, anyone care for a NON-logged session ?

    Eos Amaterasu: This session is currently being logged

    stevenaia Michinaga: topic?

    stevenaia Michinaga: is that where we tell dirty jokes?

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is being logged - of course any one could be made non-logged just by stopping the recorder

    Calvino Rabeni: If U like, steve, of course :)

    Calvino Rabeni: What other affordances could there be for non-logged sessions?

    stevenaia Michinaga: <--- cannot ever deliver a punch line so that would be pointless for me)




    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni is trying to remember some dirty joke

    Eos Amaterasu wonders about dirty and clean

    Calvino Rabeni: OK, that is interesting, I thought of a couple of things to add to the list

    Calvino Rabeni: (1) dirty jokes

    Eos Amaterasu: I thought of a dirty joke

    Calvino Rabeni: (2) stories about "Ex-es"

    stevenaia Michinaga: very personal issues

    Calvino Rabeni: (3) Discuss with person X, why s/he does not want logging.

    stevenaia Michinaga: confessions

    Calvino Rabeni: (4) General goofiness

    Calvino Rabeni: (5) Confessins

    stevenaia Michinaga: I disagree with #4 Cal

    Calvino Rabeni: Well, really - maybe there are new heights of foggy to be scaled in such a setting

    Calvino Rabeni: OR, perhaps the log kind of eggs people on?

    Eos Amaterasu: (heights of foggy?)

    Calvino Rabeni: I meant - goofy not foggy :))

    Calvino Rabeni: So, strike that typo from the Log !

    Eos Amaterasu: the fog of freud

    stevenaia Michinaga: lol

    Calvino Rabeni: heheh

    Eos Amaterasu: I'm reluctant to remove things which have had subsequent karmic effects

    Calvino Rabeni: (6) comments that might insult some ethnic sensitivity


    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, the idea of log modification is one thing, but to ask someone not to return because they did not want their name assoacted with the log perpexed me


    Calvino Rabeni: (7) exposure of personal weaknesses

    Eos Amaterasu: Yeah, that had never occured to me

    Eos Amaterasu: People who don't want to be logged tend not to return

    Eos Amaterasu: logging is part of the game we play

    Calvino Rabeni: (8) "Helpful" criticism that may or may not be taken in the constructive spirit

    stevenaia Michinaga: I noted that above, cal, but keep going you are on a roll

    Calvino Rabeni: Feel free to add :))

    stevenaia Michinaga: valued comments need not be attached to a name

    Eos Amaterasu: that's one style of scribing

    Calvino Rabeni: (9) Moves that would be outside "that game we play", just to see what it would be like, as an experiment

    stevenaia Michinaga: nods

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that's good to remember

    Eos Amaterasu: outside the boundaries, to find the boundaries

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes

    Calvino Rabeni: as wm blake said - can't find what is enough unless you know what is more than enough

    stevenaia Michinaga: but if the boundry is excluded from the log, how can we learn from it

    Calvino Rabeni: By aware presence?

    stevenaia Michinaga: ??

    Calvino Rabeni: That could be an advantage

    Eos Amaterasu: the boundary can be indicated

    Eos Amaterasu: although sometimes it's good to get it out of the tacit

    Calvino Rabeni: Simply by comparing the experience of logged and non-logged sessions

    Calvino Rabeni: and then reflecting upon them

    Eos Amaterasu: how could you do that?

    Eos Amaterasu: non-logged sessions not being logged

    Calvino Rabeni: That seems straightforwards

    stevenaia Michinaga: grey text bearly readable?

    stevenaia Michinaga: there , but not quite there

    Calvino Rabeni: Suppose we turned off that log there in the center of the pool

    Eos Amaterasu: but that would leave all the other guardians in the dark, and really curious!

    Calvino Rabeni: then had the remainder of the session

    Calvino Rabeni: In which some experiences occured

    Calvino Rabeni: then next session, remember the experience and reflect upon it

    Calvino Rabeni: whather that next session were logged or not could be a free variable

    stevenaia Michinaga: ok think of all the outragious things we can do that no one but us would know about

    Calvino Rabeni: No, they can hear about it in the next session they attend, or in IM, or in the next logged session that the experience were discussed

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, Steve, that sounds like it *could* be a learning moment

    stevenaia Michinaga: but the three frames for reference here would differ

    stevenaia Michinaga: the 4th, the log, would not be here

    Calvino Rabeni: mmm?

    Eos Amaterasu: You need to log all parts of the experiment, but not necessarily inside the experiment

    Calvino Rabeni: Well, our brains handle that fine

    stevenaia Michinaga: and I agree, the 3 frames of reference would be quite a learning experience for the others

    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps they can only get reflective comments

    Calvino Rabeni: If they want to participate, they can do so in a future run of a simialr experiment

    Eos Amaterasu: the longer we remember something,the more it changes

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it changes even before it is over :)


    stevenaia Michinaga: strangely, I often view the log as another viewpoint as my words never seem the same when I read them later


    Calvino Rabeni: and that change, too, is part of the "data"

    Calvino Rabeni: I know what you mean too Steve

    Eos Amaterasu: yeah, reading or listening to your own words can provoke an identity crisis

    stevenaia Michinaga: so we have a "whisper down the ally" situation

    Calvino Rabeni: it's slightly embarrasing, to see that my focus was so much more on my own produced statements than on what some third party was saying

    Eos Amaterasu whispers, what?

    Calvino Rabeni: cognitive limitations

    stevenaia Michinaga: we speak, we log we read we interperate




    Eos Amaterasu: 90 sec reports?

    Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking

    Eos Amaterasu was also like way thinking

    Calvino Rabeni: heheh ... like WAY thinking

    Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking, that I am really interested in exploring all available perspectives on this logging topic

    Calvino Rabeni: including those from several people who wouldn't be here when the recorder is turned on

    Calvino Rabeni: but have some interesting insights

    Eos Amaterasu: in a way (or WAY) our words that are logged here are like sallies into meaning-space

    stevenaia Michinaga: I suspect it's a list woth discussing and adding to on sunday

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I'm considering getting up early enough for that meeting :)

    Eos Amaterasu: I have not actually met people who've indicated they would attend such sessions IF there were no logging

    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe ... I've met ones who say, they are NOT attending BECAUSE of the logging

    stevenaia Michinaga: but an interesting experiement

    Calvino Rabeni: which may be similar

    Eos Amaterasu: Ah, okay.

    Eos Amaterasu: then, there's no problem with having non-logged meetings - that's the default in SL

    Eos Amaterasu: what we do here is unusual

    Calvino Rabeni: And I don't have to ratify or agree with their reasons, to learn from them

    stevenaia Michinaga: I thought they do not log maxine's dream workshop session due to the sometimes personal nature of the discussions

    Eos Amaterasu: yes


    Eos Amaterasu: Calvino, what have you heard about why someone does not want logging?

    Calvino Rabeni: One had to do with a feeling of lack of privacy - perhaps a vulnerability to judgment - if I can read into it

    Calvino Rabeni: Another had to do with the possibility that their conservative RL community might correlate their avatar with RL persona and find the statements objectionable

    Eos Amaterasu: Yeah, logging increasing the odds of correlating SL with RL personae

    Calvino Rabeni: A third felt that - I'm not fully sure - but that a voice heard round the world, should reflect a person's best side and be kind of filtered for quality

    Calvino Rabeni: A fourth felt it might reflect badly on certain institutional affiliations

    Calvino Rabeni: ... various reasons


    stevenaia Michinaga: one thing we need to remind ourselve is that these logs on the internet are non-eraseable, could be that way for decades

    Calvino Rabeni: And I don't think we've heard from PaB guardians

    Calvino Rabeni: who may not even be aware of the constraining or channeling effect of the logging

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, steve - it is forever

    Eos Amaterasu: and we have to live with that foreknowledge - forever

    Calvino Rabeni: And, PaB has not experimented with variations

    Eos Amaterasu: all our words have ripples

    Calvino Rabeni: True true

    Eos Amaterasu: "everything counts" - Jack Nicholson

    Calvino Rabeni: A variation would be - logs that can only be read by PaB members (guardians), not the full public

    Calvino Rabeni: Everything counts, yes

    Calvino Rabeni: on some cosmic level, it's all the same - but on many human levels, it isn't


    Eos Amaterasu: Hmm... I think, or always thought, that one of the perspectives giving rise to PaB approach was a scientific approach to enquiry

    Eos Amaterasu: where logging is part of the process

    Calvino Rabeni: It's like the arguments about - "being honest" in relationships

    Calvino Rabeni: which can be misguided and destructive sometimes

    Calvino Rabeni: Right, Eos, that is one idea

    Eos Amaterasu: there have been spectacular failures in social/collaboration systems, which tracked commitments too intensely

    Calvino Rabeni: But there's no charter that says - this is the *only* way

    Calvino Rabeni: just, "it would be an interesting experiment"

    Eos Amaterasu rummages for tablets in inventory

    Calvino Rabeni: So making that a process variable would also be an experiment

    Calvino Rabeni: A control group, or whatever

    Calvino Rabeni: Eos,I think that results from brittleness

    Calvino Rabeni: Information is brittle, without social context around it

    Eos Amaterasu: In a way what we do here is a kind of art form;




    Eos Amaterasu: it's not just the 90 seconds every 15 minutes

    Eos Amaterasu: it's also the 90 seconds that are parts of various time intervals

    Eos Amaterasu: part of the art of speaking here is finding those in the speaking or between the speaking

    Eos Amaterasu: and between the avatars

    Eos Amaterasu: part of that reflexivity, the art quality, comes from knowing it's being logged

    Eos Amaterasu: (although that's not a necessary requirement for such reflexivity)

    Calvino Rabeni: I like that attitude of considering things to be Art

    stevenaia Michinaga: art can be very experimental

    Eos Amaterasu: a photo logs an instant

    Calvino Rabeni: Conversation is a traditional art, and it's one here also :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps the oldest

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, indeed one of them

    Calvino Rabeni: It used to get huge respecte

    Calvino Rabeni: *respecte

    Calvino Rabeni: (can't type) - R E S P E C T

    stevenaia Michinaga: maybe the second oldest art form.grins

    Eos Amaterasu: "rhetoric" was taught

    Calvino Rabeni: yes, rhetoric

    Calvino Rabeni: the basis of other education

    Eos Amaterasu wonders about the oldest art form

    Eos Amaterasu: elocution

    stevenaia Michinaga: we better turn off the log first


    Calvino Rabeni: even as recently as 1910, schools had elocution as a subject

    Calvino Rabeni: Like a programming language, we could have comments

    Calvino Rabeni: like this


    digression into heavily-edited logged repartee...


    Calvino Rabeni: Did you hear the dirty joke about the woman who

    Calvino Rabeni: walked into a bar and said, I have an ichi *****

    Calvino Rabeni: (ok, strike that from the log)

    Eos Amaterasu: What did the bartender say?

    stevenaia Michinaga: what's the punchline..please

    Calvino Rabeni: Something like - I ride a Harley, lady

    Eos Amaterasu scratches head, not *****

    Eos Amaterasu: sounds funny to me

    Calvino Rabeni: ... not in the USA

    Calvino Rabeni: it depends on anatomical slang

    Calvino Rabeni: which differs


    think you're in a play, you are anyway


    Eos Amaterasu: Play as Being as art, or Play as Being as confession?

    Eos Amaterasu: Or, can you play at being yourself?

    Eos Amaterasu: Or is it too real?

    Eos Amaterasu: Therefore, SL   RL

    Eos Amaterasu: Suggestion for next 90 secs: play at/as being yourself

    stevenaia Michinaga: sounds like comedy

    Eos Amaterasu: :-)

    Eos Amaterasu: "though he thinks he's in a play, he is anyway" - Beatles, Penny Lane




    Calvino Rabeni: I like the title "PAB CONFIDENTIAL"

    Eos Amaterasu: it does seem a more humorful way to be

    Eos Amaterasu: (to Stevenaia)

    stevenaia Michinaga: wants to take notes

    Eos Amaterasu: PaB Confidential: a special, non-logged, theme session

    Calvino Rabeni: RIght

    stevenaia Michinaga: but them it wouldn;t be playing yourself

    Eos Amaterasu: (except of course everyone can do their own personal logging anyway)

    Calvino Rabeni: True - trust is part of it

    Calvino Rabeni: as we know, anyone can copy the chat window to their blog somewhere

    Calvino Rabeni: or sniff packets, etc.

    Eos Amaterasu: stevenaia, wouldn't it be playing yourself a different way?

    Calvino Rabeni: I was wondering that too

    Eos Amaterasu: or have their settings set to autolog all chat

    stevenaia Michinaga: if it's s different way, it might be outside yourself

    stevenaia Michinaga: might be playing to the experiement

    Eos Amaterasu: but I wonder if the self that it's outside of is itself being played

    stevenaia Michinaga: whereas someone logging you playing yourself might not be

    stevenaia Michinaga: played, yes, playing being yourself... not so sure

    Eos Amaterasu: there's probably some combination of playing yourself, but more of not being able to help being yourself (strong habitual propensities)

    stevenaia Michinaga: nods

    Eos Amaterasu: but sense of humor about strong habitual propensities gives them some air too

    Eos Amaterasu: they become Seinfeldian

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello lucinda

    Calvino Rabeni: Tell me -- basically, to have all your comments logged and public forever - the good, the bad, and the ugly - does it not give you some pause?

    Calvino Rabeni: Just slightly? Or cause you to adjust behavior?

    Eos Amaterasu: It certainly does, but I've been having that pause for decades

    Lucinda Lavender: hi...I whisper...

    Calvino Rabeni: HI Cinda !

    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Luci

    Lucinda Lavender: HI:)

    Calvino Rabeni: How Eos, have you lived in a reality tv program ? :)

    Eos Amaterasu: heh heh

    Eos Amaterasu: it's called autopoiesis

    Calvino Rabeni: I recall, that some people are selfconscious, doing their own "internal logging", whiile others aparently don't listen to what they say or remember it much

    Calvino Rabeni: Some are much more self-censored than others

    Calvino Rabeni: There are blurters, there are ones who scrutinize before speakiing a word

    Eos Amaterasu: the ones who are doing a lot of internal logging are also probably heavily mythologizing

    Calvino Rabeni: Or, just self-aware

    Eos Amaterasu: the logging is forced into a narrative as time goes on

    Eos Amaterasu: and as the logging gets echoed and re-echoed

    Calvino Rabeni: yes, that's certainly a consideration

    Eos Amaterasu: the Alamo becomes "the Alamo"

    Calvino Rabeni: there were certain statements I made early in PaB, that were forced into a narrative I could not have foreseen at the time

    Calvino Rabeni: And had i known that at the time, my behavior would have been different




    stevenaia Michinaga: time to go...

    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks

    Eos Amaterasu: me too

    Eos Amaterasu: sorry to leave on such an interesting note, Calvino

    Lucinda Lavender: bye all:)

    Eos Amaterasu: Bye Lucinda, Calvino

    Lucinda Lavender: sounds like an interesting discussion

    Calvino Rabeni: Bye!

    Calvino Rabeni: I thought it was, Cinda

    Calvino Rabeni: Want to read it?

    Lucinda Lavender: sure

    Lucinda Lavender: It will be logged?

    Calvino Rabeni: The recording is on, but we can turn it off, whatever you like

    Lucinda Lavender: I may be leaving soon...

    Lucinda Lavender: we have been following a blog for a bit about people riding the high divide...a tour for bikes...

    Lucinda Lavender: and the man we were following had to quit today

    Lucinda Lavender: He has a blog called Kent's Bike Blog.

    Lucinda Lavender: One perosn died on the ride just on wed.

    Lucinda Lavender: after head trauma in a crash with a car.

    Calvino Rabeni: The ride sounds like fun

    Calvino Rabeni: A friend was telling me about the community aspect of the Pacific Crest Trail

    Lucinda Lavender: It is a great thing to follow because the riders call in anyou can hear their calls. Also they have gps on them so you can follow then on the terrain map.

    Lucinda Lavender: Kent has a great attitude... calls himself team turtle

    Calvino Rabeni: nice moniker

    Lucinda Lavender: yes the fellow who died had walked the pacificrest with his wife... then decided to do this Tour Divide

    Calvino Rabeni: There are people who hike Canada to Mexico on the Crest Trail - it takes all season

    Lucinda Lavender: Wow!

    Lucinda Lavender: Really amazing I think...

    Calvino Rabeni: One guy got too old for it, so he bought property along the trail, and built some cabins

    Lucinda Lavender: This ride is Banff to Antelope Wells New Meico.

    Calvino Rabeni: And now there is a continuous party there all season

    Lucinda Lavender: :)))

    Calvino Rabeni: with some community continuity due to the word-of-mouth nature of the group of people who like that long hike

    Lucinda Lavender: shakes her head

    Lucinda Lavender: nice...

    Calvino Rabeni: GPS's and the internet give you a peek into their little sub-culture

    Lucinda Lavender: yes

    Calvino Rabeni: we can start to realize the radical diversity of "normal" culture

    Lucinda Lavender: nodding

    Calvino Rabeni: LIke, the way PlayAsBeing has the logs that expose alll conversation here to the world for eternity




    Calvino Rabeni: (technological eternity, that is, not metaphysical eternity)

    Lucinda Lavender: I started reading a book today.

    Lucinda Lavender: A novel called the Forgotten Garden.

    Lucinda Lavender: Rare for me to read novels

    Lucinda Lavender: It is set in several different decades.

    Lucinda Lavender: And a mystery.

    Calvino Rabeni: what is the attractive thing to you?

    Lucinda Lavender: When the different generations discover the mysterious things...

    Lucinda Lavender: they make the connections, figure things out.

    Lucinda Lavender: Stuff keeps resonating...being discovered.

    Calvino Rabeni: What needs to be discovered?

    Lucinda Lavender: the ancestral home of the oldest character so far...it has a maze as part of it.

    Calvino Rabeni: Learning new things, or a big change in routine, can be hard on the body, I've found

    Lucinda Lavender: yes...

    Calvino Rabeni: Well, I will go see to dinner - have a good evening Cinda

    Lucinda Lavender: I guess I will go for now. thanks take care...

    Calvino Rabeni: See you later then, bye :)

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    Viewing 2 of 2 comments: view all
    /me giggles thinking of guardians having 'secret logs' of sessions they pass around like Dead tapes....
    Posted 08:15, 26 Jun 2010
    I really love reading the logs! /me laughs while drinking coffee and getting ready for the day (and then passes Eliza a small package.. shhh..)
    Posted 02:54, 1 Jul 2010
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