2010.06.27 19:00 - The W Factor

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The lack of comments is by Calvino Rabeni.

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hey all!
    Calvino Rabeni: WB Mitzi :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Did I miss anything fascinating yet?
    stevenaia Michinaga: not since the bell
    Pila Mulligan: hi
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pila
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: hello pila, nice to meet you.
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, we have four I Ching fans here, I just wanted to point that out
    stevenaia Michinaga: I was just finishing up my I Ching for the week
    Pila Mulligan: hi Mitzi, same here (although having read chat logs of your conversations here there is already some familiairity)
    stevenaia Michinaga: starting once a week for the moemnt
    Pila Mulligan: cool
    Pila Mulligan: Chingers
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Pila Mulligan: FYI Mitzi -- http://www.iching.ws/
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: wow, that's nice that we all have that in common ..
    stevenaia Michinaga: was wondering around the Asian areas of the Metropolitain Museum in NYC today, amazed at the Buddhist influence through china, Korea, Japan and SW Asia, does I Ching have a Buddhist connection?
    stevenaia Michinaga: or does it predate that

    Calvino Rabeni: AFAIK it predates it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I usually wait till I hae a genuine dilemma, then I will throw the I Ching
    Pila Mulligan: I agree with Calvino as to histoircal sequence, but I'd say all Chinese thought was affected by Buddhism, Steve -- e.g., http://www.amazon.com/Buddhist-Ching-Shambhala-Dragon-Editions/dp/1570626030
    Pila Mulligan: Calvion*
    Pila Mulligan: you know what I'm trying to type :)
    Calvino Rabeni: yep
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: so my guess is you see reprecussions of Buddhism in the vqarious arts that apply the yin-yang fuondation
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm the opposite, Mitzi - I like to read the -grams, just for themselves, rather than throwing and connecting like the oracle
    Pila Mulligan: yes, I use it as a contemplation reference, not as an orcale, also
    Calvino Rabeni: the I Ching is layered on by all the later traditions, Confucianism, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: Includiing buddhism
    stevenaia Michinaga: and I am all new to this so jsut taking it all in
    Calvino Rabeni: as well, the current retrospective view is affected by later traditions, iif you know what I mean
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: The I Ching is so fantastic - you can use it in all those ways.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it is a source of help for many skills
    Calvino Rabeni: I was wondering about that concept "The Superior Man" and how it had been rendered in other translations - what it really refers to
    Calvino Rabeni: other than wilhelm, I meant
    Pila Mulligan: it is a reference to a prefered condition, as far as I know
    Calvino Rabeni: a kind of sage?
    Calvino Rabeni: Like the top line of 6, refers to a sage's perspective
    Pila Mulligan: well, the sage tneded to refer to the accomplished one, or teacher
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: One commentator I like, Carol Anthony, takes "the superior man" to refer to the higher impulses within ourselves.
    Pila Mulligan: superior man was like an apple -- 'come this way, don't go that way'
    Pila Mulligan: In Alfred huang's book we used superior person, and made it femiinine in yin gua
    Pila Mulligan: Steve: from Thomas Cleary (an Asian ascolar):"For centuries the I Ching has been used as a basic map of conscious development, containing the underlying principles of all religions, and highly prized by followers of Buddhism."
    stevenaia Michinaga: thx
    Calvino Rabeni: The I Ching is multi-perspectival - it is an model or viewpoint, looking at the set of other perspectives, of people who have different levels of concern, or development
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Calvino Rabeni: That outside view of development, has interesting problems
    Calvino Rabeni: Like, appealing more to the ones who can understand most of the perspectives
    stevenaia Michinaga: can you explain further
    Calvino Rabeni: and maybe thus encouraging a kind of elitism
    Pila Mulligan: I see the I Ching also as being a deep form of folk wisdom, to reduce it to an absurdity, like "do not piss into the wind"
    Calvino Rabeni: The principle is that the higher can see the lower, but not vice versa
    Calvino Rabeni: If it has that folk wisdom, it is because the folks, see the world
    Calvino Rabeni: not because anyone compiled folk wisdom into a manuscript
    Pila Mulligan: no, but with a similar effect in some yao
    Calvino Rabeni: The changes, doesn't refer to the book
    Pila Mulligan: the I of the title?
    Calvino Rabeni: But to the changing world
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: and what some masters call the Dao of I
    Pila Mulligan: or the way of change
    Pila Mulligan: as a cycle
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I think, it is good to regard that as the ultimate authority or point of grounding
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino - in terms of your comment about "encouraging a kind of elitism" – I feel that this perception of encouragement is in the eye of the beholder, and not a very important criticism.
    Calvino Rabeni: How so ... I'm thining of all that has been done, with similar schemes, like those of WIlber
    Calvino Rabeni: There seem to be some tricky political waters here in this issue
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I feel these systems should be evaluated on their intrinsic value to us primarily, rather than through the lens of secondary perceptions or political effrevts (or the perceptions thereof) ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I see - yes that sounds like an ideal to me - which is fine, but in fact, they get used in non-ideal ways also
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... the political effects are a valid secondary topic of discussion of course
    Calvino Rabeni: We can of course choose what to focus on

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Being free beings!
    Calvino Rabeni: We agree on this it seems :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: our minds still reverberate with the old tribal hierarchy compulsions, as John Trudell might say, a genetic memory
    Calvino Rabeni: The personal is political, as they say...
    Pila Mulligan: my neighbor priest says all politics eventually somes down to sleeping with someone
    Calvino Rabeni: And that tribalism is part of human nature - I don't agree with systems of development that are interpreted to suggest it can be left behind by "the superior man" in his "superior society"
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it is something to be dealt with
    Calvino Rabeni: Dealt with , or lived, or enjoyed
    Calvino Rabeni: It is not something belonging to "primitives"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: We are all probably subciousciously acting in ways right here that place us in a dominant or submissive position in a hierarchy!
    Calvino Rabeni: or south sea islanders, etc. as the stereotype goes
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and in a tribe
    Calvino Rabeni: or a clan
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: FOr example Pila and Calvino both speak frequently, type quickly, and seem dominant. I expect them to start sparring for position at any moment!
    Calvino Rabeni: Eye of the beholder :)
    Calvino Rabeni: But ! I can do that if you like :)
    Pila Mulligan: Wilhelm Reich wrote about triabl politics quite abit in connection with his Orgone psychology
    Pila Mulligan: I like to talk mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: Here's an interesting angle - from modern social research - at the MIT media lab
    Pila Mulligan: but it is often at the expense of listening :)
    Calvino Rabeni: You rememer the archaic word "Kith"?
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Reich
    Calvino Rabeni: as in Kith and Kin?
    Calvino Rabeni: In a lot of ways, psychology and sociology is only recently catching up with the nature of humans as members of their social groups
    Calvino Rabeni: The Kith was recognized in archaic times, then sort of forgotten, even though it still exists
    Calvino Rabeni: it is the set of people we interact with and whose influences determine a lot of our unconscious thinking
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Great word!
    Calvino Rabeni: Only recently can this be put on a more empirical basis, through measuring how people really interact in groups
    Calvino Rabeni: Rather than filtering it only through sociological theories
    Calvino Rabeni: It's been called "reality mining"
    Calvino Rabeni: treating what is happening in a group as a data set to be interpreted
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: like it .. juicy ...
    Calvino Rabeni: ... basically that was just a long-winded way to point to Kith and clans as standard parts of modern life
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: what would be another word for kith? Culture?
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe like Kurt Vonneguts "karrass" idea
    Calvino Rabeni: Except that is a group you don't know about
    Calvino Rabeni: This would be the people you are linked with through social interaction
    Calvino Rabeni: Like, your coworkers, people you spend time with - and absorb their ideas subliminally
    Calvino Rabeni: like, your group of friends is enthusiastic about iPads,
    Calvino Rabeni: or dislike some politician, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: Laugter and other emotions are contagious
    Calvino Rabeni: attitudes are communicated as the degree of animation and vivacity of peoples bodies
    Calvino Rabeni: excitement is in the air, or other feelings
    Calvino Rabeni: and it is primarily unconscious
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ah!

    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Rowan, would you like to join us?
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Rowan
    Calvino Rabeni: You have been around PlayAsBeing before?
    Rowan Masala: Hi :)
    Rowan Masala: I have, yes
    Rowan Masala: but don't let me interrupt
    Calvino Rabeni: So you know the issues with the recorder and all that?
    Pila Mulligan: hi Rowan
    Rowan Masala: yes, all good
    Rowan Masala: Hi Pila :)
    Calvino Rabeni: OK thanks
    stevenaia Michinaga: interesting connection of Wilhelm Reich and on of my favorite singers who wrote a song called "Cloudbursting"
    stevenaia Michinaga: Kate Bush's song "Cloudbusting" describes Reich's arrest and incarceration through the eyes of Reich's son, Peter, who wrote his father's story in A Book of Dreams, published in 1973. The video for the song was directed by Julian Doyle, conceived by Terry Gilliam and Bush, and has Donald Sutherland as Reich, and Bush as Peter.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Welcome rowan!
    stevenaia Michinaga: somethign I never knew...love this place
    Calvino Rabeni: There was a reich retreat near my oregon house - they had one of those "cloudbusters"
    Pila Mulligan: yes, Reich left Germany to get away form fascism and then died in a US pentitentiary for teaching a variation of chi
    Calvino Rabeni: It is interesting, that those things aren't necessarily passed into history
    Calvino Rabeni: but have their current communities
    stevenaia Michinaga: aww, explain that to the FDA
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: No good deed goes unpunished
    Pila Mulligan: did you see the movie Men Who Stare at Goats?
    stevenaia Michinaga: no, jsut the previews, was it based on a true story?
    Pila Mulligan: George Clooney does some mental cloud magic in it
    Pila Mulligan: yes, a kind of send up of a partly factual story
    Pila Mulligan: Monty Pyhton style
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Men_Who_Stare_at_Goats
    Pila Mulligan: it's a fun movie
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I watched it last week, loved it, highly recommended to this crowd ...
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: SO, on the one hand we're unconsciously controlled by social forces, but on the other ... can strive to be the "superior Person" of the I Ching and other teachings.. is that a dilemma or what?
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4nzXt4QaYk
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks Mitzi, I'll check it out
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, I guess one should choose "Kith" carefully
    Calvino Rabeni: As there's not much we can do about Kin
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, this dilemma calls us to delve into our perceptions in a more nuanced way -- to try and distinguish what forces are impelling us ... and hopefully choose wisely to follow those impulses ... or hold back ...
    Calvino Rabeni: A lot depends then on how good our intellects can filter and interpret all those subtle perceptions and impulses
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... and thus be the superior man version of ourselves to the best of our capacity
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: As you pointed out one time, almost our only real freedom is to direct attention with will ... or somethng like that ?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: you said "intellects" ... but I think there's a gut / emotional choosing capacity that is probably the more fundamental "decider"
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the thinker / idea builder etc., can either use that, or interfere with it,or overide it

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ah yes, Calvino, very true. Thus I have great interest in trying to explore and elucidate the "other" senses that may be within our perceptual purview (if you will) but not fully utilized
    Calvino Rabeni: A system such as the I Ching seems to suggest,that a kind of discipline or cultivation, or will, is needed to become the "superior person" who can interpret the Changes and act accordingly
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... that can help us make "superior" decision ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree, actually, maybe we have our built in senses, and don't need to rely on a framework
    Calvino Rabeni: A central idea then, would be will
    Calvino Rabeni: and it's pretty complicated by metaphysics and politics
    Calvino Rabeni: perhaps it can be dug out from under those accretions
    Pila Mulligan: it seems to me that I Ching, like life, is heard by its users subjectively, and that is part of its value, as it is often helpful
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: the oracle part - is an end-run around the controlling intellect
    Calvino Rabeni: to make it take second place for a while
    Calvino Rabeni: and to listen.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm very dubious about the concept of will, Calvino. At least if I correctly interpret your usage of that word.
    Calvino Rabeni: What's your concept of it, Mitzi?
    Calvino Rabeni: For example, where does it come from, to be in charge of one's own development?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, when I hear the word "will", what heaps to mind is the image of someone kind of scrunching up their face and forcing their attention into a particular focus ... obviously I have somewhat of a negative slant on this word.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Those are the accretions I was suggesting it would be good to dig out from under
    Calvino Rabeni: I guess I assume, the "superior person" of the I Ching has to make some effort to be that way, rather than just being born that way and having no choice in the matter
    Rowan Masala: night, all
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: On the other hand, you could have an intention to listen to your own inner "still, small voice" - conscience or intuition ... and inspite ofother impulses to do one thing ... go the other way in response to inner prompting - that could be called "will" I suppose ... but I'd probably label it somethng else ...
    stevenaia Michinaga: night rowan
    Pila Mulligan: bye Rowan
    Calvino Rabeni: Night Rowan, thanks for joining us :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I have to depart as well, thanks Pila, Cal and Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Steve
    Pila Mulligan: moi aussi, bye for now :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: see you again sometimes, perhaps?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Jeez they've all abandoned us in one split second!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Good evening everyone!
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it's always surprising when they evaporate like that :)
    Calvino Rabeni: There is a hidden clock involved, I think :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hmmm ... how about returning to your idea of "accretions" and diggout out from under them ?
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, let's say there is something .... which exists, but you don't want to call it Will
    Calvino Rabeni: And you'd give another name?
    Calvino Rabeni: Factor W?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: "The decider" .. haha! .. .shades of George W. Bush!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Factor W indeed! LOL!
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, there is Factor W, not to be confused with that politician
    Calvino Rabeni: Or W for short...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, Calvino, Factor W is like the holy grail for such folk as us, seeking the superior man in all situations

    Calvino Rabeni: OK, then, W is hidden under all this stuff, these accretions
    Calvino Rabeni: and an idea to be entertained, is that it can be "redeemed" or "rehabilitated", rather than just deciding it doesn't exist or is permanently "broken"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, this is a useful way to approach W.
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, so we can kind of look at the accretions in a light way, sometimes, a way that it might be possible to dis-identify (or "drop", in PaB terms)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm guessing there are multiple factors affecting W - similar to the Gurdjieffian idea of multiple "I"s - who take control of the body and make commitments that other "I's must live up to.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: A light way! I'm in.
    Calvino Rabeni: So the "superior person" is not scrunching up face to do things, and doesn't need any self-abuse
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes.
    Calvino Rabeni: I would agree, if you're suggesting, a kind of group effort of those "I"s might be a good thing
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I visualize the superior person as calmly taking in the situation, taking their time, and letting things settle in thoroughly and without rush ... actions then arise out of that serenity and calm.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Maybe taking your time allows seeming separate "I"s to meet, and merge ..
    Calvino Rabeni: That's one familiar image of how it may work - the calm sage
    Calvino Rabeni: We also have the archetype of the spiritual warrior, less common,who can do it in the midst of melee
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems, people created those archetypes in order not to forget what's possible
    Calvino Rabeni: I like your idea there, though of the council of I's
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, I was just thinking about that archetype as well! I was musing that the warrior who can act suddenly is probably highly trained in similar situations - thus making them adpets.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Actually, calvino, that was *your* idea! (Council of "I"s)
    Calvino Rabeni: You've heard the saying that the intellect is the slowest of the centers
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, it might take a calm setting to get them to meet
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Seems ironic though - if the intellect is so slow - that it needs to slow down even more to get in sync
    Calvino Rabeni: There's some scientific research about that , or at least, interpretations
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Do tell more?
    Calvino Rabeni: Ironic, seems a little true
    Calvino Rabeni: well the MIT research was characterizing the social mind as being good at solving complex problems faster than the average intellect
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I feel the intellect is just plain dopey in general.
    Calvino Rabeni: but the intellect being good for exploring novel alternatives
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: is it? sometimes I wonder what the intellect is good for at all.
    Calvino Rabeni: So the job of the intellect, is to kind of do problem-solving where there is a breakdown of the intuitive and social thinking
    Calvino Rabeni: It is like an executive function - when things are going well, it doesn't get involved
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Who, brilliant, Calvino! I would say,it would be interesting to see if someone could convincingly DISPROVE that assertion.
    Calvino Rabeni: when things are breaking down, it looks around and says "huh?" and then starts to enumerate and explore alternatives
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Got to be some survival functionality in there ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes naturally
    Calvino Rabeni: you could say, the emotional center has that role in relation to the moving center

    Calvino Rabeni: but , I know, it is probably more complicated than that
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I often feel that my intellect is running around after the fact, adeptly making up a plausible story to explain what just happened!
    Calvino Rabeni: this happens naturally
    Calvino Rabeni: it is called confabulation
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: naturall and pretty much insivibly
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: another great word. tongiht is a good evening for words.
    Calvino Rabeni: it has been defined, as a process by which many possible interpretations compete, unconsciously, before presenting one "winner" to the conscious mind
    Calvino Rabeni: because, it does not have the ability to process much inparallel
    Calvino Rabeni: so this is the end result of the merge of all those parallel actions
    Calvino Rabeni: the brain couldn't work otherwise - then as a very parallel system of slow processes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Sigh. Our precious perceptions that we spend so much time entertaining with dead seriousness. Mere confabulations.
    Calvino Rabeni: most of which, the conscious mind doesn't need to know
    Calvino Rabeni: They work pretty well !
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: H ha! as in spy storeis - "this is on a need to know basis" - we are being given plausible deniability by our subcionscious!!
    Calvino Rabeni: The lamp cord is just that, not a snake or a crack in the wall
    Calvino Rabeni: That's funny
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, so that's kind of about architecture
    Calvino Rabeni: About Factor W, then... we're not going to explain away free will
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: My own internal situation is that I seem to have less filtering than most people. I notice, and also remember, a socially unacceptable level of details about everyone and everything. SO I have to pretend often that I don't know that which I do in fact know.
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, but you wouldn't nesecarily know what others are also filtering
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It benefits me in many ways to have this capacity. But it's a bit lonely.
    Calvino Rabeni: Although I do think people vary alot
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: No, you are right - but, you can kind of tell what people are attending to just by observing ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, Mitzi, but, you could assume, there are many people like you also, just that it is hard to connect with them
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes! Perhaps yourself for example.
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Lots of them ... such as many children!
    Calvino Rabeni: So one of those accretions on W, is a political one - that we have to pretend to not know a lot about other people
    Calvino Rabeni: the combination of having knowledge, plus having W, is something that scares people
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh my god, that's a huge one for me.
    Calvino Rabeni: And if you have this combination,it's best to hide it :)
    Calvino Rabeni: !
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thus it's good that I'm a friendly, happy personality, so people don't usuallyt feel threatened
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: And W tends to rock the boat
    Calvino Rabeni: Unless it is in service of the boat
    Calvino Rabeni: meaning, the social status quo
    Calvino Rabeni: but when it looks like it serves an individual, then the social boat rocks
    Calvino Rabeni: and thus, there are encumbrances, like the idea of "self will"
    Calvino Rabeni: which has a negative connotation

    Calvino Rabeni: or the association of willful with stubborn, as if that is negative
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It give me a social dominance that is usually useful, but sometimes can feel like a negative ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: "in the service of the boat" ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, ghandi, or other respected leaders...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Generally I am trying to drill holes in the boat ... in a nice way though!
    Calvino Rabeni: when W used for good social purposes,it gets credit
    Calvino Rabeni: but when it is used in ways that rock the boat, it gets blame
    Calvino Rabeni: (I like that phrase in the I Ching - "No Blame")
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I have learned to (mostly) be quiet, and wait to be asked or approached. THis avoides a lot of the problems you mentioned
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: .. because I am coming forth in response to an individual's actual request, and not imposing myself upon the situation unasked. It took me so long to learn that lesson. Now, I have few problems, unless I get annoyed or reactive which I really don't like to ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, I hear it :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I like the phrase No Blame too. We are so ready to blame ourselves for everything - that phrase is soothing.
    Calvino Rabeni: The position of W varies in different religious traditions, I think.
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't want to characterize them too much, because that is one of the political accretions about it
    Calvino Rabeni: But, it seems, they all wrestle with that question
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, the position of W varies highly! In some religions, any hint of W would be rigorously suppressed. At leat that's my judgment from the outside.
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance, I think, one thing I like about some traditions, is they assume that W can be redeemed, that if purified, it is a source of spiritual guidance, instead of a pathway to delusion
    Calvino Rabeni: And in any tradition, given that they have huge history and many interpreters, you will find that viewpoint
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, I was just reading something similar in that Murat Yagan book I had mentioned to you. He is surprising in the ways he oints out the positive aspects of traditional religions.
    Calvino Rabeni: along with maybe, something like an average or center-of-gravity attitude about W
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that's important I believe
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: .. to be useful to the average adherent to that relgion.
    Calvino Rabeni: Right
    Calvino Rabeni: And then there's the dilemma of levels I spoke about earlier
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance, some parts of a tradition are aimed at one level, others at a different one
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Do you remember the Gurdjieffian concept of the "obvyatel"? The good householder - how much can be achieved by such a person.
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't remember that term, but I get the idea
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, the different levels. A good religion, or religious literature, should have both levels or multiple levels of analogy.
    Calvino Rabeni: I think there's often a misunderstanding based on what level something is aimed at
    Calvino Rabeni: For example, sometimes there are just lists of rules
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Surely
    Calvino Rabeni: Other times, high level principles
    Calvino Rabeni: Other times, sort of ultimate ontological statements of little direct practical use
    Calvino Rabeni: It would be a misapplication to take one of those as if it were the other
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: All preserved and passed down for each generation to take what's valuable for them at that time.

    Calvino Rabeni: True
    Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking about W as applicable to Wu Wei, or nonaction
    Calvino Rabeni: meaning not inaction, but action that is most in accord with Tao, or the way things are naturally already happening
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: discrimination ... discernment ... as to when and where action of any type might be appropriate?
    Calvino Rabeni: So at that point of action / activity, then self-W and universal-W would be the same thing
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... when it's the time to act ... "taken at the flood ..." otherwise, "nothing that would serve to further"
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I like certain pairs of hexagrams from the I Ching that are about that discernment
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well ideally self-W and universal-W would be the same thing! But, lacking the godly perspective, we would never know for sure.
    Calvino Rabeni: 23 - 24, then 43 - 44
    Calvino Rabeni: Lacking that perspective, a certain amout of W would be required to draw them closer together?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It would be just as band to NOT act when it's the Dao to do so as to act when it's not.
    Calvino Rabeni: 43 - It is not profitable to go right to war. It is profitable to get somewhere
    Calvino Rabeni: But actually, it should be 43-1-44
    Calvino Rabeni: and 23-2-24
    Calvino Rabeni: I guess, this is a little technical, if one doesn't have the book next to the computer :)
    Calvino Rabeni: but they are both about inflection points
    Calvino Rabeni: when something is completely full, or completely empty

    Calvino Rabeni: in that case of 23, it seems to describe that state of completely dropping self-W, and then being able to act with completely fresh new energy
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I had to check in a browser - but I basically follow!
    Calvino Rabeni: http://deoxy.org/iching/23 and http://deoxy.org/iching/24
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Except that 23 - Splitting apart - would in theory onlyl be arrived at through not being in tune with W.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: 23 is like, an alcoholic hitting rock bottom so they can finally bergin recovery
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it shows dropping of the separation
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: but I follow in gnegeneral
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it's good to realize one of those accretions, found in these translations, is the idea that Yang is somehow superior to Yin
    Calvino Rabeni: and the tendency to give negative projections on it
    Calvino Rabeni: like the "dark lines" as if they were a bad thing
    Calvino Rabeni: but really those changes are neutral
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh, yes, I see what you mean.
    Calvino Rabeni: So this hexagram could represent releasing some bad idea
    Calvino Rabeni: but it could be, releasing a good idea, that is just no longer in tune with reality
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi CInda :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well, then it would be bad wouldn't it?
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi...Cal Mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hey Cinda!
    Calvino Rabeni: No, why call it good or bad
    Calvino Rabeni: ?
    Calvino Rabeni: It served its purpose
    Calvino Rabeni: and it could have been right while in use
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, good or less good then ...
    Calvino Rabeni: but all things pass away
    Calvino Rabeni: the question is, do we have to label things as 'bad' in order to let go of them
    Calvino Rabeni: (rhetorical question)
    Lucinda Lavender: !
    Calvino Rabeni: Well Cinda, we were discussing the I Ching, and something called W.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ummm ...intersting thought, Calvino.
    Calvino Rabeni: And now that you're here, it is tempting to link in Dreams
    Lucinda Lavender: ...
    Lucinda Lavender: only if you wish
    Calvino Rabeni: you know, that symbols in Dreams, are like the god Janus - they look two ways at once
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ooh! say more
    Calvino Rabeni: There's a yang interpretation and yin interpretation of each symbol
    Lucinda Lavender: can you describe the two ways?
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, say in the dream, someone drowns
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: that's bad, from the point of view of the old way to be
    Calvino Rabeni: but good, from the point of view of the transformed future
    Lucinda Lavender: old=yang?
    Calvino Rabeni: thus dream deaths are a symbol of transformation
    Lucinda Lavender: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: Yang is the active side
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: That example reminds me of the Tarot card "The Hanged Man":
    Lucinda Lavender: hmm
    Calvino Rabeni: We were talking about the sequence of 23-0-24, in the I Ching, which is a kind of "death" and "rebirth"
    Lucinda Lavender: so I am wishing something
    Calvino Rabeni: Also "The Fool" in the Tarot
    Calvino Rabeni: has both interpretations
    Lucinda Lavender: to see the chat in view 1 more than just afew lines
    Calvino Rabeni: Click on Communcation
    Lucinda Lavender: so that I can really get what you are talking about
    Lucinda Lavender: good
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: yes I see now
    Lucinda Lavender: there are what I call bigger views of the images
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: "you are wishing something:" or ... something is wishing you?!?
    Lucinda Lavender: :) well I thought it was me but who knows maybe not!

    Lucinda Lavender: a focused interpretation and a diffuse one....
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: And one from the point of view of the self-W and another from a more universal viewpoint
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It's always refreshing and sometimes enlightening to turn thoughts around backwards and see how they feel that way.
    Lucinda Lavender: don't know but self -W is a little bit unknown to me as a term
    Lucinda Lavender: That is why at dream circle we take the dream to others and don't speak to our own..
    Calvino Rabeni: The dilemma is, we don't have words for those things, that are not encumbered
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, Ego has a zillion connotations. Wo, Calvino, could you define W for Lucinda's benefit (and mine)
    Calvino Rabeni: We were using "W" for "Will" but without all the baggage of attitudes, politics and religions
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe something like, "neutral conscious choice"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: MMM ... like it.
    Calvino Rabeni: but then we for awhile got into, how much choice, depends on sensitivity to knowledge from non-conscious sources
    Calvino Rabeni: So to avoid having those conditioned reactions to a word, we just decided to call it W :)
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: hmmm, about sensitivity to knowledge from non-conscious sources ... dream work would seem like wonderful training for that
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes really :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Part of cinda's dream method, is to not regard the dreams as so personal
    Calvino Rabeni: so to get a more universal viewpoint into the understanding
    Calvino Rabeni: so if someone dies in the dream, you don't have to live with a feeling of personal dread :)
    Lucinda Lavender: and that said we form the dream using personal metaphors..but they are relecting the universal energetic experience.
    Lucinda Lavender: nods
    Lucinda Lavender: Today we had a drem circle...
    Lucinda Lavender: all from the last week or so.
    Lucinda Lavender: They had themes of finishing education, ( leaving a teaching...turning in a paper for instance
    Calvino Rabeni: In a sense, we're dreaming all the time
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: so those methods of interpretation can say something about what we experience in waking life
    Lucinda Lavender: they can
    Calvino Rabeni: for instance, say I get tense, or angry about something
    Calvino Rabeni: And may not understand it fully, or even much...
    Calvino Rabeni: but it's valid to look at it as part of the universal dreaming process
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: it may have provided some issue to emerge, with me as its spokesman
    Calvino Rabeni: because I resonate with it
    Lucinda Lavender: I think we are sometimes like satellite dishes
    Calvino Rabeni: so there is a merging of the issues that are important to me AND to my group or culture
    Lucinda Lavender: picking up on the universal field
    Calvino Rabeni: and actually, the universal field is "dreaming something up" through me
    Lucinda Lavender: Being dreaming
    Calvino Rabeni: in relationship to the full situation of what is around, including the other peopel
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: that seems like an example of a "light" way to address heavy issues - depersonalizes them ... very refreshing

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it lets go of some encumbrances
    Calvino Rabeni: So that is part of digging W out from under the encumbrances I call "politics"
    Lucinda Lavender: What if our seeing in the dream reveals...the bigger pickture
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, Cinda, I think part of the revealing is in the dream itself, but there's more, during the dream review later. What do you think?
    Calvino Rabeni: Like, dreams are unfinished stories of some lesson or revelation
    Lucinda Lavender: I will be right back...chicken put away time
    Lucinda Lavender: but I feel that is so very true...there is some truth revealed in the dream..
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: OK
    Calvino Rabeni: Real chickens, that is ? :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I was considering chickens as a dream symbol
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Lucinda Lavender: real
    Lucinda Lavender: what do the say to you?
    Lucinda Lavender: they do lay eggs
    Calvino Rabeni: Chickens? They are one of humanity's most important domesticated animals
    Calvino Rabeni: don't make very good pets, but, I think they are deserving of affection
    Calvino Rabeni: Can be very beautiful too
    Calvino Rabeni: They're kind of exploited
    Calvino Rabeni: I like traveling, in countries where there are lots of chickens
    Calvino Rabeni: the familar sounds of dogs and chickens are part of most human communities
    Calvino Rabeni: Also they don't get respect
    Calvino Rabeni: A little like ducks

    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: so ... dream chickens?!?
    Lucinda Lavender: So I am thinking about respect...does every thing warrant it?
    Lucinda Lavender: have experience a singe dream chick...except the one that appeared dead in the dream and then was also in waking the next day
    Calvino Rabeni: That has to be answered by looking first at oneself, I think
    Calvino Rabeni: By which I mean, to remove what separates self from the thing-itself, and then decide
    Calvino Rabeni: LIke, those books of animal symbols
    Calvino Rabeni: you know, like the animal medicine cards
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: they show a respectful attitude to all "nature's children"
    Calvino Rabeni: the mouse, the buffalo, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: the buffalo is not regarded as stupider than deer, even though it runs in a pack and can be made to jump off a cliff
    Calvino Rabeni: that quality is seen for its positive aspecets
    Calvino Rabeni: (which we were mentioning earlier about looking at religions - Murat Yagan)
    Calvino Rabeni: So the buffalo has a big heart
    Calvino Rabeni: bigger than the cow
    Calvino Rabeni: the mouse is not a weak little thief of our grain
    Calvino Rabeni: but a very sensitive and careful viewer of reality
    Calvino Rabeni: and a good listener
    Calvino Rabeni: etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: so that is,seeing the positive qualities of these beings
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: instead of evaluating them to human standards
    Lucinda Lavender: Have you had animals in dreams?
    Calvino Rabeni: In that way, the animals are seen as beings who are more specialized than humans
    Calvino Rabeni: which is true ...
    Lucinda Lavender: makes sense
    Calvino Rabeni: I have animals every now and then
    Lucinda Lavender: me too
    Lucinda Lavender: last was the lion
    Lucinda Lavender: no...last was a dog in a jar...
    Lucinda Lavender: I was able to get it out
    Calvino Rabeni: There are a lot of taboos that dreams skirt around, as you know
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I saw a skunk scoot under my neighbor's fence when I was out walking at night .. it felt like a dream symbol although I was awake.
    Lucinda Lavender: yes..and when we do things the not acceptible way there is a sense of the need for a new way being made...a newpathway
    Lucinda Lavender: when it feels drea like for me things slow down and I move and think slowly

    Calvino Rabeni: The dreams follow a greater set of rules than the socialized self
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: but probably some rules though ... seems like we all have many common dream epereinces
    Calvino Rabeni: A different meaning for "rules" perhaps?
    Calvino Rabeni: I meant, not regularities, but mores and socialized behavior patterns
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: such as water dreams, or looking fora a house to live in, flying, or someone has another person's face but you know who they are anyway
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Rules - such as, Thou shalt dream of public speaking in thy underwear!!
    Calvino Rabeni: "Thou shalt not kill"
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: so killing something in a dream, may represent overcoming some problem
    Calvino Rabeni: Or making a hard choice
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I feel that there are few mores or social patterns in dreamw
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, some are pretty habitual aren't they...
    Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes in lucid dreaming, one might have access to some "W"... and then not be bound by those rules
    Calvino Rabeni: But there are dreams of circumventing natural laws
    Calvino Rabeni: like - hmmm, I'm dreaming, so, why not fly?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or perhaps to use it as a way to test whether one is dreaming, or not dreamng
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I went through a stage of deliberately tring to lucis-dream. But now, for some reason, it doensn't interest me to try that.
    Lucinda Lavender: There are those moments whe in waking up it is a stressful thing that is seen...
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not interested to cause it to happen, but when it does, I enjoy it
    Lucinda Lavender: for me it is usually accompanied by questions I ask
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: One time, I realized I was dreaming, and I ripped off a woman's phony looking blonde wig!
    Calvino Rabeni: heheh
    Calvino Rabeni: (deja vu feeling about that, for some reason)
    Lucinda Lavender: ah
    Lucinda Lavender: like I say I wonder why X is happening?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I sometimes meet my (late) father in a dream. It is always a question ... you are dead? but not really because here you are?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It happened about a week ago ... this time I knid of knew it was a dream, but was just happy to see him.
    Lucinda Lavender: After my mom died I saw her and she asked in the dream if I needed an accompaniest...
    Lucinda Lavender: hmmm
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: When I woke up I had a warm feeling in my chest area ... that doesn't happen that often.
    Lucinda Lavender: nice
    Calvino Rabeni: I know that feeling
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Did she play the pinao then?
    Lucinda Lavender: cello
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Lovely
    Lucinda Lavender: but sometimes would help me practice singing a song
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: That's so nice Cinda.

    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Lucinda Lavender: Has your dad been dead long?
    Lucinda Lavender: no need to answer that...
    Lucinda Lavender: thinking out loud...well in type
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, it will be 20 years in about a month. Calvino knew him as well.
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So ,,, it's well accepted by this point.
    Lucinda Lavender: me too
    Lucinda Lavender: Cal knew my mom a bit too
    Lucinda Lavender: interesting..
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Wow, Calvino, you are a keeper of long friendships it seems.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: One of his lovely qualities.
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: I keep thinking lately about how our friendships that span many years are kind of like family
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: networks
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So on that pleasant note, I will sign off as I am recovering from a little cold and somewhat tired ... it's been nice, Cinda ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bye Calvino,
    Lucinda Lavender: yes...:) hope you feel better...must go too.
    Calvino Rabeni: OK :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Mitzi and Cinda - sleep / dream well :)
    Lucinda Lavender: same for you ...all
    Lucinda Lavender: working with the W
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: good luck with that! are for us all ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: so long
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye !

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