2010.07.01 01:00 - Synchronicity, Apophenia, Superstition and Overindulgence.

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.Present were Calvino Rabeni and Cosmicflower Ushimawa.

    How we are and making shelters from life:

    Zen Arado: Hi Cosmicflower :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: How are You?
    Zen Arado: not bad and you?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: feeling her-self
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: wondering
    Zen Arado: it is wet and windy here
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: cloudy here
    Zen Arado: we had 2 months of sunny weather
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: oh
    Zen Arado: now back to normal :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Yesterday here was wonderfull sunny day
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: still warm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but cloudy
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: at night I woke up on thundering
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: (sky did lightning)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not Cos thundering
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think I am quite fine
    Zen Arado: you sure?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: have made some shelters to her-self
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: few days
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: someone near
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: brings huge negas, and claims me to turn all negativ
    Zen Arado: if we have no pain and are still breathing that should be enough :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: seems
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: he is gone mad
    Zen Arado: ah
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so,
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think I am fine
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Zen Arado: it seems to be out thoughts make us feel bad
    Zen Arado: out*
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Zen Arado: our*
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, those times I think its more than important to keep tightly one-Self truth
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to remember One`s own worth
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: happy being, happy nature
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and do some shelters
    Zen Arado: shelters?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to cover one-self
    Zen Arado: sometimes I am trying to be more open
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I usually do visualice fire around me
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: when I need some shelter
    Zen Arado: then you get hurt :(
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: nooo
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not making "real" fire
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: shelter one
    Zen Arado: a temporary shelter
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it do not burn me ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Zen Arado: maybe we need that sometimes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think so too
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: eaven if I have mentioned I do not want to carry all of them people and their problems he "brings" with him with him
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: still
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: he do against my wish
    Zen Arado: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and turns it against me, finally
    Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hello Cal <3
    Zen Arado: I have someone like that too
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello <3 Cosmic and Zen :)
    Zen Arado: maybe we all have
    Zen Arado: sometimes it does me good
    Zen Arado: stops me from being too egotistical
    Zen Arado: I have a friend with ASpergers syndrome
    Zen Arado: she thinks very logically
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm

    My problem with 'synchronicity' :


    Zen Arado: but I have a problem with this lately - logical thinking I mean
    Zen Arado: someone started talking about 'synchronicity' lately
    Zen Arado: you ever heard of that?
    Zen Arado: tell me more about the person who gives you a problem Cos
    Zen Arado: seems we all have peoplelike that in our lives
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I am not sure if I have heard of it
    Zen Arado: and so little we can do about it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: takes her dictionary again
    Calvino Rabeni: It is like a coincidence - things happening together even with no direct cause
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hmm, I think I have not heart
    Zen Arado: something to do with seeing meaning in coincidences
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah
    Zen Arado: I looked it up
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it is due to Carl Jung?
    Zen Arado: http://www.skepdic.com/jung.html
    Zen Arado: yes Cal
    Zen Arado: but it set me wondering how much I can believe in these types of phenomena
    Zen Arado: I can be too rational at times maybe
    Zen Arado: but I don't think I have to swallow all kinds of superstitious nonsense either
    Zen Arado: Ung seems to have believed in all sorts of strange things
    Zen Arado: Jung*
    Calvino Rabeni: Synchronicity seems similar to an omen
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: as humans we seem to be always looking for meaning in things
    Calvino Rabeni: But I think, omens are harder to establish than synchronicities
    Zen Arado: you have to look back after an event
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, Zen, do you think that is a legitimate thing to do - to see meanings in unrelated events?
    Zen Arado: maybe seeing patterns in things was very useful for our survival as a species
    Zen Arado: but then we try to do it too much maybe?
    Calvino Rabeni: What is too much?

    Tarot reading, astrology, dream interpretation:

    Zen Arado: my mother used to tell people their fortunes from reading tea leaves
    Zen Arado: that is the question Cal
    Zen Arado: that is my problem
    Zen Arado: we read meaning into things that isn't there
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, well if someone swishes tea leaves, and then looks at the pattern, and it makes them think of something, then .. is there something wrong with that?
    Zen Arado: depends how much credence you give to it
    Calvino Rabeni: Suppose someone thinks of something - has an idea - for no apparent reason whatever - is that better than tea leaves?
    Zen Arado: or if someone makes a lot of money from it
    Zen Arado: ideas are ok
    Zen Arado: but if someone is teaching you a false belief?
    Zen Arado: there are lots of spititual charlatans out there I think
    Zen Arado: offer people enlightenment for sums of money
    Zen Arado: think we have to exercise our brains sometimes
    Zen Arado: no matter how much we 'want' to believe something
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I think you have to look at the whole relationshop
    Calvino Rabeni: *ship
    Zen Arado: so how do you feel about astrology?
    Calvino Rabeni: I few recreational thiings every now and then make little difference
    Zen Arado: oh yes sure
    Zen Arado: for fun
    Calvino Rabeni: but if big money is involved, or manipulation, then that is not a good relationship
    Zen Arado: you see - I studied a lot of philosophy
    Zen Arado: maybe that has made me too rational?
    Calvino Rabeni: What about Tarot reading - do you think it different or the same as astrology, in principle?
    Zen Arado: too skeptical?
    Zen Arado: sounds like reading tea leaves to me
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I do not know astrology
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but understand those tarots
    Zen Arado: my mother used to do that too
    Zen Arado: there could be an underlying psychology or personal feeling going on in a one on one meeting with someone
    Zen Arado: maybe that is what it is
    Zen Arado: not so much the cards thenselves?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think of it as more like art
    Zen Arado: tell me about your experience of Tarot Cos
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, sometimes I make a "table" for me
    Zen Arado: maybe Cal but it has a different aim?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and get "answers"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: clues
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: insights
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: those what I perhaps not "see" clearly
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or notice
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: what is usefull
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or helpfull
    Zen Arado: like meditation perhaps?
    Calvino Rabeni: OK zen, then what about dream interpretation
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: in situation what ever it is
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: no
    Calvino Rabeni: you read meaning into a series of images
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not meditation
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it comes straight to my head
    Zen Arado: it stimulates your thing then maybe?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: with being total aware
    Zen Arado: thinking*
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: no
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not thinking
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: knowing
    Zen Arado: ok
    Zen Arado: dreams give me the same problem
    Zen Arado: was thinking this morning - most of my dreams are about things I desire
    Zen Arado: I dream I am driving a car very often
    Zen Arado: because I can no longer do that in RL
    Zen Arado: and I meet women who are nice to me :)
    Zen Arado: so maybe it is more about the intuition or knowing we bring to the images or dreams than the dreams themselves?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think dream world is totally own distance
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: kind of

    Apophenia - do we add meanings where there are none?

    Zen Arado: the concept of 'apophenia' in that article really made me think
    Zen Arado: 'the ability of the human mind to find meaning and significance where there is none '
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and feel
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: on dream
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: is also something to think of
    Zen Arado: yes Cos
    Zen Arado: emotions are involved
    Calvino Rabeni: "when there is none" ?
    Calvino Rabeni: How could there be none?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: is it just showing something then?
    Zen Arado: http://www.skepdic.com/apophenia.html
    Zen Arado: he gives weird examples
    Zen Arado: of people reading all kinds of strange meanings into commonplace events
    Zen Arado: we forget how superstitious people were centuries ago
    Zen Arado: even my mother interpreted things like dropping a fork a certain way
    Zen Arado: if you dropped a knife that meant a stranger was coming
    Zen Arado: etc
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, well, that's not how I think of those things - I'm prefectly willing to read meaning "out" of things, but not "into" them.
    Zen Arado: but maybe we need this to be creative
    Calvino Rabeni: yes that makes sense
    Zen Arado: "The propensity to see connections between seemingly unrelated objects or ideas most closely links psychosis to creativity ... apophenia and creativity may even be seen as two sides of the same coin."
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: i think its superstition
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not to do with truth
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or knowing
    Calvino Rabeni: associations can be made intuitively, for unknown reasons, but possibly valid, and then "justified" by unrelated random events
    Zen Arado: or we could have a 'weird ' idea about space and time and then justify it mathematically like Einstein did
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, or get a hunch and then it turns out wrong, and not tell anyone :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe even forget it for oneself
    Zen Arado: ; read meaning "out" of things, but not "into" them.' like that Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: The brain works by creating multiple scenarios, mostly all wrong, and then hopefully narrowing down to some reasonable one(s)
    Calvino Rabeni: unconsciously
    Zen Arado: maybe it is holding ourselves open instead of grasping for what we want to believe
    Zen Arado: "Calvino Rabeni: The brain works by creating multiple scenarios, mostly all wrong, and then hopefully narrowing down to some reasonable one(s)"  - think that is how an intelligent person 'should' approach it Cal
    Zen Arado: but think we don't often do it
    Zen Arado: we are ruled by our desires more I think
    Calvino Rabeni: No, I think there's little intelligence in that process
    Calvino Rabeni: it is mostly automatic, non-volitional
    Zen Arado: well - it is logical and sensible anyway
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think it runs on logic
    Zen Arado: a good approach to solving a problem
    Calvino Rabeni: but it might be a good "design" that a logical designer would create, to get the job done
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: More like a neural net

    Feelings vs rationality:

    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: a good approach to solving a problem might come from inner feel?
    Zen Arado: yes Cos
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if thinking too much
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it gets a bit complicated
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how about letting go
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: problems
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not to carry them
    Zen Arado: but maybe feelings are selfish desires that we hide?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if seeing where those comes from
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: cant just take a cape for cover
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and take it off
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and throw away
    Zen Arado: falling in love is a good example
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, I don`t think feel is selfish thing
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think selfish thing is only to think one-self
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not making compromises
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or respecting others
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Love should respect as well
    Calvino Rabeni: true or not, it would be impossible to separate and sort them as selfish or not
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Zen Arado: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if can separate things
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its good
    Zen Arado: so...just rest in 'not knowing'?
    Calvino Rabeni: Feeling is basically our only method for assessing qualities
    Zen Arado: why not use our rational thinking as well?
    Calvino Rabeni: And people who have a damaged ability to feel, turn out to be terrible decision makers
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sometimes its needed to use head too
    Zen Arado: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: But not all the time
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sometimes breins can be "on the shelf"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and only to feel..
    Zen Arado: so we can be too rational and logical or too emotional and gullible?

    'Middle way'  - it comes up so often in these discussions:

    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if finding golden middle way
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its good
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Although people can be persuaded to bad decisions through logic - a different kind of gullible
    Zen Arado: true too Cal
    Zen Arado: logical fallacies
    Zen Arado: reminds me of Golden Mean fallacy
    Zen Arado: sometimes we might have to be extreme about something
    Zen Arado: anyway it's good as a general rule or approach to life I guess
    Calvino Rabeni: What is the general rule you have in mind?
    Zen Arado: oh just always taking the 'middle way'
    Calvino Rabeni: The middle way is not a compromise, it is a dynamic balance
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: using more different resources

    How much should we act from desires?

    Zen Arado: David Hume, 17th century philosopher, said we act mostly from our passions
    Zen Arado: and than add a veneer of rationality to explain it to ourselves and others
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there is nothing wrong in that
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: passion for life
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if something makes someone happy
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: why not go for it
    Zen Arado: ah but it means desires in English nowadays
    Calvino Rabeni: Desires are what gives life its energy and motive
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think so too
    Zen Arado: if we just obey our desires that would be bad
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: why it would be bad?
    Zen Arado: we would be like animals
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: no
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: we would be only happy
    Calvino Rabeni: Well we are animals - smart ones :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: mostly people do deny from them-selves
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, yes Cal
    Zen Arado: if I obeyed all my desires for food I would get very fat
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and actually
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it makes us "more" dangrous than animals are..
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: already
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if getting very fat
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then move too
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or what is wrong about being fat?
    Calvino Rabeni: So if you obeyed your desire not to be obese, you would moderate your eating
    Zen Arado: I would be even more immobile
    Zen Arado: ah we are talking about 'second order' desires
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd say, you have a desire to be mobile - and are acting on it :)
    Zen Arado: we want to want something
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: And a desire to be healthy
    Zen Arado: like smoking - we might want to stop wanting to smoke
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but if wanting is in humanity?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think it feeds life it-self
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: keeps people on move
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: about smoking
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if feeling guilty about it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it thinking its "bad"
    Zen Arado: think we will finish up with a middle way on this too :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I do not smoke
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: But
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I know its "good" for some people
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: smog is a spirit
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: as well is fire
    Calvino Rabeni: Actually one of the functions of the intellectual process is inhibition and impulse control
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and some people might need that smoke
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to keep their feets on the ground
    Calvino Rabeni: just as one of the functions of feeling, is movement control
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or they might get some insights
    Zen Arado: we know if we drink too much alcohol we will feel bad the next day
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Zen Arado: so we exercise restraint
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: question goes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: do we like to feel bad
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then not to do that kind of things
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but do those good things
    Calvino Rabeni: Or, during drinking, we remember how it felt last time
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: what makes us feel good
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes Cal, and stop on certain point
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: that drinking
    Zen Arado: but the other night I went to a dinner and I ate and drank far too much
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: when its still feeeling good
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and not geting bad feel on next morning
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: The intellect is a kind of executive, to solve problems when things go wrong
    Calvino Rabeni: break deadlocks, etc.
    Zen Arado: why did I do that?
    Calvino Rabeni: Like flipping a coin, when one has mixed feelings about a course of action
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: did You got hangover?
    Zen Arado: yes I felt bad testerday
    Zen Arado: yesterday*
    Zen Arado: fely guilty too
    Zen Arado: felt*
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: no need to feel guilty, I think
    Zen Arado: my inner critic
    Calvino Rabeni: If you remember accurately - everything about how the whole experience felt, then you will be better able to self-regulate in the future
    Calvino Rabeni: No need to lay the regulation task upon some critic or some logician
    Zen Arado: ha ha sometimes I don't listen to my logical mind :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Basically, the feeling mind will produce at least as good information as the logical mind
    Zen Arado: tell it to clear off - I want to have fun :)
    Zen Arado: but this is rare for me now
    Zen Arado: atmosphere and the people carry you away sometimes
    Zen Arado: temptations
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if that happens
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then its needed to happen
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby You needed that "too much"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby there were some good in it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ?
    Zen Arado: ha ha you are tempting me too Cosmic :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: LOL
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, at least I think so
    Zen Arado: maybe it is in our temperament too
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well
    Zen Arado: but that is an excuse too
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sometimes I wish to have less that temperament
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its strong both ways
    Zen Arado: we shouldn't feel guilty if we have enjoyed ourselves
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: in sun shining
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: as well in thundering
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ture
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: true
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or guilty of what ever we felt
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: take it ALL
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: TAKE IT ALL
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: LOL
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: laughing loud now
    Calvino Rabeni: If feeling leads to bad decisions, perhaps it needs to be better educated, or more aware
    Zen Arado: yes 'I want it all - and I want it now' :)
    Zen Arado: maybe Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Remember how it got to be this way
    Zen Arado: so the desire to go mad will diminish
    Calvino Rabeni: the world is finite - our desire is infinite
    Calvino Rabeni: were it not so, the human race would not have survived
    Zen Arado: true
    Calvino Rabeni: I know that's a bit of an exaggeration, but still basically true
    Calvino Rabeni: we're not designed by nature, to be easily satisfied
    Zen Arado: no sexual desire = no human race
    Calvino Rabeni: or no appetite for improving the world
    Zen Arado: no dissatisfaction we would still be in caves
    Zen Arado: anyway I have to go and do some work
    Calvino Rabeni: our appetites for food developed in a climate of scarcity
    Zen Arado: or I will feel guilty :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: oh, do not feel guilty
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: just joy
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: enjoy
    Calvino Rabeni: Guilt - a feeling of what needs to be done :)
    Zen Arado: thanks for enjoyable discussion :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its beter just DO it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: You're welcome
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ty Zen
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: have fun
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care, Zen
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Zen Arado: bye
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: bye
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hearts
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Se You soon Dear
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and have wonderfull Time
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Bye

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