2010.07.02 19:00 - Habits...

    Table of contents
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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lucinda Lavender. The comments are by Lucinda Lavender.


    stevenaia Michinaga: hello

    Lucinda Lavender: Hi Stevenaia...
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: Well I have managed to start this up.
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I just wanted to make sure somebody had, have you postted a log before?
    Lucinda Lavender: I have to check and see if the test message went through...
    Lucinda Lavender: no I have not
    Lucinda Lavender: and yes it seems to have worked
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi Arch!
    stevenaia Michinaga: there are instructions on the wiki,
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Arch
    Lucinda Lavender: yes I have read them
    Archmage Atlantis: Hiya Stevenaia. ......Hi Lucinda
    stevenaia Michinaga: the easiest way is jsut to copy from the web, paste in a new log, change the title then save, then reesdite add comments , format, etc
    stevenaia Michinaga: *re-edit
    Lucinda Lavender: ok:)
    stevenaia Michinaga: if you like I can check after you post it
    Lucinda Lavender: very nice!
    Lucinda Lavender: thanks for your help...
    stevenaia Michinaga: how are you Arch, haven;t seen you in a while?
    Archmage Atlantis: :) - could say the same...mismatched schedules I suppose??....anyway I am hopeful
    stevenaia Michinaga: :), yes
    Lucinda Lavender: hopeful...good to hear.
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, hopeful......that humankind will finally get "it" and our impact on this small aquarium of ours *g*
    Lucinda Lavender: *g* is a new word for me...
    Archmage Atlantis: Gotta go. Later guys :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Arch
    Lucinda Lavender: :) bye Arch!
    stevenaia Michinaga: poof
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Cal
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Lose an arch / gain a cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello
    Lucinda Lavender: yes:)))
    Lucinda Lavender: funny
    stevenaia Michinaga: like Clark Kent?
    Lucinda Lavender: what color would your cape be?
    stevenaia Michinaga: no shirt. no cape
    Lucinda Lavender: an invisible garment of Being
    stevenaia Michinaga: what color is Being?
    Lucinda Lavender: not sure...
    Lucinda Lavender: all colors and none?
    Lucinda Lavender: and
    Calvino Rabeni: A chameleon,perhaps
    Lucinda Lavender: nods
    stevenaia Michinaga: reminds me a bit abour how I dress in the morning, grab what is at hand and always forget to look at how it goes together, I suspect Being wouldn;t look back, being sees, not is seen

    Lucinda Lavender: Thinking about the word habit
    stevenaia Michinaga: word habit>
    stevenaia Michinaga: ?
    Lucinda Lavender: I have the habit of creating a colorful set of clothes ...yes the word "habit"
    stevenaia Michinaga: awww
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pila
    Pila Mulligan: greetings
    Lucinda Lavender: and when the word sits there it looks funny to me.
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi Pila!
    Lucinda Lavender: greetings...
    Lucinda Lavender: I have been noticing what my habits are...
    Pila Mulligan: are we not creatures of habit?
    Lucinda Lavender: it seems so...
    Pila Mulligan: it seems so to me too ...
    Pila Mulligan: I think the trick is to assure that your habits are healty
    Pila Mulligan: healthy*
    Pila Mulligan: at least a preponderance of them
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    stevenaia Michinaga: a habit give us a safe place to move ahead from too
    Pila Mulligan: they can simplify things
    Pila Mulligan: habits
    Lucinda Lavender: :)I am wondering why Nuns wear something called habits...
    Pila Mulligan: let's google :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol, thinking the same thing
    Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_habit
    stevenaia Michinaga: so much for simplicity
    Lucinda Lavender: :) Tanks Pla.
    Pila Mulligan: I dondoesn't say why though
    Pila Mulligan: I don't seewhere it says why
    Pila Mulligan: ahh. Latin: dreee or appearance
    Pila Mulligan: dress*
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=habit

    Pila Mulligan: originally pp. of habere "to have, to hold, possess,"
    Lucinda Lavender: Perhaps when it is worn it is helping one to hold a view.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, ... for self as well as for others, like a uniform.
    Pila Mulligan: it seems the etymology is the same for both versions -- a habit in action and in dress
    stevenaia Michinaga: when my spouse went to catholic girls school, she felt the uniform was a great equalizer
    Lucinda Lavender: yes...I have heard of that too.
    stevenaia Michinaga: considering she was jewish, she needed all th e equalization she could get
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: well, so was Jesus
    Lucinda Lavender: that way the people drop some of their individual view
    stevenaia Michinaga: but even he could not go to a girls school
    Pila Mulligan: yes, nuns are funnny that way
    stevenaia Michinaga: she viewed it as a "calls" equalizer, for rich and poor became irrelivent, intelligence was what mattered
    Pila Mulligan: and obedience
    stevenaia Michinaga: opps.*"class"
    stevenaia Michinaga: equalizer, rather
    Pila Mulligan: no offence to the nuns but the need for obedience seems to hav ebeen notorious, among folks I knew ion that path
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps in a convent the same was true in terms of faith
    Pila Mulligan: I once worked with a lawyer from a Catholic school and we had a case against a lawyer who had been a nun -- she made him very uptight
    Pila Mulligan: just her presence
    Lucinda Lavender: interesting.I am thinking about the different ways teachers work with children. There is quite a spectrum.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, and in fairness my cousin was a catholic preist who ran a motessori school, and he was the epitome of sincerity and gentless with kids
    Pila Mulligan: gentleness
    Pila Mulligan: the poor lawyer just had a lingering traumatized image of the authority of nuns
    stevenaia Michinaga: dificulty with dropping past images
    Lucinda Lavender: :) much is quiet in the montessori classroom...and the gentleness can be soothing...n
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: habits :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Lucinda Lavender: allows room to question with the mind
    Pila Mulligan: are you familiar with the term snaskara?
    Pila Mulligan: sanskara*
    Lucinda Lavender: what does it mean?
    Pila Mulligan: Meher Baba wrote a lot about sanskara
    Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskara
    Pila Mulligan: the imprints left on the subconscious mind by experience in this or previous lives, which then color all of life, one's nature, responses, states of mind, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: I have been discussing a book with a friend - about a woman who has a memory that is not capable of forgetting anything
    Calvino Rabeni: We rely so much on forgetting, not knowing things anymore
    Pila Mulligan: "The mental processes are partly dependent upon the immediately given objective situation, and partly dependent upon the functioning of accumulated sanskaras or impressions of previous experience... From the psychogenetic point of view, human actions are based upon the operation of the impressions stored in the mind through previous experience"
    Pila Mulligan: that would present a problem
    Pila Mulligan: overloaded
    Calvino Rabeni: "To Forget is To Forgive"

    Pila Mulligan: some research suggests a function of dreams is to sift through our sensory impressions in order to associate them with prior impressions and prioritize them for recollection and future availability
    Calvino Rabeni: A life organized around the inability to forget - would be a very different life than what nearly everyone has learned to handle
    Pila Mulligan: I think one of Heinlein's books had a character with that same problem
    Pila Mulligan: seem to recall
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Woman-Who-Cant...8121692&sr=8-4
    Calvino Rabeni: This is a case study of something unusual
    Lucinda Lavender: past experiences that are connected to desires
    Pila Mulligan: :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperthymesia same
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems to me, humans haven't come to terms yet with the hyperthmesia provided by their media, now that it is getting personal
    Calvino Rabeni: Dare I say "logging" :) ?
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: the pillars did not quake
    Calvino Rabeni: Not yet, but they might before we forget - oh, that's never ... :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Luckily the "read-back" function is still quite limited
    Calvino Rabeni: who has the time for it ... but what about in the future, when we have semantic machines to constantly ruminate over all those recorded memories?
    Calvino Rabeni: BTW, do you believe, that personal dreams are remembered to the degree that waking experiences are?
    Pila Mulligan: is that a question or an exclamation, Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: A question
    Lucinda Lavender: I only remember certain dreams...
    Pila Mulligan: I'd say yes in some cases
    Lucinda Lavender: for me they are pretty vivid
    Pila Mulligan: depends on the lucidity :)
    Lucinda Lavender: that makes sense to me
    Lucinda Lavender: more consciousness involved in seeing.
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems, waking life is rather non-lucid a great deal of the time
    Lucinda Lavender: nodding to that...
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Pila Mulligan: so are dreams
    Pila Mulligan: but then there are exceptions for both sides
    Lucinda Lavender: In dreams where there is a changing view of something I think I experience more lucidity.
    Lucinda Lavender: I slow down and allow the view more time.
    stevenaia Michinaga: so you can slow time in a dream?
    Pila Mulligan: interesting
    Lucinda Lavender: when I notice something in a dream...it sometimes feels like the unknown...that is when the slowing ocurrs.

    Pila Mulligan: "etymology: Latin lucidus, from lucēre -- 1. a. suffused with light ; luminous b. translucent 2. having full use of one's faculties ; sane " -- maybe the pace relates to the quality of light in the dream
    Lucinda Lavender: like getting a large dose of light! Knowlege?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: more light as in more perception
    Pila Mulligan: ever notice that light switches often do not function in dreams?
    Lucinda Lavender: :)))
    Lucinda Lavender: Have not tried them yet.
    Calvino Rabeni: What are the prospects for increased lucidity in waking life? (Is what I'm wondering)
    Pila Mulligan: similar, I'd say Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah
    Pila Mulligan: we can do things to enhance lucidity
    Calvino Rabeni: being reminded is not enough
    Pila Mulligan: if you act on being rmeinded however ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd say so much depends on learned skills of perception
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: that is, a reminder isn't effective, unless the response is to bring some skills into play
    Pila Mulligan: there you go :)
    Calvino Rabeni: it is not at all like, just being reminded to be aware, makes anything immediately possible
    stevenaia Michinaga: night all, my avaitar and RL me are both sleepie
    Pila Mulligan: sweet dreams Steve
    Lucinda Lavender: See you Steve:)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night - may lucidity follow you :)
    Lucinda Lavender: my first thought was something about the heartbeat.
    Pila Mulligan: in relation to .... (heartbeat)?
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance, you can be driving and not notice the lake, and be reminded to notice it, but can't be reminded to see it as if you're not already familiar with it
    Lucinda Lavender: ot sure...just a reminder of aliveness and then not sure what else.
    Pila Mulligan: ah, heartbeat as a reminder
    Pila Mulligan: or perception as a rmeinder
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, a reminder - but then what ...
    Lucinda Lavender: trusting aliveness
    Calvino Rabeni: so much emotional coloring of perception, seems automatic
    Pila Mulligan: dreams may be instructive here, as the lucidity always cycles with the less lucid it seems
    Pila Mulligan: by their contrast we notice their qualities
    Lucinda Lavender: back and forth or in and out
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Calvino Rabeni: like, say, a relative or acquaintance one finds annoying in some way - it seems to take great skill to be able to not have that reaction if it is habitual
    Pila Mulligan: same with waking
    Lucinda Lavender: feels like surfacing in water
    Pila Mulligan: true Cal
    Pila Mulligan: or a lawyer and a nun
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Pila Mulligan: the eeek reaction
    Lucinda Lavender: you know...I am kind of slow...maybe that helps:)
    Calvino Rabeni: And on another level - I'd say, it breaks the flow of experience to even begin to make conscious decisions about managing that experience
    Lucinda Lavender: laughing
    Calvino Rabeni: And in general, I'd say that was for most people, somewhat unpleasant ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Something to resist
    Calvino Rabeni: There almost seems a built-in relationship between being aware, and there being problems or something "broken" about experience
    Calvino Rabeni: It's like, experiences is a flow, a boat that rides down the stream of life, and when it runs aground, that's conscious awareness
    Lucinda Lavender: Because subjectivity feels like separation from something?

    Calvino Rabeni: Good point - that seems like a part of it surely
    Lucinda Lavender: frome movement to placement
    Calvino Rabeni: The kind of speculative awareness that happens here at PAB - kind of splitting, stepping back with part of oneself to see what the other part is doing - might be experienced as pretty unnatural in that it breaks the unity and flow of experience
    Calvino Rabeni: If it achieves useful analytical results, that might be one way to justify it
    Calvino Rabeni: but as an experience alone ... or for it's own sake - it is hard to make the case for it
    Pila Mulligan: it is a helpful yoga in my view, not a mental stimulant
    Calvino Rabeni: for people not already somehow inclined to like it
    Lucinda Lavender: except that when I step back I see myself as a body in a house on a planet in a solar system with emptiness and the truth of that seems very shal we say dreamy.
    Calvino Rabeni: What can be done to make that experience more palatable?
    Pila Mulligan: words do not need stimulation, the mind is usually pretty well-pressurized with them -- it is the body's need for balance that these pauses assist
    Calvino Rabeni: Because I was thinking back to your comment earlier about habits being healthy
    Calvino Rabeni: And manipulating one's own awareness could be done in a healthy way, or an unhealthy one, in my opinion
    Pila Mulligan: stepping back allows better sense of emptiness with the moment, in Lucinda's comment
    Calvino Rabeni: Like Will, it could be a knife that cuts the holder a little
    Pila Mulligan: the dreamy lucidity
    Pila Mulligan: that to me is balancing light
    Pila Mulligan: physically, not mentally
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: As I interpret that idea Pila, every mental act is at the same time a physical act , and it matters how it is enacted
    Lucinda Lavender: I am beginning to think about leaving...I have the opportunity to listen to music in a bit so I shall go.
    Pila Mulligan: well, you may be missing the part about mental arising from physical
    Pila Mulligan: nice to see you Lucinda
    Pila Mulligan: I mhope enjoy the music and your evening
    Lucinda Lavender: yes nice to see you Pila!
    Pila Mulligan: bye for now
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Cinda, have a good time !
    Lucinda Lavender: Thank both of you for this interesting look at it all...
    Pila Mulligan: and thank you
    Pila Mulligan: remembering pace
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Lucinda Lavender: ok over and out
    Pila Mulligan: roger
    Calvino Rabeni: roger :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: Cal do I have to save this somehow before leaving pab?
    Calvino Rabeni: No
    Lucinda Lavender: it is brobably in my email...
    Calvino Rabeni: It will send you the link in email
    Calvino Rabeni: when the session ends
    Lucinda Lavender: good.
    Lucinda Lavender: super!
    Pila Mulligan: in morse code it would be dah-di-dah (K = end)

    Calvino Rabeni: -.-. --.-
    Pila Mulligan: -.-
    Pila Mulligan: that was a long long time ago for me :)
    Pila Mulligan: amature radio
    Pila Mulligan: 1950's
    Calvino Rabeni: A long time indeed
    Pila Mulligan: funny to even remember it
    Calvino Rabeni: Recalling your statement, can you say more about it?
    Calvino Rabeni: the mental arising from the physical
    Pila Mulligan: -.-. --.- -.. . .-- -. ...- .- n. -.--
    Pila Mulligan: :) sorry reminiscing
    Pila Mulligan: sure, physical gives rise to mental
    Pila Mulligan: and the older I get the more it seems to hold true
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't see them as separate, but they do work together
    Pila Mulligan: cranky old futs for example
    Pila Mulligan: they are cranky because they are sore
    Pila Mulligan: sore physically = sopre meotionally
    Pila Mulligan: sore emotionally*
    Pila Mulligan: they are inseparable :0
    Calvino Rabeni: it's not such a closed system however
    Pila Mulligan: but the mond is less capable in relieveing the physical tha vice versa
    Pila Mulligan: mind*
    Pila Mulligan: as oyu said reminders alone are just that
    Calvino Rabeni: body pain .... need not lead to curmigeonhood
    Pila Mulligan: true, in a kind or gregarious person the body pain like any subjectivity gets subdued consciously
    Pila Mulligan: for the benefit of socialization
    Pila Mulligan: but I feel meher baba's idea of sanskara is rooted in the physical -- like scars
    Pila Mulligan: we have ingrained body tensions
    Pila Mulligan: nearly invisble to the consious mind
    Pila Mulligan: the lawyer's reaction to the nun in court was visceral
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes but we have body mechanisms to process or heal them
    Calvino Rabeni: And if those get stuck, we have various practices to make up for it
    Pila Mulligan: if we do them :)
    Pila Mulligan: we also have asprin, alcohol, drugs and violence
    Pila Mulligan: as outlets for them
    Pila Mulligan: or treatments
    Calvino Rabeni: Not effective
    Pila Mulligan: well, of dooubtful value at least :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Of doubful ability to relieve
    Pila Mulligan: the yoag practices are more likeky to rrelieve
    Pila Mulligan: yogaic*
    Pila Mulligan: yogic*
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: typic
    Calvino Rabeni: If done well, I think
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: You might have some ideas about that?
    Pila Mulligan: about ...?
    Pila Mulligan: done well?
    Calvino Rabeni: Effective practice, e.g. tai chi, yoga
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, I avoid the term effective (heavy social baggagae) so I will choose done well :)
    Pila Mulligan: an exercise done well is healthy :)
    Calvino Rabeni: As you wish - take the meaning, not the word :)
    Pila Mulligan: the idea of healthy is of course subjective too, but it is a guide that can be readily understoood in most cases
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I agree, but what if someone said - I don't understand, how can I tell if it is healthy or not ?
    Pila Mulligan: a legitimate question

    Calvino Rabeni: Long term results? Assessments in-the-moment?
    Pila Mulligan: the value is often concealed
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Pila Mulligan: I suppose we maintain a personal idea of what is healthy or valuable in that regard and simply do what we can to follow it
    Pila Mulligan: healers usually seem to have their own myhtology of what works
    Pila Mulligan: the value is if it really works
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they do, but some are also teachers, and it is something that could be communicated, even if subtle
    Pila Mulligan: and then there is the really long term value :)
    Pila Mulligan: is something good for the body also good for the soul?
    Pila Mulligan: if you take Jesus as an example, with crdence to the story, not always
    Calvino Rabeni: I would say yes usually
    Pila Mulligan: not to soound evangelical here, just a quick example
    Pila Mulligan: yes, usually, I agree
    Pila Mulligan: bt in some cases ethics sacrifices the body for a non-physical value
    Calvino Rabeni: And maybe certain cases are exceptions
    Pila Mulligan: yes, exceptions
    Pila Mulligan: not many though I'd say
    Calvino Rabeni: right, the bizarre cases, that seem like standouts, probably aren't a good basis for daily living
    Pila Mulligan: when what is taught is put into practice it involves subjectivity
    Pila Mulligan: that is also a basis for ethics :)
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, what about that?
    Pila Mulligan: I may give you an energy transmimssion that allows you to heal your sore toe
    Pila Mulligan: but you may eventually use it to rob a bank
    Calvino Rabeni: There's no time when anything is not subjective - it isn't like it exists in a pure state then gets degraded somehow
    Pila Mulligan: subjectivity can take things up or down, for sure
    Calvino Rabeni: Subjectivity - what is that distinguished from?
    Pila Mulligan: objectivity, in rhetoric :)
    Calvino Rabeni: e.g. one could just say Knowing
    Pila Mulligan: perhaps
    Pila Mulligan: one must first know what knowing means :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Really, or are you joking ::) ?
    Pila Mulligan: it is ironic isn't it
    Pila Mulligan: what does knowing mean to Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: Only if there is an expectation of it being possible
    Pila Mulligan: is it possible to know what knowing means
    Calvino Rabeni: A direct experience of whether something is healthy or not, for example
    Calvino Rabeni: with all its possibility of misunderstanding
    Pila Mulligan: well, starting from the extreme, it is not physically healthy to be cruelly tortured
    Pila Mulligan: yet it is physically healthy to do breathiing exercies appropriate to your condition
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd guess, why should we wonder if we can know knowing, rather than just going ahead and knowing what we need to know ?
    Pila Mulligan: so in the spectrum we can evaluate various acts
    Pila Mulligan: knowing the obvious
    Pila Mulligan: that's the simplest
    Pila Mulligan: obvious = what we need to know
    Calvino Rabeni: Philosophers like to consider the extreme cases, but they don't have that much bearing on life as it is lived
    Calvino Rabeni: The extreme cases just render the logic more stereotyped
    Pila Mulligan: to me there is a fairly extensive gray area of things that we may see but not really understand
    Calvino Rabeni: but in doing so, sacrifice realism and applicability
    Pila Mulligan: knowing and not knwoing, seeing but not groking
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I agree, actually it's all gray area
    Pila Mulligan: except perhaps at the edges :)
    Calvino Rabeni: in that the black and white are artificial
    Pila Mulligan: dropping an anvil on your toe is fairly obvious in these terms
    Pila Mulligan: but the elaboration of conditions not so extreme is less certain
    Calvino Rabeni: right, but, it isn't very effective to say - you'll do fine in life, just don't drop anvils on your toe
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: as noted above, I'm not very effective

    Calvino Rabeni: Um, like that was the end of the matter, and no more can be said or learned
    Pila Mulligan: this phase of our conversation evolved from the idea of subjectivity
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you mean, not effective in practice, or not effective in explaining?
    Pila Mulligan: both
    Pila Mulligan: my ubsjectivity excludes effectiveness as a value
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd rather have as a teacher, someone effective in practice but poor in explaining, to the other way around
    Pila Mulligan: thast's nice
    Pila Mulligan: what then would effecitve in practice mean?
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, I thought we were going to forget that word and think about what it means instead :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Ok, call it the E-Factor
    Calvino Rabeni: Suppose someone has the E-Factor with respect to their practice
    Calvino Rabeni: And they have students, and it is their job to communicate
    Calvino Rabeni: such that the students can somehow also have the E-Factor
    Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe, they already do - but don't know how to identify it
    Calvino Rabeni: as these things are inconsistent while being learned
    Pila Mulligan: actually I was mostly interested in hearing how you describe a teacher "effective in practice" :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I would guess, that the principles are the same for different realms of experience
    Pila Mulligan: more as a disambiguation of the value
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe, for example, one who can do quality Tai Chi
    Calvino Rabeni: Or as a student, can learn rapidly
    Pila Mulligan: a quality such as healthy for exmaple
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Pila Mulligan: ok, healthy tai chi has menaing to me :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I believr, it is a mistake, to consider qualities as something "merely" subjective
    Pila Mulligan: subjectively :)
    Pila Mulligan: but I do it anyway
    Calvino Rabeni: without its physical embodiment
    Pila Mulligan: I agree there are consistent conditins in physical embodiement but to me it is difficult to find consistency in describing them
    Pila Mulligan: like the blind men and the lephant
    Calvino Rabeni: Are there some qualities associated with "healthy"
    Pila Mulligan: subjectively, I see such qualities associate dwith healthy, yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps consistency of description is a hobgoblin :)
    Pila Mulligan: description per see id somewhat demoinc
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but why say, subjectively ?
    Pila Mulligan: ever heard an eye witness in a court room?
    Calvino Rabeni: Don't you believe the qualities to be physically present and observable?
    Pila Mulligan: they are indeed, buit no dscribable :)
    Pila Mulligan: not*
    Calvino Rabeni: Agree, but what then ? The teacher still has the same job
    Pila Mulligan: lawyer use the term *percipient* witness
    Pila Mulligan: a witness observing or perceiving an act or event
    Calvino Rabeni: of communicating the experience and pracitce
    Pila Mulligan: even expert witnesses usually disagree
    Pila Mulligan: oin some points
    Calvino Rabeni: even when it's regarded as ultimately futile to describe a quality
    Calvino Rabeni: Is that really a problem?
    Pila Mulligan: as social beings human communicate all the time
    Pila Mulligan: it is only a problem when the reuslt is unhealthy
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, we communicate all the time, in spite of the fact, that nearly all experience is unsayable, undescribable
    Pila Mulligan: :0
    Pila Mulligan: our mind is well pressuirzed with words
    Calvino Rabeni: So perhaps it might be "healthy" to stop worrying about that description problem
    Pila Mulligan: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: and let go of the pressure of words
    Pila Mulligan: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: The descriptive power of language - is it not an overrated, unrealistic fantasy?
    Calvino Rabeni: No one has every been able to describe a quality anyway
    Pila Mulligan: poetry can be evocative
    Pila Mulligan: did ou see the PBS series on Buddha?
    Pila Mulligan: you*
    Calvino Rabeni: the only things that can be described, are factual and quantitiative
    Pila Mulligan: recently

    Calvino Rabeni: Luckily there is the poetic mode of language to rely on - were it not for that, we would be in extremely sorry circumstances :)
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.pbs.org/thebuddha/miracles/
    Pila Mulligan: quoting W.S. Merwin, poet: "The great field of knowledge is as tiny as the earth is in the universe. I mean it's tiny…it's a speck, and the universe is what we don't know, and it will always be that way; however much we find out, it will still be that way because the unknown is vastly, it's unspeakably greater than anything we will ever know."
    Calvino Rabeni: No, tell me about it ?
    Pila Mulligan: Merwin was just named US Poet Laureate
    Pila Mulligan: a Zen Buddhist
    Calvino Rabeni: I sort of agree with that quote = but would be happier if the word "undescribable" was substituted for "unknown"
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: because it would still be true
    Pila Mulligan: he probably would ont argue
    Calvino Rabeni: and soemwhat more representative of real life
    Pila Mulligan: I tihnk they were discussing miracles in relation to nowledge at that pojt
    Pila Mulligan: point*
    Pila Mulligan: "the whole unknown time and space has led down to this…has led to this very moment where we're sitting here talking, when we are sitting here talking to each other, is utterly miraculous."
    Pila Mulligan: Zen Poet :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Indeed
    Calvino Rabeni: Indescribable and bottomless
    Pila Mulligan: like Wol's pajamas
    Calvino Rabeni: heheh
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Or more so
    Pila Mulligan: perhaps :)
    Pila Mulligan: but, restoring an earlier topic, my persistent eblief is that however we relate to communication, health is largely related to the physical
    Calvino Rabeni: yes ... I agree ... my question was, how to communicate that belief
    Pila Mulligan: a lng term question I'd say
    Calvino Rabeni: or, rather, beyond that as a bare statement, what more is there to say?
    Pila Mulligan: here we ran into subjectivty :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Like - who is buried in grant's tomb
    Calvino Rabeni: Not that again :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Well can we just sneak by it this time ?
    Pila Mulligan: the tomb may just possibly have no occupant
    Pila Mulligan: I never eally liked Grant that much
    Calvino Rabeni: Metaphorically
    Calvino Rabeni: health is related to the physical
    Pila Mulligan: well, the metaphor ilustrates a self-answering question
    Pila Mulligan: health i slargely a self-evident condition
    Pila Mulligan: but not entirely
    Calvino Rabeni: so the grant's tomb idea is - ok, then, how about being aware of one's body, as a step towards knowing what is healthy?
    Pila Mulligan: yes, defintiely a helpful idea
    Pila Mulligan: and there is where I say the 9 second pause really operates
    Calvino Rabeni: Self evident, if the self looks at the evidence?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Not a guaranteed thing
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Calvino Rabeni: that sounds right
    Pila Mulligan: reminders are simply reminders
    Calvino Rabeni: they are like a check - you still need money in the bank to cash them
    Pila Mulligan: chekcing your balance
    Calvino Rabeni: :))
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, so "balance" seems a quality aspect of being healthy
    Pila Mulligan: in your practice you may have seen how a body has a metaphorical shape, like an aura
    Pila Mulligan: a mixture of chi, posture, etc
    Calvino Rabeni: Poise, flexibility, strength, relaxation, ...
    Pila Mulligan: a comunicative impression of well-being
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Pila Mulligan: well, that is also valuabel to cultivate
    Pila Mulligan: healthy
    Pila Mulligan: but what about Stephen Hawking
    Pila Mulligan: there are always limits
    Pila Mulligan: so we do what we can
    Calvino Rabeni: we can use a word like "freedom" in that regard
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: A healthy person has a greater sense of freedom
    Calvino Rabeni: An ill person feels or is, narrowed in what is possible
    Pila Mulligan: my guess is that Stephen Hawking has a unique personal condition of well-being

    Pila Mulligan: less obvious but quite real
    Calvino Rabeni: What do you see in Hawking?
    Calvino Rabeni: (and I can tell about an analogous example)
    Pila Mulligan: well, I'm not able to say with certainty, but he communicates an impression of well-being comparable to what we tlaked about earlier, but plainly not physical
    Pila Mulligan: not just a vocal thing of course
    Pila Mulligan: an impression
    Calvino Rabeni: of course, even though the voice is a holistic reflection of overall health
    Pila Mulligan: yes but I believe his voice is synthetic
    Calvino Rabeni: My example - I know a man crippled by infant polio, never grew much, or able to walk
    Calvino Rabeni: but, he functions skillfully as a public speaker
    Calvino Rabeni: and his voice has great dynamic range and ability to communicate feeling
    Calvino Rabeni: but of course, so much of that is also about understanding and insight backing up the expression
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: so there's a strength and healthiness belying the state of his physical form
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Calvino Rabeni: and in that way, making a contrast, that helps me see those qualities as exceptional
    Calvino Rabeni: and somehow related to health, or maybe charisma
    Pila Mulligan: knowing what is healthy needs an open mind then
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes true
    Calvino Rabeni: A way of being perceptive?
    Pila Mulligan needs to move his carcass around some now, do some tai chi, eat, sleep :)
    Pila Mulligan: nice chatting with you Calvino
    Pila Mulligan: bye for now :)


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    Yay !! Congrats on hosting your first session Lucinda! :) You and Cosmic are defniitely 'jumpers in' hah
    Posted 13:48, 3 Jul 2010
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