2010.07.03 13:00 - Concepts and experiences

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Darren Islar. The comments are by Darren Islar.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi darren
    Darren Islar: hey Yaku :)

        --BELL--

    Darren Islar: hi QT
    Qt Core: Hi Darren, Yaku
    ZJ Folsom: hi is this the place
    Darren Islar: hi ZJ
    Qt Core: Hi
    Darren Islar: what place are you looking for?
    Darren Islar: you are now at PaB
    ZJ Folsom: 1 pm
    Darren Islar: Play as Being
    Darren Islar: we have a session at 1 pm yes
    ZJ Folsom: guess thatas a time
    Agatha Macbeth: Evening all :)
    Darren Islar: hi Agatha
    Qt Core: Hi Agatha
    Darren Islar: this is the first time you are here ZJ?
    Agatha Macbeth: No Fracture tonite sadly...
    ZJ Folsom: i think so
    Darren Islar: did somebody inform you about this group?
    ZJ Folsom: in FL
    Qt Core: Fracture, Agatha ?
    Agatha Macbeth: Usually dance there on a Saturday :)
    Wol Euler: hello everyone
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey wol :)
    Darren Islar: I'll give you an introduction in IM
    Agatha Macbeth: Wol's on her way too
    Qt Core: ahh, lucky for us then ;-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Here she is
    Yakuzza Lethecus: qt, aga
    Qt Core: Hi Wol
    Darren Islar: hi Wol
    ZJ Folsom: TY Dar actually got that earlier : )
    Darren Islar: okay
    Darren Islar: so, you also know that we record these sessions and publish them on our wiki
    ZJ Folsom: yeps --looked at wiki and kira
    Darren Islar: ok
    ZJ Folsom: and ur not in voice , yes
    Darren Islar: no, we're not in voice
    Darren Islar: we have a voice session once a week
    Yakuzza Lethecus: friday from noon until 1 pm
    Agatha Macbeth: Tho we do have a voice session on Fridays
    ZJ Folsom: kool can avoid that like transcripts of txt
    Darren Islar: sorry, don't understand your last remark
    ZJ Folsom: i don't voice --prefer txt with transcript
    Darren Islar: ah, ok

        --BELL--

    ZJ Folsom: and am often non-undersdtandable both Ls
    Darren Islar: anyone a topic for tonight
    Darren Islar: maybe something you came across this week
    Darren Islar: an experience or awareness
    Agatha Macbeth ponders...
    Wol Euler: I've never been aware of being so miserably uncomfortable in summer heat and humidity before. Maybe the weather is changing, or perhaps I'm just getting old
    Agatha Macbeth: Me too
    Wol Euler: I could take a shower every hour and still feel sticky
    Wol Euler: this is probably rather more intensely real than you wanted to talk about, Darren :)
    Darren Islar: hehehe
    Wol Euler: I have no philosophical or meditative topic today, sorry
    ZJ Folsom: i been required to murder green guys
    Darren Islar: anything goes
    Agatha Macbeth: Aliens ZJ?
    Wol Euler: or ecologists?
    Agatha Macbeth: Ha!
    Darren Islar: but the question is what we do with feeling uncomfortable
    ZJ Folsom: to some but just kool plant ppl to me but management wants them military crew cutted
    Agatha Macbeth: Aw, poor plants
    ZJ Folsom: i got em too a coupla feet letting em b naturalk
    ZJ Folsom: they mangmnt try be nice --say dont y want to fine me or evict me but still say 'murder ' em
    Darren Islar: but yes, we talk a lot about time, no time, being, things like that, but hot seems to be very real, time or no-time
    Qt Core: have to go (about the temp, just try to not notice it)
    Darren Islar: bye QT
    Agatha Macbeth: Aw, ciao QT
    Wol Euler: oh, wow. ZJ is ancient, rezzed in August 2006
    Qt Core: bye all, have fun (and some fan too)
    Wol Euler: bye qt, take care
    ZJ Folsom: yes i is : ))
    Agatha Macbeth: That sure is one old guy :)
    Wol Euler: still has an utterly blank profile after 1407 days, though :)
    Agatha Macbeth: I was only 300 a coupla days ago
    ZJ Folsom: nah i juss a kid or kidder
    ZJ Folsom: my paratar may b old tho
    Wol Euler: I'll be 1000 in two and a half months, I should throw a party
    Agatha Macbeth gives you a walking stick
    ZJ Folsom: wow we all oldees
    Wol Euler whacks you on the butt with it
    Darren Islar: hi Ewan
    Agatha Macbeth: It's not THAT big!
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Ewan
    Agatha Macbeth: Nice to see you again
    Agatha Macbeth: (Looks like a slow rez)
    ZJ Folsom: he's out therer tho
    Wol Euler: (this is why I never greet people until/unless they actually walk into the Playgoda)
    Agatha Macbeth: He's shy ;-)
    Darren Islar: he crashes a lot
    ZJ Folsom: : )) yes
    Agatha Macbeth: He's been here before I'm sure
    Wol Euler: oh yes
    Darren Islar: yes
    Agatha Macbeth: I remember the name 'Bonham' :)
    Wol Euler taps out the lick to "When the levee breaks"
    Agatha Macbeth: As in Led Zep
    Wol Euler: snap
    Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
    Agatha Macbeth: Whole lotta Love
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: four sticks
    Wol Euler: whole lotta good drumming in them thar songs
    Agatha Macbeth: And of course Stairway to Heaven
    Agatha Macbeth swoons
    Wol Euler props you up with her walking stick

        --BELL--

    Agatha Macbeth whacks YOUR butt this time
    ZJ Folsom: btw anybody [else] notice we are all Irish : )
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Wol Euler looks for shamrocks
    Agatha Macbeth: Ha, yes
    Agatha Macbeth: Shows how popular Viewer 2 must be
    Wol Euler: ah, the emeralds. heh
    ZJ Folsom: yes --it sukketh
    Wol Euler: I had the chatlog window pulled down too low, didn't notice
    Agatha Macbeth: Lot of Emerald at PaB
    ZJ Folsom: i notice lots all over
    Agatha Macbeth: I do sometimes use Snowglobe as well
    Agatha Macbeth: Ewan seems to have given us a miss
    ZJ Folsom: but he were emmie too
    ZJ Folsom: so is this a 'normal' PaB disscuss?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, not a theme session or something
    ZJ Folsom: so normally 'so meditative'
    Darren Islar: this is an open group, so the topic can be anything
    Darren Islar: about something serious, or just chittchatting
    ZJ Folsom: or nothin ok --i readin a book for a friend she readin it too'
    ZJ Folsom: book is by Karen Armstrong
    Darren Islar: it depends on what the people who are here want
    ZJ Folsom: is called 'the gospel according to woman'
    Darren Islar: I know the name Karen Armstrong
    Darren Islar: Talking to God is that a book of hers
    Wol Euler: interesting title
    ZJ Folsom: she got TED.org 100,000 USD in '08
    ZJ Folsom: very kool woman
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, the former nun?
    ZJ Folsom: history of god and case for god talk about not to : )
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes, I remember her from many years :)
    Darren Islar: ah, bad Dutch translation then
    ZJ Folsom: yes former nun also been well into other two from the cresent and backgrounds Eastern as well
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    Agatha Macbeth: I remember a TV series she did on UK TV many years ago
    ZJ Folsom: its subtitle is 'christianity's creation ofthe sex war in the west'

        --BELL--

    Wol Euler: hejhehgeh
    ZJ Folsom: she is wjhat i told ppl is tho involved in theology not a theologian but a theologist
    ZJ Folsom: those warnings are for voice, yes
    Agatha Macbeth: Not sure of the difference between Theologian and Theologist
    Darren Islar: which warnings?
    Darren Islar: he 90 seconds
    ZJ Folsom: theologian is caught up in relio dogma theologist is more objrective studying not sprouting
    ZJ Folsom: yes Darr
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, right
    Darren Islar: they are both or voice as chat
    Darren Islar: silence means not expressing yourself for a moment in the group
    Wol Euler: we do try to stop talking and meditate for that time
    Darren Islar: taking a moment for yourself
    Agatha Macbeth: (Not all of us succeed :))
    Wol Euler: :)
    ZJ Folsom: ok that kool what thought at 1st but it does disrupt if cant type and see at same time : ))
    Darren Islar: there is a bel for that purpose
    Darren Islar: bell
    Agatha Macbeth: That's what the dong is :)
    Darren Islar: a low one that starts the 90 secs, a high one at the end
    ZJ Folsom: but not heard tho have sound on --from all that music earlier
    Darren Islar: okay
    Darren Islar: well you can also see the fountain change in a mist
    ZJ Folsom: cant see when paratar types
    Darren Islar: it is a suggestions, sometimes taken lightly, sometimes taken more serious
    ZJ Folsom: i ok with --just wonderin
    Darren Islar: (what a typos)
    Darren Islar: (in my writing I mean)
    ZJ Folsom: so this was one of her earlier books about '86 i think and it deals with a major subjection of woman by western christianity
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes, I remember that
    ZJ Folsom: sdhe compares it at one point with contempory feminism
    ZJ Folsom: and how hard it is to rid the old 'memes' [my inturp]
    ZJ Folsom: does this group deal with memetics??
    Agatha Macbeth: Don't know it sorry
    Wol Euler: I've no idea
    Darren Islar: me neither
    Wol Euler: what are they?
    Wol Euler: ah the study of memes (it says here)
    Darren Islar: and memes are.......?
    Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memetics
    Darren Islar: thanks
    Wol Euler: memes are to culture as viruses are to bodies :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Cultural genes?
    Wol Euler: little bits of info that replicate themselves
    Agatha Macbeth now understands
    ZJ Folsom: ok --in selfish gene Dawkins came up with in chapn 11 the concept of memes as a cultural equivalent to genes
    Agatha Macbeth: Right
    ZJ Folsom: actully memes are deeper than that --ALL things of culture are memes
    Wol Euler: "Susan Blackmore (2002) re-stated the meme definition as whatever is copied from one person to another person, whether habits, skills, songs, stories, or any other kind of information. Further she said that memes, like genes, are replicators. That is, they are information that is copied with variation and selection. Because only some of the variants survive, memes (and hence human cultures) evolve. Memes are copied by imitation, teaching and other methods, and they compete for space in our memories and for the chance to be copied again."

        --BELL--

    ZJ Folsom: memes can be used [new memes ] to make a new healthier species
    ZJ Folsom: hi zon
    Zon Quar: heya
    Wol Euler puts a finger to her lips
    Darren Islar: hey Zon
    Agatha Macbeth: Aloha Zon
    ZJ Folsom: yes Wol --but memes alsio the diff between bonobos and chimps
    Wol Euler: hello zon
    Wol Euler: well, there are also biological differences there.
    Wol Euler: they are distinct specids
    Wol Euler: *species
    Agatha Macbeth: What's a bonobo?
    ZJ Folsom: lol i do seem ta get [not] caught by the bell every time : )
    Wol Euler: it would be truer to say that memes are the difference between Americans and the English
    Darren Islar: some kind of ape
    Wol Euler: a species of primate, smaller than chimps, very social, very active sexually
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh, randy primates eh?
    Wol Euler: matriarchal societies founded on what we'd call free love :)
    ZJ Folsom: yes Wol --but that smaller diff both amers and brits --kill
    Agatha Macbeth: Sounds good
    Wol Euler: I meant that there is a biological difference between chimps and bonobos, memes don't explain everything. There is no biological diff between Americans and English, so the cultural differences are purely memetic
    Darren Islar: they are the only spiecy that faces each other during sex, except of course for humans
    ZJ Folsom: they practice intimacy while chimps still power hungry male dominated
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah
    ZJ Folsom: so will it geyt biol if brits and amers stay seperate longer
    Wol Euler: sure, but human societies don'T work that way. We travel, and we have affairs
    Agatha Macbeth: I think mass media prevents that
    Wol Euler: the gene pool is constantly in Brownian motion :)
    ZJ Folsom: send them off in sep spac eships for a long time
    Agatha Macbeth: As in Planet of the Apes?
    ZJ Folsom: so's the meme pool
    ZJ Folsom: cept most talk is really bout pre-memes we have few real memes about just fragments like bio a billion yrs ago
    Darren Islar: I guess we just don't know
    Darren Islar: those are big concepts that are hard to crack in this way
    ZJ Folsom: need experiment with cultural varients like th egreeks and upstate NYers did : ))
    ZJ Folsom: ?? Darr
    Darren Islar: when tradition kicks in, it is hard to say how species changes, but we do know they changes without memes
    Darren Islar: it is about nature-nurture
    Darren Islar: one opinion against the other
    ZJ Folsom: yes bio evolutionists caught up a century ago
    ZJ Folsom: but in last 100 or so yrs we shud understand that if we know how --conscious evolution is possible --memetically at the very least
    Darren Islar: to me it is more interesting to see what that means to us, how do memes effect us, no use to talk about big concepts
    ZJ Folsom: bonobos and chimps changed memes before genes and cousin human staid mainly chimp ---or chump
    Darren Islar: to me it is not interesting to know if it changes the spiecies, how dus it effect us, sitting here
    ZJ Folsom: we live as a sick species --way alienated we need change to an intimate species ---we need evovle or die

        --BELL--

    Agatha Macbeth: Can't argue with that
    ZJ Folsom: humans are extinctifying!!
    ZJ Folsom: bonobos and chimps show -by demonstration- there is a way - a means
    ZJ Folsom: : )))
    Darren Islar: ZJ, that you don't notice the bell is not about you typing, it is about you being all in your head, only trying to put out what is in there
    ZJ Folsom: nah i just turned volume up high may catch it nex time
    Darren Islar: and being silence is about experience
    Wol Euler nods.
    Darren Islar: not about what is in your head
    Darren Islar: or ot only, I should say
    ZJ Folsom: ot ??
    Wol Euler: not
    Darren Islar: sorry: not only
    ZJ Folsom: ah --but u are assuming --that in head of urs??
    Darren Islar smiles
    Darren Islar: sure
    Darren Islar: what I actually did, is that I felt an irritation
    ZJ Folsom: ah !!
    Darren Islar: an irritation about an unsovable problem
    ZJ Folsom: me or what i talkin about
    Darren Islar: I miss the way that a discussion can flow
    ZJ Folsom: btw that unsolvable also in head an inturp
    Darren Islar: and discussions only flow if people want to make an effort to come forward
    Darren Islar: not just with ideas, but with who they are
    Darren Islar: and if there is respect for those experiences
    ZJ Folsom: ah so my assumption is that i of next species --so is who i r
    Darren Islar: sorry, don't get your last remark
    Wol Euler: nor I
    ZJ Folsom: was response to who i r --actually my intent was to observe but then we have 15 mins of silence twween the 90 secs
    Darren Islar: sometimes that happens
    ZJ Folsom: i shared my assumption that i consider self part of next species --that isa who i r
    Darren Islar: ok, I understand your remark now
    ZJ Folsom: oh good what are u understanding ??
    Wol Euler: this isn't a pissing contest, ZJ, I'm sorry if we gave you that impression earlier
    Agatha Macbeth smiles
    Wol Euler: I have to move on, sorry, it's getting late.
    Wol Euler: goodnight all
    ZJ Folsom: actually aswking for feed bak on understanfding is normal to assurred communication as opposed to assumed --is why i asked
    Darren Islar: bye Wo, Agatha
    Darren Islar: *Wol
    Agatha Macbeth: I must go too folks, take care :)
    ZJ Folsom: bye
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now Daz :)
    Darren Islar: well, maybe it should be better to keep it close, nearby

        --BELL--

    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye for now
    ZJ Folsom: volume helps --heard it that time
    Darren Islar: ok, thanks
    Darren Islar: it is hard to talk about a big concept
    Darren Islar: it is easier to talk about what you think that should evolve
    ZJ Folsom: is easy talk bout big concepts hard to activate them
    Darren Islar: going from your own experience
    Darren Islar: bye Yaku :), sorry, almost forgot
    ZJ Folsom: i think not what but how --what is for those evolving
    Darren Islar: it would be interesting to know what you need
    ZJ Folsom: bye Yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i was looking for the landmark and wanted to take a look at the place vic was advertising a talk
    Yakuzza Lethecus: now really bye
    ZJ Folsom: : )
    ZJ Folsom: you need?? Darr?
    Darren Islar: how do you develop?
    ZJ Folsom: i guess is about my time to leave too!
    Darren Islar: okay
    Darren Islar: my time too
    ZJ Folsom: oh u mean develope new species
    Darren Islar: no, I mean developing yourself
    Darren Islar: since your self seems to be part of it
    ZJ Folsom: i start with clarifying communication from assumed to assured in a group intimacy developement mode
    Darren Islar: sorry?
    ZJ Folsom: here s a note on
    ZJ Folsom: has been worked on in FL and several groups in SL
    Darren Islar: I only read the first few lines, but it doesn't seem to me that is what your were doing
    Darren Islar: this is about asareness
    Darren Islar: awareness
    ZJ Folsom: of course not this a converse not a cxommunic
    Darren Islar: non dualistic
    ZJ Folsom: kinda Dzogie
    Darren Islar: that is about experience and becoming aware of it
    Darren Islar: not about talking about big concepts
    ZJ Folsom: yes
    Darren Islar: that is not intimate
    Darren Islar: it leaves you out
    ZJ Folsom: and becoming a societal being an organism
    ZJ Folsom: u need experience triading before denying it
    Darren Islar: I am not denying what is in your notecard
    ZJ Folsom: is kind of a long note get in touch if interested after reading
    Darren Islar: I'm simply saying that talking about concepts is not about awarenes
    Darren Islar: awareness
    ZJ Folsom: u sed not about big concepts and not intimate
    ZJ Folsom: u say experience --and i agree
    Darren Islar: right
    ZJ Folsom: ok so i go now we can talk a nothewr time --or even set up a triad :)
    Darren Islar: we could yes
    Darren Islar: because this only works if you do it right
    Darren Islar: bye for now
    ZJ Folsom: yes --i agree too

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