2010.07.04 19:00 - WOK-ing Around

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     The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.


    Paradise Tennant: hiya cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evenningg, Paradise :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles did you have a good day :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I it was - different than I expected, but good nonetheless
    Calvino Rabeni: And you?
    Paradise Tennant: smiles sorry putting on the kettle going to make chai
    Calvino Rabeni: Good idea - I'll put on my kettle as well
    Paradise Tennant: yes I had a great day .. went antiqueing spent the afternoon at the office then watched chic flick with mom all good :) dog grumped about our choice but was outvoted :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Nice :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Caro
    Caro Oceanlane: hi calvino
    Caro Oceanlane: hi paradise
    Paradise Tennant: hiya caro :)
    Paradise Tennant: hiya xeno :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Have you been to this meeting before?
    Xeno Octavia: hi Para
    Xeno Octavia: ive been to two
    Calvino Rabeni: I remember, Xeno
    Calvino Rabeni: Caro, can I give you a note card about this meeting place?
    Xeno Octavia: this my friend Caro
    Paradise Tennant: smiles a pleasure to meet you both :)
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, so you have filled Caro in on some basic facts
    Caro Oceanlane: I believe Xeno shared one with me earlier today.. i'm very curious..
    Xeno Octavia: didn't tell her bout 90 sec breaks
    Calvino Rabeni: One thing that visitors need to know, is that the chat we say is recorded and saved on our web page
    Caro Oceanlane: ok!
    Xeno Octavia: yes that very kool
    Calvino Rabeni: So that we ask for consent from visitors about that
    Caro Oceanlane: i like the idea of 90 sec breaks...
    Caro Oceanlane: yes, that's fine..
    Calvino Rabeni: most people find it acceptable and even useful
    Calvino Rabeni: but sometimes people have concerns with privacy, whichh isokt
    Calvino Rabeni: *OK too, I meant :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Then, every 15 minutes there is a bell that rings
    Calvino Rabeni: and then for 90 seconds we stop what we are doing and engage in a mini-meditation - just paying attention to awareness
    Caro Oceanlane: i like the background sounds
    Calvino Rabeni: after that, we might notice new things to bring into the discussion
    Calvino Rabeni: one of those bells is coming right up within a minute :)
    Paradise Tennant: we are coming to one soon :)

    Paradise Tennant: smiles ... I focused on my breath and the sound of my dishwasher going in the background :)
    Paradise Tennant: the scent of a cup of chai beside me :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi, welcome, Mitzi :)
    Paradise Tennant: hiya mitzi :)
    Xeno Octavia: hi mit
    Caro Oceanlane: hi, mitzi!
    Caro Oceanlane: i'd enjoy the sound of a dishwasher :-)
    Xeno Octavia: friend Rivka may bE COMING SOONLY TOO
    Paradise Tennant: smiles it is kind of nice :)
    Calvino Rabeni: During that pause I noticed the dogs next door had been barking, and then it occurred to question what was stirring them up
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: bonjour, bonjour ... nice to see so many people here!
    Xeno Octavia: A DOG STIRRING MACHINE??
    Paradise Tennant: nice to see you again mitzi :)
    Xeno Octavia: sorry caplok : )
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe someone was doing something the dogs found suspicious
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: You too, Paradise ... I slowly get to know people, it's organic
    Caro Oceanlane: or a squirrel ran across the yard ;-)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles or maybe they are just bored.. and want to stir things up .. mine does it all the time ! .. well this is dull think I will make some noise :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: the sense of dogs .... more acute in smell and hearing than ours ... they extend our senses for us ..
    Paradise Tennant: hmm was listening to a show on elephants apparently they are chattering all the time just too low for us to hear mostly :)
    Paradise Tennant: wonders at how much conversation we miss with our very little ears :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Elephant-net
    Calvino Rabeni: Bird-net, dog-net
    Xeno Octavia: i juss red brian greens elephant universe
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: loved that book
    Caro Oceanlane: yes, just because we can't understand them doesn't mean they're not communicating with each other..
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Xeno Octavia: he sting u along
    Calvino Rabeni: that's really true
    Xeno Octavia: string that r
    Paradise Tennant: particular the part about teaching psychics to the dog
    Calvino Rabeni: Humans didn't invent communication, even if they did "write the book" on it
    Caro Oceanlane: hey, rivka!
    Xeno Octavia: hi Rivka
    Paradise Tennant: hiya rivka :)
    Rivka Melnik: Hi
    Xeno Octavia: u getting footrs wet
    Rivka Melnik: hope I'm not coming at a bad time
    Xeno Octavia: not yet we do 90 sec silence evey 15 mins
    Calvino Rabeni: Not at all Rivka, it's a fine time
    Caro Oceanlane: and English didn't come first, either.. speaking of communicating
    Rivka Melnik: any direction for the silence?
    Xeno Octavia: inward
    Paradise Tennant: hmm smiles how silence speaks ?
    Calvino Rabeni: well, basically, stop doing, and just see what you notice is happening
    Rivka Melnik: that sounds lovely
    Calvino Rabeni: it can be relaxing :)
    Calvino Rabeni: the world is full of important things too - that maybe don't get enough attention when one is busy with something or another
    Caro Oceanlane: nice to sit still on a sunday evening..
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I feel my attention goes *FORWARD* so much, in a literal physical sense. When I actually honor the bell and pull my energy backwards into myself ... it changes my perceptipon ... but often I don't feel to honor the bell...
    Paradise Tennant: nods and smiles at mitzi ..
    Paradise Tennant: takes a lot of effort sometimes I find :)

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I just wanted to say, tonight I would like to really move inwards at those times.
    Calvino Rabeni: and yet, paradoxically, it can end up being much easier ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I noticed that feeling of "forward" you mentioned, Mitzi
    Paradise Tennant: smiles I enjoyed that kind of like a slow exhalation .. but sadly I have an early morint tomorrow so I will bid you all good nite ..thanks kiindly for the conversation :)
    Paradise Tennant: namaste :)
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: namaste, Paradise
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: see ya, paradise
    Caro Oceanlane: night!
    Xeno Octavia: nite para
    Rivka Melnik: night
    Caro Oceanlane: consciously relaxing
    Calvino Rabeni: mm same here, it feels good
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Thanks for the reminder. I have some chronic tendency to tension within me ... every reminder is welcome.
    Calvino Rabeni: prety common, Mitzi - I'd guess nearly universal
    Rivka Melnik: sometimes my own mind is not relaxing and I need to be distracted from it
    Calvino Rabeni: often that chronic tension is a like a "pushing forward" feeling
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ah yes! indeed it is.
    Xeno Octavia: those ur doggies in bakgroun??
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: tense doggies?
    Calvino Rabeni: the dogs next door are quiet now
    Xeno Octavia: no juss 2 or 3
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ha ha! I disown them if so
    Caro Oceanlane: i like the owls in the background here.. set it to midnight.. really nice
    Rivka Melnik: I like the sound of the fountain
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: oh, OK, I just did that ... changes the feeling here.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well I'd just like to say that everything I know is wrong. There I said it and now I feel better.
    Xeno Octavia: is that wrong too??
    Rivka Melnik: that sounds like it was hard for you to say Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, Mitzi must have let go of some expectation, in order to say that
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: HA HA! yes, Xeno that is possible. One of those logical puzzles - if a liar says they are lying ... etc.! No , not hard to say really. But only because I'm perhaps being a little superficial with it.
    Calvino Rabeni: ... maybe let go of one of those expectations that go along with the chronic tensions...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Truthfully, I just wanted to start a topic going, and that's one I enjoy. So, actually it's acomfort zone ...
    Calvino Rabeni: "You Must Always Be Right"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: A way to protect one's ego ... yes ...
    Xeno Octavia: being always wrong easier traditional for fems

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... on the other hand, you can develop layers of subtler ways to protect the ego as well
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, that's a comfort zone as well (being wrong) ... a way to avoid taking responsibility for what you DO know. (or feel).
    Xeno Octavia: why protect ego shudnt u destroy it --before it destroys u
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: indeed
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: This is a safe place to be more vulnerable ... to experiment
    Caro Oceanlane: ego serves a bit of a purpose, doesn't it?
    Rivka Melnik: maybe we should start off with what we DO know
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes Caro? can you say more?
    Xeno Octavia: eggo still has shell : )
    Caro Oceanlane: well, it preserves the individual maybe? thinking out loud here
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: a feeling of brittleness or fragility ... does one wish to break open that "eggo" or keep it intact?
    Calvino Rabeni: What if ... there's no such thing as "ego" - maybe it was just a story someone made up,and we assumed it to be true, but... actually there isn't such a thing as "ego" ?
    Caro Oceanlane: mmm safe inside :-)
    Xeno Octavia: depends if want to eat it or not
    Calvino Rabeni: I remember a book title - "crack in the cosmic egg"
    Xeno Octavia: did u read the book
    Caro Oceanlane: i'd like to read that
    Rivka Melnik: an ego allows us to have a sense of self...without it we don't know who we are
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well, what do we mean when we use the word. probably somewhat to very different for each of us inside
    Calvino Rabeni: But if it were an egg - I'd think - it would be good to eat it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: very nutritious - a little whole unto itself
    Xeno Octavia: eat egg kill its progeny
    Calvino Rabeni: In fact, there's also a book about eating that :)
    Xeno Octavia: hi Ewan
    Caro Oceanlane: hi, ewan!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: welcome ewan
    Xeno Octavia: kool Ewan now Calv has help with all these womens
    Ewan Bonham: Hi folks
    Calvino Rabeni: hehe Xeno
    Calvino Rabeni: H Ewan
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino seems pretty comfortable anyway with such responsibilties ...
    Calvino Rabeni: We were talking about ... eggs I think, Ewan
    Xeno Octavia: yes i didnt ask if being a monk-ish mite have probs with us
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe the ego could be a meal - like an egg - once opened
    Caro Oceanlane: yes, eggs in the form of egos :-)
    Ewan Bonham: which comes first, the chicken or the eggs?
    Calvino Rabeni: in fact perhaps a nutritious meal
    Caro Oceanlane: good protein
    Xeno Octavia: i likes em hatched better
    Calvino Rabeni: I think the book was "Eating the I"
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Eating-Way-Transformation-Ordinary-Expanded/dp/187951477X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1278298351
    Caro Oceanlane: we could scramble our ego... or cutting up the ego and sharing it with others...
    Rivka Melnik: if your in a good mood it could be sunny side up
    Calvino Rabeni: :) Caro, it feels we do that a lot !
    Xeno Octavia: how bout scramblin da ego
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: "which came first .. the chicken or the eggs" -that's an example of the ridiculous way the mind can get ...
    Ewan Bonham: Which comes first, the ego or the perception of reality?
    Calvino Rabeni: Ego, Ewan, I guess
    Xeno Octavia: whats reality Ew
    Ewan Bonham: ???
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: observing babies ... I would say the opposite ... but the ego comes along quite robustly and co-evolves ...
    Xeno Octavia: so whats an ego then
    Caro Oceanlane: babies not aware of ego
    Calvino Rabeni: They come in different forms... some people seems "sunny side up"
    Caro Oceanlane: some need hot sauce lol
    Xeno Octavia: baby not long since it were an egg or 1/2 were
    Xeno Octavia: lol didnt kno were printed
    Caro Oceanlane: mmm what a fast hour that was..
    Rivka Melnik: yes
    Xeno Octavia: no kiddn
    Xeno Octavia: good thing these r 4 hr meets
    Calvino Rabeni: true, so far we haven't "run out" of sessions
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: my how time flies when you are having fun ... as they say ...
    Rivka Melnik: It has been a pleasure...but I must run...para is fading...but I'd like to come back
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... kind of like Czsenthmihaly's "flow" concept ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Glad you came Rivka
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: see ya
    Xeno Octavia: kool Riv --4x/d
    Caro Oceanlane: take care, see you soon!
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
    Xeno Octavia: please mitz watch yer language
    Rivka Melnik: I will try to make the book discussion on
    Rivka Melnik: thrus..but may not be possible
    Xeno Octavia: is oks --so may see ya then
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: .... ha ha zeno ... isn't this a "mature" zone? I think I left out a few conconants
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: coconuts
    Xeno Octavia: try propronant
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: consonants
    Calvino Rabeni: Have you ever noticed, it seems like there's a big difference between "inside" and "outside" - could that be the "ego thing" everyone is talking about ?
    Xeno Octavia: ??
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: the boundary betwenn inside and outside you mean?
    Calvino Rabeni: I guess so, yes
    Xeno Octavia: is that like the / between para and av
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: what do you mean without the "I guess so" qualifier?
    Calvino Rabeni: For example - thinking "inside" is different than thinking "outside"
    Xeno Octavia: again ??
    Caro Oceanlane: mm ego on inside, projected to outside?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I don't know what "thinking outside " would be ...
    Xeno Octavia: outside the box??
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I do think differently when I am outdoors ...! :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It would be - all the thoughts that seem appropriate to what is happening "outside", along with their concerns and rules, and so on
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... so what would be inside thinking as a contrast ... like, thinking about your dreams?
    Calvino Rabeni: Contrasted with "inside" or private thoughts, and all that seems appropriate there
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, an example?
    Caro Oceanlane: inner reflection?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, please?
    Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, relax and ask youself a question - "What is it I am holding close, close to the heart" ? And let that develop in imagination
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: TO me, it feels that all thoughts are private and inside thoughts ...

    Caro Oceanlane: these are the fastest 15 minutes!
    Calvino Rabeni: ... once that develops, consider what it would be like to speak of it "out there" - express it in public, etc. - and would you be comfortable or willing to do it - or change those thoughts for presentation "outside" ?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Wow, Calvino, that is so beautiful ... thank you, it has softened me up ...
    Calvino Rabeni: YW Mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I might feel comfortable if the situatioin really called it out ... but not so much to just impose it arbitrarily upon people without the situation being just right to elicit that (tender) expression
    Xeno Octavia: ?? mitz
    Caro Oceanlane: i think the process of sorting out how we feel inside to be able to express it on the outside can be quite the challenge
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes :))
    Xeno Octavia: especially as it gets late : )
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: sure ... it transforms somewhat in the process of putting on the form of words - words as clothings
    Xeno Octavia: go ta Rhi philosophy frens
    Calvino Rabeni: My experrience is, there are some thoughts that can't even arise "outside"
    Calvino Rabeni: which is the reason for taking time to give attention to "inside"
    Caro Oceanlane: thoughts that shouldn't arise outside lol
    Calvino Rabeni: as we were looking at earlier in the session
    Xeno Octavia: ijuss throw min up and out : ))
    Calvino Rabeni: Nice, Xeno - I would like to be able to throw the tender ones more easily :)
    Xeno Octavia: lol i throw em all frends admire and hate it
    Caro Oceanlane: a little censoring can help maintain relationships :-)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: You bring more definition to the nuances of the inner landdscape for me, Calvino, thanks for this
    Xeno Octavia: lol caro u kno me weel and it not too horrible lol
    Caro Oceanlane: yes, thank you all for the lovely thought exchange this evening.. being on east coast of usa, is approaching midnight, and i['m feeling the need for some sleep
    Caro Oceanlane: i hope to join you all again very soon!
    Xeno Octavia: oh poor easterner Caro
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, happy independence day
    Calvino Rabeni: There was going to be fireworks here tonight
    Calvino Rabeni: but it is a cold rainy night :(
    Xeno Octavia: i shud almost be going too folks was fun and hmm was gonna say funny but . . .
    Caro Oceanlane: yes, and to you, too! cold?! that wodl be something! we're approaching 100 degrees all week..
    Calvino Rabeni: More like 50 :)
    Xeno Octavia: yes all happy boom boom day
    Caro Oceanlane: wow!
    Caro Oceanlane: enjoy!
    Calvino Rabeni: Although there are lots of "booms"
    Caro Oceanlane: are these sessions every day, calvin?
    Xeno Octavia: oh poor Calv!
    Calvino Rabeni: Welcome to the Northwest :)
    Xeno Octavia: 4 times Caro
    Calvino Rabeni: Caro, thsi group meets 4 times a day with different people
    Xeno Octavia: 1am 7am 1pm 7pm
    Calvino Rabeni: TY Xeno
    Xeno Octavia: we are the whirld
    Caro Oceanlane: well i'll definitly be checking back in..
    Caro Oceanlane: take care, everyone, so nice to meet you all!
    Xeno Octavia: yay an me too : ))
    Calvino Rabeni: Good to meet you too, Caro
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bye Caro, see you again ...
    Xeno Octavia: g'nite all

    Caro Oceanlane: have a lovely Monday! (I love Monday-s.. the first day of a new week!)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: see ya too, Xeno
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Xeno
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, can we ... choose our mode ?
    Calvino Rabeni: (Mode of conversation / communication / thinking, I mean)
    Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes I imagine it would be fun just to have a big wheel to spin, what would make the choice :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Actually, I was thinking of logging off, installing thenewsest version, and cominb back - you are just a gall of lighyt and that is nice, but disturbing ...
    Calvino Rabeni: "And Now, a Brief Intermission"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ball o light!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: OK, then, shall return in 5-8 mins or so ,.,. See you Stevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi, that's festive, Steve :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: what are "Mode of conversation / communication / thinking"
    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks, a good day all around
    Calvino Rabeni: The question is - knowing we are capable of speaking together in many different ways... then to make it an intentional choice ... is what I was proposing as a possibility
    stevenaia Michinaga: can you give me an example of some of the "ways"
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, let's build the "menu" :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: (1) Book Chat - take an idea out of a book we've been reading and discuss it as an idea
    Calvino Rabeni: (2) What did we learn today / recently - is there an opening in the Cosmic Egg?
    Calvino Rabeni: (3) PaB stand by topics
    Calvino Rabeni: umm, what else could be on that menu?
    Calvino Rabeni: (4) Banter
    Calvino Rabeni: (5) Silent sitting
    Calvino Rabeni: (6) How was Independence Day or one's day in general
    Calvino Rabeni: WB Mitzi
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Mitzi
    stevenaia Michinaga: wb
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: heya dudes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino still can't see you though!
    stevenaia Michinaga: Cal looks like Cal to me
    Calvino Rabeni: You see the other but not me, Mitzi?
    Calvino Rabeni: Have a seat - mind the sparklers though :)

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I *hear* the sparklers! But cannot *see them* - where are they?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, Calvino, I see all the others but you remain a being of pure light :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I;m holding them
    Calvino Rabeni: It might help you for me to relog, Mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, if you like, but I know you have searious duties.
    Calvino Rabeni: About that menu ... sorry (?) to be so "meta" but I'd like to add to it
    Calvino Rabeni: (7) Discuss what can go on the menu
    Calvino Rabeni: BRB :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ash "discuss among yourselves"!!
    stevenaia Michinaga: wb Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I finally see the sparklers, and I finally see Cal as well!! Thanks ... you are more relateable now.
    stevenaia Michinaga: I should be going, a long day past and a long day coming up
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Menu Items - provocation and troublemaking; socializing; cruising; complaining
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Aw Sevenaia, you never stay long, at least the times that I am here.
    Ewan Bonham: By for now...I am going to the meditation group
    Calvino Rabeni: Glad you dropped in Steve :)
    Ewan Bonham: C'ya
    stevenaia Michinaga: another time perhaps
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: good evening all
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Ewan
    Calvino Rabeni: Just you and me, kid :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: We have driven them off again! Actually it's fireworks time, perhaps they are all enjoying the displays ... I can hear them here alhtough it is freezing cold and raining, I can hear them exploding .....y are
    Calvino Rabeni: I was going to go, but it's cold and raining here also
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I never go to the stadium, but sometimes I like to go somewhere to try and see them. But it's hard to find a good place. So usually I don't try too hard
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: There are some extremel y pretty ones on the TV
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So we could develop some menu items ... I thought that was an interesting endeavor

    Calvino Rabeni: Huh - technology - googled for fireworks webcam, found one that was pannable and zoomable - to look right at the spot I was going to go to, were it not raining
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, do you have some choice dishes to add to the menu ? :))
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: it really is amazing, what information you can get these days ... that's cracking the egg is some ways for sure
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, just taking a word and discussing what it means.
    Calvino Rabeni: Good
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Such as "peace" or "will" or other common but abstract words. What do they mean to different people? Do we have agreement on the meaning? (and connotations)
    Calvino Rabeni: that seems like an old standby - kind of comfort food
    Calvino Rabeni: (10) Philosophical "Debate"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, sure, but I find there's almost always a rich field of study there ... surprisingly productive
    Calvino Rabeni: (actually not one of my favorites)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: "debate"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Discussing scientific research, especially recent findings? (e.g. in brain science, psychology) ...
    Calvino Rabeni: (11) "Things I am interested in but don't know how to formulate, much less debate" :)
    Calvino Rabeni: That's a good one too!
    Calvino Rabeni: (12) Ideas that need redeeming, or affirmative action
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well, actually that's a rally good one, because one is most open ... very in the spirit as "play" as in Play as Being
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi all, headed out to see the lights...
    Calvino Rabeni: Good Evening Cinda
    Calvino Rabeni: I was going to do that too, but ... too cold and rainy
    Lucinda Lavender: like your outfit cal
    Lucinda Lavender: yeah
    Calvino Rabeni: but I did find a webcam, to look at it from right here :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Enjoy Cinda,
    Calvino Rabeni: TY Lucinda
    Lucinda Lavender: yours too Mitzi
    Lucinda Lavender: well till later...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: thanks for saying hi
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: wanted to share the sparkler but cannot find it
    Lucinda Lavender: where did she go?
    Lucinda Lavender: cool
    Lucinda Lavender: to know about the quotes
    Calvino Rabeni: Mitzi went to stretch her pixel legs
    Lucinda Lavender: gotto go...
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, enjoy :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: just playing with my sparkler ... didn't mean to run away~!
    Calvino Rabeni: On that web cam, I see hundreds of boats in the lake, and in the center, the big barge that launches the fireworks
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: How nice! Boats! Not so many of them here in the dry mountains. Exotic
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is different, to live in a maritime area
    Calvino Rabeni: I like the industrial dock areas with the ships

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes ... they come and go to far off lands
    Calvino Rabeni: Menu item 13 - (the unlucky one?) - Spiritual topics one is currently contemplating
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, I've brought up topics from my readings .. which rotate pretty frequently!
    Calvino Rabeni: I finished that book I was reading, now into a nice collection of short poems by Rilke
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Rilke is super deep and sensitive
    Calvino Rabeni: Truly - I didn't see it years ago, but now I do
    Calvino Rabeni: lots of subtle resonances in what he writes
    Calvino Rabeni: and I think, a pretty consistent "way"
    Calvino Rabeni: I was interested in whether you cared to discuss that book you mentioned, by Murat Yagan ?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, that's a good one. What did I mention before? (can't quite recall...)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh, yes, now I remember!
    Calvino Rabeni: Nothing really that I recall about its topics
    Calvino Rabeni: although I gathered, his "mode" is important ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: He was talking about using a person you admire, real or iconic, to uplift you.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yessss, that's great :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: And how that actually works. He was validating some of the functions of traditional religion ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: .. that are sometimes looked down on by us more "advanced" spiritual types.
    Calvino Rabeni: I recall - the ability to see the important and true side of ideas, from many sources, is a gift I'd say
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, I think we have that on the menu already...
    Calvino Rabeni: But examples - did he suggest something of interest to you?
    Calvino Rabeni: (Although I'm also fascinated by the "mode" of doing that)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, when feeling spiritually bereft, to call upon a teacher or diety for help ... like prayer ... having Murat validate that made it more possible for me to maybe try that sometime.
    Calvino Rabeni: mmm, the topic of Help, and some more ways we could approach it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... because I would be one of those people who would normally look down upon such things as more superstitious ... or something like that ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I understand
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: oh, yes, indeed, there you go. Very appropriate for the topic of Help.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: funny how these tpics have their own little karma and come around
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, and one thing I think we may be struggling for, is some kind of "conceptual freedom" so we get to talk about it, without taking on all those karmas

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: talk about ... help? ... or just any topic?
    Calvino Rabeni: Any topic, the sky's the limits, or maybe, the depths of the ocean
    Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes combinations are good
    Calvino Rabeni: like to discuss conceptual freedom, it helps to have some conceptual topic to go along with it :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: so, I would typically feel embarassed to call upon a spiritual figure to help me ... like I *should* be able to help myself. Very American attitude, on Indpendence day..
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, we can notice, how much "help" it took from so many people over such a long time, to even be able to have some independence and freedom
    Calvino Rabeni: And even, the strong role of religion in that process
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: so, on Independence Day, I notice some things about being "American"
    Calvino Rabeni: but that doesn't quite get us to the point of being personal... maybe it helps
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: noticing that I am ashamed to ask for spiritual help ... that I notice it opens up my attitude
    Calvino Rabeni: sounds like a good thing?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: that's personal .. subjective ... yes, a good thing.
    Calvino Rabeni: hmmm
    Calvino Rabeni: what helps with the opening? actually it might be something better left unexpressed
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: if it is unexpressed externally might be fine. But, to be expressed "inside" - as you were talking about earlier - would be good.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes :)
    Calvino Rabeni: that's a great distinction !
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: FOr me, it almost takes some kind of external expression to activate the internal expression.
    Calvino Rabeni: I understand
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Sometimes, I find myself saying things I have never consciously thought about, in response to someone's verbal or written questions. It draws it out, and I hear it for the first time as I say it.
    Calvino Rabeni: one thing from traditional religion, that I believe, softens the hardness of that inside/outside boundary (might I call it ego even) is the sense that prayer is a communication between inside and outside, across that hard barrier
    Calvino Rabeni: It works that way for me also
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: you'd have to believe there is someone / something on the other side, responding in some way

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Although I've been blessed with actual experiences of such, I don't hold it as a belief system ...
    Calvino Rabeni: interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: then, can you "credit" those experiences?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: And expressing that right now causes me to look at the contradiction
    Calvino Rabeni: true
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I think I'm just split - one part of me knows / believes in such a conscious responder of some type -- another part does not
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... my typical everyday viewpoint is more of the cynic
    Calvino Rabeni: Looking at people who might be inspiring in some way - it's clear that Rilke, for example, was able to really give assent to his subtle inner impressions of things and trust that they had real value
    Calvino Rabeni: A kind of faith in self? Or perhaps he found some way to find external validation
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: One could call upon Rilke to help with the travel of inner landscape.
    Calvino Rabeni: yes :)
    Calvino Rabeni: As he was mentor to that young poet
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I love that quote about being with the questions as they unfold
    Calvino Rabeni: Even without a personal relationship with a person like Rilke - his poems give expression to the direct experiences he was able to have
    Calvino Rabeni: I like that one too
    Calvino Rabeni: and others, too subtle to be put into words
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, "reading" those takes a certain trust also
    Calvino Rabeni: to assuage the cynic perhaps ?
    Calvino Rabeni: I might have to make an agreement with myself :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: "reading" --- psychic, subtle forms transmitted via potery?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I have had experiences of some kind of "transmission" perhaps via words on a page. Like I really felt touched by the writer, however long ago or far away they lived.
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, even if they are long gone,
    Calvino Rabeni: what does that say to me? hmm
    Calvino Rabeni: That they were able to see and think in a way that I have not been able to do ... perhaps until just now in the reading
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... meanwhile the cynic in me holds that perception at arm's length ... could just be projection, etc. Guarding against being swallowed up by sentimentality
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... perhaps ... or some kind of fuzzy romantic thinking that I fear or disprespect.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that's a concern ... I wonder is there a way to deal with it?
    Calvino Rabeni: One question is, are unexamined beliefs of "that sort" actually worse that others - say, the voice of the "cynic"?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I guess I would use some kind of body awareness focus - on the back and spine - and activate the observer above and behind the eyes - feel clear and then , that container can hold something subtle and changing ... see how it shifts and where it goes.
    Calvino Rabeni: And yet, why would I have accepted the voice of the cynic and not the voice of the fuzzy romantic
    Calvino Rabeni: That sounds like a way to tune into some personal knowledge
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Excellent question. I think that started a long time ago, childhood or teen years ...n

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... it's a good subject for contemplation, since I don't really know how I got onto that track, not so typical for women or for anyone really.
    Calvino Rabeni: true
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... a vague sense of repulsion at conventional emotionalism, and the lack of control over one's life that seemes to entail
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... aha ... that's a clue ... "control" - wanting something MUCH better that what seemed to be commonly offered
    Calvino Rabeni: It is interesting to allow oneself to be inspired by our own parents and ancestors
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that is another thing that has been interfered with by modernity
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, I've been doing research on my ancestry these past 3 years or so
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: THis past week, a 3rd cousin sent me ssome remarkable photos of my great-grandparents on my father's side of whom I knew nothing really. I was so struck by their faces. I saw my brother looking right at me in the eyes of this man, my great-grandfather. A really good photo.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: And the wife, also amazing face, very attractive, young, and strangely ethnic, very mysterious, aroused a lot of subtle undefinable emitons.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... you talk about your inner, subtle landscapes, calvino. That photo touched off some new territories inside for me.

    Calvino Rabeni: And looking with attention, gives it "being"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: returning to Rilke .... he certainly could express himself about that inner world ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... but it sounds to me like you have equivalent richness ... and great expressive skills as well ... perhaps not the expressive style
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: his specific, delicate style
    Calvino Rabeni: I recently heard a story - maybe for the first time - how my grandfather went to Finland for a year to study the linguistics of that language, which is unlike english - in search of human nature - universals about emotions and what lies beneath language
    Calvino Rabeni: And I identify with him quite a bit
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Wow! I am also fascinated by Finnish ... how cool that he actually did that!
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes!
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it was the first research where they took that programme outside our own language family
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I would say, you clearly bear his imprint. Have you talked to him about the specifics of what he learned?
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, alas ...didn't get the chance to do that
    Calvino Rabeni: I heard that story indrectly through my mother
    Calvino Rabeni: her father died in the seventies
    Calvino Rabeni: I did a little googling then .. some traces remain, courtesy of google digitizing old journals
    Calvino Rabeni: BTW the fireworks displays are peaking, here
    Calvino Rabeni: One view from the window, another from the web-cam
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.spaceneedle.com/view/webcam.html
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: There were lots of explosions outside ... a few still occurring ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: *some*body in my neighborhood enjoys fireworks!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I do enjoy looking at them, undeniably enjoyable by almost everyone...
    Calvino Rabeni: I'
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... a niversal, quasi-divine experience. the divine light
    Calvino Rabeni: m a little sad, I did not join that huge crowd, to sit outside in the rain at Ground Zero of where the display is happening
    Calvino Rabeni: (remembers it as a metaphor for a good sexual experience also)

    Calvino Rabeni: I wouldn't have skipped the session here, but was planning to leave at 8:30 or so, with plenty of time to ride a bicycle to the lake by 9:45
    Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking ... about that inside / outside barrier I mentioned earlier
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: uh huh
    Calvino Rabeni: One of the things that holds it in place -
    Calvino Rabeni: and also leads to something I think we spoke about in a previous session
    Calvino Rabeni: which is, the need to pretend not to have knowledge
    Calvino Rabeni: ... why would that be so?
    Calvino Rabeni: .. is one thing I was wondering
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... in order to avoid having to defend it against the inevtiable attacks
    Calvino Rabeni: One idea is - the big gap between intellectual knowledge and compassionate knowledge
    Calvino Rabeni: thus, knowledge is encumbered by a lack of compassion
    Calvino Rabeni: and because of that, becomes somewhat like a dangerous sword
    Calvino Rabeni: easy to cut, even the person holding it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: that kind of "knowledge" might be intellectual only, not integrated with action ... thus sterile
    Calvino Rabeni: So yes, defense is one consideration, but I'm also noticing the opposite
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ah! how were the fireworks - reminiscent of divine light?
    Lucinda Lavender: yes lovely
    Calvino Rabeni: which is fear of unintentional offense
    Calvino Rabeni: WB Lucinda
    Lucinda Lavender: gracias
    Lucinda Lavender: we should be marching...
    Lucinda Lavender: my radio is playing yankee doodle
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, fear of unintentional offense is, I would say, a HUGE factor in the lack of candor in our social life.
    Lucinda Lavender: we went to a nice quiet spot looking off the bluff toward Puget sound
    Calvino Rabeni: Effects on others aside, the effects on oneself must be tremendous also
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: You could see well?
    Lucinda Lavender: not the seattle fireworks just the ones along the beaches
    Calvino Rabeni: I saw the Kirkland one across the lake, and the Union and Elliot one on web-cam
    Calvino Rabeni: (not too exciting, that web cam view)
    Lucinda Lavender: ah:)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, there's a huge emotional overhead dealing with how to handle others' reactions. Our skills are not developed and we have very low confidence.
    Calvino Rabeni: But you can zoom and pan the camera at the Needle
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Lucinda Lavender: ah cool
    Calvino Rabeni: But also, just between oneself (if that makes sense) it can be a burden to see something with the "cold" eye of knowledge, if it doesn't have a compassionate backing

    Lucinda Lavender: glory glory halleluja...
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: um... teacher hit me with a rula ?
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: not this teacher...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: What you are talking about is what a Gurdjieffian might call "one-centered" action
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I see what you mean
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't know how to fit this in to our theme yet, but I'm thinking of the epic myth of Gilgamesh and the role that "wildness" plays in what makes us fully human
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Aha! a new topic at this late hour. I think the fireworks have sparked off this wildness in your
    Calvino Rabeni: Dreams often express wildness and its struggle with socialization
    Calvino Rabeni: Another angle is the modern prevalence of mechanical ways of thinking and behaving
    Calvino Rabeni: which should also make sense in a 4th-way framework
    Calvino Rabeni: Wow, it is still "boom boom boom" outside
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... the releasing of energy ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: .... and she's off!
    Lucinda Lavender: video killed the radio star
    Lucinda Lavender: dream did you say?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, showing images from inside and outside the boundary of the "self" and maybe dramatizing the relationshop
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I just noticed that there is a boundary between the dreaming self and the "inside" self ... similar to the boundary we were discussing between "inside" thinking and "outside thinking
    Calvino Rabeni: How does that appear, what did you notice?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... well I was thinking about dreams and the boundary ... then that thought just occured to me
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... but the "inside" and "outside" types of internal experience seeme more connected to each other than either one is to dreaming. Dreaming seems more "other"
    Calvino Rabeni: When things appear on the "inside" but may seem foreign or disturbing, they could be coming across that other boundary

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... whether via dreams, or possibley other routes
    Lucinda Lavender: thinking about that...
    Lucinda Lavender: much of what I see in dreams is other
    Lucinda Lavender: new combinations of things, places, etc
    Calvino Rabeni: A question worth asking, but maybe, ultimately misleading, is when things appear in dreams, do they come from self (maybe another part of oneself) or from some "outside" or other source
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: that is really a question about how does one define what is self versus what is other or outside?e
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: THat isd, it's all about "labelling" - because since you have experienced it in a dream, it is part of you (in that you experienced it)
    Calvino Rabeni: If it'
    Calvino Rabeni: s true that our consciousness is the "screen" for everything that appears to us, then what is *able* to appear of the world, would have a lot to do with the quality of that "screen"
    Lucinda Lavender: What if the personal story we tell in the dream is actually the best we can do to express a universal truth
    Calvino Rabeni: whether it's about verbal modes of thought, or any other ways of knowing
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes Lucinda
    Lucinda Lavender: some aspect of what is appearing
    Calvino Rabeni: that's probably true !
    Calvino Rabeni: A relevant quote - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/anaisnin107089.html
    Lucinda Lavender: that is what I learned from connie Kaplan
    Calvino Rabeni: We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. Anais Nin
    Lucinda Lavender: the other day I was riding on a flying beach ball in the dream
    Calvino Rabeni: sounds like a good energy
    Lucinda Lavender: pretty exciting
    Lucinda Lavender: have not flown in a dream for years
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I like the phrase "the best we can do" ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, we did see "Kiki's Delivery Service" which had flying, plus a huge dirigible in it
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: true Cal!
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe those images got into your dream :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: aha!
    Lucinda Lavender: yes!
    Lucinda Lavender: I want a broom for here now
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I like your Anais Nin quote, Calvino.
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, there are some - I forget who in PaB has one.
    Lucinda Lavender: someday it may appear for me
    Calvino Rabeni: The quote says something about sensitivity, and about crediting the value of it for understanding the world
    Lucinda Lavender: nice idea
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it implies cultivation, not just the supposed limitations of subjectivity
    Lucinda Lavender: I guess I need a snack now...ideas, fireworks, sparklers use energy for me.

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It embraces the thought that we are inherently subjective - thus contracting another thought we may be holding that we "should" be totally objective!
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght
    Calvino Rabeni: That is one of the encumbrances of the "S Word"
    Lucinda Lavender: may there be dreams...
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, and yours too, Lucinda
    Calvino Rabeni: So we "play" with the possibility of having many different perspectives and "ways of knowing"... but sometimes it has difficult consequences, and is "work"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh yes, a "Play" "Work" dichotomy - very classic and interesting as well
    Calvino Rabeni: Because to the degree we are lucid about it - and are "at choice" or can use will to decide - it seems to open up new territories of the pyche - to build something that wasn't there before
    Calvino Rabeni: that is, we are evolving, not fixed forms
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: The idea implicit in the name "Play as Being" seems to be that a loose, fun, creative approach may be more productive than a serious heavy approach in elucidating the nature of reality
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, part of the idea is to drop those encumbrances
    Calvino Rabeni: but I guess I feel, it brings new struggles inherently
    Calvino Rabeni: One person said (I forget who) the purpose of life is to be defeated by things greater and greater (or some similar idea)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So even though it's "work" (defined as ... takes effort? or focus? or might feel uncofortable sometimes?) it is appealing and fun even ... else nobody would do it as much as they do for free and volutarily to boot
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes that makes sense :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well even defining as "defeated" implies a probably unhealthy focus on "conquering" rather than exploring, or playing with ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm just thinking how much people will embrace discomfort along the path to becoming more energetic, or free, or having some kind of enhancing experience
    Calvino Rabeni: You could say that - the quote is trying to redeem "defeat" as something positive - like the religious idea of "submission" as a path to becoming greater
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, if you are pursuing sometihng worthwhile, it feels good to push through obstacles
    Calvino Rabeni: surely - it feels built-in to our human or animal nature
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, but I'm saying that defining something to be achieved or conquered, reather than as something to be explored, sets one up for disappointment.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So I studiously avoid that! Because I hate being disappointed.
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree, Mitzi, but there is also the other side of that same dynamic
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes?
    Calvino Rabeni: which is to proceed such that there is a guarantee of not-being-defeated, is to hold back from using one's full power
    Calvino Rabeni: Like Rumi often wrote - love is reckless - it gambles away all the gifts that god gave
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hmm, you do make an impactful point. I will have to allow myself to be impacted by what you say and thus have no comeback.
    Calvino Rabeni: Awww, no comeback - I'd be disappointed :))

    The following remark results from the fact that Zandaan teleported right in on top of Mitzi:

    Calvino Rabeni: :) Don't Bite :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Hokin, Zal
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd recommend moving, Mitzi :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi you two, I am just leaving now ... hope we'll meet again?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Good evening all!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bye Cal, thanks for your excellent stewardship here
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Mitzi - have a great week :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I need to leave also - good evening, Zal
    Zaldaan Sirnah: take it easy

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