2010.07.08 01:00 - Pain, Death and Christianity

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.Present were Calvino Rabeni, Moon Fargis, Qt Core, Stargate Tone.

    Explaining why I haven't been feeling too well lately:

    Zen Arado: Hi Star, Hi Moon :)
    Stargate Tone: Hello Zen *
    Moon Fargis: morning zen :)
    Zen Arado: how are you?
    Moon Fargis: im ok :)
    Moon Fargis: and you ?
    Zen Arado: ah not very goos atm
    Zen Arado: I have an ulcer that is painful
    Zen Arado: I had it 3 years ago and it just came back
    Moon Fargis: oh not good
    Zen Arado: I went to doctor yesterday and he gave me antibiotics
    Stargate Tone: oh...
    Zen Arado: so it will heal again soon I hope
    Zen Arado: beautifu gown Star
    Stargate Tone: thank you
    Moon Fargis: seems your Ao is interfernting
    Stargate Tone: still trying to learn the AO
    Moon Fargis: star
    Zen Arado: beautiful colour
    Moon Fargis: interfering
    Moon Fargis: i mean
    Stargate Tone: my verrry favorite
    Zen Arado: ao's are a nuisance sometimes
    Zen Arado: I have to keep switchig mine off
    Stargate Tone: and it's whole new thing to me to try to use
    Stargate Tone: **
    Zen Arado: we don't appreciate our health enough
    Stargate Tone: hm
    Stargate Tone: maybe we do, but are not so capabul to work for it...

    Appreciating ourselves and others :

    Moon Fargis: well its human to start to appreciat the tings we had, when they are gone
    Zen Arado: yes
    Stargate Tone: cannot help thinking this morning...my x-'s visit...as he now appreciated me...
    Stargate Tone: very highly even
    Zen Arado: yes that's another thing - you only miss people when they are gone
    Zen Arado: we should try being thankful each day for all the things that are going right
    Stargate Tone: well; that's kept me up as much I've been and am up *
    Zen Arado: nice shrubs Moon
    Zen Arado: and trees
    Moon Fargis: thx .)
    Zen Arado: are you busy in SL?
    Moon Fargis: ah no no busy set so far
    Zen Arado: I haven't ben in SL so much lately
    Zen Arado: sometimes I get tired of it
    Stargate Tone: but if you mean busy generally, we've been very busy in both; RL and SL
    Stargate Tone: much work waiting for
    Zen Arado: ah ok
    Stargate Tone: but we have also learned more to say *yes* to our own needs also
    Stargate Tone: of which part sure is to help people
    Zen Arado: yes - you need to
    Stargate Tone: ah yes; at least Moon and I are such children of the Universe, that this special year of huge changes have come true in both of our life
    Zen Arado: yes?
    Stargate Tone: as it's the year of the Tiger based on chinese knowledge
    Moon Fargis: sigh yes: )
    Zen Arado: what does that mean for you?
    Stargate Tone: have ment huge changes
    Stargate Tone: ah; not so much in our self, but sure one 'changes' somewhat each day depending on how strong phenomenas have been to go through, but that's more in motions and feelings; not the change in our own self
    Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
    Stargate Tone: Hello Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello everyone :)
    Moon Fargis: morning cal :)
    Stargate Tone: but in which we are involved and what's happened to our body and such
    Zen Arado: I have this pain from a duodenal ulcer atm and it makes me lose interest in things
    Zen Arado: Hi Qt :)
    Stargate Tone: understand that more than well
    Stargate Tone: Hi Qt
    Moon Fargis: morning qt
    Qt Core: Hi all

    Dealing with your own and the pain of others:

    Stargate Tone: few days back I took part with my friends to this annual medvedeval days we have had here in Turku more than 10 years now
    Zen Arado: how are you QT?
    Zen Arado: yes Star?
    Stargate Tone: it's huge event which is big part of huge many people as they work for it as volounteered around the year
    Qt Core: quite good, waiting to go to a nearby park for a picnic ;-)
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Stargate Tone: ok
    Zen Arado: ah ok Qt - I usually only see you when you are sick and off work :)
    Qt Core: ;-)
    Zen Arado: we have events like that too Star
    Zen Arado: I live beside a medieval castle
    Stargate Tone: as I've 'holded' this MS illness for one peron since we met few weeks ago, and it's kept me in huge pains in legs unnormally much
    Stargate Tone: ahh
    Stargate Tone: so; cuz I couldn't much walk with them, we sat much on the blanket
    Stargate Tone: but that uncapabilty to enjoy with them more of the event and feeling a bit that I am the obstacle to them, even they also wanted to rest there too and missed my company too
    Zen Arado: it's bad enough havin gyour own pain I think :)
    Stargate Tone: I felt suddenly huge anger even and even asked the permission to say a verrry bad word
    Stargate Tone: ah well; most of my pains have come and comes from them patients
    Stargate Tone: ah yes; needed to ask permission that they wouldnt' get a shock cuz they are like my family and never heared me to say one
    Qt Core: asking for permission to say bad words take of at least half of their liberatory power ;-)
    Stargate Tone: and sure the permisson was granteed *
    Zen Arado: :)
    Stargate Tone: they almost cried with me, but sharing helped that even I didnt' cry
    Stargate Tone: but now there's burning tears in my eyes thinking how wonderfull friends I have
    Stargate Tone: ...was so alone with my awareness so long time; just late years have brought ppl 'to me' who can understand even me
    Zen Arado: yes Star
    Stargate Tone: meaning also that I'm troubled and why
    Zen Arado: pain makes you feel alone I find
    Zen Arado: no one else seems to understand
    Calvino Rabeni: It depends on who you know, I believe
    Stargate Tone: hm...well...to me it's been opposite, but lonelyness what comes that understanding of 'my world'
    Zen Arado: yes if you can feel compassion fro others
    Zen Arado: but my own pain makes me feel isolated
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Zen Arado: and you feel you shouldn't complain
    Stargate Tone: ah yes; 'to be sooo outsider' ...as it's also the fact when there's limits to normal moving
    Stargate Tone: ah yes; and that's something one should learn to do
    Stargate Tone: that it's neither declined, but even needed
    Zen Arado: you shouldn't keep things secret I guess
    Stargate Tone: that's working with the prob
    Stargate Tone: ah well...from some people, but to be open to some other
    Stargate Tone: but my life had yes teached me already in them first of my years, that it's better to lick my wounds alone by myself; like the cat
    Stargate Tone: that 'nobody' likes to have troubled person near by....
    Zen Arado: yes Star - when you find others are uncompassionate
    Stargate Tone: but specially Moon teached me completely opposite
    Zen Arado: exactly

    The importance of friends to help in bad times :

    Stargate Tone: and he even advised me to be open with my probs too to these persons I also was in that event
    Stargate Tone: and they so gladly helped me
    Moon Fargis: sometimes its help for others to be helped :)
    Moon Fargis: or hmm well better sayd "it helps to give help"
    Stargate Tone: that yes helps
    Zen Arado: yes helping others also helps you to feel good
    Calvino Rabeni: A man I know, a few days ago found he has lymphoma of the brain, will soon die. He cannot move on half the body. But decided not to have the medicine for it
    Stargate Tone: but when we ask help, we give that help to them who helpes us :)***
    Calvino Rabeni: and he has the good kind of friends
    Calvino Rabeni: a group of them went to the hospital to see him
    Calvino Rabeni: even one man, who was only showing up there "by acident"
    Calvino Rabeni: and when there, they sang a song at that place
    Calvino Rabeni: then took him home
    Calvino Rabeni: but he asked, to be taken to their meeting next saturday
    Calvino Rabeni: to say goodbye :)
    Calvino Rabeni: it is a great trouble, to go to an island, take him in a wheelchair and boat, to that meeting
    Zen Arado: _/\_
    Calvino Rabeni: but it is his request, and everyone wants to see him - for the last itime probably
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Calvino Rabeni: and all admire him, that he has great courage and difficulty even to get to that meeting
    Calvino Rabeni: so the other people feel that courage too, feel some gratitude
    Stargate Tone: /\}
    Calvino Rabeni: I only heard about it tonight
    Calvino Rabeni: but he will be there saturday
    Calvino Rabeni: he is lucky to have those friends
    Zen Arado: yes he is

    The topic of death:

    Calvino Rabeni: and in the meeting, we were able to talk about death
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Calvino Rabeni: in a way that was good
    Zen Arado: not many want to talk about that !
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, an important topic surely, in the right circumstances
    Moon Fargis: yes the only truth in life is being forgotten mostly
    Stargate Tone: when I had got the message of my mom's death, it was Sun morning...there was even such person present in PaB meeting, who teaches of death in his RL
    Stargate Tone: as I sure asked if somebody present dont want the topic to be death
    Stargate Tone: I still am convinced, that those persons was 'sent by the upstairs office'
    Stargate Tone: even death has been 'clear' to me since my almost so early childhood I can remember
    Stargate Tone: but as I remember the flas from my two weeks ages; in that I didn't 'know' death yet
    Zen Arado: I will almost be happy to die
    Stargate Tone: yet not yet...
    Zen Arado: so long I don't have too much pain
    Zen Arado: but the quality of my life is gradually deteriorating
    Moon Fargis: well thats the problem with pain
    Moon Fargis: once you drop yourself into it and wishing to be death , he will get rid much harder
    Moon Fargis: cus you kinda gave up and your body notices
    Zen Arado: yes - we shuldn't wish or not wish for death
    Zen Arado: but they have such horrible wasy fo keeping you alive these days
    Zen Arado: when you are just a vegetable
    Stargate Tone: "So awasome is human life, that many people chooce to win huge probs to wake back to one's day, and experiences the miracle of life"
    Stargate Tone: (the end of one of my published articles)
    Moon Fargis: :)
    Qt Core: time to go, it seem a little inhappropriate(or it is the most appropriate ?) but... have fun, bye all
    Zen Arado: bye Qt
    Calvino Rabeni: hehe
    Moon Fargis: see you qt
    Zen Arado: :)
    Stargate Tone: U 2Qt; enjoyyyyyyyy ***
    Moon Fargis: he went from us
    Stargate Tone: not completely :)***
    Zen Arado: sorry if I am depressing you all
    Moon Fargis: lol
    Stargate Tone: and who knows how much 'of' the wonderfull nature there he'll 'send' us :)**
    Calvino Rabeni: Not at all :)
    Stargate Tone: ah dont worry such _Zen *
    Moon Fargis: yes.)
    Stargate Tone: I am happy that you also have still woken up to the human world *
    Moon Fargis: well star sayd i say too less bad words
    Moon Fargis: so i decided when ill die i shall be burryd the way that my hand ranks out of the grave, and then , by mechanics, as soon someone walks by , it rises the middle finger and my voice is to be heard "fuck you"
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Zen Arado: :)

    Sl burial arrangements?

    Calvino Rabeni: I'm wondering if SL has any cemetaries and / or funerals
    Stargate Tone: has
    Stargate Tone: even such that one may bury one's self
    Calvino Rabeni: And moon, do not go gentle into that good night - rage
    Stargate Tone: and there's a text above the Av's name;
    Stargate Tone: "Why U greaf; you still live"
    Moon Fargis: lol yes:)
    Zen Arado: you could have a coffin
    Zen Arado: in SL I mean
    Stargate Tone: one's my very close friend teached me that going to such grave; on Easter....
    Stargate Tone: that too
    Zen Arado: fi you die in RL your AV dies too ;)
    Stargate Tone: sadly it's not allowed to give one's password that others could bury her/him
    Stargate Tone: maybe somebody would need to suggest that option to LL
    Stargate Tone: hm
    Moon Fargis: well you can always share your password to a trusted person
    Zen Arado: how could they stop you?
    Stargate Tone: would like to share why my this friend did so...shocked me as he knew that I see him on map and shall seek him
    Stargate Tone: may I ?
    Zen Arado: sure Star
    Moon Fargis: ok
    Stargate Tone: well; as he's also one of them greatest helpers I know...but specially Easter times he was very depressed


    Stargate Tone: I few times had felt need to talk with him how I saw things to be with him, but when I tried to ask if we could speak a bit about Jesus Christ, he always asked that 'later pls'
    Zen Arado: I would say that too Star :)
    Stargate Tone: but when he returned up from that grave where he was the whole Easter, I demanded to be allowed to say only few words
    Stargate Tone: then he just and just gave his permission
    Stargate Tone: so I told this;
    Stargate Tone: "You so much take yourself to be the outsider to Jesus, even 'he' Lives in your own spirit; so pls stop and see the truth*
    Stargate Tone: years have gone by , and since that he's not had such depression
    Stargate Tone: and I claim that only the genuin and pure truth is the only thing to made that to be possible
    Zen Arado: nice story
    Zen Arado: Christianity can be comforting to people
    Stargate Tone: well; he in fact is not religious...
    Stargate Tone: Jesus is known in many cultures, and only one I know that dont take him to be the 'symbol of love', cuz that culture declines him ever even lived
    Zen Arado: he was a great spiritual teacher
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Zen Arado: I think he had some contact with teachers from the East
    Stargate Tone: where he also was buried *
    Zen Arado: because his teachings were so revolutionary
    Stargate Tone: and there's already known by 'few' people, that there is the verrry beautiful girl born, who's ment to be the first female Dalai Lama; her 'keeper' knows this also, and her mission is ment to add 'more Jesus' to buddhism
    Stargate Tone: as she's the child in spirit of Jesus
    Stargate Tone: oh huge what courrage star seems to have today speaking this kind of things in PaB
    Stargate Tone: well; on the top I can be killed
    Zen Arado: why?
    Stargate Tone: ahh...
    Zen Arado: you are entitled to your beliefs
    Stargate Tone: dont you know why I'm not accepted ????
    Zen Arado: lots of different spiritual traditions are represented in pab
    Stargate Tone: I refuse to accept that to be said as the belief, cuz so normal and also highly educated and honoured ppl in societies do know the same
    Stargate Tone: and even Dalai Lama has given two such announcements in publick, which other I heared myself in life TV broadcasting, that supports this knowledge
    Stargate Tone: but...we can drop the case for sure

    The need for a variety of spiritual traditions rather than declaring which is the 'correct' one:

    Zen Arado: the Dalai Lama says you need all the different spiritual traditions
    Zen Arado: because there are different temperaments and cultures
    Zen Arado: he doesn't say everyon e should become Buddhist
    Stargate Tone: well; he was asked that why all Dalai Lama's have been male; he in a way avoided to answer that question, but instead said this;
    Stargate Tone: "He can sure be also a woman, and I promise to you, that when she comes, she is a verrry beautiful lady"
    Moon Fargis: :)
    Zen Arado: yes - there are many women in Zen who are great teachers
    Stargate Tone: the other of his announcements I've heared from ppl who have met him in person, that he's said this;
    Stargate Tone: "I am the last of my kind"
    Zen Arado: ys they are doing away with the old system of electing a Lama I think
    Zen Arado: or finding one I should say
    Stargate Tone: about that I have no knowledge; 'only' wondered knowing that this girl lives in USA; not in Asia yet
    Zen Arado: it was old cultural traditions that always wanted men to teach
    Calvino Rabeni: The Dalai Lama knows that traditions are alive and must evolve
    Zen Arado: but the world is changing
    Calvino Rabeni: and if he believed in god, I think, would even say god evolves also
    Moon Fargis: yes we live the greatest time again of human life , theb eginning of a radical change in soceity and technics
    Calvino Rabeni: It is only in the fantasy of people, that traditions are fixed and unchanging
    Zen Arado: takes a long time for societies to change though I think
    Stargate Tone: well; as I know that DL can mind-, soul-and spirit traveling, I cannot take him to believe in god....but yes; to 'something like that'
    Zen Arado: people have fixed views
    Calvino Rabeni: Actually, they don't
    Calvino Rabeni: but they *wish* to
    Zen Arado: :)
    Stargate Tone: ah yes; there's so much fears to 'lost god'...even for to me it was lost only for few ten years, and then 'finding' that I found much more...and specially much more Love
    Stargate Tone: but there I'm speaking of the 'god' told in the bible

    Christian traditions and forms:

    Stargate Tone: as I was born to Christianity and learned to read by the bible when I was 4 years 'old'
    Stargate Tone: as my parents didnt' much talk of it , as my pa was 'devorsed' from the church, cuz the preast in the war had sent men to fight saying that god is with them...and my pa thought that
    Stargate Tone: 'he' is with the enemy too
    Zen Arado: I was an evangelical Christian fro 20 years
    Zen Arado: but I find Buddhism suits me better
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Moon Fargis: *smiles
    Zen Arado: old forms of Christianity are good
    Zen Arado: but I don't like modern forms so much
    Stargate Tone: hm
    Stargate Tone: would U share the difference ?
    Zen Arado: use to be contemplation (like meditation) in Christianity
    Zen Arado: nowadays it is more 'happy clappy'
    Stargate Tone: oh...
    Moon Fargis: happy clappy
    Moon Fargis: hehe
    Zen Arado: if you know what that means?
    Moon Fargis: like the sining sisters ?
    Zen Arado: don't know them Moon
    Moon Fargis: ah a movie with woopie goldberg
    Stargate Tone: I'm not sure,,,but,,,you mean such events that ppl are manipulated to 'hurmos'....it's the phase that one is not clearly present ?
    Zen Arado: 'amnipulated' is right
    Moon Fargis: i think the english name is sister act
    Zen Arado: manipulated
    Stargate Tone: and they make huge noise and 'speak with languages' ...
    Zen Arado: yes with 'tongues'
    Stargate Tone: yes
    Stargate Tone: ah well; that's one 'their own' religion....
    Zen Arado: it just doesn't appeal to me
    Zen Arado: but the teachings of Jesus are very good
    Zen Arado: that is the core of Christianity I think
    Stargate Tone: ah yes; know that one can give such energy 'showre' to other person's forehead, that mixes them brain quite completeley
    Zen Arado: I used to be a counsellor at big rallies whare they got a very good speaker
    Zen Arado: a very good orator
    Stargate Tone: **
    Zen Arado: and they have a big choir
    Zen Arado: plays oin people's emotions
    Stargate Tone: *yes*
    Zen Arado: tell them they are going to hell if they don't be 'saved'
    Calvino Rabeni: In the US, the largest growing religion segment are huge rural evangelical churches
    Moon Fargis: halleluja
    Zen Arado: play on fear too
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: they are very successful
    Moon Fargis: when i traved throught the eatcoast i only saw babtist churches
    Stargate Tone: ...know many ppl who does that with 'wise speeche' with not head or tail...that this 'wisdom' is in the belief of the listener that he/she is 'fool' when dont understand such speech
    Moon Fargis: first babtist church here and 3rd babtist church there ..everywhere
    Zen Arado: teenage girls came to me to lead them to slavation and crying their eyes out
    Stargate Tone: **
    Calvino Rabeni: And I have to say, that the viewpoint of outsiders, like traditional denominations, plus secular liberals, is rather incomplete and distorted about what happens in those churches
    Zen Arado: *salvation
    Zen Arado: interesting typo :)
    Stargate Tone: and so much their preastes are told to 'give the salvation' in bed....
    Zen Arado: there is a lot of good there too
    Zen Arado: a community spirit
    Calvino Rabeni: Many of those churches are doing a better job of making christianity into something real and modern
    Moon Fargis: ahyes thats sure required
    Calvino Rabeni: compared to the traditional churches
    Calvino Rabeni: or the secularists
    Zen Arado: yes -you have to adapt the message for changing times
    Zen Arado: but the Bible stays the same
    Zen Arado: and it was written for a far off culture
    Calvino Rabeni: yes but the meaning changes, and the practices of lay ministry change also
    Stargate Tone: ahh; the Christianity in Finnland is based on the newist bibel; only ab 500 years ago written
    Zen Arado: new translations
    Calvino Rabeni: they are figuring out how to bring the christian philosophy of love into the modern culture
    Zen Arado: so long as it is real love
    Stargate Tone: ah; as Martti Luther 'purified' the Christianity ; it's in a way new religion/bible
    Zen Arado: not phoney variety
    Moon Fargis: martin :)
    Zen Arado: and should be practical
    Stargate Tone: and that was translated to Finnish by swedish person Mikael Agricola, but he also made some changes by himself
    Stargate Tone: sorry
    Stargate Tone: as in finnish his known as Martti ***
    Zen Arado: sorry I have to go
    Stargate Tone: sad
    Zen Arado: thanks for nice discussion
    Moon Fargis: ahyes its late
    Moon Fargis: was good to see you again
    Zen Arado: you too
    Stargate Tone: *yes*
    Zen Arado: will have to get to Hikari again
    Stargate Tone: hoping U to get painkillers....
    Calvino Rabeni: Goodbye Zen :)
    Moon Fargis: :)
    Zen Arado: bye
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Moon Fargis: ahyes we talked about 1 and a half hour
    Stargate Tone: **
    Moon Fargis: would be good time to take a pause :)
    Stargate Tone: ah yes...RL calling again
    Moon Fargis: ^^ wish you a good day cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks Moon
    Stargate Tone: *giggles*
    Stargate Tone: wishes Good NIght to Cal :)***
    Calvino Rabeni: :)))
    Moon Fargis: :)
    Stargate Tone: hearts
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night Star, take care :)
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_

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