2010.07.09 19:00 - A good lie will have traveled half way around the world while the truth is putting on her boots.

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Paradise Tennant. The comments are by Xeno, Calvino, Stevenaia, Dream,Zaldaan, Sylectra.

    Xeno Octavia: hi Para i dont see no one running about !!
    Paradise Tennant: hiya xeno how are you tonight :)
    Xeno Octavia: seem so
    Paradise Tennant: hiya steve :)
    Paradise Tennant: I'm filling in for lucinda tonight :)
    Xeno Octavia: hi Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Paradise, Xeno
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must be lagging
    stevenaia Michinaga: is anyone moving?
    Xeno Octavia: nah i live same place
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    stevenaia Michinaga: stop
    Paradise Tennant: nope not moving at all :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: but that music
    Xeno Octavia: oh u mean the sound
    Xeno Octavia: will it stop at 15 mins --or do we meditate on it
    stevenaia Michinaga: If i could spell it I cold stp it I think
    Xeno Octavia: spell what
    Xeno Octavia: ah u mean magic spell
    stevenaia Michinaga: onigokko
    stevenaia Michinaga: stop
    stevenaia Michinaga: wear THAT AND YOU CAN PLAY TOO
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: it;s good excercise here
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Xeno Octavia: i kno i have one --two now : ))
    stevenaia Michinaga: can't have to many
    Xeno Octavia: it still runnin tho
    stevenaia Michinaga: onigokko
    Paradise Tennant: what shall we talk of tonight
    stevenaia Michinaga: stop
    Paradise Tennant: whew I was getting dizzy
    stevenaia Michinaga: oh, I suppose we could settle down
    Xeno Octavia: i wearing two and not moves
    Paradise Tennant: onigokko
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
    --BELL--
    Paradise Tennant: stop
    Xeno Octavia: hi Dream
    Dream Wrexan: hello
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello dream
    Paradise Tennant: hiya dream :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: we were doing a moving meditation...of sorts
    Xeno Octavia: hi Cal
    Paradise Tennant: moving meditations are good :)
    Paradise Tennant: hiya cal
    Dream Wrexan: thanks fr letting me know, stevanaia - I've done several and like them
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello
    Calvino Rabeni: You all look out of breath :)
    Xeno Octavia: and can do every 15 mins for 90 sec
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello cal, we were just settling in
    Dream Wrexan: lol - I can only see Xeno
    stevenaia Michinaga: things are slow here tonight
    Xeno Octavia: lol --i special lol
    Dream Wrexan: ah... now the rest of you are starting to appear
    Xeno Octavia: except sound an d run
    Dream Wrexan: what type of moving meditation were you doing?
    stevenaia Michinaga: it had the name of japanese demon I was told
    Calvino Rabeni: Does anyone know where it came from ? Shinto, maybe?
    Paradise Tennant: kik where what came from cal :)
    Xeno Octavia: or where it goes as sound continues
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, I've been watching an anime series about japanese demons lately
    Calvino Rabeni: I will keep an eye out for one of that variety
    stevenaia Michinaga: if I say it we will all run arounds like silly people, it really isn;t a meditation, I was just trying to make us look serious
    Calvino Rabeni: It
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Dream Wrexan: hehehe
    Paradise Tennant: well what shall we talk of tonight :)
    Calvino Rabeni: is interesting watching that program because it stirs some memories I had forgotten about the names of those demons
    Xeno Octavia: ah a medita demo0n
    Paradise Tennant: ahh demons then :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I heard them from my martial arts teacher when I was young
    Dream Wrexan: is that anything like a hungry ghost?
    Calvino Rabeni: and the forgot about them for many years until recently
    Xeno Octavia: nah but close
    Calvino Rabeni: no, actually a lot of them are nature spirits
    Dream Wrexan: sounds like fun
    Dream Wrexan: so long as they're friendly :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: there's one that lives in ponds
    Calvino Rabeni: no they are often not friendly to humans
    Paradise Tennant: smiles wonders how many shapes and varieties there are in human folk lore
    stevenaia Michinaga: wear this
    Xeno Octavia: friendly ghostes --casperian
    Calvino Rabeni: but depending on whether they have been treated well
    Calvino Rabeni: and they basically live by their own codes
    Dream Wrexan: I wonder how one gets on their good side
    Paradise Tennant: was always very found of casper
    Calvino Rabeni: like animals, but more intelligent
    Calvino Rabeni: offerings, kindness, the usual things :)
    Dream Wrexan: me too, paradise
    Dream Wrexan: chocolate
    Calvino Rabeni: the one that lives in the pond is called a kappa
    Xeno Octavia: ah dharma demons , not chrisy ones
    Paradise Tennant: nods .. does it have fins ?
    Calvino Rabeni: more similar to a turtle
    Dream Wrexan looks in the pool for a kappa
    Dream Wrexan: sounds like a sorority
    Calvino Rabeni: the teacher would tell us to - when in the water - keep "anus" tight, because the kappa were known to steal energy through that area
    Xeno Octavia: i have octypustarfish one in my neighborhood
    Xeno Octavia: SL of course
    Dream Wrexan: I just found a sketch of a kappa on the net
    Dream Wrexan: looks like a cross between a turtle and a frog
    Xeno Octavia: tho haves lots around in FL too --they protectors
    Dream Wrexan: http://turning-iwatean.blogspot.com/...creatures.html
    Dream Wrexan: eek - I live in Florida!
    Xeno Octavia: coroc s aor allis
    Xeno Octavia: lol sed crocs or allies
    Dream Wrexan: hi, Zaldaan
    Paradise Tennant: hiya zaldaan :)
    Xeno Octavia: Hi Zal
    Zaldaan Sirnah: stop
    --BELL--
    Xeno Octavia: lol Zal we allreddy tried
    Calvino Rabeni: often a nature spirit would transform into a demon, due to some great injustice perpetrated on it by humans - and then get stuck that way for a long time
    Paradise Tennant: nods ..not a pleasant fate
    Zaldaan Sirnah: where is it?
    Xeno Octavia: where what ---sound
    Calvino Rabeni: WIth the internet it's easy to dip into the mythologies of other cultures
    Calvino Rabeni: including the shinto mysticism of japan for instance
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.crunchyroll.com/natsume
    Calvino Rabeni: I came across it while researching the backgrond of the art Aikido
    Dream Wrexan: It's hard to imagine life without the Internet
    Dream Wrexan: I'm always searching to learn more
    Xeno Octavia: didnt take long for ppl feel that
    Dream Wrexan: I wonder if people still buy encyclopedias
    Dream Wrexan: probably not - they're expensive and get out of date so quickly
    Xeno Octavia: they got wiki
    Dream Wrexan: even books are beginning to become scarce
    Dream Wrexan: and newspapers
    Calvino Rabeni: I didn't notice that about books
    Calvino Rabeni: Actually the used book market is really efficient nowadays
    Dream Wrexan: Many are now available online - like Kindle
    Dream Wrexan: even my schoolbooks are available in electronic versions
    Calvino Rabeni: all the shops are networked - and the books are cheaply found and ordered on the computer
    Xeno Octavia: i go to allbookstores.com
    Paradise Tennant: smiles ..likes reading books something very comforting about the smell of them ..particularly the onld ones :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I like used ones - that have the touch of having been seen and handled
    Xeno Octavia: i havent been in a used bookstore --since ths after noon
    Calvino Rabeni: especially ex-library books, for some reason
    Paradise Tennant: nods loves library books :0
    stevenaia Michinaga: some you just need to have to refer to again and again
    stevenaia Michinaga: i ching book... A Pattern Languge
    Xeno Octavia: some kool with bk clubs
    Calvino Rabeni: good choices steve
    Xeno Octavia: I Ching a rare actual meme
    Calvino Rabeni: ?
    Xeno Octavia: ? Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: What does "I Ching a rare actual meme" mean?
    Xeno Octavia: lotta talk bout memes most BS I Ching one of few that are real-ish
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght, I see, yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think the Meme meme has staying power
    --BELL--
    Paradise Tennant: hmm meme ?
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
    stevenaia Michinaga: ?
    Xeno Octavia: Cal --is mostly misunderstood but if humans not go extinct soonlt may be usful for societal evolution
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a little unfortunate, because the idea is constructed almost by definition to be BS in a way
    Xeno Octavia: so were genes
    Calvino Rabeni: Mark Twain put it this way "A good lie will have traveled half way around the world while the truth is putting on her boots."
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Xeno Octavia: did u read chapt 11 --doesnt sound ment for BS
    Paradise Tennant: perfect ! that is a great quote
    Xeno Octavia: my teachers say 'truth is the next lie i tell u'
    stevenaia Michinaga: Chapter 11 of what?
    Xeno Octavia: brb fl foner
    Sylectra Darwin: hi folks, sorry I am late, network troubles
    Paradise Tennant: hya sylecrra .. gtsy :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Sylectra
    Sylectra Darwin: Good to see you all!
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Sylectra - it's been *ages*
    Dream Wrexan: hi, sylectra
    stevenaia Michinaga: you all moved in your new place?
    Sylectra Darwin: We are except for a new nonessentials.
    Sylectra Darwin: What were you discussing before I so rudely interrupted :)
    Dream Wrexan: memes
    Paradise Tennant: hiya tanja :) welcome :)
    Xeno Octavia: steve 11 of selfish gene tho i still goned
    Tanja Cisse: hello
    Paradise Tennant: have you been to pab before ?
    Sylectra Darwin: Welcome Tanja :)
    Tanja Cisse: ty
    Sylectra Darwin: So, what about memes were we discussing?
    Calvino Rabeni: Nothing much -- maybe the meme-ness of the meme meme.
    Sylectra Darwin: LOL!
    Sylectra Darwin: cute.
    Calvino Rabeni: Sorry :)
    Dream Wrexan: earlier we were talking about animal spirits
    Dream Wrexan: then books
    Dream Wrexan: not sure how memes came up
    Sylectra Darwin: Don't be. Plenty of room for laughter.
    Dream Wrexan: oh yes - I Ching
    stevenaia Michinaga: and books
    Dream Wrexan: Do you have any of those books you refer to over and over again, Sylectra?
    Sylectra Darwin: smiles
    Sylectra Darwin: which do you mean? I was thinking memes relate to collective consciousness.
    Dream Wrexan: memes more as collective cultural ideas communicated in writing, I think
    Dream Wrexan: I ching fits there
    --BELL--
    Sylectra Darwin: I like to refer to the Tao of Pooh, the Te of Piglet at times
    Sylectra Darwin: Has anyone claimed the log?
    Paradise Tennant: I did
    Paradise Tennant: I am filling in for lucinda
    Sylectra Darwin: ok, thanks
    Dream Wrexan: Suppose the Christian or Hebrew bibles could be considered memes?
    Sylectra Darwin: Yes, I would agree.
    Dream Wrexan: Koran? Bagavadgita?
    Sylectra Darwin: Have any of you heard of the idea that memes might have their own evolution?
    Calvino Rabeni: The whole book, or rather, some of the ideas in them?
    Dream Wrexan: I'm no sure - the whole concept of meme is a bit nebulous to me
    Paradise Tennant: ideas are the essence it seems of a meme
    stevenaia Michinaga: Pinnoccio?
    Dream Wrexan: "a unit of cultural ideas, symbols or practices, which can be transmitted from one mind to another through writing, speech, gestures, rituals or other imitable phenomena."
    Dream Wrexan: sure, stevenaia - why not?
    Calvino Rabeni: I love pinnoccio
    stevenaia Michinaga: much in that little story
    Dream Wrexan: hard to think of anything written told or acted out that wouldn't fit
    Paradise Tennant: has a pinnoccio fantasy
    Dream Wrexan: lol
    Paradise Tennant: dreams that as a species we develop for our preservation
    Sylectra Darwin: imitable phenomena, can that be any more vague?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, for instance, all the SF robot stories where the robot wanted to become human
    Dream Wrexan: Great movie - A I
    Paradise Tennant: the trait of having our noses grow when we are .. not speaking the truth .. sit sometimes in meetings focused on the end of someone's nose
    Sylectra Darwin: Paradise, O_o
    Calvino Rabeni: And Star Trek's "Commander Data"
    Sylectra Darwin: I love that example. Data is always imitating humans in the hopes of catching some of what it's like to be human.
    Dream Wrexan: well, folks - its the bewitching hour for me FL) Thanks for the companionship. :-)
    Paradise Tennant: no one ever copied him really
    Sylectra Darwin: But are memes actually a helpful concept or just intellectual dressing?
    Calvino Rabeni: Sweet dreams, Dream :)
    Paradise Tennant: good nite dream thank you for the conversation
    Sylectra Darwin: Dream, nice to meet you :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: perhaps sometimes a label should come subsequent to an understanding, and as such you must put the label aside for a while.
    Paradise Tennant: getting late here too .. amd am a bit sleepy .. going to wish you a good nite and thanks as always for the conversation :)
    Paradise Tennant: namaste :)
    Sylectra Darwin: Paradise, you said no one ever copied him really - do you mean Data?
    stevenaia Michinaga: night paradise
    Calvino Rabeni: @sylectra, personally I don't think memes are that useful a concept
    Sylectra Darwin: good night, Paradise!
    Paradise Tennant: hmm cannot remember an episode where somone tried to become like him
    Paradise Tennant: can you ?
    stevenaia Michinaga: it was a child
    Sylectra Darwin: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: Funny - there were some copies of Data - I think he had an evil brother
    Sylectra Darwin: oh yes!
    Paradise Tennant: yes!
    Paradise Tennant: he even looked mean
    Zaldaan Sirnah: People form phrases which are adopted by others -- media allows this as a widespread phenomena whereas otherwise locale-dependent variations are obviously very prevalent.
    Sylectra Darwin: Valley Girl speak.
    Sylectra Darwin: "Where's the Beef?"
    Zaldaan Sirnah: In the U.S., as far as I can tell, this is a serious, crippling, filter on our ability to communicate.
    Sylectra Darwin: Thinking out of the box.
    Calvino Rabeni: Valley speak didn't spread from written media - not I think from video - it was primarily oral
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at one and all trundles off to bed :)
    Sylectra Darwin: Hey Lucinda!
    Sylectra Darwin: Nice to meet you.
    Sylectra Darwin: Paradise just left.
    Lucinda Lavender: yes!
    Lucinda Lavender: nice!
    Lucinda Lavender: I am scraping caulk as being...
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must be off as well
    stevenaia Michinaga: night all
    Sylectra Darwin: Zaldaan, you said " In the U.S., as far as I can tell, this is a serious, crippling, filter on our ability to communicate." - can you elaborate?
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Steve
    Sylectra Darwin: Stevie, it was great seeing you.
    Lucinda Lavender: Thank you so much for helping!
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Sylectra Darwin: Get that tattoo fixed. Okay?
    Lucinda Lavender: back to it!
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Our system, be it heart or mind, has elaborate sensitivities to the present situation. Yet with almost incredibly dumbed-down communications abilities -- people simply do not convey it.
    Sylectra Darwin: Actually, Paradise got the log before I arrived :)
    Sylectra Darwin: she's gone again, hehe
    Calvino Rabeni: Can you elaborate the elaboration, Zal?
    Sylectra Darwin: Zaldaan, do you think we are mentally freezing up from not exercising that part of our minds?
    Sylectra Darwin cracks up
    Zaldaan Sirnah: It would be better to back away and communicate with moans and grunts, where we can then be attentive to all the subtle variations, or to move forward to realize that these words are limitations -- that we do not understand each other by them.
    Sylectra Darwin pokes Xeno
    Sylectra Darwin: Oh cool, our words are limiting us?
    Xeno Octavia: still on fone lol
    Sylectra Darwin: hehe, ok Xeno
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: Wo was it that said, the main job of philosophy is to liberate people from their enslavement by language?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I recall the quote but not the source, Calvino.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Sylectra, when someone says "hello" to you, what are they saying?
    Sylectra Darwin: I think that quote seems a bit disingenuous considering how many verbose philosophers there are.
    Sylectra Darwin: Good question. I assume they are saying, I see you.
    Calvino Rabeni: I see the irony Sylectra
    Sylectra Darwin: lol
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Right -- at face value that's what people generally accept it as. However, we know truly that it is not the case. They are truly expressing their state of being at each point in time of their lives.
    Sylectra Darwin: few are gifted with conciseness, I am just saying.
    Calvino Rabeni: Zan has a point about returning to grunts - but I don't think we can point the finger at modern media as the tight point of the whole "filter"
    Calvino Rabeni: those ideas of the significance of language are pre-electronic
    Calvino Rabeni: more part of the written / academic cultures
    Sylectra Darwin: were we discussing memes still, as in how the are prevented from being disseminated because of a vapid modern culture? Or had we turned a corner to a slightly different topic?
    Calvino Rabeni: Glad you pointed that out, Zal
    Calvino Rabeni: Good question Sylectra
    Calvino Rabeni: They're related surely
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Memes is too general, or I haven't developed my understanding of it to be a unified principle of its own.
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe this is a cheap shot, but I'd like to point out that one rather ancient - and insidious - meme is the idea of the "Topic"
    Calvino Rabeni: There's not enough in memes to hold together as a unified principle
    Calvino Rabeni: it only holds together by its "memeness"
    Zaldaan Sirnah: The way someone performs their fighting system in their country has a personality, and two kids speaking slang as well. To classify "imitable" (sp?) expression of personality under a new term might serve some purpose (like drawing people's attention to these phenomena)...
    Zaldaan Sirnah: but you know what, I'm not well-read in Dawkins nor the German author from 1904 either :)
    Xeno Octavia: yes i off fone --was long lost friend for yrs that i finally foumnd
    Xeno Octavia: lol u guys talkin bout memes
    Calvino Rabeni: So Zal, what's in a word?
    Xeno Octavia: memes are all there is in culture
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I have noticed one serious issue -- someone can say something to another, which, in particular during times of succeptibility, can influence them in certain behavior -- in this case specifically bad habits, for example.
    Calvino Rabeni: TO me the concept of meme, basically exemplifies the vapidity of modern culture
    Xeno Octavia: SL is a meme these seats are memes --
    Xeno Octavia: all things as well as thoughts are memes
    Zaldaan Sirnah: This might bring new behavior -- and yet the system has accepted this as its guidance. It is, basically, a disease which was formed at the level of words, primarily, yet it infects this individual.
    Calvino Rabeni: True zal - but it would work for good behavior also, wouldn't it?
    Xeno Octavia: most of whatts called memes are as much memes as prebiotic ocean was genes
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Calvino, absolutely. One can cure others problems in their lives with well-crafted advice.
    --BELL--
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I wasn't blaming media for anything -- it's a phenomenon. It brings more distant areas into harmony.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I mean, I can blame media for plenty of things... :)
    Calvino Rabeni: No, I meant Language. Words are an easy target to get the blame for inauthenticity of communication and relationship
    Zaldaan Sirnah: But that's not what I was saying -- just the wider unification of language and standardized colloquial terms.
    Sylectra Darwin: Calvino, that was interesting.
    Sylectra Darwin: Words are an easy target
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Calvino, oh, no it's not the fault of words. They are what they are.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes,they aren't the tail that wags the dog
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Oh I read that as, "they are" :)
    Xeno Octavia: words are what intellectuals use to BS each other
    Zaldaan Sirnah: We make it, and it does cause the wagging. Not in everyone -- it's individual.
    Calvino Rabeni: I guess birds do it also Xeno
    Xeno Octavia: probly
    Calvino Rabeni: Good point Zal
    Sylectra Darwin: nods
    Xeno Octavia: ppl make noises [words ] and think therefore they have meaning --but like other animals just noises
    Calvino Rabeni: "just" ?
    Calvino Rabeni: The correct use of language has power
    Xeno Octavia: correct??
    Calvino Rabeni: Not because the language is correct, but because of what the speakers have to do, to use it that way
    Zaldaan Sirnah: If you listen to an animal you'll see they are quite detailed in what they convey through their sounds.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Zaldaan Sirnah: At risk of saying something wrong -- aren't words sounds?
    Xeno Octavia: most ppl coomunicate assumptively ---correct would be assuredly
    Calvino Rabeni: And listen to humans
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Oh, they can be written too. Hmm.
    Calvino Rabeni: They are sounds, and have a dual nature
    Zaldaan Sirnah: And the visual processing of words is adjacent to the audio processing centers (in the brain).
    Xeno Octavia: brain a machine that awareness uses
    Zaldaan Sirnah: The monkeys or chimps they studied made distinct noises when food was brought -- and different noises when, for example, grapes, vs. another food, were brought into the cage area. :)
    Xeno Octavia: chimps an dbonobs have been taught sign language
    Zaldaan Sirnah: You can imagine them all being sensitive to their own language. I don't think these things should be surprising -- if we're not aware of it it should be more like, "oh, of course, I knew that my whole life."
    Sylectra Darwin: so we are passing memes to the animals who we have regular contact with?
    Xeno Octavia: Syl??
    Calvino Rabeni: Agree Zal
    Calvino Rabeni: It's not a popular paradigm in linguistics, but it does exist
    Sylectra Darwin: yes?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Sylectra, could be. :) Perhaps in the wild they are not so clever with their words, but their exposure to the greatness of human capability has imparted that wonder.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I am of the view that it is innate capability which everything expresses to different degrees and in different ways. :)
    Sylectra Darwin: Maybe they pass memes to us?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: No doubt.
    Xeno Octavia: lol human greatness --we chumps compared to Bonobos
    Sylectra Darwin: I personally learned to enjoy face nuzzling from my yellow lab.
    Calvino Rabeni: A keyword is "phonosemantics" - the way that the sounds of language embody meaning
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.trismegistos.com/MagicalLetterPage/
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.trismegistos.com/MagicalL...les/Frank.html
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it's worth looking at because it's a minority position in modern linguistics
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Goto minute 16 and 40 seconds: http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_she...deception.html It's 1.5 minutes.
    Calvino Rabeni: And I'll also refer again to the work on "Honest Signals" which is building the idea that a huge amount of our thinking is subconscious, social, and embodied
    Sylectra Darwin: that makes sense, Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Honest-Signals.../dp/0262162563
    --BELL--
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Which part of this is minority?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think basically, to understand the points Zal is implying, it's necessary to unlearn some very basic assumptions of modern linguistics
    Sylectra Darwin: of course.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: like what?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: No I think one must listen but not be misled by our existing associations. It applies to everyone, not just those with any scholarly knowledge of linguistics :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And at that point it might seem - "oh, of course, I knew that my whole life."
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght Zal, the academics only formalize what the culture as a whole believes
    Calvino Rabeni: We can't really "credit" or "blame" the intellectuals for the state of culture
    Xeno Octavia: the difftween semantics and memetrics is semantics tells how u use words and memetics tells how words use u
    Sylectra Darwin: that rings true, but the timing varies on it
    Calvino Rabeni: Even though it's a popular paradigm in the history of ideas to do so
    Calvino Rabeni: That is a difference - Xeno - a caricature perhaps to make a point
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Many people have advanced thought in things, but it's difficult for them to explain it properly. I'm still reading this paper, but the examples of "ugg, ahh, rrr," etc. He says we intuitively feel/know their meanings. I would say that those do not have the distinct relationships of the more-complicated words, which reach advanced processing areas. In fact, they are fundamental sounds and therefore we are not only more aware of the imparted feeling, but we are not misled by the mistakes of higher calculations/processing. And faulty logic is a problem for many people.
    Xeno Octavia: why characture
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Okay, that was too long. :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: So, when we listen, we should be keeping ourselves in a state of awareness so we do NOT get misled (actually led into) wrong associations.
    Calvino Rabeni: True
    Calvino Rabeni: But there are difficulties with that
    Sylectra Darwin: brb
    Xeno Octavia: hopefully next species will be able to communicate assuradly this species has lost it
    Calvino Rabeni: " Speakk for yourself, Zeno
    Xeno Octavia: who else ,Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: "this species"
    Xeno Octavia: tho my self is in this species as well as next
    Calvino Rabeni: Next?
    Xeno Octavia: this is Homo sap next is Huma societus
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I believe practices like meditation, calmness, attentiveness, etc. assist in people listening without the reactive nature. Watch two people in an even slightly heated conversation -- especially if you are able to see a bigger picture or solution involved. You will see they go back and forth getting distracted with each others bait and habitual inclinations to defend themselves and argue over shallow ripples in their communication.
    Sylectra Darwin: friends, I must sign off and sleep
    Calvino Rabeni: Let me ask you this - iis there any reason to assumme that tthes communication issues are not intrinsic to embodied intelligence - and that therefore, some "next" species could be diferent?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: People are so afraid of each other. Lovers, and children and parents.
    Xeno Octavia: yes unless theyve learned triading
    Sylectra Darwin: Thanks very much for the interesting conversation!
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for being here Sylectra
    Zaldaan Sirnah: It feels so wrong to accept someone else's communications -- I'm not sure what it is, we feel like we're "losing" something perhaps.
    Sylectra Darwin: Good to see you all :)
    Xeno Octavia: and yes this species is alienating next is intimacy making
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Sylectra, take care.
    Calvino Rabeni: See you later :)
    Xeno Octavia: g'nite Syl!!
    Zaldaan Sirnah: If we get calm and focus on ourselves -- perhaps if we try to be aware of our heart -- the same conflicts don't exist.
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe Xeno, it's a bedtime story for adults, to create these grand schemes about our evolution and its future improvement
    Xeno Octavia: wshy??
    Xeno Octavia: why??
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that could help, Zaldaan
    Xeno Octavia: bneeds b replaced not improved
    Calvino Rabeni: But what if it simply focused conflicts to a higher, more real level?
    Xeno Octavia: meaning
    Calvino Rabeni: About evolution - it doesn't have some grand engine of improvement built into it
    Xeno Octavia: as used by traditional biologists
    Calvino Rabeni: It basically just slowly makes things work adequately well, with the current conditions, whatever they are
    Xeno Octavia: but can be conscioudly memetically implimentede
    Xeno Octavia: yes Cal so the option is only to go extinct
    Calvino Rabeni: it has no ability to forecast future conditions nor to create forms that transcend immediacy
    Xeno Octavia: what it Cal??
    Calvino Rabeni: Evolution
    Xeno Octavia: lol cCal wht is evolution then
    Calvino Rabeni: But I do agree, it functions on now, non-genetic and accelerated basis
    --BELL--
    Xeno Octavia: we need a new cultural meme
    Zaldaan Sirnah: One that makes people suffer, Xeno?
    Xeno Octavia: ?? that makes them real ppl suffer well enuf alreddy
    Calvino Rabeni: So many people have snuck some metaphysics of "intelligent design" into the concept of "evolution"
    Xeno Octavia: thats external BS design not aware cxonscious evo
    Zaldaan Sirnah: You guys are wasting a lot of time I think.
    Xeno Octavia: what else it good for
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Getting to some of your goals faster so you can move on with other things you want. :)
    Calvino Rabeni: What are you doing here Zal, with your time ?
    Xeno Octavia: try focusing mandala
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I'm trying to follow my instruction. :)
    Xeno Octavia: ??
    Calvino Rabeni: ??
    Calvino Rabeni: So that sounds like there's a conscious intent behind your activities
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Oh, well part of that instruction is to just be.
    Xeno Octavia: ??
    Zaldaan Sirnah: At a certain point, one recognizes that, in being, they innately abide by instruction of, say, their teacher/master.
    Xeno Octavia: i only just be
    Zaldaan Sirnah: What's that about assume?
    Calvino Rabeni: "just" ?
    Xeno Octavia: Guenthger says innermost mentor
    Calvino Rabeni: Say more about "assume" Zal, if you would
    Calvino Rabeni: I think one of the themes here, is that Zal believes in the necessity of following a teacher - and perhaps that isn't true for myself and/or Xeno
    Calvino Rabeni: You could say the same for many of the people that attend this meeitng
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Okay, so a friend of mine, not an enemy, is with me, and they see me speculating over some situations and they work with me on it. Yet to a certain extent each of them is more aware and more advanced in one topic or another, so they can assist each other.
    Calvino Rabeni: Where they look for their insights and non-egoic knowledge varies from person to person
    Xeno Octavia: i my own deepest teacher
    Zaldaan Sirnah: No, I don't think it's necessary to follow a teacher. You often mis-portay me.
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it's interesting to express that assumption
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, Zal, I do my best
    Zaldaan Sirnah: So, then my friend sees I have a lot of things I want to do, and he understands that some of them I don't want to waste my time on, and some of them I do enjoy the process, or the time spent with him/her.
    Calvino Rabeni: Good friend
    Calvino Rabeni: So it sounds like "not wasting time" is an important consideration
    Calvino Rabeni: hopefully I don't mis-portray that ?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Because there's often value in that time spent. But sometimes an outsider can remind me of my priorities, or can, more delicately, just help me with the present task such that I can get back to my priorities -- without me knowing that he did it.
    Calvino Rabeni: Right
    Zaldaan Sirnah: So when I watch you for a long time, I can see your interests and values -- and I am not judging it, but I see you value understanding, and the "truth" or stable principles whereas other phenomena can be explained, understood, and better dealt with.
    Calvino Rabeni: There's value in having friends like that, and being aware of them
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: whereas -> whereby
    Zaldaan Sirnah: And some things are not "truth", but guidance towards it, or towards stability. In this way the knowledge placed at the location of so and so, is able to guide you in the direction of MY destination, even if I cannot pinpoint it at any time; for a person tells me right, then left, then right, and eventually I get to my goal but I did not understand.
    Xeno Octavia: does a journey need have a goal??
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Yeah, whereby :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Xeno, no.. that's why I normally don't say anything, just participate along with people. :)
    Xeno Octavia: but i thinks me journey over for now --needs go feed me para!
    Calvino Rabeni: Well this subway goes round and round
    Zaldaan Sirnah: It's only after noticing this for a while, in wonder, that I say, "hmm.. maybe the useless philosophical back and forth part is NOT the highest valued part in this case."
    Xeno Octavia: iwas thinkin of trungpa's journey without a goal : ))
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that's is true Zal
    Calvino Rabeni: The philosophical back and forth is not even the main event
    Xeno Octavia: so nite its been kool!! : ))
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night Xeno :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Reading the document by Joseph Gilbert.. so far I think it's kind of nice.
    Calvino Rabeni: I like the homey style
    Calvino Rabeni: also the main researcher of that site, has an engaging humor
    Zaldaan Sirnah: It's interesting -- with early communications something might indicate to go 'sit down'. Perhaps some primates tell each other this sometimes.
    Calvino Rabeni: Seems highly likely to be a part of their communication capabilities
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Eventually, all the variations of, "oh you're hurt" or "I recognize you're tired", etc. (Granted, this is a high level of recognition of another party's state of being, and I'm not really saying this is present at this level in chimps)...
    Zaldaan Sirnah: those eventually become language, where we do retain many of those conventions, but we also develop the word, "chair"
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Then we have, "have a seat, and the doctor will be right in."
    Zaldaan Sirnah: necessary actions, and it's unnecessary for the other details to be there; but where is the separation between the intimate empathetic communications and the strictly-formed words, and long sentences, we also use?

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