2010.07.12 19:00 - Thunderstorm Transformations

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    The Guardian for this meeting was SophiaSharon Larnia. The comments are by SophiaSharon Larnia. The participants were Bruce, Calvino and myself. Topics ranged from dreaming and time, to appreciating the presence of appearance as a presentation by Being in viewing traumatic experiences.


    Bruce Mowbray: Good evening (?), Sharon.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Bruce :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes! evening
    SophiaSharon Larnia: although I'm still used to coming here during the daytime
    SophiaSharon Larnia: was just thinking I could drop that perception of time
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, me too. I try to make three sessions daily, though, and one never know (or at least I don't know) where on earth the other avi's are coming from (or when.)
    Bruce Mowbray: Yep... dropping the time perception is a biggie -- and so important. We do that in dreams, don't we?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) three times a day? very nice
    Bruce Mowbray: i TRY to make it that many times -- often there are other priorities, of course.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: In most of my dreams time has no significance related to real time, a dream will be filled with details and events and I was asleep for a short while
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but time has a place there, as a setting
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, dreaming puts us into a time warp, for sure.
    Bruce Mowbray: Interesting idea: "Time has a place there, as a setting."
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a backdrop
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I cant remember one that took place in a no time place
    SophiaSharon Larnia: although that would be beyond interesting
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ok now babbling, but in a way they all do, i meant as a backdrop?
    Bruce Mowbray: Of course -- a backdrop is good --
    Bruce Mowbray: During "day-dreaming" also, time can get very spacy.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: very much
    SophiaSharon Larnia: something I do very frequently :D
    Bruce Mowbray: Things that happened 60 years ago (in my life) seem like they happened just this morning -- and there is often emotional content to go along with that.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: does the emotional content keep them there?
    Bruce Mowbray: Using the Being-seeing is a wonderful way to become a spectator to one's own "history."
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: Probably the emotional stuff keeps them running through the brain -- but being able to "see" them from another "viewpoint" (Being as Seeing -- or Playing as Being) helps clear the emotional stuff out.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: interesting
    Bruce Mowbray: especially helpful with adult children of abusive families of origin.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: that is an aspect I haven’t thought of yet, I have seen this connection, but in a broader sense


    Bruce Mowbray: Have I told you about being wakened this morning at 4 a.m. by a violent thunderstorm...?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: in the sense of a more broad definition of suffering
    Bruce Mowbray: (I might have mentioned this earlier when you were present.)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: not zeroed in to such a specific thing
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no you didn’t :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, I was sound asleep when a thunderstorm rolled through and woke me up.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    Bruce Mowbray: I'd been reading Pema's introduction before going to sleep -- so the first thing that came into my mind was that.
    Bruce Mowbray: I began to see the storm as something being presented (an appearance) by Being.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: starting at the end indeed
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes?
    Bruce Mowbray: and the violence of the storm triggered violence from my childhood (memories)...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: they are frightening, induce vulnerability
    Bruce Mowbray: BUT -- when I put BOTH the storm and the memories in the framework of "appearances presented by Being," there was a sort of transformation.
    Bruce Mowbray: I think this might be very valuable for PTSD sufferers.

    SophiaSharon Larnia: reminds me of immersion therapy, but its not like it, on second thought
    Bruce Mowbray: I don't know about "immersion therapy..." Is that anything like [ha ha] drowning -- or baptism?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i am tired so I'm sure i phrased it wrong hold on
    Bruce Mowbray: take your time -- np.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I meant Exposure therapy, a type of behavior therapy in which people are exposed repeatedly to the anxiety-provoking situation
    Bruce Mowbray: OK -- that would be a form of de-sensitization.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but what you are talking about is different
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes -- what I mean is very different.

    Bruce Mowbray: It is standing back from the memory -- or from the vulnerability created by the storm -- and putting the whole thing into a different. . . (words....???) space.
    Bruce Mowbray: putting myself into a different space (or mind) vis a vis the frightening experience.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
    Bruce Mowbray: It is the opposite of FACING DOWN THE FEAR with ego.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: is it disassociative in any way, do you think?
    Bruce Mowbray: Men, you know, aren't supposed to FEAR or GRIEVE.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: this is a point I have not resolved for myself satisfactorily
    Bruce Mowbray: It is disassociative in a way -- but in a way that heals, not just disconnects.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: unfortunately Bruce
    SophiaSharon Larnia: joining and appreciating vs blocking it out
    Bruce Mowbray: Our would be a much less violent world if men could grieve and be afraid -- instead of having to PROVE themselves "above" (stronger than) all that.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the appearance as presented by being
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I agree !
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, joining and appreciating the fear and the grief ---
    Bruce Mowbray: as appearances presented by Being -- exactly!


    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Calvino :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Calvino.
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Bruce, Sharon
    SophiaSharon Larnia: we are talking about seeing appearance as presented by being as a way to deal with PTSD, I'm not sure if I summarized that well :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Ye4s -- fine ---
    Bruce Mowbray: using the method as a way of dealing with dears of all sorts -- including childhood memories and PTSD from assaultive incidents, etc.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Pamela :)
    Bruce Mowbray: fears.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Pamala!
    Pamala Clift: hi bruce and Shophia and cal
    Bruce Mowbray: How about another quick summary, Sharon?
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Pamela
    Bruce Mowbray: Basically -- we were talking about using our method (Play as Being) as a way of dealing with traumatic memories, PTSD, etc.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: seeing the vulnerability of such moments, to quote you *smile*
    SophiaSharon Larnia: [19:25] Bruce Mowbray: putting myself into a different space (or mind) vis a vis the frightening experience. [19:25] SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm [19:25] Bruce Mowbray: It is the opposite of FACING DOWN THE FEAR with ego.
    Pamala Clift: what if you are not conscious of any fears?
    Bruce Mowbray: Then it might not be a problem -- unless the subconscious stuff gets in the wayyyyy.....
    Bruce Mowbray: not.
    Pamala Clift: oh pooh.. just got a comman from God Powers.. a linden is calling..lol
    Bruce Mowbray: OK Bye, Pamala!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Pamela :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Pamala* sorry
    Bruce Mowbray: OK. Now, where were we?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Calvino, how are you tonight?
    Calvino Rabeni: I was mentally involved with wiki writing and stuff - now shifting to try to be present :)
    Bruce Mowbray: yes.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I mentioned earlier day dreaming alot, it does keep me out of the present
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm interested in where the PTSD connection came from - actually I know of awareness-based PTSD healing approaches, so it does confirm the potential for that idea
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, we had just mentioned that before your arrival here tonight.
    Bruce Mowbray: mentioned.
    Bruce Mowbray: It is helpful (VERY) for me to re-frame the trauma as an appearance presented by Being.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is a basic move in awareness based therapies
    Calvino Rabeni: pains and emotional significance get relaxed, it can become "energy" and be able to start to move or break up
    Calvino Rabeni: but it has to be done in a really "experiential" way
    Bruce Mowbray: yes.
    Calvino Rabeni: because the learning is not done by the intellect
    Bruce Mowbray: exactly.
    Calvino Rabeni: it is done by the lower centers of the mind
    SophiaSharon Larnia: my knee jerk association was with exposure therapy, but what he meant is really very different
    Calvino Rabeni: the fight or flight reaction parts of the mind, not the idea-having parts
    Bruce Mowbray: yes.
    Calvino Rabeni: it's a little like what happens with a physical injury
    Calvino Rabeni: like I sprained my ankle
    Calvino Rabeni: then there is a protective reflex that gets learned
    Calvino Rabeni: "don't move that way" "don't step on it" etc.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: brb :)
    Calvino Rabeni: even after healing, that learned muscle pattern is still present
    Calvino Rabeni: and can be hard to "unlearn"
    Bruce Mowbray: indeed. Ironically, one is able to bring out the fear (and the grief) when it's not the ego trying to FACE THEM DOWN (manly stuff, that!)


    Bruce Mowbray: So, Play as Being enables one to be more vulnerable --
    Calvino Rabeni: The facing has to be done by the soma - the bodymind itself
    Calvino Rabeni: and it works best without ego meddling
    Calvino Rabeni: experience in healing arts has discovered that a gentle, slow, subtle approach is effective and recommended
    Calvino Rabeni: there's a threshold that should not be exceeded
    Calvino Rabeni: if there is too much emotional activation, the mind will not be present and will "shut down" or dissociate
    Calvino Rabeni: and if there is too little, the energy doesn't move
    Calvino Rabeni: so it is a kind of "goldilocks" approach - most effective is "just right" :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: seeing it as an appearance, an environment painted...I'm trying to see a connection between that and what you are saying :)
    Calvino Rabeni: but it's been found, that "just right" is often LESS than what the ego either hopes or fears
    Bruce Mowbray: In your experience with PaB, either of you or both, does PaB open up dangers such as Calvino has described?
    Bruce Mowbray: open up.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: somehow I'm thinking of a relativistic and absolute view
    Calvino Rabeni: The connection with appearance is - that the experience of appearance is to have a gentle distance between observer and the phenomenon
    Bruce Mowbray: yes.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I haven't found it so, Bruce
    Calvino Rabeni: the observer is the "whole, healed self" - the phenomenon is the symptoms of trauma - feelings or images that seem threatening
    Calvino Rabeni: and the therapeutic healing process involves observing those appearances and finding them not to be threatening any more
    Bruce Mowbray: "gentle distance" is good. . . and "whole healed self" as observer -- very good.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I have found it a positive experience in appreciation, but I am overly sensitive to things I perceive as disturbing (thats a personal thing tho)
    Calvino Rabeni: The key thing is getting the "distance" *just right*
    Bruce Mowbray: Do you know the phrase: "Stay with the open question"?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: there is a feeling of vulnerability and a conscious allowance of the activation of those disturbing feelings, but not intense enough to be really threatening
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that is exactly what Sharon and I were talking about earlier.
    Calvino Rabeni: It has to involve the whole sense of self, physical feelings and al
    Calvino Rabeni: if by "open question" one means an intellectual thinking idea, then it won't be effective in healing those deep structures like PTSD
    Calvino Rabeni: it can't be done intellectually
    Calvino Rabeni: but if Question means really Full Awareness, then it is promising
    Bruce Mowbray: no -- not that at all -- More like a Koan... The rational mind is not up to it...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, I think that's consistent with what I mean too
    Bruce Mowbray: One can bring one's whole self to the koan (or to the traumatic memory AS A Koan. . .
    Calvino Rabeni: True, if someone knows how to approach a Koan in *that way*
    Calvino Rabeni: but if they think it's an idea-puzzle to be figured out, it won't work
    SophiaSharon Larnia: guilty :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Better a full-body, direct experience.
    Bruce Mowbray: Of course. But the idea of a koan (as used by a Zen master) is to get the student BEYOND the idea-puzzle type of mind.
    Calvino Rabeni: Of the self being "whole and total" and encountering something
    Bruce Mowbray: yes.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that's the idea of Koans
    Bruce Mowbray: That's the koan's function in Zen ---
    Calvino Rabeni: As a therapy, it can be explained to people without using any ideas from Zen
    Bruce Mowbray: So. . . with PaB -- life experiences can become koans.
    Bruce Mowbray: (without using that language, of course).
    Calvino Rabeni: :)) right - without using that language :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i was wondering why not :)
    Calvino Rabeni: That understanding is for the communicator, not the one receiving
    Calvino Rabeni: because it is distracting Sophia
    Bruce Mowbray: without using "any ideas from Zen" were Cal's words...
    Calvino Rabeni: DO you know the story of the caterpillar and the toad?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh the actual word koan
    Calvino Rabeni: Actually a centipede :)
    Bruce Mowbray: 1 min before bell ;-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles


    SophiaSharon Larnia:

    The centipede was happy quite
    Until a toad in fun
    Said, 'Pray, which leg comes after which?'
    This raised her mind to such a pitch
    She lay distracted in a ditch
    Considering how to run. ( -- Anonymous)

    Bruce Mowbray: tell us about the centipede and the toad, Cal.
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: :)) perfect - that's the version I was going to quote :))
    Bruce Mowbray: cool.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yay :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yay :)
    Bruce Mowbray does the copy/paste thing with the rhyme.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hoped it was the right one
    Bruce Mowbray: I was awakened by a thunderstorm at 4 a.m. this morning --
    Bruce Mowbray: turned it into a "koan" --
    Bruce Mowbray: used PaB with it.
    Bruce Mowbray: amazing experience to have Being present the appearance of a thunderstorm. Being is quite an amazing ... Being.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I oo'd and ah'd tonight in a thunderstorm tonight also, then worried about a tree landing on my house
    Bruce Mowbray: yep -- That will bring one back quickly!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i love them tho :))
    Bruce Mowbray: me too.
    Bruce Mowbray: But there are several very tall trees near my house -- and we've been hit by lightning before.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yup, I'm surrounded :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Tis time for Bruce to hit the hay.
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you both for this conversation.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) nice to talk with you Bruce !
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks again, Cal, for you help with the wiki
    Calvino Rabeni: Good seeing you, Bruce
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye for now
    Bruce Mowbray: G'night!
    Bruce Mowbray: G'night.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) I have several things to do, and them I'm turning in too ^^
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night Sharon :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Good night Cal!

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