2010.07.14 01:00 - Some forms of influence

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bolonath Crystal. The comments are by Bolonath Crystal.

    Bolonath Crystal: hello pema :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Bolo!
    Pema Pera: Greetings from Sweden, from Gothenburg :)
    Bolonath Crystal: thanks, that's great :)
    Pema Pera: it's 10 am here, very civilized time to enter PaB
    Pema Pera: after a good European breakfast with muesli and yoghurt
    Bolonath Crystal: yes, same time zone here
    Pema Pera: but a bit longer sunshine here than with you :)
    Bolonath Crystal: sure
    Bolonath Crystal: but the days are still long enough here :)
    Pema Pera: it was clouded when I arrived yesterday evening, and still is . . . pity, since in the evening today the young moon will be near Venus, Mars, and Saturn, should be pretty . . . .
    Bolonath Crystal: sweden must be pretty cool now, i assume
    Pema Pera: ah, how funny! right now the sun broke through, writing this, the first time today!
    Bolonath Crystal: :)
    Pema Pera: must be your bright yellow shirt helping . . . .
    Bolonath Crystal: lol
    Pema Pera: (but only for a few seconds, still 99.9% cloud covering it seems)
    Bolonath Crystal: this is the traditional color combination of the sivananda parampara
    Pema Pera: not that cool, actually: having sunshine around the clock keeps things warm; it's in the twenties during the day, high teens still at night, no need even for a sweater
    Pema Pera: it's a pretty color, perhaps you call it "ochre"?
    Bolonath Crystal: i spent the last night in my garden and could watch the clouds vanish :)
    Bolonath Crystal: no, ochre is different. it is orange
    Pema Pera: so it works across Europe :-)
    Pema Pera: ah, ochre may be more like the top of the flames in front of us, attached to the pillar, while your shirt is more like the bottom of the flames
    Bolonath Crystal: i've been wearing a t-shirt like this in thailand and got lots of attention for it. as i learned later, this is a holy color in thailand, only worn by monks
    Pema Pera: but you're close to monk-like in your life, no :-)
    Bolonath Crystal: hm, i think i am, somehow
    Bolonath Crystal: but i wouldn't want to offend the minks there, so i changed to a completely hite design
    Bolonath Crystal: monks*
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: wearing mink would be too warm in Thailand . . .
    Bolonath Crystal: white*
    Bolonath Crystal: i'm typing like a horse today *g*
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Bolonath Crystal: i never saw an orange mink, btw ;)
    Pema Pera thinking about the clever Hans horse that could do arithmetic . . . .
    Pema Pera: Kluger Hans
    Bolonath Crystal: i heard about it
    Bolonath Crystal: long ago
    Pema Pera: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kluger_Hans
    Bolonath Crystal: hello cal
    Pema Pera: Hi Calvino!
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Bolo, Pema !

    Energy control supports healing

    Pema Pera: are you teaching every day, Bolo?
    Bolonath Crystal: not now
    Bolonath Crystal: only in winter
    Pema Pera: what is it that you're doing mostly during the summer?
    Bolonath Crystal: chilling, lol
    Pema Pera: hahaha, sounds good!
    Pema Pera: sat, chit, ananda
    Bolonath Crystal: sometimes interrupted by some acupuncture treatments
    Pema Pera: to take the chill away?
    Bolonath Crystal: to take pain away. i'm a healing practitioner
    Pema Pera: while you are doing acupuncture, to what extent is there an active meditation/contemplation component involved?
    Bolonath Crystal: i wouldn't call it meditation or contemplation...
    Bolonath Crystal: it is pranayama, energy control
    Bolonath Crystal: but could be used as contemplation
    Bolonath Crystal: as well
    Pema Pera: like what is called chi in China?
    Bolonath Crystal: exactly. chi and prana are the same
    Bolonath Crystal: yama means control
    Pema Pera: so while you are administering the needles, you are also actively working with prana?
    Bolonath Crystal: as far as i know, tai chi means energy control, too
    Bolonath Crystal: i use concentration to enhace the patients energy or to break blockades
    Bolonath Crystal: enhance*
    Bolonath Crystal: sometimes (in heavy cases) i use mantras, too. but silently, so that the patients usually don't get aware of it
    Pema Pera: so while you are putting in the needles, for example, are you also consciously directing your own energy towards or through the needles?
    Bolonath Crystal: rather towards the patient
    Pema Pera: more coverning the whole body? or trying to sense particular blockage spots?
    Bolonath Crystal: if there are blockeds or local injuries, i concentrate on the problematic zone to gather healing energy there
    Bolonath Crystal: blockades*
    Bolonath Crystal: in cases of general weakness i concentrate on the whole energy body
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you locate the blockages by sensing, or by inference, mostly?
    Bolonath Crystal: the problem is that i can not sense the energy body directly
    Bolonath Crystal: sometimes i get some intuitional hints
    Bolonath Crystal: but mostly the diagnosis is based on long talks, measurements and on what i see, hear and smell
    Calvino Rabeni: Is it part of that type of medicine - practitioners can / do use direct sensing?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or is it not emphasized as a technique?
    Bolonath Crystal: i think, everybody has his own private "style", growing from personal experiences and abilities
    Bolonath Crystal: but basicly of course i am following the rules of diagnosis in traditional chinese medicine

    Influences from religions on each other

    Pema Pera: is there a connection with Ayur Veda?
    Bolonath Crystal: yes, there is, because chinese travellers brought ayurveda from india to china long time ago. there it was merged with local philosophies
    Bolonath Crystal: it changed a lot in style since then
    Pema Pera: oh, how interesting! Around what century did that happen?
    Bolonath Crystal: but the basics are still the same
    Bolonath Crystal: i don't know, pema, but if i have to give an estimation, in must be around 1500 to 2000 years ago
    Bolonath Crystal: in=it*
    Pema Pera: I think nobody knows what exactly got transfered through the Silk Route -- there was quite a bit of traffic for many centuries
    Bolonath Crystal: right
    Pema Pera: and there are now all kind of interesting speculations about influences of early Christian sects on India and China, for example
    Pema Pera: I've no idea what to think of that, never having studied those ideas in detail
    Pema Pera: but the silk road, together with the upheaval of the Islamic invasions in India, certainly gives room for all kinds of speculation
    Bolonath Crystal: christianism is rather new. i'm not so sure, that the influences were very strong
    Pema Pera: We mostly know the form of Christianity that developed in Europe, and got very organized and powerful
    Bolonath Crystal: i see a lot of influences from indian religions on christianism
    Pema Pera: what happened during the first few centuries CE to the East of the Middle East is much less well documented
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd guess christianism didn't start with the historical jesus
    Bolonath Crystal: i think you are right, cal. jesus was no christian. but he is the one the christians refer to
    Bolonath Crystal: and i think, jesus was a yogi
    Bolonath Crystal: there is some saying, that he studied in india in his early years
    Bolonath Crystal: the word "amen" is derived from "om"
    Bolonath Crystal: the whole set of pictures that symbolizes the devil or the hell fits very well with the hindu god shiva

    New ideas need new situations

    Pema Pera: for people to be influential, the time and embedding in society must be right: for Jesus, for Mohammed, for Buddha -- enough communication, enough dissatisfaction with the current ideas -- so I think in all cases there must have been a kind of fertil soil, ready to receive the new aspects -- what was new about their ideas, while the ideas also had to connect with established view in order to grow roots and to get established themselves.
    Calvino Rabeni: I wasn't aware there was much devil or hell in the early christian teachings
    Calvino Rabeni: That's interesting Pema
    Pema Pera: or take communism, going back to Hegel and the spirit of the times of the nineteenth century
    Bolonath Crystal: pema: yes, that is about the same with a new genetic mutation
    Calvino Rabeni: Two very different social requirements - reform and orthodoxy
    Pema Pera: yes, it's evolution
    Pema Pera: or any fashion, I guess: should be shocking a bit, but still recognizable :-)
    Bolonath Crystal: brb... (coffee)
    Pema Pera: "what, no-self? but at least still meditation!" :)
    Pema Pera: when Buddhism came up within Hinduism, for example
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a typical and repeated pattern
    Pema Pera: btw, Calvino, thanks a lot for getting all that work done with our many wikis and such!
    Pema Pera: I very much appreciate you carrying the ball there, with Fael
    Calvino Rabeni: where a reform movement simplifies a previous tradition that has accumulated too much conceptual structure
    Calvino Rabeni: YW Pema
    Bolonath Crystal: as a result of buddhist influences in inia advaita vedanta was born
    Pema Pera: yes, it's quite biological: we talk about "rebirth" and "seeds of new ideas" for ideologies . . . in biology if an organism gets to old to heal, it's replaced by off spring
    Pema Pera: yes, that's interesting too, those influences working back to where it came from!
    Calvino Rabeni: I've been reading some essays by Lynn Margulis, who has a non-mainstream view of basic ideas in biology and evolution
    Calvino Rabeni: and quite an engaging author, along with her son
    Pema Pera: most of her ideas did become mainstream after a while
    Pema Pera: she spoke at a RL Kira weekend, ten years ago
    Pema Pera: was very interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: well, Gaia didn't quite catch on
    Bolonath Crystal: i think the soil was ripe for the advaita seeds, no matter if in hindu clothes or buddhist
    Calvino Rabeni: and I don't think the implications for acquiring genomes are fully appreciated
    Pema Pera: but mitochondria and in general lateral gene transfer in one way or another did catch on
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that's her main accomplishment
    Pema Pera: /nods at Bolo
    Calvino Rabeni: I would have thought she'd be a good "edge.org" person
    Pema Pera: could be, yes
    Pema Pera: it's sort of random who gets in there and who doesn't, it seems
    Pema Pera: perhaps she's seen as a bit too combative, I dont' know
    Calvino Rabeni: But isn't the mainstream still rather committed to the idea of gradual point mutations as the main source of variation?
    Pema Pera: I think it's seen as a mix, more and more
    Calvino Rabeni: Rather than wholesale acquisition of big chunks through e.g. retro-viruses
    Pema Pera: the very fact of our microbes having more genes than we ourselves has only been appreciated during the last few years
    Calvino Rabeni: It is surprising how conservative biology has been
    Bolonath Crystal: many people still think in the one-gene-one-character way
    Pema Pera: its' very much in flux, all these ideas

    Short infos about pab

    Bolonath Crystal: hello bhang
    Bhang Tyran: hello
    Pema Pera: in science, conservatism is not such a bad idea -- you don't want to change with fashions too quickly: better let new ideas really be tested thoroughly
    Pema Pera: hi Bhang!
    Bhang Tyran: may i listen?
    Pema Pera: please!
    Bolonath Crystal: of course :)
    Pema Pera: Bhang, we get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://wiki.playasbeing.org/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
    Bhang Tyran: of course not its a great idea
    Pema Pera: thanks!
    Pema Pera: is this your first time here, Bhang?
    Bhang Tyran: oh no i have popped in a few other times
    Pema Pera: ah, I'm sorry, I probably missed you then
    Bhang Tyran: had a good talk
    Pema Pera: (or don't remember, we have so many sessions every day :)
    Pema Pera: what was the topic?
    Bhang Tyran: hahaha is there a group i can join?
    Pema Pera: to visit here, there is no need to join a group
    Pema Pera: everything on our wiki is publicly readable
    Pema Pera: and we get together here four times a day
    Pema Pera: at 1 am 7 am 1 pm 7 pm SLT
    Pema Pera: we generally stay for an hour or so, but some sessions last (a lot) longer
    Pema Pera: there was one case where we went from one session to another . . . that was an exception :)
    Bhang Tyran: thats the only time i run across anyone here lol
    Calvino Rabeni: That happens occasionally, Pema
    Pema Pera: if you come at a random time, you probably have a 20% chance to wind up in a session . . .
    Bhang Tyran: seems so hahaha i got lucky today
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: have you tried the 9-seconds breaks that we work with in RL, by any chance yet?
    Bhang Tyran: 90 seconds of silence?
    Pema Pera: ah, that's what we do here
    Pema Pera: but the original idea was to take 9-seconds breaks, during the day in RL
    Pema Pera: (we get a little overboard here :-)
    Bolonath Crystal: *g*
    Bhang Tyran: hmm interesting
    Pema Pera: meditation for busy people, you could say
    Pema Pera: or you could say: integration before meditation
    Bhang Tyran: hahaha or stealing time
    Bolonath Crystal: i'm trying to have a 9 sec break every 9 sec ;)
    Pema Pera: if you take a few hours a day, and make 9-sec breaks every 15 minutes, it takes only one or two minutes a day
    Pema Pera: yes, a steal :-)
    Pema Pera: so nobody can say they don't have the time to do it
    Pema Pera: and surprisingly, it does seem to make a rather big difference
    Bhang Tyran: lol yeah i like the idea
    Pema Pera: just taking a dozen short breaks
    Pema Pera: shooting holes in your daily fixations on what you're in the middle of
    Pema Pera: letting some air in :)
    Pema Pera: (Bolo is doing the more advanced version :-)
    Pema Pera: so 9 seconds is like a pun: it just happens to be 1% of 900 seconds which go into a quarter of an hour
    Pema Pera: it's like paying a 1% time tax of your busy life
    Pema Pera: leaving 99% to be focused on what you have, and 1% to let go of that to see what you are
    Pema Pera: (Bolo pays 100% tax, is freed of early possessions :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Pema, couldn't we aim for 50/50?
    Bolonath Crystal: i try to keep the "viewpoint" from these 9 seconds while i interact with "real life". so the difference between break and rl is getting less and less
    Pema Pera: anything you like, Calvino!
    Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe 100/100 even ...
    Pema Pera: yes, kidding aside, sure Bolo, that's the idea!
    Bolonath Crystal: it seems to work
    Pema Pera: but you have to start somewhere, and the amazing thing is that 1% already seems to get you half-way or more
    Bolonath Crystal agrees
    Pema Pera: taking away the excuse "I have no time!"
    Bhang Tyran: i try to keep a tiny part of thought focused on calmness
    Pema Pera: leaving only "hmmm, I love speculating and I hate doing anything, just I refuse"
    Bhang Tyran: that way i dont have to stop what im doing hahaha
    Pema Pera: stopping can be very subtle
    Pema Pera: you can keep talking and taking a break from fixating on your own ideas
    Bolonath Crystal: as far as i see the main point is self-identification
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it's worth reminding people - you can be aware while doing *anything*, so it need not take ANY time to do so.
    Pema Pera: exactly, Calvino
    Pema Pera: I remember when I started the 9 seconds breaks, I found myself taking them as shorter and shorter, often less than one second,
    Bolonath Crystal: you drop the "havings" and focus on "being" - and you can stay calmly and in peace while the body and mind act
    Pema Pera: because so much happened already within one second!
    Bolonath Crystal: elements of life react, but the self stays unmoved
    Pema Pera nods at Bolo
    Pema Pera: nice talking with you all
    Pema Pera: see you next time
    Bhang Tyran: nice meeting you
    Bolonath Crystal: have a nice day, pema. om shanti
    Pema Pera: nice meeting you too, Bhang
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Pema
    Pema Pera: bfn
    Calvino Rabeni: I will wind down for the night also :)
    Calvino Rabeni: See you later !
    Bhang Tyran: ive been playing alot with time perception
    Bolonath Crystal: cu cal, om shanti :)
    Bhang Tyran: like make a mental note of how time feels to be going by
    Bhang Tyran: gn cal
    Bolonath Crystal: distraction seems to make time run, while concentration can bring it to a stop even
    Calvino Rabeni: That made me curious but, I'll look at the log
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye for now
    Bolonath Crystal: anyway i have to go soon
    Bhang Tyran: bye bye
    Bolonath Crystal: so we can spare that topic for a later meeting
    Bhang Tyran: good cal bolo safe travels
    Bolonath Crystal: time is a very fascinating process
    Bolonath Crystal: see you next time, bhang. om shanti :)

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