2010.07.16 19:00 - Bell!

    Table of contents
    1. 1.  

    The Guardian for this meeting was Lucinda Lavender. The comments are by Lucinda Lavender.

    Eliza Madrigal: And Hi Bruce too :))
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Hi Lucinda :))
    Eliza Madrigal: (lines reversed obviously)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi to Luci and Eliza.
    Eliza Madrigal: We look quite pretty tonight... all in blues :)
    Lucinda Lavender: we are the blue team...
    Bruce Mowbray: All four of us!
    Eliza Madrigal: hah, yes
    Lucinda Lavender: yes along with Blub...
    Bruce Mowbray thinks: I know another blue guy. . . (starts to chage shirt)
    Eliza Madrigal: Lucinda, is this your session now?
    Eliza Madrigal: another blue guy? :)
    Lucinda Lavender: Well I just claimed it.
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you
    Bruce Mowbray: [It might take a few minutes for you to see the new shirt -- and the new blue guy.
    Bruce Mowbray: (slow connection on this end)
    Lucinda Lavender: I I had offered to do it and it does perplex me that I hear no bell...
    Eliza Madrigal: yes its quite troublesome... have never heard of that happening at all
    Eliza Madrigal: so you hear no bell, and Ive heard no stories... :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I loved the phrase you used earlier though... being bellness :)
    Lucinda Lavender: What stories would interest you?
    Bruce Mowbray: The bell is actually working, though - I can hear it (when it ringd, that is).
    Bruce Mowbray: rings.
    Lucinda Lavender: well once again I will trust in Bruce...
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, and his dancing :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes good question re stories :) maybe we will write some
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes -- ha ha! And you can also trust the fountain, I think.
    Lucinda Lavender: ok
    Lucinda Lavender: Hmmm
    Bruce Mowbray: Have either of you been able to read Pem's second chapter?
    Bruce Mowbray: Pema's
    Lucinda Lavender: Not yet:(
    Eliza Madrigal: yes.... read it earlier....
    Eliza Madrigal: I thought captivating... so simple and yet potent
    Lucinda Lavender: curious if there are somethings that have caught your eye already there.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Calvino.
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi Call!
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello everyone :)
    Eliza Madrigal: One thing that I do love, is that he talks about staying 'wtih' appearances...
    Lucinda Lavender: oh...:)
    Eliza Madrigal: for me this seems particular, because so often we loftily want to be 'beyond appearances' or underneath them, etc... but...
    Calvino Rabeni: That makes good sense to me also
    Lucinda Lavender: staying there and perhaps relishing them?
    Lucinda Lavender: studying with relish
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... he writes:
    Eliza Madrigal: Instead of looking past what appears to its meaning or value or utility, we just stay with what appears. We listen to it, we let it talk to us. We let it express itself. We open ourselves for new vistas, each moment. When engaging with sheer appearance, we invite time to present a new world of appearance, each moment. "
    Lucinda Lavender: but no bun
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: so it has that sense of diving in :)
    Lucinda Lavender: so when it is a scary appearance we dive intoo...
    Eliza Madrigal: mmm, yes... seems so :)
    Lucinda Lavender: as a witness perhaps
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: especially then.
    Eliza Madrigal: I have faced some things recently... memories, dreams, etc... that once scared me
    Eliza Madrigal: revisiting them, I've found them not to hold the same power...
    Lucinda Lavender: nodding
    Eliza Madrigal: its like calling a bluff
    Eliza Madrigal: of your own :)
    Bruce Mowbray: It is a bit tricky, though -- It's not FACING DOWN the fear -- just "staying with it."
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes... not making war with appearances :)
    Bruce Mowbray: It's not an ego thing. . . it's just Being with the appearance, whatever it is.
    Lucinda Lavender: sometimes I ask...can this really be true...?
    Eliza Madrigal: "this" Lucinda?
    Bruce Mowbray: [1 minute, Lucinda]
    Lucinda Lavender: :)

    Lucinda Lavender: this as say an appearance...
    Eliza Madrigal: I lowered the fountain earlier.. this may not help Lucinda see the bell...
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, re 'true' appearance
    Bruce Mowbray: I will give Luci a visual cue.
    Lucinda Lavender: Cal may not know but I have no appearances around the bell these days
    Eliza Madrigal: appearance seems to point
    Eliza Madrigal: metaphors pointing to metaphors...
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, Cal... if you have some advice to offer, Lucinda can't hear the bell, or see the green text, etc
    Eliza Madrigal: She is bell-less as much as she is bell-ness :)
    Lucinda Lavender: I think mostly about feelings I was thinking
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: when I create some kind of conclusion with my mind or body then I ask the question about it's truth and also I say to my self there is more around the feeling/conclusion
    Lucinda Lavender: to find out
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, good question :) That is similar to a classic kira question as well! "What else is true?"
    Eliza Madrigal: So not rejecting what one is encountering...but making room?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, making room -- and also, not falling back on the old patterns of habituated reaction ...
    Lucinda Lavender: making room for the story that I desire
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: allowing the appearance to be what it is, without polluting or skewing it with habitual reactive thinking or emotion.
    Bruce Mowbray: staying "with" it -- making room for IT.
    Lucinda Lavender: yes not caving in to a smaller picture
    Bruce Mowbray: yeah - - often easier said than done, though.
    Bruce Mowbray: especially for old dogs like me.
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a very important principle, Bruce
    Calvino Rabeni: And well worth the effort :)
    Calvino Rabeni: People go to such lengths in other ways to bring new experiences to themselves, and not be trapped in the small circle of self.
    Calvino Rabeni: Having fresh new experiences is one way to do that
    Calvino Rabeni: And often quite pleasant and exciting
    Bruce Mowbray: Like bumping into butterflies?
    Calvino Rabeni: or in some other way fulfilling
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: or being their destination
    Bruce Mowbray: or like watching the millions of lights reflecting off city windows.
    Eliza Madrigal smiles at bumpint into butterfies... thinking of earlier seeing an incredible Monarch... size of a car ! :)
    Eliza Madrigal: *bumping
    Bruce Mowbray: while ships pass in the canal...
    Calvino Rabeni: I can't take credit for bumping into the butterfly while riding a bicycle downhill, but I can take credit for how I received that experience
    Bruce Mowbray: indeed, Cal.
    Eliza Madrigal: It was so obvious... and yet butterflies are so delicate and subtle...
    Bruce Mowbray: and thank you for sharing that.
    Calvino Rabeni: It's surprising there can actually be a collision
    Lucinda Lavender: I think about how butterflies are transformers for a while
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: I have a fascination with dragonflies also
    Lucinda Lavender: crawlers that become fliers
    Calvino Rabeni: somehow it's always exciting to encounter them
    Bruce Mowbray: metaphor s in flight.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... like a dream going by
    Lucinda Lavender: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: so powerful because so fleeting... transient
    Bruce Mowbray: Kiss the metaphor as she flies. . .
    Eliza Madrigal: many transparent as well...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: so I wonder if there are any poems about them?
    Bruce Mowbray: about butterflies?
    Bruce Mowbray: [1 minute warning, Luci]
    Lucinda Lavender: yes... perhaps by the Sufi fellows
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I remember one.
    Bruce Mowbray: a haiku.

    Bruce Mowbray: Not sure if these words are exactly right but:
    Bruce Mowbray: "White apple blossom
    Bruce Mowbray: Returning to the branch?
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh no, buterfly!"
    Bruce Mowbray: butterfiy (of course)
    Lucinda Lavender: nice
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi Pila!
    blues_003.jpgEliza Madrigal: Hi Pila and druth!
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi Druth
    Eliza Madrigal: Druth... QUITE an avatar
    Pila Mulligan: hi
    druth Vlodovic: hey
    Bruce Mowbray: Yo, Pila.
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Eliza Madrigal: say "Cheese"
    druth Vlodovic: :) experimenting with a new look
    Bruce Mowbray: Yo, druth!
    Pila Mulligan: druth, no offense but I'm going to sit by Bruce :)
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    druth Vlodovic: lol, I only bite if you ask nice
    Bruce Mowbray: (IT's JUST AN APPEARANCE, folk -- No panic!)
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Eliza Madrigal laughs
    Pila Mulligan: an interesting look
    Bruce Mowbray: [no butterfly, either!]
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: a butterly dreaming that he is a....
    Lucinda Lavender: nice teeth you have...
    Eliza Madrigal: hm....
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, must have a great dentist :
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: ... and hello everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila :)
    Pila Mulligan: I'd like to recommend an article -- http://www.motherearthnews.com/Real-...tes-A-Day.aspx
    Pila Mulligan: I've spent the afternoon playing with it and hope to bake a 5 minute loaf tomoorw
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, 'real food'
    Pila Mulligan: yes :)
    Pila Mulligan: a la Michael Pollan
    Pila Mulligan: and his book 'In Defense of Fodd"
    Pila Mulligan: Food*
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Pila... have saved the site
    Eliza Madrigal: Almost nothing better than the smell of fresh bread
    Bruce Mowbray: me too! yummy.
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Lucinda Lavender: pila at my house we keep the riasing dough on the water heater...but it is the only bread we eat any more...
    Pila Mulligan: I made half the recipe and it looks like plenty for three loaves
    Lucinda Lavender: a favorite recipe I guess
    Pila Mulligan: I'm hoping to get in a similar habit Lucinda
    Eliza Madrigal thinks Lucinda's house sounds like a lovely place... chickens, fresh bread rising on the water heater...
    Pila Mulligan: make it yourself
    Lucinda Lavender: when it sits for the hours it makes it seem very doable
    Lucinda Lavender: no rushing
    Pila Mulligan: Cal joins critter world :)
    Eliza Madrigal: uh oh.... calvino is shrinking... oh...
    Eliza Madrigal: Very cute avatar :) not scary at all
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Pila Mulligan: do you then refrigerate the excess dough Lucinda?
    Calvino Rabeni: grakkkkkkk !
    Lucinda Lavender: no
    Lucinda Lavender: maybe our recipe isslightly different
    Pila Mulligan: that is the unique part of the artcile I guess, keeping the dough fopr a weke or so and pulling off chunks t bake each day
    Pila Mulligan: week
    Pila Mulligan: refrigerated

    Lucinda Lavender: I see!
    Eliza Madrigal: bread and butterflies rising...
    Pila Mulligan: druth looks far less threateneing now
    Eliza Madrigal: haha, druth!
    Bruce Mowbray: speaking of dough...
    Lucinda Lavender: ?
    Lucinda Lavender: right ...now I get it
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Is that the "Dough Boy"? -- Pillsbury, Ghostbusters. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: awwww.....
    Calvino Rabeni: Lucinda, I think you are turning Japanese, you're look is a lot different now
    Bruce Mowbray: a levitating, turquoise dragon. . .
    Lucinda Lavender: well I was inspired ...lost the hair I made so had to go an eiasier route.
    Eliza Madrigal: the brightly colored kimono suits you well
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Lucinda Lavender: really makes me feel good...
    Lucinda Lavender: the color
    Lucinda Lavender: wish had to wear such things more often
    Bruce Mowbray: we're still singing the "blue's" tonight -- five of us, anyway.

    Bruce Mowbray: BELL!
    Pila Mulligan: hi Avastu
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Eliza Madrigal: Avastu!
    Pila Mulligan: this is the 90 second silence pause :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello there :))
    Bruce Mowbray whispers, Welcome, Avastu!
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi Avastu have you been here before?
    Avastu Maruti: hello again Eliza
    Avastu Maruti: yes, a couple of times
    Avastu Maruti smiles
    Lucinda Lavender: every 15 minutes we have a 90 second pause of sillence:)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles... Avastu has been part of PaB for a loooong time :)
    Lucinda Lavender: do you feel comfortable with being recorded?
    Lucinda Lavender: the record is kept at the chat log of the Play as Being Wiki
    Eliza Madrigal: though he may still have an answer for the question...
    Lucinda Lavender: oops..
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: I am new at the hosting and practicing my skills
    Eliza Madrigal: Not at all Lucinda, it has been a while
    Eliza Madrigal: Avastu, do you know any butterfly poems? :)
    Bruce Mowbray: [the Lindens require that these questions be asked - at least once.]
    Avastu Maruti: butterfly poems?
    Lucinda Lavender: yes?
    Lucinda Lavender: I would love to hear some
    Eliza Madrigal: we were trying to think of butterfly poems earlier :)
    Avastu Maruti: the butterfly takes upon the air
    Avastu Maruti: soaring in hope of discovery
    Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps a poem about bumping into a butterfly while riding downhill on your bicycle, Avastu?
    Avastu Maruti: looking for the open space of peace
    Avastu Maruti: while all the while it only had to spread it's own wings
    Eliza Madrigal: ::Beams::: Lovely!
    Bruce Mowbray: indeed - - sorry I interrupted it.
    Lucinda Lavender: thank you so much!
    Avastu Maruti: ha!
    Eliza Madrigal: "It was with you all the time" :)
    Bruce Mowbray: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´]
    Lucinda Lavender: clapping too!
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: What have you been up to Avastu?
    Avastu Maruti: nothing at all
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    druth Vlodovic: sry, I've got a thing, see you all later
    Eliza Madrigal: bye druth, see you again soon :)
    Lucinda Lavender: druth bye!
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, big guy (gal).
    Lucinda Lavender: nothing at All sounds different to me tonight
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal listens...
    Lucinda Lavender: Lucinda is thinking about how big All must be...
    Bruce Mowbray: [1 min to bell, Luci]

    Pila Mulligan: Avastu, one of your blogs seems to recommend against qualifying experiences as some being good and some bad ... isn't it part of life though to expereince favorable and unfavorable situations? (please pardon my speaking from one quick read and not from taking time to grok your comments:)
    Avastu Maruti: good and bad are relative judgements from mind alone
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Avastu Maruti: how do you know these judgements?
    Pila Mulligan: but it seems to me such judgments are common
    Pila Mulligan: mine, by feeling :)
    Avastu Maruti: granted they are common
    Avastu Maruti: are you aware of thought?
    Pila Mulligan: sometimes :)
    Pila Mulligan: I'm pretty vacaNT USUALLY
    Avastu Maruti: by sometimes you mean you don't always give attention to thought
    Pila Mulligan: pardon caps
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Avastu Maruti: yet whether thought is there or not, you are present and aware
    Pila Mulligan: sometimes :)
    Pila Mulligan: more or less aware that is
    Pila Mulligan: preferring more, but not able to sustain it
    Avastu Maruti: if you pause a thought, what is that openness which is present?
    Pila Mulligan: non-thought?
    Avastu Maruti: how do you know of non-thought?
    Pila Mulligan: like night follow day, by contrast
    Avastu Maruti: how do you know the contrast?
    Pila Mulligan: one is dark, one is light
    Avastu Maruti: how do you know that?
    Pila Mulligan: I do not reall yknow it, just feel it or see it
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Avastu Maruti: isn't feeling and seeing also called knowing?
    Pila Mulligan: not to me :)
    Avastu Maruti: ha!
    Pila Mulligan: I can see someone make something and not know what they are doing
    Avastu Maruti: in the pause of thought, are you not hearing the crickets, the hooting owl?
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Pila Mulligan: sesning them
    Pila Mulligan: sensing*
    Avastu Maruti: are they not coming and going in this presence?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Avastu Maruti: isn't thought very much the same?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Avastu Maruti: body sensations?
    Pila Mulligan: also chaning
    Pila Mulligan: changing*
    Pila Mulligan: coming and oging
    Pila Mulligan: rising and falling
    Avastu Maruti: even the idea or concept of Pila is another changing appearance
    Pila Mulligan: quite
    Avastu Maruti: that you know of in the same way
    Pila Mulligan: by senses
    Avastu Maruti: so everything you know rises and sets in this presence
    Pila Mulligan: so it seems
    Avastu Maruti: the presence isn't itself another thing rising and setting
    Pila Mulligan: it could be, but I cannot see it
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Avastu Maruti: because you ARE it
    Pila Mulligan: aye
    Pila Mulligan: tat tram asii
    Pila Mulligan: asi*
    Pila Mulligan: but I still reserve a sense of value in making some judgments
    Avastu Maruti: that "I" is the mind
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Avastu Maruti: mind rises and sets
    Pila Mulligan: with expereince :)
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Pila Mulligan: for example, the value of peace
    Pila Mulligan: I prefer the expereince of peace
    Avastu Maruti: peace is not an experience nor a state of mind
    Avastu Maruti: peace is your natural state
    Pila Mulligan: hopefully
    Pila Mulligan: then I prefer a natural state :)
    Avastu Maruti: peace, happiness or joy, and love - all words for one thing
    Avastu Maruti: You
    Avastu Maruti: that unconditional space or presence
    Avastu Maruti: just spread your wings
    Pila Mulligan: thanks for elucidating
    Avastu Maruti: (:
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: [1 minute to bell, Luci]

    Bruce Mowbray: "space" is a strange word -- sometime it means "what fills" (like the space between us here -- and sometimes it means "emptiness". . .
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Pila Mulligan: interesting observation Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: "space" -- distance between, measurable. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: or "space" -- emptiness, infinite, unmeasurable.
    Lucinda Lavender: seems to at least two things
    Bruce Mowbray: "A penetrating argument for Grace,
    Bruce Mowbray: That puny perforations offer space."
    Bruce Mowbray: (-- words of a GREAT poet! ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: There's an owl hooting in the tree outside my window. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: I will go out and observe the fingernail moon, now.
    Bruce Mowbray: May all be well - and have a fine weekend.
    Lucinda Lavender: thanks for all your help Bruce!
    Bruce Mowbray: NP -- My pleasure!
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye everyone.
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
    Pila Mulligan: bye Bruce
    Lucinda Lavender: Bye Bruce and the owl!
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Avastu. I hope we'll meet again soon.
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bruce :)
    Lucinda Lavender: in the space, is there change?
    Pila Mulligan: there seems to be
    Lucinda Lavender: or, is it unchanging?
    Pila Mulligan: :) a Big Question
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi Paradise!
    Pila Mulligan: hi Paradise

    Eliza Madrigal: Wow Paradise!
    Eliza Madrigal: That is a BEAUTIFUL dress!
    Lucinda Lavender: what a lovely lightfilled dress!
    Pila Mulligan: colorful outift :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at everyone
    Paradise Tennant: sorry about landing on you avastu :)
    Avastu Maruti: my pleasure
    Eliza Madrigal: wow, am finding so many reasons to take pics lately :)
    Lucinda Lavender: yes! me too
    Paradise Tennant: evening all :))) eliza ..pila .. cal luncinda :) avastu :)
    Avastu Maruti smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi, Paradise
    Pila Mulligan: I hope all's well with you Paradise
    Paradise Tennant: smiles a very big smile .. friday night ! my canine friend and I are eating a really good grilled cheese sandwich ..all is well .. ;))
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Pila Mulligan: just before you arrived Lucinda posed this idea: is there change? or, is it unchanging?
    Paradise Tennant: wow that is a great question :)
    Lucinda Lavender: I sense some change but in the space we were talking about ...it also seems unchnging.
    Lucinda Lavender: the presence that we are is unchanging.
    Pila Mulligan: here's one take (Lao Tse): The ten thousand things rise and fall while the Self watches their return. They grow and flourish and then return to the source. Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature. The way of nature is unchanging.
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: thanks Pila...
    Eliza Madrigal: beautiful, yes
    Pila Mulligan: and yet another from the same source: The space between heaven and Earth is like a bellows. The shape changes but not the form; The more it moves, the more it yields.
    Paradise Tennant: very beautiful ..
    Pila Mulligan: so Lao Tse seems to have tkaen both sides and said some change, some not
    Paradise Tennant: well like we live in a world of flickering shadows ..the flickering being the change :) but still just shadows :)
    Lucinda Lavender: from a place of presence I kmust bid you all good night
    Avastu Maruti: good night my friend
    Pila Mulligan: bye Lucinda
    Paradise Tennant: smiles good night lucinda nice to have seen you again :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Luci :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Avastu, I've been sympathetic to the "nondual" philosophy, but basically see no reliable way to know whether it is true - experiences can be illusory, as can inferences about reality
    Avastu Maruti: your own self is all the proof you need
    Lucinda Lavender: night Paradise, Pila, Eliza, Cal and Avastu.
    Eliza Madrigal: I must get going also... late for me and I've been online quite a bit today
    Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't seem proof-worthy - many say it doesnt even exist
    Avastu Maruti: do you know you exist?
    Eliza Madrigal: oooh... yes am going but you may like pema's recent writings on existence... hehe: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/1._Awareness
    Eliza Madrigal: Appreciate the discussion and am happy to see you again Avastu (and Pila, and Paradise, and Cal)
    Eliza Madrigal: Night :)
    Avastu Maruti: good night my friend
    Calvino Rabeni: DO I know I exist - frankly I seems a more dubious proposition than furniture
    Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza
    Avastu Maruti: furniture comes and goes in your perception
    Avastu Maruti: what you are never comes and goes
    Calvino Rabeni: SO they say - why should I take their word for it?
    Avastu Maruti: you shouldn't
    Avastu Maruti: find out for yourself what is the root of this sense "I AM"
    Calvino Rabeni: And if it can't be acertained by direct experience, or by infrerence, then why take a stand on that issue
    Paradise Tennant: hmm seems unfair to the chairs :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :) perhaps
    Avastu Maruti: it cannot be ascertained by experience because it is the present experiencing itself
    Calvino Rabeni: It cannot be ascertained in any way?
    Avastu Maruti: to know it you can only BE it
    Avastu Maruti: and you already are
    Calvino Rabeni: SO it is just a definition
    Avastu Maruti: definitions can only point to it
    Calvino Rabeni: That's what I mean by inference
    Avastu Maruti: are you present and aware, right now?
    Calvino Rabeni: It is likely to be a highly conceptualized and experiential answer
    Avastu Maruti: you can make it as such
    Avastu Maruti: but are you?
    Avastu Maruti: are you here
    Avastu Maruti: are you aware?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but what is that - I don't have a way to know
    Calvino Rabeni: I also think it is Friday = is it?
    Avastu Maruti: you don't have a way to know it objectively
    Avastu Maruti: as experience
    Avastu Maruti: but you know it anyway
    Avastu Maruti: it's undeniable
    Calvino Rabeni: Or just surmise it
    Avastu Maruti: you have to be here and aware to deny it
    Calvino Rabeni: as a convention of thought perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: No, not actually
    Avastu Maruti: you are running with concepts in avoidance of something very simple and obvious
    Paradise Tennant: smiles

    Calvino Rabeni: What is that but the "feeling of presence" and why should that be given some status of certainty?
    Avastu Maruti: it is pointing to something beyond identifications
    Avastu Maruti: beyond concepts
    Calvino Rabeni: Something?
    Pila Mulligan has to leave (but will let his avi sit so he can read the rest of the chat later on -- bye for now)
    Avastu Maruti: there is a presence - a subjectivity which is beyond even the supposed subjective body and mind
    Avastu Maruti: because body and mind are objective to you
    Avastu Maruti: as such it has no objective attributes
    Paradise Tennant: nature of mind
    Calvino Rabeni: How do you know that you know that?
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Avastu Maruti: I know nothing at all
    Calvino Rabeni: The mind is great at assumptions about its experiences
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: If you know nothing,why formulate non-dual philosophy and express it?
    Avastu Maruti: who formulates?
    Calvino Rabeni: I have no idea
    Avastu Maruti: I am what you are
    Paradise Tennant: is laughing now :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Fair enough
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps people can be distracted from some of their suffering by contemplating the idea of nonduality :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles like trying to work out a puzzle from the inside out
    Avastu Maruti smiles
    Avastu Maruti: it's a puzzle with only one piece
    Calvino Rabeni: hehehe
    Paradise Tennant: lol all connected
    Paradise Tennant: like the wisdom knot :)
    Calvino Rabeni: That is one easy puzzle
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Unless the puzzle is to take it apart again
    Avastu Maruti: that's the mind's job
    Calvino Rabeni: Apart, together, apart, together, easily amused by playing with the same puzzle over and over agaon
    Calvino Rabeni: Forgot the solution last time?
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: yep
    Paradise Tennant: searches deep in her no mind non dual non self .. .. errr and it was again :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiels
    Paradise Tennant: oopss smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: Your SL dress, Paradise, is kind of a good metaphor for "mind"
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: It has indistinct boundaries, is full of fractal structures that might or might not go inward to infinity
    Paradise Tennant: there are not really there
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: and we don't really know how it is constructed or what it is based on
    Calvino Rabeni: Love that dress :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Gotta get one :)
    Paradise Tennant: distinctly pretty though :) that I know .. maybe estetic sense .. is more profound
    Paradise Tennant: than we credit if for

    Calvino Rabeni: Anyway it is dinner time - I need to go ingest material objects and make them part of myself
    Calvino Rabeni: So I'll slip put during the pause; thanks and goodbye everyone :)
    Avastu Maruti: good night my friend
    Paradise Tennant: smiles thank you cal .. as always for the great conversation bon appetit
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night Avastu
    Paradise Tennant: you have an engaging profile avastu ..you have been studying reality deeply :)
    Avastu Maruti: the one who studies reality cannot be apart from reality itself
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: "i am what you are" very powerful thought
    Avastu Maruti: it is Love in expression
    Avastu Maruti: the expressions of Love are varied while Love itself is One
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: a most maligned .. state
    Paradise Tennant: confused with all manner of materail distraction .. obsession ..confusion
    Avastu Maruti: it is the mind which suffers states
    Paradise Tennant: but in truth a simple oneness
    Avastu Maruti: Love is an opening
    Paradise Tennant: to the true .. to the real
    Avastu Maruti: your own Self is the true and the real
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: but I have not self .. my trueness is beyond self no ?
    Avastu Maruti: yes, Self is pointing to that presence
    Paradise Tennant: welcome zon :)
    Zon Quar: hi all
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Paradise Tennant: have you been to pab before zon .. :)
    Zon Quar: many times
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: we are talking of love ..of oneness ..
    Zon Quar: ah..any conclusions ?
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: well ..we know we are not furniture :)
    Avastu Maruti: ha!
    Pila Mulligan: back
    Pila Mulligan: ... reading
    Zon Quar: if there is oneness...isnt love then self love ?
    Paradise Tennant: a very big self indeed :)

    Zon Quar: gtg, called, bye all
    Paradise Tennant: smiles bye zon
    Paradise Tennant: smiles I seem to have .. a small dog .. emergency ..going to have to step out for a moment pls excuse me :)
    Pila Mulligan: da dah ... looks like the Atman Question is sprouting now ("if there is oneness...isnt love then self love ? a very big self indeed :)")
    Pila Mulligan: I hope Blue recovers okay
    Pila Mulligan: I'm naive enough to suspect a few Big Questions circulate among our words regularly ... an especially common one being the Question of Self
    Pila Mulligan: and I like to phrase that question this way: is karma p[ersonal?
    Avastu Maruti: karma is completely personal
    Avastu Maruti: and the personal is false
    Pila Mulligan: yet some will deny that a self exists vis a vis the Self of ALL
    Avastu Maruti: put it any way you like
    Avastu Maruti: everyone knows the self
    Pila Mulligan: of a self
    Avastu Maruti: but what IS the self they do not know
    Pila Mulligan: the Atman Question :)
    Avastu Maruti: self is Self
    Avastu Maruti: Atman is Brahman
    Pila Mulligan: but is Self self?
    Pila Mulligan: to keep up, I'd say some karma is personal, and my idea of personal is not false
    Avastu Maruti: if by personal you mean that you are the only one
    Pila Mulligan: no, actually by personal I mean a unique perspecitve of expereice
    Pila Mulligan: but not the only one
    Avastu Maruti: any experience must be unique
    Avastu Maruti: relative
    Pila Mulligan: related indeed
    Avastu Maruti: is the subject of the experience itself another experience?
    Paradise Tennant: back ..reading
    Pila Mulligan: welcome back Paradise
    Pila Mulligan: that was quick
    Pila Mulligan: so far I've got the view that Atman is partly divisible into personal expereinces, and that the farthest an individual can reach in experience is the undivided Atman
    Pila Mulligan: so the expereincer is the expereince in that sense
    Avastu Maruti: the individual is the bondage
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: gotaa get some ice crea, :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles my dog is not quite as good as I thought was confusing I need a walk with I want more cheese :)
    Pila Mulligan: aha, communication
    Paradise Tennant: and what is freedom :)
    Pila Mulligan: it is easier for me to say what independence is
    Pila Mulligan: I'm not sure we are free
    Pila Mulligan: or can be
    Pila Mulligan: broaly we, our free will is circumscribed but our judgment can be independent
    Pila Mulligan: broadly*
    Paradise Tennant: lol means stepping out the we the me ..the I and swooshing into the question mark :) life as punctuation !
    Pila Mulligan: again, relative to our bonds, to recylce Avastu's idea
    Avastu Maruti: taking yourself to be born, to be limited in space and time, is the only bondage
    Pila Mulligan: ;
    Avastu Maruti: you refer falsely to an appearance called body and mind
    Pila Mulligan: is there life before birth?
    Avastu Maruti: as appearance it is experience to you
    Avastu Maruti: Life is
    Avastu Maruti: the body and mind are expressions of Life
    Pila Mulligan: and after death?
    Avastu Maruti: you weren't born - you are Life itself
    Avastu Maruti: the body appears to you
    Avastu Maruti: in you
    Avastu Maruti: as you
    Pila Mulligan: what appears withut a body?
    Avastu Maruti: nothing
    Pila Mulligan: aha, so death is The End?
    Avastu Maruti: the end of what?
    Pila Mulligan: something
    Avastu Maruti: of the experience
    Pila Mulligan: yes, the expereince?
    Pila Mulligan: experience ends at death?

    Paradise Tennant: smiles and wonders if there was a beginning :)
    Avastu Maruti: experience ends each day
    Pila Mulligan: with sleep?
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Pila Mulligan: what then about dreams?
    Avastu Maruti: experience coming back
    Pila Mulligan: or continuing?
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Avastu Maruti: we call that consciousness
    Pila Mulligan: so then perhpas consciousness does not end at death or begin at birth
    Avastu Maruti: we might say Life is experiencing itself through a human experience
    Pila Mulligan: the God was Lonely approach
    Avastu Maruti: birth and death are ideas in consciousness
    Avastu Maruti: without consciousness you have no ideas nor experiences
    Pila Mulligan: thereby conscousness is defined
    Avastu Maruti: yes - it is an object of knowledge
    Paradise Tennant: maybe there are levels of consciousness than we can percieve .'
    Paradise Tennant: and others we cannot
    Pila Mulligan: I am sure I do not see them all p
    Pila Mulligan: aradise
    Avastu Maruti: you can have it any way you like
    Paradise Tennant: smiles yes
    Pila Mulligan: I actually would not want to get into some of them :)
    Avastu Maruti: various levels of consciousness can be had
    Paradise Tennant: holding out for chair existence .. chair reality life living as chair :)
    Avastu Maruti: but who is it that experiences them?
    Pila Mulligan: Paradise, Avatsu and Pila are among those experiencing
    Avastu Maruti: Paradise, Avastu and Pila are experiences
    Pila Mulligan: ok
    Paradise Tennant: the big ? the experiencer of all things .. the .. beyond concept .. beyond .. the beyond
    Pila Mulligan: agreeable :)
    Pila Mulligan: Atman
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Pila Mulligan: gate gate paragate
    Avastu Maruti: you are present and aware
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Avastu Maruti: that presence of awareness is Atman
    Avastu Maruti: the self
    Avastu Maruti: your self
    Paradise Tennant: our self
    Avastu Maruti smiles
    Pila Mulligan: and this is the sticking point with Buddhist dialogue :)
    Pila Mulligan: PAradise my freind we are entering good surf
    Pila Mulligan: but catching different waves
    Pila Mulligan: Buddhsim seems to like One Self
    Paradise Tennant: high fives you :)
    Avastu Maruti: waves are all ocean, expressing itself
    Pila Mulligan: shaka
    Pila Mulligan: to extend Avastu's ideaOcean does not change :)
    Avastu Maruti: all hinges on the sense of I AM
    Avastu Maruti: it is both a barrier and a bridge
    Paradise Tennant: how a bridge?
    Pila Mulligan: hi Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
    Paradise Tennant: hiya hokon gtsy :)
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^
    Pila Mulligan: what's new in virtue ethics?
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Hokon Cazalet: not much :Þ
    Avastu Maruti: I AM , as a thought, is false - the mind can only attempt at quantifying that sense of being
    Avastu Maruti: but that presence to which the words I AM point is the only reality
    Avastu Maruti: the basis for appearance itself
    Paradise Tennant: so the prescence that can perceive the appearances which are not real .. is real :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Avastu Maruti: an appearance is a form of something
    Avastu Maruti: like gold chain is a name and form of gold
    Avastu Maruti: the chain wants to find Gold
    Avastu Maruti: it searches everywhere and has lots of concepts
    Pila Mulligan: an appearance may perhaps even be a misercetion of somethinig
    Avastu Maruti: levels of Gold
    Pila Mulligan: fools gold
    Pila Mulligan: mieperception*
    Avastu Maruti: but all the while chain is only an appearance of Gold
    Pila Mulligan: mis*
    Avastu Maruti: chain cannot seek nor find
    Hokon Cazalet: what if appearance is real, but only fragments of the real
    Avastu Maruti: for there really is no such thing as chain apart from an appearance or form of gold
    Paradise Tennant: smiles watches her fingers type thinking they are only the appearance of fingers :) lol
    Pila Mulligan: but can the appearance then vary in degrees of consistency with its essential form?
    Avastu Maruti: appearance IS the real

    Pila Mulligan: aha
    Avastu Maruti: but not AS appearance
    Avastu Maruti: taking appearance as absolute is taking reality as separate
    Avastu Maruti: we must ask - what IS it?
    Paradise Tennant: from being
    Pila Mulligan: so appearance can be distinguishable from reality
    Pila Mulligan: or even from being
    Avastu Maruti: appearance IS reality in essence
    Avastu Maruti: but not AS appearance
    Hokon Cazalet: well appearnces are sensations, sensations we judge to be about something out there
    Avastu Maruti: AS a chain, as a rock
    Avastu Maruti: what IS Chain, what IS rock?
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Avastu Maruti: what is furniture... :)
    Pila Mulligan: what is ice cream :)
    Avastu Maruti: what is cheese?
    Avastu Maruti: we can only apply our knowledge of appearance
    Avastu Maruti: and then take that appearance or form or expression AS absolute
    Avastu Maruti: what is it an expression OF?
    Hokon Cazalet: but we can see things beyond appearances, The Chain is never seen, only examples of it are seen
    Hokon Cazalet: sorry, we can infer*
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Hokon Cazalet: we dont see Gold, but only examples of gold
    Avastu Maruti: in fact you only ever see Gold
    Hokon Cazalet: do we? the gold we see decays, turns into other things
    Avastu Maruti: the goldsmith doesn't care for the ornaments, only the gold
    Hokon Cazalet: gold can be mixed with others things
    Avastu Maruti: of course
    Avastu Maruti: because gold is not the essence
    Avastu Maruti: chain/gold is a metaphor
    Hokon Cazalet: so a metaphor for what?
    Avastu Maruti: Life
    Avastu Maruti: Reality
    Avastu Maruti: Being
    Avastu Maruti: You
    Pila Mulligan: how about God, is God a metaphor?
    Avastu Maruti: all words are concepts
    Hokon Cazalet: how does one see the Form behind the appearances?
    Hokon Cazalet: the Idea
    Avastu Maruti: what is your idea of God?
    Pila Mulligan: ambiguous
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Pila Mulligan: probaly a plytheistic pantheon
    Pila Mulligan: plo*
    Pila Mulligan: multiple forms
    Hokon Cazalet: im into neoplatonic views of God
    Pila Mulligan: giving rise to 10,000 appearances
    Avastu Maruti: giving rise, or being the essence of the 10,000 appearances?
    Pila Mulligan: either
    Pila Mulligan: or the latter if poreferred )
    Pila Mulligan: the quintessence even
    Avastu Maruti: we might say there isn't just one God, there is only God
    Avastu Maruti: if that is so, then the world, body and thoughts are only of God
    Paradise Tennant: lol thinks my dog/ god is divine and practises daily worship :)
    Hokon Cazalet: not all is God, physical things decay
    Pila Mulligan: yea dog
    Avastu Maruti: where do they go?
    Hokon Cazalet: they are metaphors, shadows
    Pila Mulligan: hi adoro
    Avastu Maruti: what is the power by which they are created and decay?
    Hokon Cazalet: they shadow vanishes for a while, as the Thing that creates them moves elsewhere to other azppearances
    adoro Rhapsody: hi
    Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
    Paradise Tennant: hiya adoro
    Avastu Maruti: so there is some "thing" which is apart from things and acts upon them?
    Paradise Tennant: welcome
    Paradise Tennant: have you been to pab before ;)
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    adoro Rhapsody: thnx
    adoro Rhapsody: yes this is fifth time
    adoro Rhapsody: to pab
    Paradise Tennant: ahh kk :)
    Hokon Cazalet: we can imagine the Ideal Beings as without shadows, but cannot imagine shadows with the Ideals
    Paradise Tennant: we are talking of .. god .. being ..love .. the true and furniture :)
    Hokon Cazalet: so yes they are separate in one sense, in another, not
    Avastu Maruti: you are the Ideal itself
    Hokon Cazalet: am i? i am ignorant of many things, the ideal person would be omniscient
    Avastu Maruti: look into the sense and certainty of I AM
    adoro Rhapsody: shadow are only because of sun
    Hokon Cazalet: i am also a mere shadow
    Hokon Cazalet: i am is a logical function of the ego, or a sensual presence of one's lived-life
    adoro Rhapsody: no light no shadow
    Avastu Maruti: the ideal person is a concept
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Pila Mulligan: is virtue simply an idea?
    Hokon Cazalet: concepts are about ideals
    Avastu Maruti: omniscience simply means all-knowing
    adoro Rhapsody: and concepts dont work
    Avastu Maruti: are you not that already?
    Hokon Cazalet: no, its self-evident
    Hokon Cazalet: i do not know quantum physics, ergo, i am not omnioscient
    Avastu Maruti: you are the self-evidence
    Avastu Maruti: ha!
    Hokon Cazalet: yes i am the basis of self-evidence
    Paradise Tennant: if I am all knowing I seem to have temporary amnesia :)
    Avastu Maruti: must you know all relative knowledge?
    Hokon Cazalet: an archetypal person would have no privation of his essence, knowing is part of man
    Avastu Maruti: does God know how to juggle?
    Hokon Cazalet: the traditional God would
    Avastu Maruti: ha!
    Pila Mulligan: seems to do it alot
    Paradise Tennant: smiles .. at least how to make a juggler :)
    Hokon Cazalet: but im not into the traditional God =)
    Pila Mulligan: juggle :)
    Avastu Maruti: man appears IN knowing
    Avastu Maruti: as does everything
    adoro Rhapsody: knowing appears in man
    Avastu Maruti: all you truly know is a changing field of experience which you assign names
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Hokon Cazalet: i know more, i know some of the essential features of that field of experiences

    Avastu Maruti: the body is a concept for that field
    Avastu Maruti: as is mind
    adoro Rhapsody: and other assign other names
    adoro Rhapsody: to it
    Avastu Maruti: in fact you know nothing truly of a body outside of your concepts
    Hokon Cazalet: maybe, maybe not
    adoro Rhapsody: corect
    Hokon Cazalet: what is a body?
    adoro Rhapsody: u r a body
    Avastu Maruti: that's what you believe
    Hokon Cazalet: what is a body?
    Avastu Maruti: but is it so in direct experience?
    Paradise Tennant: smiles knows her perception of her body is sleepy and bids everyone a fond good night . thank you all for the wonderful conversation :)
    adoro Rhapsody: we call it a body
    Avastu Maruti: good night my friend
    Pila Mulligan: bye Paradise
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe bye paradise
    Avastu Maruti: yes, you call it a body
    adoro Rhapsody: night
    Paradise Tennant: smiles night all :)
    adoro Rhapsody: mmm
    Avastu Maruti: do you truly know with absolute certainty what it is?
    Hokon Cazalet: maybe i dont
    adoro Rhapsody: no of course not
    Avastu Maruti: and of the mind?
    Hokon Cazalet: hence i ask, what is a body, or more, what is my body?
    Pila Mulligan: hi Carl
    Avastu Maruti: you know changing patterns
    adoro Rhapsody: hi carl
    Carl Greymoon: AVAS--- nothing is 100% certain, so we proceed with limited information
    Hokon Cazalet: and there is a persistence behind the changes
    Pila Mulligan: a related question might be something like what s health?
    Carl Greymoon: hello ADORO
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Hokon Cazalet: my Ego perceives these changes, thus it must persist
    Avastu Maruti: there is a persistence behind the changes
    Avastu Maruti: that persistence is you
    Hokon Cazalet: and an external world persists, as these changes do not originate from myself
    adoro Rhapsody: its nature
    Avastu Maruti: you project the existence of an external world due to inadvertence
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah, ego and cosmos
    Hokon Cazalet: project? well let us explore
    Carl Greymoon: the EGO is this verbal feedback loop about ourselves.. that evolves when we learn language-- Helen Keller figured this out when she learned the touch-sign for "water"
    Hokon Cazalet: what is the difference, between imagination and perception?
    Avastu Maruti: no difference
    Hokon Cazalet: no, there is, perception is seeing another thing; imagination is seeing what your mind made
    Avastu Maruti: you imagine that you perceive
    Hokon Cazalet: maybe we never have perceptions
    adoro Rhapsody: imagine perception
    Avastu Maruti: there is no other thing
    Hokon Cazalet: ok so youd argue, we never have perceptions, just imaginations we confuse as perceptions
    Avastu Maruti: perceptions and perceiving are the same reality
    Carl Greymoon: we have varying degrees of confidence about SOME things, ideas and people
    Hokon Cazalet: ok ill use other terms
    Hokon Cazalet: since this is getting confused
    adoro Rhapsody: perceptions r things perceiving is anaction
    Hokon Cazalet: we have imagination, then the possibility of seeing-another
    Avastu Maruti: the only confusion is that you exist as a separate thing
    Hokon Cazalet: well lets humor this inquiry, if we cannot know what imagiation vs. seeing-another is, we cant say we have either of them
    Carl Greymoon: AVA are you explaining Vedanta Hinduism ?
    Hokon Cazalet: nor can we know if we see an external world or not
    Avastu Maruti: who has the perception or imagination?
    adoro Rhapsody: but we call it external
    Hokon Cazalet: not important here
    Avastu Maruti: are you a person, an entity abiding in a body?
    Avastu Maruti: have you ever investigated that idea?
    adoro Rhapsody: god only knows
    Hokon Cazalet: i am merely wanting to know what they are, in itself, so i can judge, if i see an external world, or if it is actually a projection
    Hokon Cazalet: yes i have
    Avastu Maruti: and did you find a little person abiding in the head?
    Hokon Cazalet: one case, my sense of my body shifted from being my human flesh to being time itself =)
    Carl Greymoon: AVA WE ARE our body-- a whirlpool that is made of chemicals and information... stuff going in and out
    adoro Rhapsody: u r projecting your own world to the external world
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Hokon Cazalet: lets stick to the issue of perception vs imagination, as this is key
    Avastu Maruti: so the idea of yourself as limited fell away
    Pila Mulligan: my little person is abiding in the belly :)
    Carl Greymoon: Hoken-- color outside the lins
    Carl Greymoon: lines
    Hokon Cazalet: you keep saying we project reality, yet we lack the tools to even judge if this is true or false
    Hokon Cazalet: im trying to make those tools, now
    Carl Greymoon: AVA ever done shrooms?
    Avastu Maruti: you need not judge it either way, my friend
    Hokon Cazalet: here and now
    Avastu Maruti: only look for yourself
    Avastu Maruti: no words can possibly express it
    Hokon Cazalet: well my concern is truth
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: sorry
    Hokon Cazalet: then stop talking about it :Þ
    Avastu Maruti: stop talking about what?
    Hokon Cazalet: good =)
    adoro Rhapsody: or bad
    Carl Greymoon: Alan Watts in THE TABOO ON KNOWING WHO YOUR ARE explained all of this stuff pretty well
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Pila Mulligan: this has been an interesting evening of thoughts and ideas, thanks -- and bye foronw


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