2010.07.18 01:00 - life to be

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    Moon Fargis: good morning cal
    Moon Fargis: morning qt
    Stargate Tone: good morning Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Good morning, Moon, Stargate :)
    Qt Core: hi all, good morning
    Moon Fargis: how late is it for you guys ?
    Moon Fargis: or early ?
    Moon Fargis: its 10 in the morning here
    Qt Core: same here,
    Stargate Tone: good morning Qt
    Qt Core: and world will go crazy as usual in a little less than an hour ;-)
    Stargate Tone: ohhh
    Stargate Tone: why ?
    Qt Core: that's why i like these sunday session, relazing and mostly quiet
    Qt Core: just the usual, things toi do, lunch to cook
    Stargate Tone: ahh *
    Moon Fargis: well cooking is fun :)
    Qt Core: yes, but not so much in this heat
    Stargate Tone: specially when it's no must
    Moon Fargis: and well one can make good soups in less then 15 minutes
    Moon Fargis: yes :)
    Moon Fargis: hmm almost made spider tea now
    Stargate Tone: but do that for example 40 year's twice a day...
    Stargate Tone: looool
    Moon Fargis: good i noticed her swimming in the water cooker
    Stargate Tone: ah yes; and not meaning as the professon; just home cooking
    Qt Core: i love to cook so it make me sad as most of the time i don't have the time or i'm not on the mood so i end making something to eat, not cooking
    Stargate Tone: good morning Bert
    Moon Fargis: morning bert
    Moon Fargis: well
    Moon Fargis: cook yourself a tea :)
    Stargate Tone: made this morning tea to my son :)****
    Moon Fargis: ahh and he drank it ?
    Stargate Tone: *yes*
    Qt Core: maybe when temps go under 20C
    Bertram Jacobus: good morning everybody :-)
    Moon Fargis: ah a good tea is also nice on hot days
    Stargate Tone: 28 here
    Qt Core: hi bert, good morning
    Calvino Rabeni: Good morning Bert
    Stargate Tone: *yes*
    Moon Fargis: peppermint tea, sparemint tea, of fresh harvested plants
    Stargate Tone: less ppl have option to this fresh harvested tea
    Stargate Tone: btw
    Qt Core: i'm not a tea fan really
    Stargate Tone: this my special RL friend Pekka, had an interested idea...
    Calvino Rabeni: It's nice to keep track of where things grow
    Stargate Tone: **
    Stargate Tone: and that brought that Pekka's idea to my mind now
    Stargate Tone: as he thought that in case all of the ppl got huge much money, the world would go to bad chaos, cuz not enough people would want to work
    Stargate Tone: to my mind it occured at first that there would food end soon
    Stargate Tone: cuz much more people live in the cities; wouldn't even know how to plant and so
    Stargate Tone: much there's a hobby to fish, but other kind of food...
    Calvino Rabeni: Today I ate pizza, which is a break from eating garden food from behind the house :)
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Stargate Tone: but think cities with tens of million of people; nobody would know how to plant and harvest....
    Moon Fargis: ahyes
    Moon Fargis: where should they know from ?
    Qt Core: well, most of pizza ingredients may come from the garden ... for a vegetarian one
    Moon Fargis: grown up in a shelter of supermarkets
    Stargate Tone: and how have these people been treated who's worked for the food ...
    Moon Fargis: i wont be sure of that on todays pizzas they sold :)
    Moon Fargis: even the ceese is not real anymore on most of them
    Moon Fargis: cheese
    Calvino Rabeni: Not necessarily - urban farming is possible and many people are learning
    Qt Core: in several of our oarks there are areas where retired people can grow their veggies
    Qt Core: oarks=parks
    Bertram Jacobus: hi yaku
    Moon Fargis: morning yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: guten morgen
    Qt Core: hi Yaku
    Stargate Tone: and yes; then think for example our country, where 'nothing but anger grows'
    Moon Fargis: :)
    Stargate Tone: guten morgen Yaku
    Stargate Tone: there's only few plants we can grow enough for our own food
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hyvää huomenta star :)
    Stargate Tone: ohhhhhhh
    Calvino Rabeni: There are lots of community gardens here, and some of the parks now have cultivated areas
    Stargate Tone: **
    Calvino Rabeni: People are trying to learn how to do it before the system crashes
    Stargate Tone: ah yes; in Finnland there's also builded such 'ansari', in which any plants can grow
    Stargate Tone: but even they dont give enough for all of the people; we must by huge much from foreigne countries
    Stargate Tone: as we ---with this Pekka---know that 'man's' one base need is to work
    Stargate Tone: but to do what kind of work...that most of the ppl in the world already does completely different work than to product food supplies
    Stargate Tone: even also them men may play with them toys who's got big farms and so
    Stargate Tone: meaning that there's not so much physical work anymore
    Stargate Tone: but them 'toys' to play with :)***
    Calvino Rabeni: I wonder how well working with computers and information, can satisfy that base need for work?
    Stargate Tone: seems to satisfy few million people
    Moon Fargis: hmm i wouldnt say work is a base need
    Moon Fargis: of the human mind
    Qt Core: and most of the young more that not knowing how don't want to be farmer, they got university degree, they can dirt their hands!
    Moon Fargis: but to play is a base need :)
    Stargate Tone: ok; should it be said that to create is the base need
    Moon Fargis: ahyes
    Moon Fargis: fits better
    Calvino Rabeni: All play and no work ...?
    Stargate Tone: but as me...who cannot create anything, I speak of work...
    Qt Core: sadly plants given to me or just in my presence for long just die
    Moon Fargis: see, works is a base need of society
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, a base need to create ... but what?
    Moon Fargis: work
    Stargate Tone: Qt; I've had the same prob...untill I though that it's not a prob...
    Calvino Rabeni: I think there needs to be a balance between purposeful and purposeless creation - work and play
    Moon Fargis: morning hana
    Bertram Jacobus: hey hana ! :-)
    Qt Core: hi hana
    Yakuzza Lethecus: morning hana
    Stargate Tone: instead I thought that them plants comes wise soon being with me and wanna die for to get more independed life form :)***
    Qt Core: it's not a problem for me too, i just look at plants from a distance now ;-)
    Stargate Tone: Hello Hana :)***
    Hana Furlough: good morning all
    Bertram Jacobus: aren´t you in the us and so it is late night where you are hana ? ...
    Stargate Tone: (loves to buy flower to others :)***)
    Hana Furlough: no i'm in europe, so it's morning for me too
    Bertram Jacobus: ah okay ...
    Moon Fargis: sunday morning with a cup of tea in the flowers :)
    Stargate Tone: so Cal is the only one having late now
    Stargate Tone: and no spider :)***
    Moon Fargis: :)
    Moon Fargis: ohh cant be.. i have no spider in my inventory
    Calvino Rabeni: Spiders can't get into my kettle, but I found a huge one near it
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Stargate Tone: Hi susan
    Qt Core: Hi Susan
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey susan
    Moon Fargis: morning susan
    Hana Furlough: Hi Susan
    Susan Aloix: Hi Star....Hi Qt :)
    Susan Aloix: Hey Yaku...thanks for the invite :)
    Susan Aloix: Hi Hana :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hi susan , now also here , not only IM :o)
    Susan Aloix: Hello and thanks for letting me know about the silence Bertram :)
    Stargate Tone: ->we have a bit pondered ppl's attitude/need to work
    Bertram Jacobus: sure - a pleasure susan ! ty for reacting so friendly :-)
    Stargate Tone: based on thought if all would have money enough that there wouldn't be need to work for the money
    Susan Aloix: My pleasure Bertram :)
    Moon Fargis: hmm like in startrek universe
    Qt Core: :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, there are enough goods in the world for all to live good - if it only were better allocated ! (little sigh) ...
    Susan Aloix: (brb laptop overheating)
    Calvino Rabeni: Not to worry, Star - the work needs to be done regardless of the money supply
    Qt Core: in the beginning of XX century it was tought that at the end of the century poeple would have to work only a couple hours a day
    Moon Fargis: woh
    Calvino Rabeni: and if there's a lot of money it is called inflation, and the money isn't worth as much
    Qt Core: and the remaining hours could be used for curing oneself mind and or body
    Calvino Rabeni: RightQT - interesting - it COULD have happened, but did not - why?
    Susan Aloix: bk
    Qt Core: greed ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but the startrek universe works without money :)
    Bertram Jacobus: because of the wrong allocation and the greed of the powerful ones ... all such ... the greed of humans ...
    Qt Core: people wanting immediate satisfaction/reward
    Calvino Rabeni: We don't live in the startrek fantasy universe.. this one works differently :)
    Qt Core: more like the morror trek universe ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Greed?
    Qt Core: mirror
    Yakuzza Lethecus: actually, it was only the federation that worked without money, i also liked the ferengi *geekish looking*
    Stargate Tone: ah; I dont worry *
    Calvino Rabeni: Well for example, if the factories still made the cars of 100 years ago they would cost 250 euros
    Calvino Rabeni: but the cars are 20 times as complex
    Calvino Rabeni: the thing they didn't figure, is that the standard of living goes up just as much as the ability to produce
    Moon Fargis: and uses 20 times more fuel :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and people want that
    Calvino Rabeni: quality of life, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure "greed" is a good word for it
    Stargate Tone: ah yes; sure most of the work is done for the wanted product *and food is need for all
    Stargate Tone: but just the base fantasy...
    Stargate Tone: well; so huge much there's work done also for greed...
    Hana Furlough: great discussion... but i must run off again
    Hana Furlough: have a great day everyone
    Qt Core: bye hana
    Stargate Tone: enjoy Ur day Hana :)***
    Susan Aloix: bye hana :)
    Bertram Jacobus: bye hana
    Qt Core: luckily my dictionar is scarce for bad words like greed, cal ;-) maybe there is one vbetter suited
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye hana
    Calvino Rabeni: Desire perhaps
    Yakuzza Lethecus: was the ,,playasbeinghere" group only for guardians ?
    Bertram Jacobus: what is the difference between desire and greed ?
    Calvino Rabeni: People can't tell the difference between bigger life of love, and bigger life of having a huge house
    Bertram Jacobus: i think so yaku
    Stargate Tone: greed is to desire such that is not genuinly needed
    Calvino Rabeni: DO you desire more fulfillment, more love, greater understanding, etc.?
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure
    Stargate Tone: I'm told that PaB is open for all
    Calvino Rabeni: But if someone doesn't understand what they need?
    Calvino Rabeni: Then they don't have an experience of greed
    Calvino Rabeni: but of desire
    Stargate Tone: well; many people have come to star having some need, which has showen out not to be the true need after a short conversation
    Stargate Tone: so I'de answer to you Qt that there's huge much 'needs' in people's mind that they dont understand their true needs for that fauls thought
    Qt Core: agreed
    Stargate Tone: btw Bert; why U asked so of PaB ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Desires are infinite - people "want" the whole universe
    Bertram Jacobus: yaku asked star ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: not me
    Bertram Jacobus: i only answered
    Moon Fargis: hehe
    Moon Fargis: maybe this video fits now :
    Calvino Rabeni: @yaku, yes, that SL group is for the guardians
    Moon Fargis: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3f...ful-life_music
    Stargate Tone: ah sry
    Bertram Jacobus: np ;-)
    Susan Aloix: some people want a tiny world...the one in front of their noses
    Stargate Tone: Cal...star is now a bit confused...
    Bertram Jacobus: interesting susan - a long time i didn´t meet such a view not anymore - or didn´t see such ...
    Calvino Rabeni: EIther they see infinity in that tiny workd in front of their nose, or their "wanter" is broken
    Calvino Rabeni: *world
    Bertram Jacobus: - not
    Susan Aloix: some people just want a life where they do not ponder life and death...are not exposed to their possibilities....let alone the cosmos
    Calvino Rabeni: Confused, Star?
    Stargate Tone: Hello Darren :)*
    Darren Islar: hi everyone :)
    Stargate Tone: just started to doubt if I have right to be here...
    Moon Fargis: susan: yes but thats exactly what causes such emotions like, greed, egoism and worser
    Stargate Tone: cuz I'm no guardian...
    Qt Core: hi Darren
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey darren
    Darren Islar: you don't need to be, do you?
    Calvino Rabeni: You have the right to be here, surely :)
    Darren Islar: to be here I mean
    Moon Fargis: people dont want to care just about themself and their little world they live in
    Moon Fargis: morning darren
    Calvino Rabeni: True moon
    Susan Aloix: yes calvino....infinity in that tiny world......however its usually reduced to just a few concerns.....an impulse to try and have the illusion of control over ones life?
    Stargate Tone: sorry...
    Stargate Tone: I'm starting to feel even more that I'm not accepted here
    Darren Islar: (it is alwasy a challenge to find a seat in one of Moon's sessions :))
    Stargate Tone: so
    Calvino Rabeni: the illusion of control is linked to getting needs fulfilled
    Stargate Tone: hoping to see friends soon again, but must leave PaV
    Stargate Tone: PaB
    Susan Aloix: yes...and those needs are usually at the cost of suppressing many spiritual ones in our western impoverished paradigm
    Bertram Jacobus: "bit" late : hi darren ! (sry - was distracted) ... ;-)
    Susan Aloix: Hello Darren :)
    Darren Islar: hi Susan
    Calvino Rabeni: I see your point, Susan
    Darren Islar: hi Bert :)
    Susan Aloix: i'd like more clarity around my spiritual needs........meditation seems to assist...but mostly in the dark on those needs
    Moon Fargis: the dark ? you mean the needs you dont see?
    Susan Aloix: Yeah.....how does one work out their spiritual needs?
    Darren Islar: like you feel them but don't know how to anticipate on them?
    Moon Fargis: ahh yes the human mankind is suffering of knowledge that there is "more" then just work, food and sleep
    Moon Fargis: and they try to fill in this empty feeling of knowledge with more attachments more richness, more stuff to fil their life
    Darren Islar: but I think I understand your feeling
    Moon Fargis: and sufffer even more cus they didnt filled the missing hole, then they go to church and let themself tell what they are missing
    Susan Aloix: well ....i think we have spiritual needs. Things like. Attachment to something beyond our creaturelyness.
    Susan Aloix: Yes Moon...Very much so!!
    Darren Islar: it is like walking in the dark, knowing it is out there, able to connect to, but you don't know where
    Susan Aloix: But churches leave me empty.
    Moon Fargis: yes cus its not your spiritual need, there is no universal answer
    Susan Aloix: I actually intellectualise them I think Darren. I feel the *morethan my ego self*...but i don't know how one goes about enriching that experience.
    Moon Fargis: people want o know about death and want to be free of their fears for it, that most of them understand of spirituality, but thats wrong, its just a illusion
    Moon Fargis: brb phone :)
    Susan Aloix: (apologies i didnt see the silence instruction just then)
    Susan Aloix: Darren *walking in the dark knowing its out there*...hmm yes nice way of putting it
    Darren Islar: in the way we are brought up we don't learn to make those connections
    Darren Islar: so we are left out in the dark to find them for ourselves
    Qt Core: time to go, bye all
    Bertram Jacobus: bye qt ...
    Darren Islar: bye QT
    Susan Aloix: I'm interested in the function of illusion for humans..............i think its something none of us are without on some level
    Moon Fargis: re
    Darren Islar: I think so too
    Darren Islar: the most important thing for me is that I try to find a way to 'work' with them
    Susan Aloix: recalls the first time i realised my own mortality...lol it was damn frightening....and when i looked around at others...no ones talking about it....they are all busily filling their minds with things other than our impermance...lol...i found myself having panic attacks over it lol....and then i saw everyone else got by ..just by ignoring it daily....
    Bertram Jacobus: i have to leave - fl calls - ty all for the talk - may all beings be happy plz ! *wave* ...
    Darren Islar: bye Bert
    Moon Fargis: see you bert
    Susan Aloix: yes darren.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye bert
    Susan Aloix: Bye Bert :) thanks for your help
    Darren Islar: yes Susan
    Susan Aloix: (not leaving...Bert is i think)
    Susan Aloix: :)
    Moon Fargis: ahyes, there 1 one, one truth in life
    Moon Fargis: yes this is what noone declines to be wrong
    Moon Fargis: or untrue
    Moon Fargis: that own body life shall end into death
    Susan Aloix: yeah...absolutely
    Moon Fargis: yet this only one truth is ignored
    Susan Aloix: yes Moon. exactly!!
    Darren Islar: right Moon
    Moon Fargis: hmm i feel myself pretty relaxed when im accepting that truth
    Moon Fargis: and indeed its one of the first steps getting more inner peace
    Moon Fargis: hm there one was a zen story, a pupil asked the master what is zen
    Darren Islar: true
    Moon Fargis: he sayd "when i am hungry i eat, when i am tired i sleep"
    Darren Islar: knwoing there are thngs you can't control
    Darren Islar: that they will end
    Darren Islar: giving no clues about what happens next
    Susan Aloix: I had a tooth pulled out recently. Its a moment where i thought *and this is what will happen...i will decay or be pulled back to the earth tooth by tooth*...and the spirit in me.....is ageless....vital......i really felt the separation of the symbolic me and the bodily me in that moment lol...
    Darren Islar: I made a remark to my dentist that I felt something was 'pulled away from me'
    Moon Fargis: the pupil wondered "but thats what everyone does" and the master sayd : No everyone else gotsomething other in their mind doing this and that while they eat and decline to sleep when they are tired
    Darren Islar: he had no idea what I was talking about :)
    Moon Fargis: well
    Moon Fargis: your teeth wasp ulled away from you :)
    Susan Aloix: (lol darren......yeah he wouldn't have.....:) ..)
    Darren Islar: yes, but it took a few minutes to get in contact with that and to feel okay about it
    Susan Aloix: ohh i loved that zen story Moon....thank you for that
    Calvino Rabeni: We are all compost - already full of the micro-organisms needed for recycling the body back into the environment
    Susan Aloix: Yes....it was a moment for me as well...i was very distressed over it
    Susan Aloix: but pleased in a sense...our culture has no rituals to tell us about our eventual decay...and aging...well we spend billions covering age...
    Calvino Rabeni: Can zen see a positive thing, in the fact that we don't decompose quite yet?
    Darren Islar: hahahah Cal
    Susan Aloix: :) cal.....
    Moon Fargis: susan: well we spend also billions in getting older :)
    Susan Aloix: thats so true
    Susan Aloix: :) say more Moon please?
    Calvino Rabeni: There's an expression - "It's a good day - to be above ground"
    Moon Fargis: since the first day in pre shool people pay for their children to get old
    Susan Aloix: Cal....thats gotta wake some one up lol
    Susan Aloix: ohhhhhhh :) good point Moon..*nods*
    Moon Fargis: later we pay for courses to learn more
    Moon Fargis: study
    Moon Fargis: learn learn learn grow grow grow and one day one realizes how old he became
    Moon Fargis: and try to revert it
    Darren Islar: and learns he didn't learn a thing :)
    Moon Fargis: i often say, true people dont get old, they get wise
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i got to go, take care everyone!
    Darren Islar: not a thing about getting older, another stage in life, facing death
    Darren Islar: bye yaku
    Moon Fargis: btw to be wise dont have enything todo with education
    Susan Aloix: yes Moon and Darren....
    Susan Aloix: absolutely Moon
    Moon Fargis: so susan you seek for the truth, then let me say you carry it already inside of you you just need to look there
    Susan Aloix: smiles. I think thats a helpful instructuon Moon. Thank you . :)
    Moon Fargis: well we are used that we define ourself, trought others
    Darren Islar: but thanks for bringing it up Susan
    Moon Fargis: and thats a dead end when it comes to being awake to oneself
    Darren Islar: these are issues that are hardly discussed even around PaB
    Susan Aloix: Indeed Moon. Tranferring magical powers onto Master Guru types etc.......i think i knew more about the world on some level when i was a child.
    Susan Aloix: Oh i just love to talk Darren. My pleasure to be amongst you here. Yaku invited me over.
    Darren Islar: he did a great job then :)
    Moon Fargis: well your mind as child was , lets say less influenced
    Moon Fargis: by opinions of others
    Susan Aloix: :)))
    Darren Islar: and more connected with the world around on another level
    Darren Islar: but I think in growing up lies the secret
    Darren Islar: it gives us more awareness
    Darren Islar: but we don't learn how to use it
    Moon Fargis: well dont be stuck to gow up *streches his thongue to the pab bell*
    Darren Islar: in the meantime we loose the connection (also sticking his tongue out) :))
    Darren Islar: ah..... too late :)
    Moon Fargis: :) we need out inner child, growing up means for manny to kill it
    Darren Islar: yes, exactly
    Moon Fargis: being "serious"
    Moon Fargis: meh
    Moon Fargis: theres a teaching in zen "keep the dont know mind"
    Moon Fargis: wich sure dont mean not to know but not to stick to knowledge
    Moon Fargis: a quick question, what color got the pillow youre sitting at ?
    Darren Islar: blue
    Susan Aloix: I totally agree Darren.....growing up is important....but we throw out the baby with the bathwater...life become concreted by mono-cultural ways of being....this culture we have is not enriching to say the least......death -defying ...consumerist...values that leave us bereft of meaning etc.....the childs mind is so supple and open to creating meaning...
    Moon Fargis: and when i tell you that its not blue but green ?
    Susan Aloix: *keep the don't know mind*....love that...had that as a kid
    Darren Islar: I guess I will have a look again
    Moon Fargis: :) ok look again :)
    Susan Aloix: lol
    Darren Islar: still blue, to me that is
    Moon Fargis: to me its green :)
    Moon Fargis: so whos right ?
    Darren Islar: well maybe you can tell me what is green about it
    Moon Fargis: or, is there right afterall ?
    Moon Fargis: thats the point, its nothing
    Susan Aloix: being right is not necessarily the goal
    Moon Fargis: we just was teached to name this color as blue
    Moon Fargis: liek one also could be teached to name it as green
    Darren Islar: no, but wen the colour is blue to me, that is my starting point
    Darren Islar: so then I would like to know why it is green to you
    Darren Islar: and step by step, maybe I start to see, that it is.......... what it is
    Susan Aloix: chuckles...i'd like to know if its going to be a problem there being a difference?
    Moon Fargis: yes becasue your mind is stick to your teaching that this is blue :)
    Darren Islar: yes, but that is real for me in the moment
    Susan Aloix: its blue-green to me lol
    Darren Islar: I can't jump from a deep pattern to a new perspective just like that
    Moon Fargis: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Probably a lot more than just in the moment too
    Moon Fargis: darren, well it doesnt require you to jump
    Darren Islar: so I need to investigate, let my mind play with different concepts
    Moon Fargis: just to let it go for a short moment and see that it basicly could be every color
    Moon Fargis: nad even no color at all
    Moon Fargis: at the end we are stick with known deffinitions and those drop in deep meditation
    Moon Fargis: for example
    Darren Islar: I understand Moon, but it comes to me as a concept, because that is the way I learned to perceive the world
    Darren Islar: and yes, there are moments that I see it can be any colour
    Darren Islar: those moments occour
    Darren Islar: mostly unexpectedly
    Moon Fargis: :) yes im talking now of phases where human mind let go of everything inclusive ego and just let everything be as it is without terms and definitions
    Moon Fargis: hmm
    Moon Fargis: seemsmy RL calle me now
    Calvino Rabeni: It is pretty useful that those definitions "come back" after meditation in pretty much the same form as before
    Moon Fargis: calls
    Susan Aloix: kk Moon....
    Darren Islar: yes Cal
    Moon Fargis: have a nice day my friends :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Moon
    Darren Islar: bye Moon, thinks for the talk :)
    Susan Aloix: Have a nice day Moon. Be well.
    Susan Aloix: cal....do you think they loosen their grip after meditation?
    Darren Islar: Strangely enough I was thinking last night about sending an e-mail
    Darren Islar: it is coming back now
    Darren Islar: or spent a wiki page on it
    Calvino Rabeni: I think a benefit of meditation is to hold them a little more flexibly
    Darren Islar: yes
    Darren Islar: do it regularly and it sneakes into your life
    Darren Islar: and thos kind of talks do surely help
    Susan Aloix: yes....that flexibility is important i think Cal.
    Calvino Rabeni: It's not so much the concepts, but the consciousness around them that is more flexible and a bit bigger
    Darren Islar: we were no good today in the 90 sec breaks :)
    Susan Aloix: emotions as well Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: I noticed the same
    Susan Aloix: < trying to be good with them lol
    Calvino Rabeni: emotions also
    Susan Aloix: Nods.
    Darren Islar: any experience
    Susan Aloix: do you think most emotions can be loosened..in terms of their claim on our experience?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Darren Islar: sure
    Darren Islar: for sure
    Susan Aloix: grief at losing a loved one is healthy for instance....how does one know what needs our awareness and what can be expressed without a witness?
    Darren Islar: but some are quite ......eh...... sticky :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The flexibility is important - suppose we talk about numbness - then what happens to the mind - can it also see sensitivity more fully?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or not - it depends on the "Way" of talking / looking at those experiences
    Darren Islar: what do you mean ;can be expressed without a witness'?
    Calvino Rabeni: It might be possible to to good contemplation of those experiences people usually consider negative
    Calvino Rabeni: but it would depend on being able to see them without becoming more identified with them
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not suggesting the idea of "dropping" identification with them
    Susan Aloix: nods.....the spiritual perspective (or lack thereof) informing the resultant emotion is extremely involved in the emotions we experience
    Calvino Rabeni: but of just having a bigger mind around them
    Darren Islar: right Cal, important to notice
    Calvino Rabeni: that can feel the pain and suffering, and also know, that is not the whole story
    Susan Aloix: the part that knows the bigger picture i call the witness darren
    Calvino Rabeni: and know in a real way, the alternatives - not just as an idea that somehow they exist
    Darren Islar: okay
    Darren Islar: I think the witness should be there always, even in happy times
    Calvino Rabeni: Right susan, it is a kind of witness - but it is a witness that can "dive in" to experience at will
    Darren Islar: yes
    Darren Islar: that is why you don't 'drop' it
    Susan Aloix: darren...when i let my hair down and am having a good time...my witness is there some of the time lol
    Calvino Rabeni: The power of the witness, gives depth and richness to experience
    Darren Islar: you take away what you might learn
    Susan Aloix: yes i like the notion of the witness diving in
    Calvino Rabeni: with the witness present - then grief carries knowledge about the preciousness of life
    Darren Islar: we can be as attached to good feelings as we can to negative feelings
    Calvino Rabeni: yes true
    Darren Islar: both need space
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: the witness notices that kind of thing
    Darren Islar: so you can play with them and being able to witness it
    Susan Aloix: yeah....im not saying it shouldn't be present...just saying its less likely
    Darren Islar: yes
    Darren Islar: it is less likely, yes that is true
    Calvino Rabeni: notices whether an experience - whether supposedly positive or negative, either closes down or opens up awareness
    Darren Islar: but it should be as equal :)
    Darren Islar: right
    Calvino Rabeni: equal to the witness and to awareness
    Calvino Rabeni: But on the level of experiences, very different
    Susan Aloix: i'm pretty good though....positive experiences make me curious about my experience,,,,,the inner gaze watches
    Darren Islar: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: conscious suffering is a source of depth of soul
    Susan Aloix: cal may i ask how often you meditate and if you do it in SL?
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't do it in SL, except a couple times a week maybe with Liza
    Susan Aloix: kk
    Calvino Rabeni: In RL, quite often
    Darren Islar: Liza is my alt
    Susan Aloix: ohhhhhh nice
    Darren Islar: or I'm hers actually :)
    Susan Aloix: ohhhhh :)
    Susan Aloix: thats so cool :)
    Susan Aloix: waves at liza :)
    Darren Islar: Liza waves back :)
    Darren Islar: she has a place called the Shift
    Darren Islar: and doing some meditation session there
    Susan Aloix: nice :)
    Darren Islar: Moon has meditationsessions too
    Susan Aloix: cool...this is a lovely group btw..i feel very lucky to have found it
    Calvino Rabeni: As for what I do in RL, I have some "formal" sits, but for a long time follow the idea that "everything is practice"
    Darren Islar: yes, I know what you mean
    Calvino Rabeni: which means, many activities have a meditation component
    Susan Aloix: could you give me an example of a practice you do and how its become medative?
    Susan Aloix: i mean an activity
    Darren Islar: when the witness grows, every activity can be meditation
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: it's a kind of creative question, how any particular activity can become meditative
    Susan Aloix: do you find activities have become ritualised? or just heightened awareness during an activity...which i relate to as well
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, some of each
    Darren Islar: the activity where your mind doesn't need to work so hard are the easiest
    Susan Aloix: nods.
    Calvino Rabeni: sure, and there are lots of those
    Darren Islar: like walking to the store, doing the laundry, washing the dishes
    Calvino Rabeni: most of our day, perhaps
    Darren Islar: well a lot yes
    Calvino Rabeni: right those carry-water chop-wood activities
    Calvino Rabeni: standing in line
    Calvino Rabeni: driving
    Susan Aloix: and whats happening for you during those activities? heightened awareness of sensations?
    Calvino Rabeni: waiting for something
    Calvino Rabeni: Body sensing is an important element
    Darren Islar: we seem to wait a great deal of our time
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: noticing patterns of experience
    Calvino Rabeni: noticing their limits
    Darren Islar: normally that is the first thing I do, going to my body, making contact
    Calvino Rabeni: feeling their depth
    Susan Aloix: nods...sounds like gestalt therapy
    Calvino Rabeni: making choices about what experience to have, if there is choice available
    Darren Islar: yes, but gestalt can force things
    Susan Aloix: how long have yo been doing this cal?
    Darren Islar: it is meant to do so
    Calvino Rabeni: a long time
    Susan Aloix: yes gestalt used to be forceful...im a trained gestalt therapist
    Susan Aloix: wow cal
    Darren Islar: ah :)
    Susan Aloix: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I seemed to have it in childhood
    Susan Aloix: were your parents meditators?
    Calvino Rabeni: but as far as training in methods, well, also a long time, about since 1969
    Susan Aloix: ahhh cool cal
    Darren Islar: I was 5 back then :)
    Calvino Rabeni: My grandparents took me to meditaiton retreats as a young person
    Susan Aloix: LOl darren...i was 4
    Susan Aloix: ohh wow cal thats really cool
    Susan Aloix: very lucky
    Calvino Rabeni: As a child, I remember being fascinated by experience
    Susan Aloix: smiles.....
    Calvino Rabeni: by observing at the same time, what was happenign around me and what effect it had on my inner world
    Susan Aloix: what ways do you process anger?
    Calvino Rabeni: that's always a good one :)
    Susan Aloix: huh :) indeed
    Calvino Rabeni: I like it when we can discuss anger, even boredom
    Calvino Rabeni: which happens sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: boredom and numbness are hard to get a handle on as experiences
    Susan Aloix: same here.....im really interested in the whole spectrum of anger....internalised and externalised forms
    Calvino Rabeni: because of the idea that they "are not" experiences
    Susan Aloix: indeed...they certainly are
    Susan Aloix: (is going to meditate after this chat )
    Calvino Rabeni: I think the most basic thing is to achieve some awareness and witness
    Susan Aloix: are you successful at not getting angry?
    Calvino Rabeni: and for that, it is necessary to not go at it with the idea of makeing anything go away
    Susan Aloix: indeed
    Calvino Rabeni: or changing anything about it
    Calvino Rabeni: so perhaps it is required to accept - forgive oneself for being in the condition of having those negative experiences
    Susan Aloix: hopes darren is still here :)
    Darren Islar: yes, I am
    Darren Islar: listening :)
    Susan Aloix: okay....so do you think anger can in fact be eradicated...except for those times where its survival instinct?
    Darren Islar: anger is not going away by pushing it away
    Calvino Rabeni: Successful at not getting angry?
    Darren Islar: when you get into the experience, the experience might change
    Calvino Rabeni: I think people vary a lot - I am slow to anger
    Susan Aloix: no....i'm talking more about not allowing it to arise....not talking about suppression
    Calvino Rabeni: and slow to let go of it also :)
    Calvino Rabeni: BUt I don't have a goal to eradicate it
    Calvino Rabeni: And recognize its slow change over time
    Darren Islar: not allowing, is that different from suppression?
    Calvino Rabeni: not allowing is suppressive or oppressive
    Darren Islar: when it occours, it normally occours before you know it
    Susan Aloix: most times ive witness anger...people are usually locked in it for a while...takes some time to subside.
    Calvino Rabeni: and actually, it probably doesn't EVER subside
    Calvino Rabeni: it just gets acivated, or goes into background somewhere
    Darren Islar: yes, but the good thing about any emotion is that it WILL subside
    Susan Aloix: no....there are a few seconds in a situation where one can make an appraisal that makes the resultant emotion vary
    Calvino Rabeni: and when it is not activated, it doesn't mean, it isn't there
    Darren Islar: hmmmm, not sure Susan
    Darren Islar: I think it is the other way around
    Darren Islar: it occours, but our body and mind has oppressed behaviours in not feeling, showing it to us
    Susan Aloix: Dali lama talks about ways to use compassion in out appraisals of situations....to unlock our addiction to the emotion of anger
    Darren Islar: that si true also Cal
    Darren Islar: starting by acknowledging
    Darren Islar: accepting
    Susan Aloix: but im still processing these ideas myself....but i like where he is going with it..and its increasingly being suported by research....
    Darren Islar: after time, you slowly start to close in on it
    Susan Aloix: and i'm loving the opportunity to talk about it with you both
    Darren Islar: and there can occour a moment that you can take it by its tale
    Calvino Rabeni: Funny pun
    Susan Aloix: :)
    Darren Islar: I'm afraid it is not mine :)
    Susan Aloix: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: you can have it, Darren :)
    Darren Islar: Buddhism teaches you that you can get rid of attachement and anger
    Darren Islar: but it is very hard
    Susan Aloix: yes thats what im saying
    Calvino Rabeni: well, it's like addiction - a complicated process
    Darren Islar: my teacher told us a story, that people said of him, he really couldn't be made angry
    Calvino Rabeni: people have addictions to things that are otherwise important parts of life
    Darren Islar: but at an airport he needed chineese money
    Susan Aloix: yes cal.....very true....re. addiction
    Darren Islar: and he was aware of Mao's head on the bills he was carrying around on the airport
    Darren Islar: it is not something that shows itself to others
    Darren Islar: and can be easily disregarded as irritation
    Darren Islar: so it is not so easy to put yoru finger on it
    Darren Islar: it can be so subtle
    Calvino Rabeni: An example of seizing anger "by the tale" is that I have a story, about why certain things can trigger my anger
    Darren Islar: numbness can be a form of anger
    Calvino Rabeni: well emotions often "stack up" in layers
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: numbness is a top layer
    Darren Islar: but please tell Cal
    Susan Aloix: culturally speaking we are pro-anger.......its difficult to be the soft one in our culture and not be seen as a whimp etc.........loud and aggressive people are held up as winners.....its difficult not to learn the ways of aggression...
    Darren Islar: yes, it sure is
    Susan Aloix: :)
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: hi everone
    Calvino Rabeni: in a process of working with emotions, there's often a journey through that stack, from top to bottom then back again
    Susan Aloix: intersting nu,bness being the top layer cal.
    Calvino Rabeni: But of cousee it can vary a lot - there's no formula
    Darren Islar: hi Greybeard
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: hi hi
    Susan Aloix: Hello Greybeard :)
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: talking about the nature of emotions?
    Susan Aloix: yes thats where we are now grey
    Calvino Rabeni: We were talking about emotions as experiences
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: hmm wel there are different theory''about emotions
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: how you come to experience them taht is
    Calvino Rabeni: There are many theories - most of them I think, get in the way of experiencing
    Calvino Rabeni: IT's actually a complicated topic
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: well if you mean thinkiing without feeling i agree
    Susan Aloix: We were looking at the *witness*...and its ability to impact the experience of emotions
    Calvino Rabeni: and getting more study all the time
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: but iwasn't talking about the moment of experience just hwo it may work
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: some say that you first sense something in a shortcut way then have a body sensation and then you reconise that you have a emotion
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: others say that you always first have to reconise and then have the body feeling and then you have emotion
    Susan Aloix: some say you get a few moments to negotiate a *reading* on a situation and the emotions follow through in order for us to respond
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: i think there both true in different situatie maybe also at the same time
    Susan Aloix: yeah...i agree
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, there's a lot of rigidity about those theories, they can all be partly true
    Susan Aloix: both true
    Darren Islar: that's true Susan, but those moments are very, very short
    Darren Islar: because the initial feeling is free from positive or negative emotions
    Calvino Rabeni: We aren't machines, or at least, not simple ones
    Darren Islar: but it is gone faster then a blinck of the eye
    Susan Aloix: well....when you realise an emotion is not serving you or your life....you can then become more aware of triggering situations....and intercept automatic appraisals
    Darren Islar: to find a deeper layer of that anger
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: hmmm yes the fist sense is without positiev or negative but that is not feeling thats just sensing
    Darren Islar: true Cal
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: feeling is emotion and emotion always has a judgement
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: in my view
    Calvino Rabeni: I believe there's probably a ripplig efect between the diffeent "centers" and by the time we are aware, there is likely to have been multiple cycles of that process
    Susan Aloix: anger is an emotion...you can have a whole schema on life thats organised to favor the overuse of anger as a response to life....but anger is a bodily experience.....
    Darren Islar: emotion to me is different from feeling, but I guess that is another discussion :)
    Calvino Rabeni: those simple models of A then B then C are just idealisms
    Calvino Rabeni: Agree Susan, anger is both those things and more
    Susan Aloix: yes...*sensing* is the first phase grey
    Calvino Rabeni: sensing is one place to interrupt the cycle
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: but then interpretation is another
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: yes i agree i was just poiting out that sense isnt feeling and in my viewe feeling is always with interpretation. But i am talking of the first seconds of feeling something
    Darren Islar: easier to work with interpretation, because you can still 'see' it after the anger occoured
    Darren Islar: but harder that it takes far more time
    Calvino Rabeni: interpretation is a lot slower
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: so easier to catch as a process
    Susan Aloix: *scanning* is probably a useful word here...we scan for the most practical interpretation of an event.......and then arrrive at an appraisal...followed by the resultant emotion....which can also be riden...as Cal pointed out earlier
    Calvino Rabeni: but it is driven by those other events, often
    Calvino Rabeni: one word for that Susan is confabulation
    Calvino Rabeni: finding a likely story and then sticking to it :)
    Susan Aloix: Yes. Hopefullty one that does not end up with one getting angry lol
    Calvino Rabeni: But it's likely to be vary parallel - multiple stories compete for meaning
    Darren Islar: the mind and body are smart
    Calvino Rabeni: so in that sense, the pattern can be intercepted if some of the stories get better attention from the witness
    Darren Islar: if they can't have it one way, they use another way
    Darren Islar: to use anger I mean
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: wel not really interpretation can be very fast. We make interpretation a lot. We interpretae that when we walk in a rook that it is a room that there is a floor mayeb people. And thats the same with danger. You only have to see a guy with a gun pointed at you for les than a second to be scared
    Susan Aloix: well...many of us are addicted to anger because it gives us a temporary feeling of power and control...we rarely can drive anger with awareness.......its a brutish emotion
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a different level of interpretation, but I agree with that
    Calvino Rabeni: it cycles around and around
    Calvino Rabeni: building up into a consistent pattern
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: feeling afraid by danger can happen very fast
    Calvino Rabeni: and of course, controlled by circumstances
    Susan Aloix: iyes grey
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: i am little fague on th ecyclees mayeb you can explain
    Calvino Rabeni: not all circumstances are as definite as having a gun at one's head
    Calvino Rabeni: many our angers are triggered under vague circumstances
    Calvino Rabeni: where the meaning of the prior situation is itself highly interpretive
    Darren Islar: triggers coming from insie
    Darren Islar: inside
    Susan Aloix: yes cal...listening
    Susan Aloix: and yes darren
    Calvino Rabeni: Like getting angry at someone for breaking an appointment
    Darren Islar: :)
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: hmm yes i understand that intepreting in the long run is different. That more like thinking about yourself. What i said was just things that happen before a strong emotion
    Calvino Rabeni: In that example of getting angry at someone's behavior, It depends on so many different interpretations
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: well yes there is a whole history with taht person and your world
    Calvino Rabeni: What happens before a strong emotion, is often that a whole history gets crystallized into a moment
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: but thats the same with the man and the gun. You for example know what a gun is
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: yes i guess you can say that
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: well sad
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: crystalized history
    Susan Aloix: brb
    Calvino Rabeni: LIke someone breaking an engagement - one finds out they got an emergency, it was not disrespect - then the anger seems to evaporate
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: I undersatdn why you/we have the 90 sec breaks. It can be exhausting talking on a high level about things
    Calvino Rabeni: It does raise energy - which can be relaxed during the breaks
    Calvino Rabeni: But ... what is happening to make it "exhausting" ...that is a kind of emotional experience also, mixed with intellectual activity
    Calvino Rabeni: What's the difference between the experience of a converation as "exciting" and "exhausting"?
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: hmm well just intellectual activity
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: i like talking on a high level just i takes lot of energie
    Susan Aloix: back
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: its exciting
    Darren Islar: wb
    Susan Aloix: it is exciting....:)
    Susan Aloix: ty Darren :)
    Darren Islar: I feel my head is buzzing with excitement or exhaustion :)
    Darren Islar: or both :)
    Calvino Rabeni: sometimes those seem to go together
    Darren Islar: so I will go
    Susan Aloix: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, take care
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: bye bye
    Darren Islar: thanks for the very nice discussion
    Susan Aloix: take care Darren....lovely meeting you...
    Darren Islar: looking forward to some more :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Like sometimes it isn't clear if a feeling is fear or excitement, and it depends on interpretation
    Calvino Rabeni: Darren always brings a quality I enjoy to these converatations :)
    Susan Aloix: :) yay..pleased i was here to enjoy it
    Calvino Rabeni: I've enjoyed the chat also - but now it's my curfew
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: i think a feeling always depends interpretation. sometimes they are so easy we dont notice otherwise there are confusiong. like the first time you fall in love
    Calvino Rabeni: so I'll head to bed - hope to see you again
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: ok
    Susan Aloix: yes hope to see you again as well Cal....Yuka will tell me when the gatherings are on...tc
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: bye cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye then
    Calvino Rabeni: The gatherings are at 1, 7, 1, 7 AM and PM SLT every day here
    Calvino Rabeni: come whenever you like :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye for now

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