2010.07.19 01:00 - Many good things

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Cosmicflower Ushimawa. The comments are by Cosmicflower Ushimawa.


    First we shared some week-end news;

    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi, and sorry coming late
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: thanks Cal calling
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: just remembered its monday
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ...soryy
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ry
    Calvino Rabeni: <3 Cosmic
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3<3<3
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, I have time
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: felt so much as week-end
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: have it happened to You ever
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: that
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: monday feels week-end
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: like continued
    Calvino Rabeni: Surely doesn't feel like monday, true
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: You to have same feel?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, well, this is sunday night to me
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I am still on sunday
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)))
    Calvino Rabeni: Had a good week end?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes, I drow a pic about lady keeping snake
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: like in Tai Chi
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there can form a ball
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to heart area
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I drawed a lady
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: who keeps snake the same way like kept that "ball"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I need to colour it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: still
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: on week-end I was also much missing kids
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: they are coming home today
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and boys are been missing too
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: felt their feel
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: today its a day of joy
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: they come back
    Calvino Rabeni: That is sweet
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it is
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how was Your week-end?
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for the energy ball :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: when I have finished the picture, will send it to see ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: :))
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and then got another view to draw
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: same snake
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but mouth open
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and there comes out pink ball ;D


    About Mind...

    Calvino Rabeni: hmmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes?
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure how to start ...
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: but it seems, "mind" is not inside each person, but something we are all inside
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe taiji gives more of a feel for it
    Calvino Rabeni: whenever we are around a group of friends, the energy of it (or what you call it? ) is all around
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes , its able to feel
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: all of friends
    Calvino Rabeni: not separate :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its not much time I saw a dream
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: where was a hall
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: like gym hall
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and there were people in it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: one strange thing happened
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: suddenly some of those people on hall
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: was standing on circle
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: cheek by cheek
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: like group mind
    Calvino Rabeni: That sounds exciting
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it was interesting feel
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: The idea of the group mind is sometimes disturbing to people
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: why is that so?
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe it interferes with their idea of freedom, or how liberation may work
    Calvino Rabeni: or it seems like "too much work" ?
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not really sure
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm or maby its about want to be separate?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but why?
    Calvino Rabeni: Independence....
    Calvino Rabeni: Making one's own decisions
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby
    Calvino Rabeni: to be the author of one's own life?
    Calvino Rabeni: That group mind could bring much knowledge, as well as some responsibilities and limitations
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby need of that
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and maby also something new
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: for me the feel was new
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: in that dream
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: and many "disturbing" influences :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but good also
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, often good
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: (hmm, big SL chat lag here)
    Calvino Rabeni: (some line I wrote just disappeared)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: oh
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: okey
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Calvino Rabeni: About that group mind bringing new fresh energy
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ahh
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: but also, sometimes, it is a "drag" on oneself
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: all bring something
    Calvino Rabeni: have you experienced that
    Calvino Rabeni: after a while, to lose one's "edge"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Calvino Rabeni: So for example, in a discussion, someone was "edgy"
    Calvino Rabeni: meaning, a little sharp, a little different, with some energy
    Calvino Rabeni: something unexpected
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Calvino Rabeni: or like bringing creative energy
    Calvino Rabeni: seeing things in a different way
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: now I see
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: and then, over time, there are some "habits" that take hold
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have experienced some like that
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: like looked by someones eyes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: through some ones eyes
    Calvino Rabeni: Many people felt a creative stimulation when "new" to PlayAsBeing, with lots of energy
    Calvino Rabeni: and it could happen in other groups too
    Calvino Rabeni: or a relationship, like meeting someone and falling in love
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3
    Calvino Rabeni: and then over time it settles down


    About Tarots***
    Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking about the symbols of the Tarot
    Calvino Rabeni: which is a kind of "story" of developing wisdom
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I do not know about symbols much
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Can You tell me more about it?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: developing, thats something I like ;))
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes...
    Calvino Rabeni: So it starts with a card called the Fool
    Calvino Rabeni: which is not at all a bad thing
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I love fool too
    Calvino Rabeni: because the Fool is innocent, and full of possibility
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: with lots of light energy
    Calvino Rabeni: and NOT bound by history or attachments
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Darren Dear ;))
    Darren Islar: hi Cal, Csomic :)
    Calvino Rabeni: <3 Darren
    Darren Islar: Cosmic, I mean
    Calvino Rabeni: And Hokon :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3 Hokon
    Darren Islar: tarot?
    Darren Islar: tarot?
    Darren Islar: sorry, thought I had chatlag but I wasn't at the bottom of the window
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the topic was group mind, and the symbolism of the tarot, possibly as a way to understand the wisdom journey
    Darren Islar: Hokon crashed from the looks of it
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Darren Islar: the Fool :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Well these meetings become a continuum for me at times
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght, the journey starts with the Fool card
    Calvino Rabeni: someone is having a "new journey" and is full of possibilities, and free of the past
    Calvino Rabeni: like falling in love, perhaps, when not actually knowing the Lover
    Calvino Rabeni: and seeing the best in them
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, yes
    Calvino Rabeni: not so many entanglements and triggers
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its good feel
    Calvino Rabeni: we have hormones to make it easier :)
    Darren Islar: I'm trying to find a pciture of the Hermit and the Fool I once took
    Darren Islar: but it takes a while I'm afraid
    Darren Islar: don't know where I left it :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The main sequence of that Tarot represents a journey of development
    Calvino Rabeni: Next comes the Magician, I think
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: learning to do things, to start to make those infinite possibilities into something real
    Calvino Rabeni: by contacting heaven and earth
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes and with own inner feel
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or by own intuition
    Calvino Rabeni: ah,yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: trusting
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: one-Self
    Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, how are you today, Darren?
    Darren Islar: tired, but I slept well
    Calvino Rabeni: We all see one another pretty often
    Darren Islar: but asked too much of myself lately
    Darren Islar: which is done quite easily I'm afraid
    Calvino Rabeni: often enough to remember, maybe even have some continuum between the sessions
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: **
    Calvino Rabeni: All those pictures in the Tarot of different life situations - I like that it gives them all some value
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
    Calvino Rabeni: At one time in my life I might have thought it somehow wrong to be the Hermit, for example
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Darren Islar: :))
    Calvino Rabeni: What gives the ability to trust one self?
    Darren Islar: maybe the third card answers that one: the high priestess
    Calvino Rabeni: Because, I know, you have ability to do that
    Calvino Rabeni: :) Darren
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: thanks Darren :)
    Darren Islar: yw
    Calvino Rabeni: The High Priestess has power of innerness, darkness, mystery?
    Calvino Rabeni: Otherwise the Magician would run out of tricks
    Darren Islar: the first ten tarot-cards are more like potentials
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Darren Islar: in this case it is the high priestess, someone outside yourself, that you need to guide you
    Darren Islar: the veil is still closed
    Darren Islar: it is all there, but hidden
    Calvino Rabeni: Unless you identify with the high priestess as an inner figure
    Darren Islar: sure
    Calvino Rabeni: representing seeking the implicit - within one self
    Calvino Rabeni: That is to trust oneself more than the magician
    Darren Islar: but it is all still 'rough' not incarnated yet
    Calvino Rabeni: even if not knowing / not active / not shown
    Calvino Rabeni: are there later stages showing the incarnated process?
    Darren Islar: but at the same time very close to the 'real' thing
    Darren Islar: (whatever that is :))
    Calvino Rabeni: I mentioned the Tarot today, after asking what it is that happens when an individual starts to see themself part of a new group "mind"
    Calvino Rabeni: and what might happen to their energy
    Calvino Rabeni: at first energized
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe later losing some edge?
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a kind of incarnation
    Darren Islar: interesting to look that way about it
    Darren Islar: and there are a lot of 'oldies' that aren't in the group anymore
    Darren Islar: or don't show up that much anymore
    Hokon Cazalet: hey i gotta get to bed, have a fun night/day all =)
    Darren Islar: but the Tarot may show us what a group needs, how it develops
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night, Hokon :)
    Darren Islar: bye Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^
    Calvino Rabeni: That's interesting Darren, to see it from the group's viewoint
    Calvino Rabeni: *viewpoint
    Calvino Rabeni: There are newies and oldies
    Calvino Rabeni: and inbetween-ies such as ourselves
    Darren Islar: and the ones that asks the questions :)
    Darren Islar: the ones 'in between'
    Calvino Rabeni: hehehe ?


    Cos being present and out at the same time**
    Darren Islar: the pubers
    Darren Islar: I'm afraid we have talked Cosmic into sleep
    Calvino Rabeni: No, it isn't our doing
    Calvino Rabeni: RL is compelling her attention
    Darren Islar: I know :)
    Calvino Rabeni: so from our point of view, she is dreaming
    Darren Islar: 'inactive'
    Calvino Rabeni: having an out-of-body experience
    Darren Islar: :)
    Darren Islar: brb
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sorry, my kids came home
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: been "away" some mins
    Calvino Rabeni: Now a lively house once more :)
    Calvino Rabeni:

    Would you like to end the session then, Cos?

    Noup Cal, Being still there*****


    About the Development;

    Calvino Rabeni: OK, well I am thinking, that process of development - gradually brings the ability to function with some very paradoxical requirements
    Darren Islar: say more please
    Calvino Rabeni: for example, to fully credit one's own subjectivity, and at the same time, see it as functioning within larger "minds" such as group pr culture
    Calvino Rabeni: *or culture
    Calvino Rabeni: thus, a subjectivity that is not a separation
    Darren Islar: yes
    Darren Islar: interesting paradox
    Darren Islar: well Adoro said something interresting about that yesterday
    Darren Islar: like a group can maybe get objectivity
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: okey, it seems I have to go
    Darren Islar: but to me that is defining what we think is 'normal' at the moment
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: here is "too much" now
    Darren Islar: ok Cosmic
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Darren Islar: nice to have seen you again :))
    Calvino Rabeni: <333 Cosmic :))
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I will go now
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: See You soon Dear Ones <3<3<3

    and she comes back soon***
    Calvino Rabeni: Goodbye Dear :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Bye
    Darren Islar: bye Cosmic :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The seat is warm
    Darren Islar: yesssss
    Calvino Rabeni: did adoro say more about that ?
    Darren Islar: no, not really
    Darren Islar: to much people talking at the same time :)
    Darren Islar: democracy came after that
    Darren Islar: which I guess is the ultimate description of what we think is 'normal'
    Calvino Rabeni: In a way, democracy was founded on contemplative dialogue
    Calvino Rabeni: as practiced in greece, perhaps
    Darren Islar: now it is 50% + 1
    Darren Islar: but 'normal' is an 'objectivity
    Darren Islar: you can work with during the day
    Darren Islar: but it is no real objectivity
    Calvino Rabeni: I can't really see it - as modern life has no majorities any more
    Darren Islar: true, but we still have a lot of unspoken rules
    Calvino Rabeni: we certainly do
    Darren Islar: those are based on what we think is 'normal'
    Calvino Rabeni: and somehow they take hold, even if they represent minority positions
    Darren Islar: a lot of our behaviours, we are not even aware of them anymore
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: the majority of them, if they could be separated and counted (which they can't)
    Calvino Rabeni: And 'normal' is just what everyone seems to be doing at the time
    Darren Islar: no, it is more what we have become used to
    Calvino Rabeni: less than a kind of objectified definition of humans
    Darren Islar: like white people act differently in certain circomstances that black do
    Darren Islar: on a very subtle level
    Calvino Rabeni: culture
    Darren Islar: yes
    Darren Islar: but often misunterpreted by others
    Darren Islar: even government and police
    Darren Islar: so without even being aware of it, segregation happens
    Darren Islar: to become aware of it gives a whole new dimension
    Calvino Rabeni: there are lots of reasons people live where they do
    Calvino Rabeni: economics, or wanting to be near similar people, or liking the same conditions
    Calvino Rabeni: even in the absence of any oppressive attitudes, people would cluster into communities of similar
    Darren Islar: but a lot of those reasons, people are unaware of
    Darren Islar: yes

    --BELL--is ringing with Rules****
    Darren Islar: I guess that is not a bad thing, but loosing perspective on that can be bad
    Darren Islar: PaB also have a lot of unspoken rules
    Darren Islar: that's okay, except when everybody keeps them unspoken
    Darren Islar: and tell people at the same time you are an open, transparant group
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems to be the case, that subjective knowledge is mostly un-self-reflective
    Calvino Rabeni: so there's not much perspective on one's own experience
    Calvino Rabeni: even though embedded in it thoroughly
    Darren Islar: a lot of it is, yes, I surely think so
    Darren Islar: 'normal' behaviour is making us doze of
    Calvino Rabeni: For example, there is a big difference between
    Calvino Rabeni: A - what do I think Subjective means, and
    Calvino Rabeni: B- What does Subjective mean TO ME
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Orm substitute X for subjective
    Darren Islar: :)
    Darren Islar: that is a nice substitute :)
    Calvino Rabeni: As often the answer to (A) will be - second hand ideas - like, what one thinks others think about X
    Darren Islar: yes
    Darren Islar: or away from persons, what about being friendly
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm trying to think about what Subjective means to me
    Darren Islar: sorry :)
    Calvino Rabeni: What's the question about friendly?
    Darren Islar: friendliness, politeness seems to be very important
    Calvino Rabeni: We get used to the choppy nature of text chat, with unclear relationships betwen statements
    Darren Islar: which is a good thing in itself
    Darren Islar: that too
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure where you're going with this yet...
    Darren Islar: but sometimes saying harsh things can be the right thing to do
    Darren Islar: we cover a lot up under friendliness
    Darren Islar: we keep smeiling to each other
    Darren Islar: smiling
    Darren Islar: which makes it hard to have 'real' discussions
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you wish to be more outspoken at times?
    Calvino Rabeni: OR perhaps to get more honest feedback?
    Calvino Rabeni: And would it be about persons, or about objects?


    Being friendly and respect one and another***
    Darren Islar: well it is hard to put your finger on it, because respect is important
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Darren Islar: ah........ talking about respect
    Darren Islar: I think respect is not always the same as being friendly
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Darren Islar: but i think it is an unspoken rule that those are more or less equivilants
    Darren Islar: I think honest is a better word, then outspoken
    Darren Islar: but in a respectful way
    Darren Islar: I need to say it is something I try working on
    Darren Islar: somehow we didn't learn to do that in a proper way
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks for remarking on that
    Darren Islar: or is misunderstood by te other person, feeling it is meant as a personal thing
    Calvino Rabeni: what is the "work" and how?
    Darren Islar: well, I'm not sure
    Darren Islar: but sometimes I can put things forward, and then I find out people took it personal
    Darren Islar: which wasn't my meaning
    Darren Islar: but, being part of this society
    Darren Islar: I do much the same when it is the other way around
    Calvino Rabeni: in those scenarios, what was your intended meaning?
    Darren Islar: so I haven't found a good way yet
    Calvino Rabeni: Or theirs?
    Darren Islar: to point out something
    Calvino Rabeni: any kind of something?
    Darren Islar: for an example
    Darren Islar: we had a new one here, who was talking and talking
    Calvino Rabeni: I love examples by the way :)
    Darren Islar: and we told him about the bell and its purpose
    Darren Islar: but he claimed he didn't hear it
    Darren Islar: so I said that you could also see it by looking at the fountain
    Darren Islar: but he didn't see that because he was watching his keyboard
    Darren Islar: and so on and so on
    Darren Islar: oh, he started off with the idea that the bell meant: not talking by voice
    Darren Islar: :)
    Darren Islar: at the end I said it wasn't that he didn't notice, it was about him having so many thoughts and want to put them out all at once
    Darren Islar: but the remark was there before I 'knew' it
    Darren Islar: so it was polished yet :)
    Darren Islar: I mean, it wasn't
    Darren Islar: And Liza once confronted Arch
    Darren Islar: but looking back I think that was a good thing to do
    Darren Islar: but I also feel very insecure in those kind of situations
    Darren Islar: what I wanted to do was making the 'talker' become aware of what he was doing
    Darren Islar: and that it is hard to listen if your mind is so filled
    Darren Islar: just to make him stop for a while and make him wonder about himself
    Darren Islar: but if you take it personal
    Darren Islar: you might think I attack your whole personality
    Darren Islar: and in this society we have an unspoken rule to take those kind of things personal
    Darren Islar: women more then men
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes that could be
    Darren Islar: so there is a tendency to avoid to ay those things to each other
    Darren Islar: say
    Calvino Rabeni: It creats a dilemma of it being difficult to get accurate feedback from people
    Darren Islar: yes
    Darren Islar: hi Crusty
    Crusty Goldshark: hi guys
    Calvino Rabeni: Somehow I seem to remember, when first meeting Crusty, that I had eaten a deep-fried shark that day
    Crusty Goldshark: :)
    Darren Islar: :)
    Darren Islar: it is getting busy
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and just about my bedtime
    Darren Islar: if you stay long enough you have another groupmeeting
    Darren Islar: well, I need to go too soon
    Susan Aloix: hey :)
    Darren Islar: hey Susan :)
    Susan Aloix: Hi Darren :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't see a solution to that feeedback issue, unless people learn and practice different skills
    Darren Islar: me too
    Crusty Goldshark: hi Susan
    Susan Aloix: Hi Crusty :)
    Darren Islar: it is only possible if people feel some real trust in each other
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but trust can be built on skill, in a virtuous cycle
    Susan Aloix: sorry for coming in so late....what is the topic? :)
    Susan Aloix: i like that thought Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: that is, skillful communication can lead to trust and vice versa
    Darren Islar: yes
    Susan Aloix: it can at least create the conditions for trust
    Calvino Rabeni: we were talking about the difficulties of ... how would you state it Darren?
    Darren Islar: but that means as group you need to work on it consciously
    Calvino Rabeni: Barriers to accurate communication based on various factors
    Darren Islar: ah....:)
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree, to work on it consciously as a group maybe the way to shift the norms
    Calvino Rabeni: otherwise they are pretty stable
    Susan Aloix: ahh yes....:) was it Moon who said *to be understood is a rare privledge*?
    Darren Islar: I don't know, but he might be right :)
    Calvino Rabeni: If it happens, it means there was a lot of work done one both sides, to make it possible
    Darren Islar: stable but on an unconscious level
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, those go together
    Darren Islar: we started of with unspoken rules in communication in society and in a group
    Calvino Rabeni: that is why people resist being conscious - or being prompted to be aware of things - because it destabilizes
    Darren Islar: yes, there is a kind of fear, agreed
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a primary way "the mind" works is, not to pay attention unless something is "broken"
    Susan Aloix: yeah...rules usually get informally set up in various ways.......
    Darren Islar: an understandble fear btw
    Susan Aloix: i find it interesting the whole nature of norms in a group
    Calvino Rabeni: surely :)
    Darren Islar: it is
    Calvino Rabeni: They are often brokered through some individual(s)
    Calvino Rabeni: So in some cases the norm does not reflect majority thinking
    Darren Islar: hey Cosmic :)
    Darren Islar: majority, but not on an individual level
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: and you could interview lots of people, and the majority woudl not agree with the norm if it were up to them
    Calvino Rabeni: WB Cosmic :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: thanks ;)
    Susan Aloix: hello cosmic flower :)
    Darren Islar: I know :)
    Calvino Rabeni: So some individuals get "the job" to hold the norms
    Darren Islar: that is pretty strange, don't you think
    Calvino Rabeni: and others get "the job" to subvert the norms
    Susan Aloix: chuckles indeed cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Not too strange - because it allows the others to relax and be more flexible
    Darren Islar: And I try not to become that individual to break them :)
    Calvino Rabeni: heheh Darren
    Darren Islar: but a group works best if one is being pointed at as the one that breaks the rules
    Susan Aloix: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that role is called ScapeGoat
    Susan Aloix: say more darren please?
    Calvino Rabeni: and it is an important job
    Darren Islar: I can do the group a favour :))
    Calvino Rabeni: You can :)
    Darren Islar: about what Susan?
    Susan Aloix: can be a rotten experience being the scapegoat
    Calvino Rabeni: So eveyone has a "job"
    Susan Aloix: ohh the idea that it works best if one is being pointed at as the one that breaks the rules
    Darren Islar: ah
    Darren Islar: it is like pointing at the alcoholics in the parc
    Calvino Rabeni: For some meaning of "best", that seems true
    Darren Islar: happy you are not one of them
    Susan Aloix: yeah....usually a dysfunctional symptom of *groupthink* when inidiviuals are scapegoated.......
    Darren Islar: making them outcasts, thinking that you are not like them
    Calvino Rabeni: It is hard to think clearly about the dispossessed
    Susan Aloix: indeed.....
    Darren Islar: but in fact, if you dare to look closely at your self, you find you have a lot in common
    Calvino Rabeni: Have you been in a group that had a scapegoat?
    Darren Islar: everyone wants to be the hero
    Calvino Rabeni: How did it feel when they left?
    Susan Aloix: many cal
    Darren Islar: but to become that, people forget that you first need to break the rules
    Darren Islar: taking the chance you become the scapegoat instead of the hero
    Calvino Rabeni: very good point
    Calvino Rabeni: because there is a risk to go either way
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: in fact, it is part of taking leadership
    Darren Islar: exactly
    Susan Aloix: ohh well in terms of systemics...the *scapegoat* is a role and not a *person*..sooo once the *goat* is sacrificed...the group will then be addicted to the process.....it is not long before they re-commence their hunger for another scapegoat....its a sign the group cannot deal with their *stuff* and project it onto something for a deflection
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Darren Islar: right Susan
    Susan Aloix: i've led classes and seen before my eyes the class scapegoating
    Darren Islar: could you do anything?
    Calvino Rabeni: if you don't like the leader of the political party that you didn't vote for, that seems like an attempt to create a scapegoat
    Calvino Rabeni: I've seen that too, Susan
    Darren Islar: I don't want to, but I really need to go
    Susan Aloix: yes....i was in a position to be very directive ...(but my influence was limited Darren) i invited the group to re-direct their projections onto themselves...most of them stopped their lust to sacrifce the goat when they saw they held the exact same quality they were so keenly placing on the one student...(but it was limited influence..as the next year i was not teazching there and the student left)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: See You soon Darren <3
    Darren Islar: bye everyone :)
    Calvino Rabeni: take care Darren <3
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Do you have new outlook?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Darren ;)
    Darren Islar: that means nothing really changed
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: somehow,
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, okey ;)
    Darren Islar: sorry to hear
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: look good ;)
    Darren Islar: bye now :)
    Susan Aloix: some change...but yeah.....c ya darren :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Bye ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye!
    Calvino Rabeni: And I've seen it be useful to the group, by carying out bad energy
    Calvino Rabeni: It is hard to explain
    Calvino Rabeni: In a teamwork group, where people work together
    Susan Aloix: Well its usually not a scapegoat in that case....its more *literally dysfunctional behavior * and they need to leave
    Calvino Rabeni: but there are tensions and different ideas about how things shoudl be done
    Calvino Rabeni: then some people start to subvert and resist
    Calvino Rabeni: which isn't a bad thing per se
    Calvino Rabeni: but the group itself is not clear about their commitment to working together
    Susan Aloix: yes.....an aggressive attack on group goals and leadership is dysfunctional and time wasting
    Calvino Rabeni: and everyone accepts some part of that dissent
    Calvino Rabeni: because, it has an element of truth
    Calvino Rabeni: and then, theres a "culling" where some people ae asked to leave
    Calvino Rabeni: so they go somewhere else and do things their way
    Calvino Rabeni: and the group knows that those functions will be done, those ideas will be pursued
    Calvino Rabeni: but not in THEIR group
    Calvino Rabeni: so the give up the confusion
    Susan Aloix: yeah....but thats not scapegoating...thats a naturally sorting out
    Calvino Rabeni: and accept a narrower more focuesd definiton of how to do things
    Susan Aloix: scapegoating is where the group are dysfunctional and not the person
    Calvino Rabeni: but it is, because often there's a lot of heaviness projected on them
    Calvino Rabeni: like - you don't fit in, you're not a team player, you don't have what it takes to work here
    Calvino Rabeni: because people have attachements and affection for those colleagues
    Susan Aloix: but they are honest assessments
    Susan Aloix: scapegoats cope incorrect assessments
    Calvino Rabeni: and so have to make up some problem, to create some blame
    Calvino Rabeni: to have an excuse to drive them away
    Calvino Rabeni: it is an exaggeration,
    Calvino Rabeni: it happens even when, you can't objectively say one way is better than the other
    Susan Aloix: yeah...its a sore and painful business at times being in a group.....where people are not in the *flow*
    Calvino Rabeni: where there are just, incompatible alternatives
    Calvino Rabeni: then each"side" makes the other wrong
    Calvino Rabeni: like the polarized relationship between political parties
    Susan Aloix: yeah....conflict over group goals...visions....painful stuff at times......
    Calvino Rabeni: to make someone, or a group, "wrong" is to give up responsibility for the part of the whole that is their "job" to be responsible for
    Susan Aloix: i see your point how it all gets mixed up
    Calvino Rabeni: just because norms are not perfect
    Calvino Rabeni: and in fact are compromises
    Susan Aloix: they can be....very much so
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: the most good thing would be acceptance
    Calvino Rabeni: Like if sobriety is a norm, then it is good to have an occasional wild party carnival
    Calvino Rabeni: acceptance would include - respect for the people that hold the opposing "jobs" to one's own
    Calvino Rabeni: as we specialize and cooperate
    Susan Aloix: carnivals and acceptance....great norms...i'm in :)


    Cat thing with differences***
    Calvino Rabeni: My mother got 2 kittens
    Calvino Rabeni: from the same mother
    Calvino Rabeni: they are becoming more and more different
    Susan Aloix: 2 kittens!!!
    Calvino Rabeni: one is wild and always moving energetically - the other is becoming a "thinker"
    Susan Aloix: cool!!!
    Calvino Rabeni: the quieter one lets the wild one do all the active work
    Susan Aloix: lol cute
    Susan Aloix: i love kittens
    Calvino Rabeni: when petted, one arches up to meet the hand
    Calvino Rabeni: the other shrinks away slightly
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3
    Calvino Rabeni: one watches the other chase the toy, and then just waits
    Susan Aloix: ohhh so sweet :))
    Susan Aloix: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: if they teamed up to catch a prey, one would chase it, the other would wait and receive it
    Calvino Rabeni: they are learning naturally to be different and to cooperate
    Susan Aloix: yes beautiful cal
    Susan Aloix: and humans have very sophisticated abilities for co-operation
    Calvino Rabeni: yes don't we?
    Calvino Rabeni: and all that "stuff" about darwinism being competition, is SO distorted
    Calvino Rabeni: the majority of behavior in nature is cooperative and symbiotic
    Calvino Rabeni: which leads to effective survival, etc.
    Susan Aloix: sooooo agree with you on that rhetoric on competitiveness by some radical evolutionary psychologists ....*selfish gene* crowd....
    Calvino Rabeni: It started earlier, in the industrial age
    Calvino Rabeni: "Nature Red in Tooth and Claw"
    Calvino Rabeni: the more modern evolutionary biologists are looking at cooperation
    Susan Aloix: ohh indeed cal!!
    Susan Aloix: yes they are......
    Calvino Rabeni: Competition entered, with the industrial revolution
    Susan Aloix: hard wired to co=operate....we'd be extinct without it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Pablo ;))
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure would
    pablito Steampunk: hello all
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello
    Susan Aloix: Hello Pablito
    pablito Steampunk: hi, your investigating competition i see
    pablito Steampunk: nice topic
    pablito Steampunk: i've always had a problem around the competitive spirit
    Susan Aloix: well more investigating co-operation :) but yes :)
    pablito Steampunk: makes me feel uneasy
    Susan Aloix: i heard an interesting talk the other day on this topic
    pablito Steampunk: and not enjoying thye present as much
    pablito Steampunk: hi Zaldaan
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Zaldaan ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: once I have thought
    Susan Aloix: they were saying humans ability to be empathic is limited to a tribe of about 120 - 180 people.....thats the kind of number of people we can generally get to know enough to feel immediate empathy for....which is about the size of a small human tribe....apparently as we've grown in numbers...are ability to achieve emapthy for larger numbers is really limited....apparently this is why we are prone to constructing *out groups* who we are less empathic towards...
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if there is something I do not "like" or "know" there is something for me to learn - or - to remember
    Calvino Rabeni: right, this is tribalism, which is a natural built in structure of humans
    Calvino Rabeni: not something we evolved beyond
    Calvino Rabeni: I think the same way, Cos
    Calvino Rabeni: good distinction too - learn OR remember - I like it
    Susan Aloix: yes cosmis...same for me
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: those things I feel to like or know, maby I have "worked" with lately.. in time and space... and those I do not like, maby I have not been with those issues for a looonggg time
    Calvino Rabeni: nice way to think about it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so those "seems" to be unfamiliar
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but at the end they are not
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: only forgottan
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    pablito Steampunk: well, cosmic you have your own business right? do you feel under a competitive environment in your field of work?
    Susan Aloix: :) nice process cosmic
    Susan Aloix: hello Zaldaan
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: no I don`t
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think we all have our own customers
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: we are like magnets
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to attract those who suppose to come to us
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there are room for everyone
    pablito Steampunk: yes
    Zaldaan Sirnah: "Peace".
    pablito Steampunk: Peace and Love Zal ^^
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but yes, I have seen jealousity
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but I have also found out
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: jealousity is the one`s problem who is feeling it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not the one`s who they are jealous about
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then comes compassion
    pablito Steampunk: i see
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and maby if people do realice this, there is room for everyone, they do not need to feel jealousity
    pablito Steampunk: yes, jealousy can come to be relized as wasted energy
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: But in general business is very competitive
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but I do work with Beauty
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I feel it to be more like client service
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: do not mind competition
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm and, people do have their free will to choose what to buy and where
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and its needed to respect
    pablito Steampunk: do you think people enjoy competition for the emotional excitement?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby some do enjoy it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but I do not see it very beautifull
    pablito Steampunk: its what gets them outta bed lol
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or maby not at all
    Calvino Rabeni: I like it as a kind of game at some times
    Calvino Rabeni: just don't want to live that way and take it seriously
    pablito Steampunk: not for me either, like i say, when i'm in the field of behaviour, i tend to feel inadequate in it
    Calvino Rabeni: inter-group competition is a bonding force
    pablito Steampunk: more criticising it rather than partaking of it
    Calvino Rabeni: wiithin the group
    Calvino Rabeni: the solution to criticising is to partake
    pablito Steampunk: sure
    Calvino Rabeni: I had a friend with a hatred of hunters
    pablito Steampunk: but i never get the job done lol
    Calvino Rabeni: so I proposed, to get over it, we to buy a rifle and do some shooting
    Calvino Rabeni: it would have worked - if they went along with it :)
    pablito Steampunk: i kinda paralyze myself through analzing it
    Calvino Rabeni: It worked for me
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Jealousy seems to operate at multiple levels -- perhaps we even label multiple things under the one term. The feeling we have when someone has something they want, or think/feel/know we might need. Then there is, at least, another jealousy, where someone does something and you felt that was "for you", or "yours".
    Calvino Rabeni: jealousy, envy, many flavors I suppose
    Zaldaan Sirnah: In my experience we regularly experience the later when we are kids, but then I did not experience it so much through many years, until older at a more subtle level when pursuing the discovery of "identity".
    Zaldaan Sirnah: My identity, that is.
    pablito Steampunk: well, i think one becomes enlightened by these experinces when they pick up on there own states and are quick ot observe them and resolve them by letting go of these what i call unhealthy states of mind such as jealousy, enzy etcetera
    Susan Aloix: interesting Zaldaan....
    Zaldaan Sirnah: lol, Calvino.. (hunting)
    Susan Aloix: yes pablito...letting them go...or adopting a perspective that does not lead them into that state
    pablito Steampunk: yes
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I came up with many ideas and innovations, only to see, sometimes over 15 years later, someone finally implement it.
    Calvino Rabeni: However, I think people are too quick to make a blanket dismissal of any so-called negative emotion - this can be an egotistical thing to do - just to make things easier
    Calvino Rabeni: it ends up being self-sacrificing
    Calvino Rabeni: there is no emotion or experience that does not have a divine core to it, is my feeing about it
    Susan Aloix: jealousy is really hard to drop once you get a case of it lol....can take hours for some people to get rid of it...like a headache...and thats not even covering those who are chronically prone to jealousy...their whole life revolves around it
    Calvino Rabeni: Have you heard of the concept of a "spiritual bypass"?
    Calvino Rabeni: (I only said that once :)
    pablito Steampunk: yes, it seems easy sitting here, saying just let go, but when your in certain situations, it can be tricky to get out of at times
    Susan Aloix: i think there are some realy evil experiences where i struggle to envisage divine core to them...?
    pablito Steampunk: caught in the negative emotions trap
    Calvino Rabeni: that you have had?
    Susan Aloix: yeah....not easy pablito
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: bypass?
    Susan Aloix: no...that others have...such as wild angers that lead to violence or murder....nothing divine about them
    Zaldaan Sirnah: bypass?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it means, the idea to skip working through the reality of feelings that are "difficult"
    Calvino Rabeni: acting,for instance, "above it all"
    pablito Steampunk: especially if your surrounded by people with negative thoughts for a long period of time, it can rub on you too
    Calvino Rabeni: like pretending to be evolved beyond anger
    Calvino Rabeni: and finding ways to "banish" ti rather than learn from it
    Susan Aloix: ohh can be exhausting around negative states...i agree
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ahh, okey now I "got" it
    pablito Steampunk: yes draining
    Calvino Rabeni: You understand
    pablito Steampunk: and irritating
    Zaldaan Sirnah: some people are better off not dwelling in regret -- so lumping all "negative" thoughts together might not work here.
    Zaldaan Sirnah: (or feelings, etc. etc.)
    Calvino Rabeni: the environment is certainly influential
    Susan Aloix: I'm a bit lost Cal.....it looks really interesting what you're saying though.....please say a little more
    pablito Steampunk: yes, very methinks Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: well, the idea to label a feeling as "negative" and hope just to be rid of it by manipulating thoughts ...
    Calvino Rabeni: what counts is the motivation
    Susan Aloix: yes.....
    Susan Aloix: i'm with you
    Calvino Rabeni: if the motivation iss comfort and convenience, not learning and truth
    Calvino Rabeni: then it is a "spiritual bypass"
    pablito Steampunk: the problem with most societies is that they think alot on getting things done, but do not take in as much focus on the psycho social side of the environment
    Calvino Rabeni: sometimes you do have to walk through the valley of the shadow
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, now I need to go again... see you soon Dear Ones
    Calvino Rabeni: agree, pablito
    Calvino Rabeni: and they adopt a "fixit" mentality rather than a truth mentality
    Susan Aloix: ohh yes...i agree cal...comfort and conveninece is an unexamined life......
    pablito Steampunk: bye Cosmic
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye again Cosmic <3<3<3
    Susan Aloix: bye bye coasmic :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    pablito Steampunk: yes a lack of Dharma :)
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Can we build a non-recorded area over yonder, and see where people choose to sit?
    Zaldaan Sirnah: Here it is forced upon everyone.
    Calvino Rabeni: I can turn it off, if you like
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, I will take that as a Yes
    Susan Aloix: i'm fine either way
    Susan Aloix: i like that others can read our conversations tho
    Zaldaan Sirnah: I'm good with it oPage Title

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