2010.07.20 13:00 - Contemplation

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.

     

    Bleu Oleander: hi Bruce :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Bleu!
    --BELL--
    Bleu Oleander: hi Sartre
    Sartre Placebo: hey everyone
    adoro Rhapsody: hi all
    Bleu Oleander: hi adorao
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Sartre, adoro
    Bleu Oleander: how is everyone?
    adoro Rhapsody: i m fine thnx
    Bruce Mowbray: good, thanks.
    adoro Rhapsody: and u ?
    adoro Rhapsody: blue ?
    Bleu Oleander: hi adoro (sry for typo)
    Bleu Oleander: great thx
    Bleu Oleander: how are you both enjoying PaB?
    adoro Rhapsody: yes it is addictive
    adoro Rhapsody: but i dont mean it negative
    Sartre Placebo: hi qt
    Qt Core: hi all
    adoro Rhapsody: hi qt
    Bleu Oleander: hi Qt
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Qt.
    Bleu Oleander: have you been practicing the 9sec?
    adoro Rhapsody: not yet
    Bleu Oleander: shall we try at the next 90 sec break?
    adoro Rhapsody: every 90 minutes ?
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Bleu Oleander: at PaB we break after 15 minutes for 90 secs
    adoro Rhapsody: its reflective
    Bleu Oleander: in RL we suggest taking 9 sec breaks
    adoro Rhapsody: i see
    Bleu Oleander: There are some introductory ideas on the website. But basically we stop for 9 seconds, just pause, and drop our associations and identifications that we carry with us most of the time, our baggage if you like, so that we can get a chance to see what we are behind that.
    adoro Rhapsody: that is good habit i think
    Bleu Oleander: then if you like, we share our experiences
    adoro Rhapsody: a bit of TAO living
    adoro Rhapsody: or reflexion
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    adoro Rhapsody: i like that
    Bleu Oleander: a fresh look
    Bleu Oleander: trying to drop what we have to see who we are
    Bleu Oleander: I have used the practice in rl and find it very helpful
    Bleu Oleander: get caught up often in our worlds and need to pause
    adoro Rhapsody: what is virtlantis sartre ?
    Bruce Mowbray: "Virtual Atlantic" I presume. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: Atlantis.
    adoro Rhapsody: i see
    Qt Core: yesterday he told it is a sim about languages
    Qt Core: but can't remember more details
    Bleu Oleander: in a few minutes the bell will sound signaling a 90 sec break .... shall we try to experience it as dropping what we have?
    Bruce Mowbray is looking at that group now.
    adoro Rhapsody: maybe he can explain
    Bruce Mowbray: UWA VIRTLANTIS (Second Life English) SIM is a free resource and open community for language learners and teachers in Second Life as well as a collaborative educational partnership with the University of Western Australia (UWA). *Second Life English launchroom owners are especially encouraged to join this group and actively use the UWA VIRTLANTIS group tag when on-SIM. Community Website: www.SLEnglish.com
    adoro Rhapsody: ok thnx
    adoro Rhapsody: we dont need to ask but can search it ourselves on google
    Bruce Mowbray: I am fascinated by the ways that virtual reality (and SL in particular) is being used by RL educational institutions at all levels and in all disciplines.
    adoro Rhapsody: me too
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Bleu Oleander: interesting tool


    --BELL--
    adoro Rhapsody: but it seems to me that educational institutes are ver conservative
    adoro Rhapsody: sorry
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, adoro, that's often the case.
    Bruce Mowbray: One group that studies the on-going uses of virtual reality in education settings is "Metanomics."
    Bruce Mowbray: another is Rockcliffe University (an SL educational group).
    adoro Rhapsody: i see
    Bruce Mowbray: There are also some good books (RL) on the topic - - Your could find them at amazon.com or Google for them.
    adoro Rhapsody: maybe by publishinh positive results we can change the edu institutes from conservative to willing to use it
    Bruce Mowbray: I suspect it's a bit like the established church not wanting folks to wander off and do their spiritual work on their own -- or through whatever media they might choose.
    adoro Rhapsody: or why shell sponsors reseach to new energy
    adoro Rhapsody: to slow it down
    adoro Rhapsody: so they can firtst sell old oil
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, wherever there is some invested interest (especially monetary) in an established institution, you'll find change slow in coming.
    adoro Rhapsody: wise words
    Bruce Mowbray: "Old oil" sort of a metaphor for resistance to change in general.
    adoro Rhapsody: right
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm going to move to the other side so I can get all of us in my viewer at once...
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    adoro Rhapsody: u have pamorama view now ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Wol!
    adoro Rhapsody: pano
    Bruce Mowbray: (just about panoramic, adoro.)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Qt Core: hi Wol, Ara
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Wol Euler: evening all
    Bleu Oleander: hey Wol, Ara
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, arabella!
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
    adoro Rhapsody: hi ara
    adoro Rhapsody: hi wol
    Wol Euler waves cheerfully into the round
    arabella Ella waves to Blub too :)
    Bleu Oleander: looking fabulous today .... very Eshi :)
    Wol Euler beams
    adoro Rhapsody: hi cal
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Calvino!
    Wol Euler: thank you! I think I hvae a new favourite dress
    Bleu Oleander: hi Cal
    Qt Core: Hi Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello :)
    arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino
    Bleu Oleander: def one of the top 10!
    arabella Ella: would be lovely to see you stand up Wol to get a better look
    adoro Rhapsody: wow
    adoro Rhapsody: looks great
    Bleu Oleander: very cool!
    arabella Ella: thanks ... wow ... amazing design ... lovely
    arabella Ella: swirl please
    Bleu Oleander: quite lovely
    adoro Rhapsody: mmm
    Bruce Mowbray gasps at the beauty!
    Wol Euler: I'm delighted with it.
    adoro Rhapsody: getting exited
    arabella Ella: whoooosh of the feathery fabric ... lovely
    Wol Euler smiles and nods. This is perhaps Eshi's best to date.
    Bleu Oleander: Eshi does amazing work
    adoro Rhapsody: well i have to leave for an early sleep
    arabella Ella nods
    adoro Rhapsody: bye all
    Wol Euler offers landmarks.
    arabella Ella: night adoro
    Bleu Oleander: bye adoro
    Wol Euler: bye adoro, take care
    Qt Core: 'night adoro
    Bruce Mowbray: good night, adoro.
    Sartre Placebo: night adoro
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Yaku!
    arabella Ella: Eschi is very famous on SL and so clever too
    Wol Euler nods
    Wol Euler looks around. Is yaku here too?


    --BELL--
    Bruce Mowbray: He's a bit boxed-in at the moment.
    Sartre Placebo: :)
    Sartre Placebo: in the cafe
    Wol Euler: ah :)


    Bleu Oleander: hey Sartre, can you tell us a little about Yaku's special session on Thursday?


    Bleu Oleander: hi Arista
    Arisia Vita: Hi all!
    Wol Euler: hello ari
    arabella Ella: Hiya Ari!
    Qt Core: Hi Arisia
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Arisia.
    Wol Euler: I was going to ask Sartre how he divides his attention between two avs, but I guess we know the answer :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Bleu Oleander: multi-AVing
    Wol Euler nods.
    Wol Euler: I've done it too, as a last recourse, but I find it very unsatisfying.
    arabella Ella: some people seem to manage it quite wel though i notice
    Calvino Rabeni: Don't ask Sartre, IM the other one :)
    Wol Euler: hehehehh
    Bleu Oleander: ha!
    Sartre Placebo: :)
    Wol Euler: the delight of SL is in the embodiment, to me, and having two "me"s to watch means that I don'T embody particularly well in either of them
    Bleu Oleander: agree


    Sartre Placebo: actally, i am thinking what exactly i am going to prepare for starting in the end
    Qt Core: i wonder if in the future with better vr and friendly AI people would "really" multitask
    Bleu Oleander: just start at the end :)
    Sartre Placebo: how many koan´s do we have to know ?
    Wol Euler: that is itself a koan :)
    Sartre Placebo: how much contemplative literature must one know to be successful in contemplation :)
    Sartre Placebo: or is it all already there ?
    Sartre Placebo: starting in the end, is that possible ?
    Sartre Placebo: something like that :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Very little, Sartre
    arabella Ella: 'must' we ever 'really' know anything?
    Arisia Vita: how much Shakespeare does one nee to know to be successful in love?
    Calvino Rabeni: In the sense that literature can't supply a content for contemplation, and it can't really teach how to do it either
    Bruce Mowbray: (only in the comedies does one find "successful" loving.
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, Ara
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a will-of-the-wisp
    Bruce Mowbray: I just checked, and learned that it requires 23 milliliters of contemplative wisdom. . . Hi, Aztlan. Hi, Morganp. Hi, Pqablito!
    Wol Euler: hello aztlan, morgano
    Wol Euler: nice to see you both again
    Bleu Oleander: hi Aztlan, morgano
    Aztlan Foss: hi bruce
    arabella Ella: Hiya Pablito, Azlan, Morgano
    Aztlan Foss: hi wol
    Qt Core: hi Aztlan, morgano
    Aztlan Foss: hi arabella
    morgano Bravin: hello everyone
    Bleu Oleander: hi pablito
    Wol Euler: hello pablito
    pablito Steampunk: hello
    pablito Steampunk: whats the topic?
    Bruce Mowbray: We've been quantifying koans.
    Calvino Rabeni: Contemplation was one topic
    morgano Bravin: does that mean count them up?
    pablito Steampunk: sounds deep ^^
    Bruce Mowbray: 23 ml, to be exact -- required for "successful" contemplation.
    Calvino Rabeni: I feel if you can find a good contemplation teacher or group, it's well worthwhile
    Bruce Mowbray: I consider this to be one of those.
    Bleu Oleander: probably better than reading books Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: The basic idea of PaB is contemplation, I agree Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Darren.
    pablito Steampunk: hi Darren
    Wol Euler: hello darren
    Darren Islar: hi everyone :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi darren
    morgano Bravin: you have to count 234 million koans?
    Qt Core: hi Darren
    morgano Bravin: too much for me
    arabella Ella: Hi Darren


    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: One of the principles of contemplation - distinguishing it from musing - is focus or staying "on purpose"
    Calvino Rabeni: not easy to do always :)
    Calvino Rabeni: There's inner and outer resistance to that, actually
    Bleu Oleander: as in almost anything :)
    Calvino Rabeni: which can become part of the contemplation
    Bruce Mowbray: and for this you recommend a good teacher and/or contemplative group, Cal.
    Darren Islar: YES
    Calvino Rabeni: I have found it can help
    Darren Islar: (sorry :))
    Bruce Mowbray: np, Darren.
    Calvino Rabeni: even if the "teacher" writes a book, the problem is, reading isn't contemplation
    Calvino Rabeni: and it's tempting to think it substitutes
    Bruce Mowbray: In the past 24 hours, I've been using the image of a wheel - with a rim (outer) and a hub (inner) to find my way back to "purpose."
    Calvino Rabeni: I remember your image, Bruce, and thought of it
    arabella Ella: that is a lovely image Bruce
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-) - - - It will work for a while, then something else will emerge.
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: a mandala, perhaps. . . but who knows?
    Calvino Rabeni: It's important to trust the emergence
    arabella Ella: please keep us posted Bruce :)
    Aztlan Foss: i don't understand what we're talking about
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Ewan!
    arabella Ella: contemplation
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe about, doing contemplation
    pablito Steampunk: the act of contemplation methinks
    Bleu Oleander: hi Ewan
    Bruce Mowbray: methods.
    Calvino Rabeni: or, the Art of it
    Sartre Placebo: hey ewan
    Aztlan Foss: oh like contemplating what we're talking about?
    Calvino Rabeni: Contemplation has its "greatest hits", one of which is "who am I"
    Darren Islar: hey Ewan
    Bruce Mowbray: alarm clocks. . . memory joggers. . .
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    pablito Steampunk: yes who am i, the most difficult question
    Bruce Mowbray wonders -- Why is everyone suddenly staring at ME?
    Aztlan Foss: lets figure out who is bruce!
    Calvino Rabeni: The staring is supplied by SL, isn't it?
    Darren Islar: are we?
    Wol Euler: I'm not
    Bruce Mowbray: The things is, I've learned that it's possible to sleep through just about any alarm clock.
    arabella Ella: am I?
    Bruce Mowbray: thing.
    Calvino Rabeni: So you can do contemplation with anything
    morgano Bravin: I am not bruce either
    Calvino Rabeni: like - an ice cream cone
    morgano Bravin: although we could be connected in some being way
    Calvino Rabeni: And the question would still be "who am i, with this ice cream cone"
    Bruce Mowbray: If you can "find" the "hub" or the "wheel," - I'd say that it would be possible to do contemplation with anything.
    morgano Bravin: is that what a koan is?,,like an ice cream cone?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: of.
    Calvino Rabeni: So the ice cream cone is one of the spokes on the wheel
    Calvino Rabeni: pointing back to the center
    morgano Bravin: its not a Koan then?
    Aztlan Foss: Vanilla Ice Cream Koan
    Calvino Rabeni: and the center could be "who am I"
    Darren Islar: in Buddhism there is a wheel too
    Darren Islar: the wheel of existance
    Bruce Mowbray: could be. . . but also possible to through you out to the rim. . .
    Wol Euler: the ice cream cone that you can eat is not the true koan :)(
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Darren Islar: a hud that keeps us in Samsara
    Bleu Oleander: need to go .... bye all :)

    (had to go for the WG Meeting)


    Qt Core: bye Bleu
    Wol Euler: bye bleu, take care
    pablito Steampunk: bye Bleu waves *
    morgano Bravin: bye Bleu
    Bruce Mowbray: bye, bleu!
    Sartre Placebo: bye bleu
    Darren Islar: bye Bleu
    Darren Islar: and 12 spanners to show how the process works
    Calvino Rabeni: spammers?
    Wol Euler: spankers?
    Wol Euler: spokes
    Darren Islar: spokes
    Wol Euler: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: thanks Darren
    Bruce Mowbray: diameters of the wheel.
    morgano Bravin: thankyou all, I need to go and look for some Koans
    Calvino Rabeni: The image says, all the spokes are equal
    Darren Islar: bye Morgana
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, morgano.
    Qt Core: bye morgano
    arabella Ella: bye morgano
    Wol Euler: bye morgano
    Calvino Rabeni: Now this wheel has 11 spokes
    Qt Core: i need to go too, bye all
    Calvino Rabeni: soon to be 10 :)
    pablito Steampunk: bye QT
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye QT
    Wol Euler: bye qt, take care
    Bruce Mowbray: bye, Qt - - maybe . . . quick! make a spokes count!
    Darren Islar: hmmm, not in the wheel of existance, sorry
    arabella Ella: notte Qt
    Darren Islar: bye QT


    --BELL--
    Sartre Placebo: night everyone
    arabella Ella: night Sartre
    Darren Islar: night Sartre
    Bruce Mowbray: The image of "wheel" -- an archetype?
    Calvino Rabeni: it is a pretty basic symbol true
    Darren Islar: maybe, the wheel has the ability to move and at the same time to stand still
    Calvino Rabeni: centers and edges are a kind of sturcture archetype
    Bruce Mowbray: both ideal form and a tool.
    Darren Islar: there is a centre that holds it togehter
    Darren Islar: together
    arabella Ella: the image of the wheel may evoke so many other images and connotations
    Calvino Rabeni: What is the center and the edge ... of my life ... is a contemplative question
    arabella Ella: the circle for eternity for example
    Darren Islar: and the rest is going round and round and round and round and......
    arabella Ella: sense of travail or journey
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, arabella -- from microscopic aquatic life to galaxies. . .
    Darren Islar: did i already say it is going round..... ?
    Calvino Rabeni: round and round, means you have knowledge of past and future
    Calvino Rabeni: if it says, time is cyclic
    Bruce Mowbray: (or are just VERY dizzy).
    Darren Islar: not necesarrily but it is a pattern yes
    Wol Euler: my dears, I must go. Too tired.
    Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care
    Calvino Rabeni: to not be dizzy, identify with the center
    pablito Steampunk: goodnight Wol
    Darren Islar: sleep well Wol :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Wol -- love your dress!
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Wol
    arabella Ella: night Wol
    Wol Euler: ty :)
    arabella Ella: I must go too goodnight all!
    Darren Islar: bye ra :)
    pablito Steampunk: nighty nite
    Darren Islar: Ara and Ari :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, arabella. - love your mini-skirt.
    Arisia Vita: nice to see you all, hope to again soon
    Arisia Vita: bye for now...
    pablito Steampunk: bye Arisia
    arabella Ella: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: bye Arista.
    Bruce Mowbray: arisia... sorry.
    Darren Islar: If i see it right Bruce, you are flying high up in the air, cathing fish?
    Bruce Mowbray: Lately I've been fascinated by the ideal of "beauty" as a primal quality of Nature.
    pablito Steampunk: anyone else tired here? :)
    Bruce Mowbray: and that it may have existented from the "beginning" of time.
    Bruce Mowbray: existed.
    Bruce Mowbray: The discovery of "whells" in nature tends to add evidence to my inquiry.
    Bruce Mowbray: whweels.
    Bruce Mowbray: wheelas.
    Bruce Mowbray: my goodness.
    Bruce Mowbray: wheels.
    pablito Steampunk: lol
    pablito Steampunk: you got there in the end
    Bruce Mowbray: This keyboard has a mind of its own.
    pablito Steampunk: sticky keys perhaps
    Bruce Mowbray: I knew the right spelling would eventually "emerge."
    Bruce Mowbray: I actually take great comfort in the realization that natural symmetry, balance, and beauty exist.
    pablito Steampunk: i tend to think archetypes are personal powerful symbols, so itr makes it quite arbitrary what symbols they are
    Bruce Mowbray: It becomes a contemplative koan for me.
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, agreed, pablito.
    Bruce Mowbray: as Jung pointed out, archetypes appear in various cultures independently.
    pablito Steampunk: yes, as if by accident
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, and they also are basic to "synchronistic" experiences.
    pablito Steampunk: yes, its as if when one delves deep into ones consciousness this phenomenon we call synchronicity occurs, for me anyway.. ^^
    Bruce Mowbray: Pablito -- does that experience tend to "unite" or "unify" your experiences, in general?


    --BELL--
    pablito Steampunk: ah i can speak now ^^
    Bruce Mowbray: sure!
    pablito Steampunk: yes, it tends to create an integrating experience within, but trying to explain it directly seems near in possible, i mean by the way it happens
    pablito Steampunk: impossible* i meant
    Bruce Mowbray: when you experience synchronicities, do you take that as a "sign" of anything -- or just an experience (or an appearance)?
    pablito Steampunk: にゃ~ん♪♪
    pablito Steampunk: no i take it as a deep inner oberservance, thats particular to my life journey
    Bruce Mowbray: I see. So it is meaningful you in an interior way.
    Bruce Mowbray: to you - for you.
    pablito Steampunk: yes, always
    Bruce Mowbray: I like it that it is impossible to "Make" synchronicities happen.
    Bruce Mowbray: They are always spontaneous.
    pablito Steampunk: we are all lone wanderers in this world right
    Calvino Rabeni: One can be receptive, though
    Bruce Mowbray: You could not get everything all arranged and plan to have a synchronicity experience, say, at 5:30 p.m.
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, receptivity is key. agreed, Cal.
    pablito Steampunk: yes, its the act of receptivity that records the synchronicity i think
    Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps receptivity is key in all "emergence" -- especially in spiritual work.
    Calvino Rabeni: Once Pila asked - can we do something, such that we are available when luck happens
    Bruce Mowbray: a wonderful idea, pablito. . . and yes, Cal, to be available.
    Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps that's one reason people put themselves in monasteries. . . and other "spiritual environments...
    Bruce Mowbray: to be "available" when it happens.
    pablito Steampunk: yes, all spiritual teacher suggest quiting the mind in order to recieve the juices :)
    pablito Steampunk: quieting*
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, and yet, for me -- synchronicities often happen when I am very busy with other things -- like driving down a freeway.
    pablito Steampunk: hmmm yes good point
    Bruce Mowbray: there's a sort of "inevitability" to them, at least in my experience.
    Bruce Mowbray: They pop in when I'm least expecting it.
    Bruce Mowbray: I must excuse myself now - - I will look forward to reading the "juices" of this chat in the wiki.
    Bruce Mowbray: good day, folks.
    pablito Steampunk: ok bye Bruce
    Darren Islar: bye Bruce
    pablito Steampunk: good day
    pablito Steampunk: is this a forum totally devoted to philosophy?
    Darren Islar: no actually not
    Darren Islar: we 'play' with space
    pablito Steampunk: i see


    --BELL--
    Darren Islar: space in which we can make other choices
    Darren Islar: sometimes it tends to philosophy
    Darren Islar: sometimes to spirituality
    Darren Islar: sometimes to questions about life itself
    pablito Steampunk: but never trivial matters such as which celebrity slept with who
    Darren Islar: we chitchat sometimes
    pablito Steampunk: にゃ~ん♪♪
    pablito Steampunk: it feels nice and organic that way, with no specific rules :)
    pablito Steampunk: accept i think we should of been silent for 90 seconds then :)
    Darren Islar: yes, sorry :)
    pablito Steampunk: do many topical discussion arise often here?
    Darren Islar: need to go guys
    pablito Steampunk: bye Darren
    Darren Islar: see you next time :)
    pablito Steampunk: sure, take it easy
    pablito Steampunk: the last two
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Darren :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Sorry Pablito, I'm slightly multitasking
    pablito Steampunk: np, do what your doing
    Calvino Rabeni: topical discussions come up informally
    pablito Steampunk: i do not mind silence
    Calvino Rabeni: sometimes there are "theme"sessions also
    pablito Steampunk: yes, i noticed on the notice board
    pablito Steampunk: i must say, i like the format
    Calvino Rabeni: glad to hear it
    Calvino Rabeni: since people often propose their own topics "in the mix"'
    pablito Steampunk: and do the Guardian normally initiate certain topics?
    Calvino Rabeni: there'
    Calvino Rabeni: s often more depth, if there are fewer people here, and vice versa
    pablito Steampunk: aswell as allowing all sorts of topics to arise
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: and the topics just get touched a little in any one session
    Calvino Rabeni: but can be picked up in future sesssions
    pablito Steampunk: because i think yes, it important perhaps to have well thought out topics that are well in turn with current events in the world
    pablito Steampunk: well in tune*
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree with the first part - well thought out
    Calvino Rabeni: about current events - well it comes up occasionally
    Calvino Rabeni: but most here don't seem "current event' orinted
    Calvino Rabeni: at one end of the scale, there's courrent events
    Calvino Rabeni: at the other end, what people consider eternal topics
    pablito Steampunk: it will strengthen the group i think if universal problems are looked at
    Calvino Rabeni: and everything in between
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree with you
    pablito Steampunk: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: but not sure how best to do it
    pablito Steampunk: yes, easier said than done
    Calvino Rabeni: and to keep a contemplative approach
    Calvino Rabeni: which is one of the hallmarks of this group
    pablito Steampunk: we know what needs to be done, but excuting it can be tricky at times perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: people know certain habitual "ways of thinking"
    Calvino Rabeni: familar patterns


    --BELL--
    pablito Steampunk: how long have you been attending PaB?
    Calvino Rabeni: IN my view, one of the potentials of this group, is to learn to use a variety of those "ways of thinking" and not get "stuck"within the familar ones and their limitations
    Calvino Rabeni: Like, PaB is not a philosophical "debate" style
    Calvino Rabeni: or a "how do we fix the world" style
    pablito Steampunk: yes, i think that could be its untold message :)
    Calvino Rabeni: but might use all those ways of thinking, but embedded in a larger vision
    Calvino Rabeni: It is an "untold" principle, true :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm usually happy to take a step back and discuss what the principles might be
    pablito Steampunk: usually when rules and regulations are not placed on ppl, interesting or potentially extrodinary insights might arise
    Calvino Rabeni: But it's ungrounded, from the point of view of others
    Calvino Rabeni: that's true Pablito
    Calvino Rabeni: but discipline and form has its uses too
    pablito Steampunk: yes as a guide, a guide that shapes it away from stupity, such as trolling or throwing insults etc
    Calvino Rabeni: for example, making it possible to break out of limited habits
    Calvino Rabeni: and enlarge the scope of possible behaviors
    pablito Steampunk: stupidity*
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    pablito Steampunk: yes, limits is a key concept to understand
    Calvino Rabeni: so true
    pablito Steampunk: looking at where you limit youself
    Calvino Rabeni: which is the form that you have
    Calvino Rabeni: but don't necessarily notice
    pablito Steampunk: these groups have potential to open up these unrealised limits we impose on ourselves
    Calvino Rabeni: yes :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and impose on each other
    pablito Steampunk: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: and accept as impositions, from "outside" sources
    pablito Steampunk: well, we are all used to impositions in the real world
    pablito Steampunk: so its makes a refreshing change to find a space that does quite the opposite
    pablito Steampunk: when i say the real world, i mean when confronted with social systems
    pablito Steampunk: at home alone one is quite free to explore all he likes
    pablito Steampunk: or that may not be true for all ppl
    Calvino Rabeni: I understand
    pablito Steampunk: i see myself lucky not to be in that camp
    pablito Steampunk: yes, your right thinking of "outside sources" that means any human text or speech
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: solitude has its uses too
    Calvino Rabeni: I like the thinkers who live in both worlds
    pablito Steampunk: yes, perhaps to get back to your senses :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and have the space to do independent thingking
    Calvino Rabeni: and contemplation, but also have a way to bring it back into "the village"
    pablito Steampunk: oh yes, i do not think one muct be permantly in solitude, but perhaps i tend to think its important for humans to practice it
    pablito Steampunk: yes, well, thats why i think you brought up contemplation earlier as an issue
    Calvino Rabeni: tue
    pablito Steampunk: its perhaps a way for constructive thought to the community
    Calvino Rabeni: *true
    pablito Steampunk: the first part is learning how to enjoy the process of inner development and then the ball gets rolling
    Calvino Rabeni: I think I agree, there's a certain "base" needed
    pablito Steampunk: but i think most ppl who come here all enjoy that process
    pablito Steampunk: they wouldn't attend otherwise
    Calvino Rabeni: Your emphasis on "enjoy" is important
    pablito Steampunk: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, some people think of the process of inner development as "work"
    Calvino Rabeni: and the idea of doing it in a group, then doesn't seem like "more to enjoy"
    Calvino Rabeni: but somehow, adding to the work load
    pablito Steampunk: thats what i hate about work in the real world, you can end up being surrounded by ppl who do not enjoy what their doing, which is a hellish experience for me
    Calvino Rabeni: I was talking to someone else - about the idea of having play and work be the same thing
    Calvino Rabeni: work hard play hard, at the same time
    Calvino Rabeni: hellish indeed
    pablito Steampunk: yes, but work hard in a joyful manner, if possible lol
    Calvino Rabeni: on the other hand, sometimes there is a good team sporit
    Calvino Rabeni: *spirit in RL work
    Calvino Rabeni: that can be a nice thing, also a "trap"
    pablito Steampunk: yes, if we are enjoying ourselves, the team will enjoy being together working together etc
    Calvino Rabeni: and smart companies know it,
    Calvino Rabeni: as it enhances productivity etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: But, it can be a substitute for a more broadly meaningful life
    Calvino Rabeni: I've been at times a workaholic, in motivated companies like that
    Calvino Rabeni: the time flies by
    pablito Steampunk: yes, i would like the team to first and foremost enjoy ethical values to there work
    Calvino Rabeni: and I was highly "identified" with what was happenign there
    Calvino Rabeni: see, and it wasn't bad at all :)


    --BELL--
    pablito Steampunk: yes, i tend to notice that, when you enjoy what your doing time flies and the opposite when not enjoying it, sods law i call it lol
    Calvino Rabeni: enjoyment without it being worthwhile is a trap
    Calvino Rabeni: because it doesn't fool every part of oneself
    pablito Steampunk: yes your right
    Calvino Rabeni: so there's some serious splitting going on inside
    Calvino Rabeni: I have a friend who has the job of outsourcing other peoples jobs
    pablito Steampunk: and it can lead to a guilty conscience
    Calvino Rabeni: even sometimes his friends
    Calvino Rabeni: so he suppresses a lot of guilt about it
    Calvino Rabeni: and it slowly built up into self-loathng
    pablito Steampunk: yes, one can become masters at suppressing guilt if not careful
    Calvino Rabeni: but he has at least the ability to self-reflect
    Calvino Rabeni: so he knows that at work he has to be the grim reaper,
    Calvino Rabeni: but he hasn't liberated himself from the golden handcuffs
    Calvino Rabeni: confessing it to others perhaps is his first step
    pablito Steampunk: yes, the only first step i think
    Calvino Rabeni: second actually, first was becoming aware of it
    pablito Steampunk: trying to find solutions to all the subtle things that bother the mind
    pablito Steampunk: ok second
    pablito Steampunk: your right good interjection :)
    pablito Steampunk: i find hardcore self reflection becomes a kind of drug when practiced alot :)
    pablito Steampunk: or addiction rather
    pablito Steampunk: lol
    pablito Steampunk: thats where mediatation makes it uses
    pablito Steampunk: to nullify all addictions
    Calvino Rabeni: hmm


    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: A practice would be off-track, if it were part of an addictive process
    Calvino Rabeni: or in some way hardcore
    Calvino Rabeni: Meditation might nullify many addictions
    pablito Steampunk: yes, but don;t we all fall into that trap, unless we are very proficient in our thinking
    Calvino Rabeni: but suppose one were addiceted to being withdrawn from other people
    Calvino Rabeni: then meditation might not help :)
    Calvino Rabeni: if one thought doing it all the time would somehow add up to being in better relationships with people :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Proficient thinking - involves a lot of subtle discernment I suppose
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd guess people generally get "trapped" at a certain level of development, depending on their competencies
    pablito Steampunk: yes, they get trapped until they realise when it has been fulfilled and they should be onto another route
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm contemplating something you said earlier
    pablito Steampunk: its that constant searching for new experiences, but at teh same time knowing how much one can handle at a time
    Calvino Rabeni: "learning how to enjoy the process of inner development "
    pablito Steampunk: yes, its an interesting thought
    pablito Steampunk: in fact a vital one
    Calvino Rabeni: very much so
    pablito Steampunk: i mean, if ppl do not learn how to enjoy inner development, how will the evolution continue?
    pablito Steampunk: not through the mind i suspect
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, as a motivational force, true
    Calvino Rabeni: but deeper than that, I think it serves as a kind of compass
    pablito Steampunk: and the compass represents a certain direction that works
    Calvino Rabeni: provided there's some way to discern between developmental and regressive experiences of enjoyment, pain, and/or suffereing


    --BELL--
    pablito Steampunk: yes, i concur with your last statement very much so
    pablito Steampunk: do you feel personally that you have recognized this clearly?
    Calvino Rabeni: Mostly, for the things that enter my consciousness - but it's harder to work with the unconscious
    pablito Steampunk: one thing i tend to notice, is the more one looks into this issue more, the more one notices when one is corruptted by outside forces
    Calvino Rabeni: I think I know what you mean
    Calvino Rabeni: if you're referring to develping discernment
    pablito Steampunk: and these are unconscious forces, these corruptions at times, or mostly rather
    Calvino Rabeni: Mostly unconscious - but I don't call them "corruptions" because it seems biased
    pablito Steampunk: yes, i'm referring to the path of self development
    Calvino Rabeni: If the world had a message for me, and for egoic reasons I did not like it, I might call it a corruption
    pablito Steampunk: and the development of others
    Calvino Rabeni: Some experiences are epiphanies when they occur, but crystalize into rigid concepts and assumptions
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance, it might seem energizing and blissful to have some kind of transcendental experience
    Calvino Rabeni: but that doesn't mean one can extrapolate that to define the entire process of development
    pablito Steampunk: Calvino Rabeni: If the world had a message for me, and for egoic reasons I did not like it, I might call it a corruption, ( yes thats what i meant specifically)
    Calvino Rabeni: when that happens you get people chasing peak experiences, and then feeling unhappy the rest of the time
    pablito Steampunk: the ego is usually the cause for corruption, from my experience anyway
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, for lack of a better word I might use Ego, but basically I think most uses of it are not helpful
    pablito Steampunk: can you explain further what you mean with your last staement?
    Calvino Rabeni: Reification
    Calvino Rabeni: Another word - hypostatis
    Calvino Rabeni: I mean Hypostasis


    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: which is the tendency to assume that there is some "thing" that is being referred to, if there is a word / concept for it.
    pablito Steampunk: nice terms
    Calvino Rabeni: And then there's a wrapper around it, which is a Story, but one of those unspoken ones
    pablito Steampunk: well, ok you right ego is just a word, so i do practice within to have maybe to all words that i use
    Calvino Rabeni: The story is something like - an ego is a thing, a single thing, a thing that is not mine, that is not really "me", that corrupts "me", who would otherwise be some other purer thing, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a *deep* mythology,but in a christian culture, is basically the story of the garden of eden
    pablito Steampunk: yes, your right, but i didn;t know it stemmed from the garden of eden
    Calvino Rabeni: that there are some innocent beings, they sin, they fall from grace, get corrupted, but for whom redemption is possible, maybe in the future sometimes, if things are done right
    pablito Steampunk: interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: that is just a deep cultural story about metaphysics
    Calvino Rabeni: it may have some truth to it
    Calvino Rabeni: but, in different cultures they have different stories
    Calvino Rabeni: or maybe certain people think they are somehow the same story, but with different cultural flavors added
    pablito Steampunk: yes, so the term can hold many permutations
    pablito Steampunk: so making it quite arbitrary
    pablito Steampunk: i see what your saying
    pablito Steampunk: i think :)
    pablito Steampunk: maybe
    Calvino Rabeni: well, the story, selects only a very few of the possibilities and emphasizes them
    Calvino Rabeni: like, if there is an ego, is it personal?
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe not...
    Calvino Rabeni: is it singular or plural?
    Calvino Rabeni: who knows - until really looking at it
    Calvino Rabeni: is it corrupting? Well maybe partly
    Calvino Rabeni: What is its purpose? Is it useful?
    pablito Steampunk: well what i assume ego to mean, is that part of you that identifies with your self as something
    Calvino Rabeni: so it is just one part ....
    Calvino Rabeni: But in experience it happens dynamically and unconsciously
    pablito Steampunk: when you think about yourself, do you see an image of yourself?
    Calvino Rabeni: something happens in the world, and then, something happens "inside" oneself
    Calvino Rabeni: and it gets an individual flavor
    Calvino Rabeni: so it appears like - of all the ways this showed up, and I know others are possible, but it apeared *this* way
    Calvino Rabeni: and then one assumes, the ego had something to do with that
    Calvino Rabeni: as if it made a choice
    pablito Steampunk: but i'm asking you directly now, do you have some sort of image of your self?
    Calvino Rabeni: and decided on being limited,
    Calvino Rabeni: Are you asking whether I have a reflective self-concept?
    pablito Steampunk: like i'm this or that
    pablito Steampunk: yes
    pablito Steampunk: its the same question as who am i


    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: I've observed patterns ...
    Calvino Rabeni: but actually I think "who am I" is a bigger question than that
    pablito Steampunk: so you see yourself self as an obersever of patterns? perhaps?
    Calvino Rabeni: Informally perhaps, but not philosophically
    pablito Steampunk: oops sorry for the typos
    pablito Steampunk: yes as a means to function right?
    Calvino Rabeni: I suppose so - a working assumption, not an ontological conclusion about what exists
    Calvino Rabeni: so the fact that I appear to observe myself observing patterns, doesn't define "me" as a thing that observes patterns
    pablito Steampunk: yes, you can always change to a new way of seeing youself
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: The fact that I have the appearance of being able to witness something, doesn't mean that the answer to "who am i" is "I am a Witness"
    pablito Steampunk: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: That's I think, the assumption both of Descartes and of some eastern religions
    Calvino Rabeni: I think therefore I am
    Calvino Rabeni: is pretty much the same in my view as
    Calvino Rabeni: I witness silently, therefore I am
    pablito Steampunk: its the very act of defining something, that gets in the way
    Calvino Rabeni: It can get in the way
    Calvino Rabeni: But does it have to?
    pablito Steampunk: i'm this or that
    pablito Steampunk: i do this
    Calvino Rabeni: So one of the phrases floating arount PaB in the early days
    Calvino Rabeni: was "what else is true"
    Calvino Rabeni: which is a way of resisting the closure of specific concepts
    Calvino Rabeni: Contemplation is a process of "thinking" at the edge, or beyond the edge, of the world of concepts
    pablito Steampunk: so its a technique in a question that starts some sort of investigation
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    pablito Steampunk: and hopefully a fruitful one :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that's the rub :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a tricky consideration
    Calvino Rabeni: because of the need to discover some emergent rather than predefined "fruitfulness"
    pablito Steampunk: にゃ~ん♪♪
    pablito Steampunk: it is, but as long as we are enjoying the considerations, there is no problem
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe, if enjoying can be taken as a sign of it being worth doing
    Calvino Rabeni: and often it can
    pablito Steampunk: yes, that leads back to our original question
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    pablito Steampunk: i think i shall finish on that note
    pablito Steampunk: ^^
    Calvino Rabeni: :)) Thanks Pablito - good to "contemplate" with you!
    pablito Steampunk: yes you too, that was fun, i felt that flowed well
    Calvino Rabeni: Have a good day/evening/night
    Calvino Rabeni: Same here
    pablito Steampunk: to you too
    pablito Steampunk: bye for now
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
    --BELL--

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