2010.07.22 01:00 - Mandalas and Impermanence

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Archmage Atlantis, Calvino Rabeni, Darren Islar and Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard

    Introductory chat:

    Zen Arado: Hi Atzlan
    Zen Arado: Hi Arch:)
    Archmage Atlantis: Morning, Zen......well at least morning here :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Otherwise, good day *g*
    Zen Arado: how are you?
    Archmage Atlantis: I see "Do Androids Dream of Electronic Sleep" has made it onto an agenda..........and I am good, actually,thank you Zen
    Zen Arado: it's morning here too 9 am
    Zen Arado: what agenda?
    Archmage Atlantis: Hum, 7 hours to Finland, that would be 11 AM, 9 AM must be England or Ireland?
    Zen Arado: Hi Darren:)
    Zen Arado: yes _ I live in Ireland
    Darren Islar: hi everyone :)
    Archmage Atlantis: The sci fi history agenda......no it is not a formal agenda......just one in my mind
    Zen Arado: I just got out of hospital Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Infectious disease, or chronic condition, Zen?
    Zen Arado: I lurched out of mu sick bed just to take this pab session :)
    Zen Arado: I had an inflamed gall bladder
    Darren Islar: I can do it if you want to Zen
    Zen Arado: it has to come out I think but after things settle down a bit
    Archmage Atlantis: Ah
    Zen Arado: no It's ok Darren I was getting bored anyway
    Darren Islar: :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
    Darren Islar: hi Cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Zen, good to see you :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Hey dude....I mean Cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Duuuuude !
    Zen Arado: good to be back

    Discussion about mandalas and impermanence:

    Archmage Atlantis: The great mandela
    Archmage Atlantis: or mandala
    Archmage Atlantis: I forget
    Darren Islar: mandela is a person
    Zen Arado: of life?
    Zen Arado: life is a mandala
    Darren Islar: right, didn't know how to explain :)
    Zen Arado: many twists and turns and puzzlw
    Archmage Atlantis: Maybe I should just stick to songs from Disney's "The Lion King" *g*
    Archmage Atlantis: But yea, the circle of life
    Zen Arado: mandalas are in Tibetan buddhism
    Archmage Atlantis: yes, true
    Darren Islar: not in Mayana buddhism in general?
    Darren Islar: mahayana
    Zen Arado: don't think so
    Darren Islar: no in Zen?
    Darren Islar: not
    Zen Arado: no not as far as I know
    Darren Islar: k
    Zen Arado: Zen is more austere and simple
    Darren Islar: true
    Archmage Atlantis: The symbol of the mandala, perhaps not, the idea, perhaps maybe
    Zen Arado: no gaudy colors for them
    Zen Arado: it says in a
    Zen Arado: an article "The mandala's purpose is to help transform ordinary minds into enlightened ones and to assist with healing."
    Darren Islar: but I think in India that is different
    Darren Islar: yes
    Darren Islar: that is why I can imagine it is not in Theravada
    Zen Arado: always seemes such a waste to me
    Zen Arado: the way they destroy them at the end of all that work
    Archmage Atlantis: Pats the part of the elephant I am aware of as a blind man
    Darren Islar: that is symbol for emptiness :)
    Zen Arado: so beautiful too
    Zen Arado: yes - symbolizes impermanence
    Calvino Rabeni: The destroying is an important part of the ritual
    Darren Islar: right
    Calvino Rabeni: they do it with power
    Darren Islar: yes, it is
    Zen Arado: and the way we want to cling to that which is pleasant and beautiful
    Calvino Rabeni: and carry the sand back to the ocean
    Zen Arado: yes Cal
    Darren Islar: yes, it is a learning process
    Darren Islar: you spend days making it, with the best effort you can put in
    Zen Arado: oh it says !" Mandala sand painting was introduced by the Buddha himself"
    Darren Islar: right I thought wo
    Darren Islar: so
    Zen Arado: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi.../mandala.shtml
    Darren Islar: it is not typical Tibetan
    Darren Islar: thanks
    Darren Islar: beb
    Archmage Atlantis: No, mostly Disney
    Darren Islar: brb

    Learning or unlearning?

    Zen Arado: I found being in hospital a learning experience
    Archmage Atlantis: Zen, what is the essence of learning?
    Zen Arado: you got me there
    Archmage Atlantis: I did not intend to "get you"
    Zen Arado: sometimes think I need to do more unlearning than learning
    Archmage Atlantis: That is part of the essence I see
    Archmage Atlantis: There is more
    Zen Arado: depends what it is you learn too I guess
    Calvino Rabeni: Unlearning is the task for the second half of the human life span
    Zen Arado: you know the old saying " a little learning is a dangerous thing"
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that's from a good essay on Art
    Archmage Atlantis: Learning is not memorization
    Zen Arado: maybe it is not the learning but the clinging to what we have
    Zen Arado: learned
    Calvino Rabeni: A lot of learning is also a dangerous thing
    Archmage Atlantis: Define what is danger, please for me Cal.
    Zen Arado: anyway I don't like thwe word 'essence' much

    Essence and solidity:

    Zen Arado: don't
    Zen Arado: believe in essences
    Zen Arado: it's a way of trying to define and freeze reality
    Calvino Rabeni: But that's impossible, Zen :)
    Zen Arado: trying to find some underlying permanent solid ground
    Zen Arado: yes exactly
    Zen Arado: ha - a good friend asked me the other day " what is the ultimmate truth of Zen ?
    Archmage Atlantis: If I look through a telescope, and take a picture of what I see, does that freeze the essense of the movement of the stars?
    Zen Arado: no of course it doesnt
    Zen Arado: it just captures a moment in time
    Archmage Atlantis: agree
    Darren Islar: it makes it feel it is frozen to you
    Zen Arado: funny how we seem to want to solidify things so much
    Darren Islar: you can take that as 'reality'
    Darren Islar: I guess we don't like changes, we scared for it
    Zen Arado: we don't seem to like change and impermanence, do we ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, well if you know it to be an image of an instant, compared to the whirling cosmos, the snapshot might enhance the sense of constant change
    Darren Islar: that is probably because we cling on to life
    Darren Islar: also a moment in time
    Darren Islar: that too Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: We don't like staticness and stability either
    Zen Arado: if we could just go with the flow
    Darren Islar: then first you need to find the 'flow'
    Zen Arado: or what we think is static
    Darren Islar: we lost contact with that
    Darren Islar: we don't understand anymore what it means
    Zen Arado: I was trying to go with the flow of a hospital
    Zen Arado: easiest way
    Darren Islar: that's a flow yes
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: and we don't much like complexity - especially not that - yecch :)
    Archmage Atlantis: A flow is a static concept, it implies that all moves according to a fixed, mappable rate
    Darren Islar: true
    Zen Arado: oh yes - the routines of doctors and nurses
    Zen Arado: oh yes we make
    Darren Islar: but it is a start Cal
    Zen Arado: flow into a static concept too
    Darren Islar: at least you start to experience some flow again
    Darren Islar: some change
    Darren Islar: but actually there are so many flows, slow ones, fast ones, going left, going right
    Calvino Rabeni: Not do we like thinking ? I think, or is it just compulsory thinking
    Calvino Rabeni: We like compulsive thinking
    Zen Arado: I was practicing 'The great way is easy for those who have no preferences'
    Calvino Rabeni: No preferences means flexibility, it doesn't mean not liking things
    Darren Islar: compulsive thinking yes
    Zen Arado: not having preferences is a good way to go with the flow I think
    Zen Arado: yes Cal
    Darren Islar: strangest thing is that we might be seeking for stability, but our thinking is the opposite
    Archmage Atlantis: You guys debate quite well, very enjoyable
    Calvino Rabeni: we're not seeking stability
    Archmage Atlantis: Namaste
    Zen Arado: namaste Arch
    Calvino Rabeni: nor change, we're seeking a dynamic balance, that is life
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Darren Islar: that is what it should be yes
    Zen Arado: maybe we want a stable flow to be in
    Zen Arado: it's so tricky
    Darren Islar: you can't freeze anything because it is always dynamic
    Darren Islar: yes, knowing where it starts and where it ends
    Zen Arado: but knowing when to act is important too
    Darren Islar: trying to control our environment
    Calvino Rabeni: Tell me one thing you want to continue, and one you want to end ? :)
    Darren Islar: :) Cal

    Karma of lifestyles:

    Darren Islar: the part of karma that is about the right environment that shows 'learned' karma
    Zen Arado: you notice that often people's lifestyles contribute so much to their illnesses
    Zen Arado: a kind of karma
    Darren Islar: following the pattern
    Calvino Rabeni: tell me about your personal karma :)
    Zen Arado: one guy used to drink 8 litres of coke every day
    Zen Arado: and beer and potato chips
    Archmage Atlantis: Or people's illness contributes much to their lifestyle......I see not proof either way
    Zen Arado: only my theory I guess
    Darren Islar: the most vast part of smokers you find at the department for longues in a hospital
    Zen Arado: so doctors have to treat people for avoidable illness
    Darren Islar: sorry my personal karma is too personal :)
    Darren Islar: for a recorded session
    Calvino Rabeni: I respect that
    Archmage Atlantis: The drug in tabacco helps control a particular condition

    At this point we moved into personal, private issues whch I have not logged.

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    Viewing 2 of 2 comments: view all
    Zen!! Nice to see you!
    Posted 06:40, 22 Jul 2010
    Welcome back Zen :))
    Posted 15:44, 22 Jul 2010
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