2010.07.22 13:00 - Theme session: "starting at the end"

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    Yaku and Genesis organized this theme session with the title: "starting at the end".




    Pila Mulligan: hi adoro
    adoro Rhapsody: hi pila
    adoro Rhapsody: r u piet hut ?
    Pila Mulligan: hi Yak
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good day/evening everyone
    Pila Mulligan: no, Piet's avi is named Pema
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: good day
    Pila Mulligan: oh, excuse me, there he is :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Bleu
    Pema Pera: hi everybody!
    adoro Rhapsody: pema is piet hut ?
    Pila Mulligan: didn't see you Pema, hi
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
    Pila Mulligan: and vice versa
    adoro Rhapsody: dutch piet ?
    Pema Pera: me and the Tao . . . .
    adoro Rhapsody: the original
    Pila Mulligan: adoro is also Dutch
    adoro Rhapsody: yes
    adoro Rhapsody: and i like tao also
    Lia Rikugun: hello
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi lia
    Bleu Oleander: hi Lia
    Pema Pera: Hi Lia, Bruce, Eliza!
    adoro Rhapsody: hi lia
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, strange sight here... some are levitating and some are sitting near cushions...
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi, though :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: Hi Arch and Agatha!
    Bleu Oleander: hi Bruce, Eliza
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi bruce, eliza
    adoro Rhapsody: the hop stadium
    Yakuzza Lethecus: arch and agatha
    adoro Rhapsody: hi bruce
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi everybody :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi hihihihiihihi! everyone!
    Agatha Macbeth: brb
    Bleu Oleander: hey Agatha, Arch
    Pila Mulligan: hi bruce, eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: oh my... am mid air. I may have to re log :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Agatha, Arch
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Koya.
    Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya
    Bleu Oleander: hi Gaya
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi koya,blub and gaya :)
    Pema Pera: mhi Gaya!
    Agatha Macbeth: back
    Pema Pera: and Yaku!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: wb
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
    Lia Rikugun: hello hello
    Archmage Atlantis: Koya says 'nice to be seen"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i wonder where gen is
    Pila Mulligan: hi Scathach
    Bleu Oleander: perhaps she's starting at the end :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi scathach
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Scath :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Probably making a dramatic entrance :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello all:)
    adoro Rhapsody: hi scath
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Scàth
    Yakuzza Lethecus: wb eliza
    Pema Pera: hi Scathach and wb Eliza
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i wonder at what point i shall start
    adoro Rhapsody: hi eliza
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: waiting until 1:10 ?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone :))
    Agatha Macbeth: Return of the Liz
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Start at the end, Yaku.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Pila Mulligan: Bruce, what is Ram Dass Day?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i better don´t joke like ,,bye everyone" :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Or in the middle
    Bruce Mowbray: I don't know. It was Blb's idea.
    Lia Rikugun: was thinking the same yaku :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe Ya
    Bleu Oleander: ha! Yaku
    Pema Pera: hi Eos!
    Pila Mulligan: hi Eos
    Archmage Atlantis: Oh, man.....no matter what I do, I nver get to make a dramatic entrance......it is bad enough to be disadvantaged....but to be gay, with no drama......eeks?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yo, Eos.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Gosh, I have given birth to Eos.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Could be Arch
    Eliza Madrigal: quite a feat Gaya :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Eos
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi eos
    adoro Rhapsody: hieos
    Bruce Mowbray: ha ha! You're among friends, Eos.
    Gaya Ethaniel: yeah who would have thought! Hello Eos :)
    Pema Pera: The Earth giving birth to the Sun . . .
    Agatha Macbeth zooms in on Ram Dass
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eos
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: sorry for such an auspicious entrance
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Looks like Karl Marx...
    adoro Rhapsody: Hagen dass
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Blub says: What!? I got the wrong guy??
    Agatha Macbeth: Shucks
    Pila Mulligan: hi Cal
    Bleu Oleander: hi Cal
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi cal
    adoro Rhapsody: hi cal
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Calvino :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Yo, Calvino.
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Calwino
    Pema Pera: hi Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi everyone; I wait for you to appear :)
    Archmage Atlantis: While we wait, .....what is a Rubyist?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well Pema only wears Ruby rather than diamonds etc. :P
    Agatha Macbeth is an Emeraldist
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi morgano and i wonder if gen is comming
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so i´ll start
    Pema Pera: only on Tuesdays, Gaya
    Pila Mulligan: hi morgano
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Morg
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello morgano :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Pema Pera: somebody who likes to write computer programs in the language Ruby, Arch
    morgano Bravin: Hello all
    Archmage Atlantis: In his RL pics, I see no gem stones......
    Archmage Atlantis: Ah
    Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh

    Yaku introduces the idea of "starting at the end" and the question if it is possible to start at the end without having a strong background of contemplative ideas

    Yakuzza Lethecus: since i came to play as being i had my first experiences with different contemplative idea´s
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i often wonder if and how to communicate with ppl who studied contemplative idea´s for decades
    Yakuzza Lethecus: are they more enlightened ?
    Archmage Atlantis: No, Yaku.....only have more data
    Yakuzza Lethecus: how to get a sense on contemplation
    Pila Mulligan: hi Darren
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so during the malta retreat pema talked about ,,starting in the end"
    Archmage Atlantis: enlightenment is something that does not require data
    Darren Islar: hi everyone :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi darren :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Darren
    Pema Pera: hi Darren!
    adoro Rhapsody: hi dar
    Yakuzza Lethecus: which is also a tricklish subject for me since ,,what is what we are looking for?"
    Calvino Rabeni: By the way, could someone with a good graphics please take a pic or two of this meeting, to attach to the chat log?
    Lia Rikugun: (will do)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: having little information on individual contemplative idea´s and little own experiences make it extremely hard to ,,imaginate a start in the end"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so what is it what one is grasping for, is everything already there ?
    adoro Rhapsody: nature is perfect
    Yakuzza Lethecus: do we need to know 159 koan´s to know about ? until we have a sense ?
    Pila Mulligan: hi Ewan
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so that´s how i would like to start the discussion :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi ewan
    Pema Pera: hi Ewan!
    Agatha Macbeth waves to Ewan quietly
    Eliza Madrigal: wow Yakuzza, what a wonderful frame
    Ewan Bonham: Hi folks!
    Darren Islar: hi Ewan
    Archmage Atlantis: To me, a good start, Yaku
    Pema Pera: thank you, Yaku
    Eos Amaterasu: Perhaps in this case "start at the end" is the one koan to know or to be
    adoro Rhapsody: good starting point
    adoro Rhapsody: reversed discussing


    is there any path? the end = the beginning??

    Pema Pera: one way to approach it is to ask what the alternative could be -- how could we not start at the end? What would it mean to walk a long path? from where to where? to get what?
    Ewan Bonham: Are you saying Pema, it is more the journey than the desination?
    Pema Pera: not quite
    Pema Pera: although that is interesting in itself
    Ewan Bonham: oh
    Archmage Atlantis: I have to interject
    Lia Rikugun: i had a thought about the starting at the end: That I never feel being at the end, I always feel being at the beginning
    Calvino Rabeni: It often happens that way in conversation - as one assumes nothing is understood yet and you don't know if you can "get there" with the communication
    Pema Pera: rather not even the journey -- since we are already there
    Archmage Atlantis: We are at the end
    Archmage Atlantis: it is seeing the journey
    Ewan Bonham: Oh IC
    Pema Pera: but Lia can be right too!
    adoro Rhapsody: every end is a new beginning
    Pema Pera: this "end" is beyond all oppositions
    Pema Pera: beyond all dualities
    Darren Islar: how do we start there Pema?
    Gaya Ethaniel: But studying and familiarising with practice is 'walking on the path'. To say that everything is perfect and there is nothing to do is misguiding. The phrase itself implies a kind of path, 'start' & 'end'.
    Archmage Atlantis: I think "multiplicites" these days
    adoro Rhapsody: me too
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes arch same here
    Ewan Bonham: Yes, Gaya
    adoro Rhapsody: there are different ways and different ends
    Ewan Bonham: too simplistic
    morgano Bravin: maybe the end is the begining of the path without struggle?
    Pema Pera: perhaps not starting, Darren, but being there
    Gaya Ethaniel: Seeing and manifesting are different ... I guess 'starting at the end' refers more to the seeing part.
    Darren Islar: how?
    Ewan Bonham: hmmmmorg
    Pema Pera: already
    Darren Islar: I don't know how?
    Archmage Atlantis: Agree Gaya, seeing and manifesting are different


    "whatever we practice we really don't go anywhere"

    Eos Amaterasu: it's probably easier to be "at the end" than it is to "see the end"
    adoro Rhapsody: involutin, the way back
    Eos Amaterasu: giving up seeing the end is a kind of beginner's mind
    Eos Amaterasu: which allows the n aivete tobe the end
    Pema Pera: I don't know how either . . . so we can drop our concerns of wanting to know how
    Darren Islar: because if it is that easy, why aren't we at the end or know we are there
    Pila Mulligan: maybe the idea is to suggest that whatever we practice we really don't go anywhere
    Gaya Ethaniel: Be at the end yes same as seeing at the end to me ... what by manifestation I didn't mean resting at the end.
    Darren Islar: maybe that is the path?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Embodying rather ...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: welcome slave
    Darren Islar: hi Greybeard
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: hi everyone
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: hi darren
    Archmage Atlantis: Some of you think the singularity will solve this......and I am no slave
    Lia Rikugun: not seeing the end but being there i need to think about this,
    Agatha Macbeth watches Slave kneel ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Slave, will give you a note about our topic today
    adoro Rhapsody: hi
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: thx
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i did that already


    any particular world view? what exactly is starting at the end? > "stay in that dropping"

    Gaya Ethaniel: So my question to clarify would be, starting at the end refers to a world view?
    Archmage Atlantis: Nor were the people my ggggrandparents seemed to own
    Eos Amaterasu: probably easier to give up any world view as it comes up than to figure out the "end" world view
    Archmage Atlantis: It was physical ownership, not spiritual ownershi
    Pema Pera: yes, the "end" is the end of duality . . .
    Eos Amaterasu: then, as Lia suggests, we're always at the beginning,not knowing ahead of time
    Darren Islar: how is that easier Eos, since we seem to be clinging on to those views and don't know any better?
    Bleu Oleander: what is meant by duality?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well I do wonder ... the view implied by 'starting at the end'. There is a view there.
    Eos Amaterasu: as soon as you notice such a view,you've already dropped it
    Eos Amaterasu: stay in that dropping
    Lia Rikugun: end and beginning is the same place :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, a view of Completeness
    Pema Pera: concepts, words, anything in terms of opposites, this vs. that
    Darren Islar: in my 'view' you have labeled it, not dropped it
    Pema Pera: and there is no viewer . . .
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes that's what I read in too Eliza.
    Eliza Madrigal: viewerless view
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's strage for me to say there is no view implied in 'starting at the end'.


    I like the next statement and want to emphasize it and I need to rethink this: "as soon as you label it your are not longer absorbed in it"  (as soon as you give it a name you make it different from yourself, it is put in a catergy somewhere outside)

    Eos Amaterasu: as soon as you label it your are not longer absorbed in it
    Pema Pera: yes, words miss the point, but that's all we can do: using words to point beyond words
    Eos Amaterasu: though you may get absorbed in the label
    Darren Islar: right Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: So ... why label 'start' &'end'?
    Darren Islar: then how do we get beyond words?
    Eos Amaterasu: because we've already labelled those
    morgano Bravin: a completeness that allows freedom to drop without trying,,and a new openness in absorbtion of what is around,,and real
    adoro Rhapsody: than we can also label middle
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good question gaya, i also think of the end as ,,just be"
    Pema Pera: yes, without trying is the key
    Yakuzza Lethecus: where it leads back to no time
    Pila Mulligan: Lao Tse: "Like a newborn babe before it learns to smile, I am alone, without a place to go."
    Eos Amaterasu was picturing Pila as a newborn.... :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: [13:29] Eos Amaterasu: because we've already labelled those
    Archmage Atlantis: It is rare to be here with you, Pila.......it is 7:30 AM in Hawaii?
    Eliza Madrigal: innocent Pila...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Could you say more about this point please Eos?
    Eos Amaterasu: "end' and "beginning" are our labels
    adoro Rhapsody: i have to go tomorrow ends my working week and starts my holiday for 2 weeks.
    Eos Amaterasu: so they can serve as convenient book-ends, and create a cute little koan
    Eliza Madrigal: have a lovely holiday adoro, thanks for coming
    adoro Rhapsody: bye
    Lia Rikugun: have nice holidays adoro
    Eos Amaterasu: but those are just 2 of many bookends, and 1 of many koans
    morgano Bravin: bye adoro
    Bruce Mowbray: Happy Holiday, adoro!
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Ade
    morgano Bravin: have a nice holiday
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yep so it may not resonate with everyone.
    Darren Islar: by doro
    Pema Pera: indeed, Gaya
    Eos Amaterasu: There's also other approaches to the end and the beginning
    Eos Amaterasu: Bruce and I were talking yesterday about how we know something is "trash" (trash = not the end)
    Eos Amaterasu: we _already_ know when something is not the end, so we must already know something about the end
    Eos Amaterasu: so just stay there
    Eos Amaterasu: but you recognize it more easily through bookends
    Darren Islar: that sounds like the beginning of a method
    Pema Pera: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: There's not just trying and not-trying; there are trying that does not "split" into dualism
    Pila Mulligan: how about the metaphor of a sculptor starting their work ... where do they end?
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Gen!
    Pila Mulligan: hi genesisi
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gen :))
    Darren Islar: can a sculpter end before he begins
    Pema Pera: hi Gen
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi gen
    Darren Islar: hi Gen
    Bleu Oleander: hi Gen
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Gen
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gen:)
    Archmage Atlantis: My simple mind says "I don't know the answer"...my analytical mine says "well make you best gues"....my heart says "do it if it is correct to do"
    Agatha Macbeth: Ouch
    Eliza Madrigal: So glad you made it Gen, no worries
    Pila Mulligan: ending before beginning may not be the idea, Darren
    Eliza Madrigal: I'll giive you a note of the session so far
    Darren Islar: not to me no :)
    Darren Islar: but here we are starting at the end
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi ara
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ara
    Darren Islar: hi Ara :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and claire
    Pila Mulligan: hi CLaire
    Pema Pera: hi Arabella and Claire!
    Calvino Rabeni: I thought the session notecard would say - come to the meeting at 2PM SLT, having already been there :)
    morgano Bravin: Ciao Arabella
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Ara :) hello Clare
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Darren Islar: btw I guess we are deended on a linear time, while we are talking of something quite different
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara, Claire... wow... hard to find everyone to give a note to :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Hard to find cushions too...
    Claire Maskelyne: Damn it...
    Darren Islar: *dependend
    Archmage Atlantis: The force is strong? ( with apologizes to Yoda and Lucas)
    Agatha Macbeth: There's a blue one behind Gaya Clare
    arabella Ella: thanks Eliza!
    Agatha Macbeth: To your left...
    Claire Maskelyne: None of the cushions seem to be working.
    morgano Bravin: take mine,,I am ok standing
    Claire Maskelyne: Well, I suppose I'm here because my existence has been very far from 'playful' recently.
    Lia Rikugun: behind me there is one cushion on the left side
    Eliza Madrigal: we have enough cushions, no worries morgano ... we start from "enough" :))
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: enough cushion over here
    morgano Bravin: :)
    Darren Islar: that is a cussion too :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-) cooler in there, huh?
    Darren Islar: *cushion
    Claire Maskelyne: Thi sin spite of my increasingly frantic efforts to be happier...
    Agatha Macbeth: And wetter...
    Claire Maskelyne: And I know there's something wrong with that as well.
    Eos Amaterasu: Gen, when you've caught up, do you want to spend a few minutes on the theme?
    Archmage Atlantis: Have an orgasim, that always helps Claire....
    Agatha Macbeth: It does?
    Bruce Mowbray: Would that be starting at the end?
    Agatha Macbeth: Some kinda climax eh
    Darren Islar: could be a new beginning
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, it would Bruce
    Eos Amaterasu: Post orgasm is a kind of why go anywhere else state
    genesis Zhangsun: yes I just got caught up thanks




    do you need to study for a long time to become enlightened?  is enlightenment an experience?

    genesis Zhangsun: I guess I would go back to Yaku's question about whether you need to study for decades to "become enlightened"
    genesis Zhangsun: I guess I would throw out there whether enlightenment is an experience
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: an experience by an individual
    Bleu Oleander: a process?
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: well what would be enlightend?
    Bruce Mowbray thinks: If Shakyamuni Buddha had started at the end, he would have saved himself a lot of sitting under the bodhi tree.
    Archmage Atlantis: In my limited experience, enlightenment is a moment of knowing ........the body knows, the mind knows........and, the one thing that separatates it from life in this reality, .......is that the spirit know
    Pila Mulligan: maybe sitting under the bodhi tree was the end
    Calvino Rabeni: Do we hope - starting at the end might be a way to skip all those decades of study / practice?
    Gaya Ethaniel: The narrow sense of enlightenment perhaps doesn't need a 'path' but to be 'in accord with Dao' in one's life, one would need to renew daily ... keep up with it. If that is called path, perhaps there is a sense of linear movement [not progression as such].
    Bruce Mowbray: I agree that it was an end in itself, Pila.


    using words you get trapped, words are just a hint to what is meant

    genesis Zhangsun: enlightenment seems to me to be some sort of ideal, I can feel perfection, I can be perfection but the moment in which I start to describe perfection I am trapped by the duality inherent in the words
    Darren Islar: as all things are
    Darren Islar: the end
    Darren Islar: or the beginning
    Agatha Macbeth: Amen
    Calvino Rabeni: @gen, how does that work - can't you speak witout getting trapped?
    Bruce Mowbray: THIS is it! And THAT! and THAT! and THIS!
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Calvino Rabeni: Must the mind have that hypnotic trapping effect ?
    Darren Islar: hi Zon
    Agatha Macbeth: And the OTHER
    Eliza Madrigal: Hey, Zon :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Really -- THIS is IT!
    Lia Rikugun: hi zon
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zon
    Darren Islar: no it isn't Bruce :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: That gets boring after while Bruce :)
    genesis Zhangsun: yes so I guess thats the "trick" in a way Calvino seeing the traps and not being trapped
    Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Zon
    Bruce Mowbray: THIS is ever-new... How could it get boring?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well chasing after insights I meant.
    genesis Zhangsun: finding freedom of limits
    Bruce Mowbray: off
    Pema Pera: hi Zon!
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Zon


    what is perfection?

    Ewan Bonham: Can i ask , in this context, what do we mean by 'perfection'?
    Bruce Mowbray: Starting at the end means, for me, seeing eternity in this moment.
    Gaya Ethaniel: 'the end'?
    morgano Bravin: reminds me of the mole..under ones feet but out of sight and everyone looking elswhere for something else
    genesis Zhangsun: I guess I meant it as a kinf of completeness
    arabella Ella: who is it that assesses perfection - each one for themselves?
    genesis Zhangsun: *kind
    Pila Mulligan: from the T’ai I Chin Hua Tsung Chih: "The holy science takes as a beginning knowing where to stop, and as an end, stopping at the highest good"
    Calvino Rabeni: Bruce I like that formulation
    Archmage Atlantis: If Wol were here, she would do this.....let me see if I can
    Calvino Rabeni: Can you give a ref to that, Pila?
    Agatha Macbeth: ??
    Bruce Mowbray: Or -- as Ram Dass put it: Being Here Now.
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah
    Ewan Bonham: Yes, bruce
    Archmage Atlantis: Well, gotthe music, just not the dance
    Darren Islar: please Arch can you turn that off
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm wearing my onigokko but nothing is happening. . .
    Agatha Macbeth: Too much lag Arch?
    Eos Amaterasu: stop
    Gaya Ethaniel: I hear dance music ...
    Bruce Mowbray: TY!
    Darren Islar: thanks
    Agatha Macbeth: Too many Avs
    Eos Amaterasu marvels at the power...
    Ewan Bonham: ty cause i was listing to gregorian Chant
    Darren Islar: (the word wan't used)
    Archmage Atlantis: The word? how biblical
    Bruce Mowbray: uh. . . oh. . . .
    Agatha Macbeth: Thought there was a counter under the Pagoda somewhere...
    Eliza Madrigal: Yakuzza, may I ask if what you're been addressing hs been spoken to... perhaps we might focus a bit....
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: i thin enligtenment is looking beyond human desire and fear
    Ewan Bonham: Slave, that feels right as far as it goes..
    Ewan Bonham: Are you saying when suffering ebbs, joy fills in?


    "do we need to know 159 koan´s to know about ?" ( wikipedia: koan ) or is there a fixed set of experiences with which we can say "I got it"?

    Eos Amaterasu: [13:18] Yakuzza Lethecus: do we need to know 159 koan´s to know about ? until we have a sense ?
    Zon Quar: no, 160
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: =P~
    Eos Amaterasu: no experience necessary
    Lia Rikugun: and we believe you becaus eyou know 159 koans...
    Darren Islar: but if we don't do anything we fall back in old patterns
    Gaya Ethaniel: No reading list ... no theories ... especially no thinking.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: actually, i have the issue that i am also not exposed to these subjects for such a long time, i also loose my orientation
    Darren Islar: soI think experience is a great good
    Ewan Bonham: Yak... that is why i am here
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no it´s about a ,,is there a fixed number of verifiable experiences"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: to say ,,you got it", of course not
    Eos Amaterasu: ?
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: Ewan I am not saying that. I am saying that enlightenment is thinking more about the whole of things then your own tiny self
    Gaya Ethaniel: Experiences are by nature sujective. Can they be verified?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yaku, is there some reason to expect that mighyt be the case?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Is that important in this type of exploration?
    Darren Islar: can starting at the end be verified?
    Bruce Mowbray: If I verified my experience, Gaya, would it then be YOUR experience?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Ewan Bonham: Thank you, Slave...but is there anything beyond our 'self'..
    Ewan Bonham: are we not one with all?
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, maybe start with what is a koan... a way to see how much we tend to get trapped in dualism...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no of course not it´s just a feeling that when ppl study for decades, is it even possible to communicate on the same eyeline
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: good point ewan
    Eos Amaterasu: some shared vocabulary can help inbeing extremely precise, which can help in opening things up at the right moment
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Eliza ... use language in a differenet way.
    Darren Islar: My experience is the only thing I've got, so the only thing I can work with. How can I see beyond that?


    maybe enlightenment means someone has "less" of something

    Eliza Madrigal: and we tend to think enlightenment is someone who has 'more' of something... maybe it is less... innocent in that way
    Eos Amaterasu: perhaps, Yakuzza, what we share is not "things" but the crack in everythinbg
    Pema Pera: bye everybody, thanks for a dynamics conversation!
    Eos Amaterasu: *everything
    morgano Bravin: bye dude
    Eos Amaterasu: bye Pema
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Pema :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye Pema
    Lia Rikugun: byd pema
    Darren Islar: bye Pema
    arabella Ella: bye Pema
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: bye pem
    Ewan Bonham: bye, Pema
    Agatha Macbeth: Shalom Pem
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye pem
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Pema.
    Darren Islar: bye Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: bye everyone :)
    Eliza Madrigal: people who have years of 'training' can be obscured by their training... think it is important to see that
    Bleu Oleander: thanks Yaku!
    arabella Ella: bye Bleu
    Lia Rikugun: bye bleu
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bleu :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Bleu
    Pila Mulligan: bye Bleu
    Ewan Bonham: i can attest to that...:)
    Eliza Madrigal: no pedestals :) maybe that's part of starting at the end too...
    morgano Bravin: bye blue,,thanks Yaku,,a taxing session
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye morgano
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: Ewan I think we are one with our groups we think we belong to Human adults, basebal players, hwatever
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and everyone who´s leaving right now
    Ewan Bonham: Slave, yes, seeing beyond the surface roles
    Archmage Atlantis: That was was a tricky catch, Yaku
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Gaya :)
    Lia Rikugun: (I am lesving too, bedtime, please no byebyes :) see you soon)


    I left at this point and will leave the following uncommented

    Darren Islar: bye Gaya
    Pila Mulligan: bye Gaya
    Pila Mulligan: bye Lia
    Pila Mulligan: oos
    Pila Mulligan: oops*
    Agatha Macbeth: Byebye :)
    morgano Bravin: bye anyone that is and has left
    Zon Quar: bye all who leave and stay
    Darren Islar: bye zon
    Eliza Madrigal: When we say 'drop what we have to see what we are' ... we are also talking about starting at the end...
    morgano Bravin: Hello Zon
    Eos Amaterasu listens to Eliza
    Ewan Bonham: eliza, now i get it.
    Darren Islar: I disagree Eliza, because it assumes that when we drop we see who we are
    Darren Islar: I doubt that
    Archmage Atlantis: Eliza is a poet
    Ewan Bonham: Eliza, are you saying...to stop all activity can place me at a spot of total openness?
    Eliza Madrigal: I have a Buddha statue in my garden... sometimes there are weeds in front of his face, but he is always whole
    Archmage Atlantis: Poets take all life into a few words
    Darren Islar: to stop all activity, why ?
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night all:) ciao!!
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Scath :) nice to see you
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: nye
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Scàth
    Darren Islar: nite Scath :)
    Ewan Bonham: darren...stillness
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: bye
    morgano Bravin: nite scath
    Eos Amaterasu: sun-face buddha, moon-faced buddha
    Eos Amaterasu: (another koan)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: happy buddha, sad buddha
    Eos Amaterasu: we buddha,dry buddha
    Eos Amaterasu: *wet
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Archmage Atlantis: Works better with an Asian DNA face, Eos
    Yakuzza Lethecus: wb ara
    Eos Amaterasu examines his base pairs
    Agatha Macbeth: wb Ara
    Ewan Bonham: rag weed...no rag weed buddah
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm reflecting Darren's last point
    Darren Islar: wb Ara
    Eliza Madrigal wonders about how 'stopping all activity' came into play...
    arabella Ella: hiya
    morgano Bravin: is this a buddhist meeting?
    Eos Amaterasu: just try stopping all activity :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: The mind so goes in so many places
    Calvino Rabeni: No not a buddhist meeting
    morgano Bravin: thanks
    Agatha Macbeth: Can't be I'm not a Buddhist
    Archmage Atlantis: "Listen my children, and you shall hear
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: of the midnight ride of Paul Revere"
    Archmage Atlantis: That really was off the chart
    Eliza Madrigal: the thing is, where the activity is coming from, Darren?
    Darren Islar: the activity in intself doesn't matter I think
    Eliza Madrigal: Is it coming from completeness, from stillness... staying there... or trying to 'get' somewhere... some thing...
    Ewan Bonham: Yes, Eliza
    Darren Islar: btw I wasn't the one with the question about activity
    Ewan Bonham: Perhaps stopping all frenzied activity...that which interrupts awareness
    Archmage Atlantis: I would say, Darren has a gestalt
    Ewan Bonham: points to myself
    morgano Bravin: for me its helped by not trying to get anywhere anymore
    Darren Islar: how does activity interrupts awareness
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... my question was more open... not aimed at anyone..
    Darren Islar: or should we become aware of our activities
    Eliza Madrigal: but picking up when you pointed last
    Ewan Bonham: I can busy my mind, and miss what is happening around me
    Darren Islar: ok, sorry Eliza
    Darren Islar: interesting
    Ewan Bonham: i guess my mind goes somewhere else other than where I am
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, hard to keep up ... better to give up maybe - hehe:)
    Archmage Atlantis: You all know what butterflies are in English?
    Agatha Macbeth: Mine does that all the time
    Archmage Atlantis: They can be held
    Darren Islar: the question is if there is a relation between activity and awareness, a particular activity
    Darren Islar: I wonder
    Archmage Atlantis: Usually holding them
    Yakuzza Lethecus: welcome aphrodite
    Archmage Atlantis: rubs off the powdery substance that allows them to fly
    Darren Islar: we can use activity though to not be aware, but I doubt it is the activite itself
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Aph!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aprodite :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Aphro
    Eos Amaterasu: it's probably easier to catch awareness in stillness, but awareness is in both stillness and activity; so stillness is like the finger pointing at the moon
    Ewan Bonham: can i be aware when i am doing dishes?
    Darren Islar: hi Phprodite
    Calvino Rabeni: That is a good question Darren. Awareness is a fragmented process
    Eos Amaterasu: I find doing dishes offers lots of transitions, gaps, within which awareness arises
    Ewan Bonham: Yes, eos
    Eliza Madrigal: yes me too... dishes meditation
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: a friend posted something the other day which I liked : “Don't ask what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive, and go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive.” ~Howard Thurman
    Agatha Macbeth loves watching dishes meditate
    Eliza Madrigal snorts
    Eliza Madrigal: heheheh Ag
    Archmage Atlantis: dishes, not so much, watering and feeding the animals that live with me, a lot
    Ewan Bonham: yes, Eliza , the rest flows from that
    Yakuzza Lethecus: can´t we meditate on all automated activities like of course walkingmeditation
    Bruce Mowbray: Steer by Joy. Follow your bliss.
    Eliza Madrigal: dishes meditating reminds me of Bruce's 'being with the storm'
    Calvino Rabeni: yes Yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so dishes,eating
    Eos Amaterasu: both automated activities and those requiring, um, awareness :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Storm always gets in somewhere
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Why a steer, why not a bull, or a cow?
    Agatha Macbeth: A longhorn critter.......yeeeeeeehaaaaaawwwwwwww
    Bruce Mowbray: To serve your own well-being is a gift to the universe.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm partal to longhorns
    Aphrodite Macbain: partial
    Ewan Bonham: Yes, bruce...sems that ties into Eliza's point
    Eliza Madrigal: 'cultivate from the end'
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: so you recognize what makes you come alive... you already know/be that
    Eos Amaterasu: you come home
    Archmage Atlantis: To know my own well-being is to gift those who love me....I understand that more better
    Eliza Madrigal: Be decisve... know what is... see clearly... ;-)))) @ Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: well put, arch.
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: Great topic Yakuzza, and thank you everyone
    Archmage Atlantis: needs to eat tomatoes, beans, rice, cucumbers and apples......Later guys
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: i dont think the universe cares about are well being or cares at all for that matter
    Yakuzza Lethecus: night eliza
    Agatha Macbeth: With chips
    Eliza Madrigal: Gen, nice to see you... sorry about screwy internet
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Liz :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i was just glad that the discussion become stable in itself
    Eos Amaterasu needs to make supper, so family can eat at the end
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    morgano Bravin: somewhere in what you said Arch resonates something beautiful to me
    Darren Islar: bye Eliza, Eos
    Bruce Mowbray: begin with dessert!
    genesis Zhangsun: by ELiza and Eos
    genesis Zhangsun: I am off too
    Ewan Bonham: bye eliza
    Eos Amaterasu: bye gang, thanks yak and gen
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care eos
    Darren Islar: Bye Gen
    genesis Zhangsun: take care Yaku
    Eliza Madrigal: Byeeee hugs
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye gen
    Agatha Macbeth: I'm off to fondle me column loves, sayonara :)
    arabella Ella: bye all those leaving
    Darren Islar: bye Agatha
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone whos leaving again :)
    Ewan Bonham: brb
    morgano Bravin: bye Ags
    morgano Bravin: bye anyone who is leaving
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, anyone who is still here :)
    arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino
    arabella Ella: :)
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: hi cal
    morgano Bravin: Hi Cal
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: have of the logs is about greetings
    arabella Ella: very true
    arabella Ella: and silent pauses too
    Darren Islar: need to go
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: ok dar
    Darren Islar: bye everyone
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: bye
    arabella Ella: bye Darren
    Calvino Rabeni: The logs are raw - the scribe sessions filter out all the hellos and goodbyes
    Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: hmm ok
    Claire Maskelyne: Is the recording off?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: recording is still active
    Yakuzza Lethecus: big brother is sending to the whole world
    Claire Maskelyne: Oh...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: at least today´s guardian will recieve the log
    Yakuzza Lethecus: which is lia, in case you want something out of the log you just need to send a message to lia rikugun
    arabella Ella: shhhhhhhhh
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ah
    Yakuzza Lethecus: meditation in silence
    Eden Haiku: ;)
    Yakuzza Lethecus is sneaking away, bye everyone!
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Yaku.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Yaku
    Aphrodite Macbain: Were you talking about beginning at the end?
    arabella Ella: bye Yaku thanks
    Bruce Mowbray: starting at the end, yes, Aph.
    Calvino Rabeni: Beginning at the end was the session topic for a while
    Bruce Mowbray: Is there meaning in that topic for you, Aph?
    Claire Maskelyne: Goodbye, everyone...
    arabella Ella: bye Claire
    Eden Haiku: Bye everyone :))
    arabella Ella: i must be off bye everyone
    morgano Bravin: bye Arabella
    Bruce Mowbray: Walk in beauty, ara.
    morgano Bravin: sneaks off,,bye everyone
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, morgano!
    Bruce Mowbray: I've had experiences that were so wonderful that I said to myself: THIS is what I have lived my whole life for.
    Bruce Mowbray: It feels like "starting at the end."
    Bruce Mowbray: It's dinnertime here in Ohio -- so I bid Ewan and Calvino goodbue for now.
    Bruce Mowbray: bye.
    Hokon Cazalet: bye =)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
    Calvino Rabeni: How are your studies?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: still a topic going on ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
    Ewan Bonham: nite Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Well...
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night, Ewan
    Aphrodite Macbain: Looks like veryone is leaving.I'm gong home now to do some work!
    Ewan Bonham: And aphrodite
    Ewan Bonham: some activity...:)
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care, Aphrodite :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye

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    Theme session: Starting at the end, pic 2
    670.12 kB19:51, 26 Jul 2010Lia RikugunActions
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    577.33 kB19:51, 26 Jul 2010Lia RikugunActions
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