2010.07.22 19:00 - Contemplation and "Starting at the End"

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     The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    Paradise Tennant: hello bruce how are you :)
    Bruce Mowbray: starting to get a bit sleepy. and U?
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: just in from a long trudge
    Paradise Tennant: feeling tired to but good :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Blub and I are bedazzled - - by your amazing . . . ummm. dress!
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Bruce Mowbray: You wear the coolest things!
    Bruce Mowbray: Have you had a rough day?
    Paradise Tennant: it is a mix really the wonderful design of a friend of mine lunata lupino .. a berlin graphic artist and bits of an outfit by eshiri
    Bruce Mowbray: amazing!
    Paradise Tennant: no good day wrote a long exam .. only spent a few hours in the office and it is absolutely beautiful here
    Bruce Mowbray: OK -- sounds good.
    Bruce Mowbray: I've forgotten where "here" is for you.
    Paradise Tennant: toronto
    Bruce Mowbray: OH yes. I should make a list of everyone's location -- not that it really matters in SL.
    Paradise Tennant: lol often do that in someones profile you can make notes :)
    Paradise Tennant: then if you forget it is right there
    Paradise Tennant: kind of like a sticky note for people
    Bruce Mowbray: really? I didn't realize that one could do that.
    Bruce Mowbray: let me check that out...
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: the my notes section
    Paradise Tennant: handy
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: Got it. You are my very first "note."
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: dog's name is blue
    Paradise Tennant: toronto
    Paradise Tennant: rl buddhist
    Bruce Mowbray: OK -- Yes, I've seen a photo of Blue there.
    Bruce Mowbray: I feel quite honored to have been made a guardian today.
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: you have been adding a lot to the discussion :)
    Bruce Mowbray: You've just "claimed" this session -- and I'm seeing your name of the schedule now.
    Bruce Mowbray: I have a whole lot to learn!
    Bruce Mowbray: on the sched.
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: well
    Paradise Tennant: life long process :)
    Bruce Mowbray: How long have you been coming to PaB, Para?
    Paradise Tennant: i find a learn forget learn ...
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Paradise Tennant: almost a year I think
    Bruce Mowbray: I see.

    Paradise Tennant: between that and the music . .. really what I spend my time on here
    Paradise Tennant: there are lot of very interesting very knowledgeable people in this group
    Paradise Tennant: it is a learning platform for me :)
    Bruce Mowbray: indeed there are.
    Paradise Tennant: sigh I am tired completely missed that :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: how are you tonight :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I've been in SL only four months, and this is without a doubt the most fascinating group I've been a part of.
    Paradise Tennant: yes maxine pema stim ..storm frankly everyone adds so much to the moment :)
    Bruce Mowbray: No problem, Paradise. Actually, I was so fascinated by your fish that I wasn't doing much else during the break.
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: I've not yet met Stim .
    Paradise Tennant: sl can take fashion .. to .. fanciful .. realms
    Bruce Mowbray: only heard that folks "missed" him/her.
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: has sp;ent his whole life in practise as I understand and of course there is the book !
    Bruce Mowbray: Pema's book, yes.
    Paradise Tennant: no Time Space Knowledge
    Bruce Mowbray: I've spent most of this day writing to an inmate in a state prison here.
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh! That's Stim's book?
    Paradise Tennant: well he wrote it with Tarthank Tulka
    Paradise Tennant: tarthang tulku
    Paradise Tennant: my aplogies
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Bruce Mowbray: Mmmmm. I shall look forward to meeting him.
    Bruce Mowbray: So. . . a lot of the folks who come here identify with Buddhism.
    Paradise Tennant: I have been reading it ..
    Bruce Mowbray: or use Buddhist methods...
    Paradise Tennant: kind of a book you need to spend your life on
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Paradise Tennant: some
    Bruce Mowbray: I understand.
    Bruce Mowbray: I enjoy reading a good book several times --
    Bruce Mowbray: finding that each time I am a different person who is reading.
    Bruce Mowbray: especially some of the "spiritual work" books.
    Bruce Mowbray: as you say, learning and relearning and un-learning all the time.
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: OK please tell me something.
    Paradise Tennant: every thought or action changes you
    Bruce Mowbray: What if I were not here tonight?
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: could you just call it a day and go to bed...
    Bruce Mowbray: or are you expected to stay here through the whole session?
    Paradise Tennant: I would sit usually for the hour with my fish :)
    Paradise Tennant: not everyone does
    Bruce Mowbray: cool.
    Paradise Tennant: people sometimes come and go as their schedule allows
    Bruce Mowbray: How's Blue tonight?
    Paradise Tennant: he is creaky
    Paradise Tennant: must have had a hard run at the beach this afternoon
    Bruce Mowbray: mmmm. creaky.
    Bruce Mowbray: Blue's an older dog?
    Paradise Tennant: 14
    Paradise Tennant: 13
    Bruce Mowbray: My dog Bear is "only" 10.
    Paradise Tennant: smies
    Bruce Mowbray: he still bounds through the soybean field like a deer, though.
    Paradise Tennant: blue is have a crump liver treat :) tail is all awag
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: Good evening, Calvino.
    Paradise Tennant: hiya cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening mate :)
    Bruce Mowbray: How's life on the Left Coast?
    Calvino Rabeni: Bear's a handsome one
    Bruce Mowbray is wondering how Cal knows that.
    Bruce Mowbray: mmmm.. maybe that video of the tree felling?
    Paradise Tennant: has never met a dog that was not visually appealing :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, ... but I admit, it is rare
    Bruce Mowbray: ahhh.. Me neither, come to think of it.
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: so what shall be the discourse tonight :)
    Paradise Tennant: the debate ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Debate?

    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: well :) what shall explore
    Paradise Tennant: *we
    Calvino Rabeni: I was considering (a) Contemplation, and (b) contemplating "Starting at the End"

    Note:  That was the topic of the theme session earlier today at 2010.07.22_13:00.

    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: contemplation as upaya. . . ?
    Bruce Mowbray: starting at the end. . . as upaya?
    Bruce Mowbray: "slillful means".
    Paradise Tennant: smiles works with people :) with situations .. with your self or no self
    Paradise Tennant: actually a great topic
    Bruce Mowbray: I first encountered the concept of contemplation through Thos. Merton's book, New Seeds of Contemplation.
    Bruce Mowbray: I did not realize that what I'd already been doing through Eastern mysticism was "contemplative."
    Paradise Tennant: listens
    Bruce Mowbray: that's pretty much was contemplation is, for me: listening.
    Bruce Mowbray: what.
    Calvino Rabeni: I hadn't heard the term, so I googled http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upaya
    Calvino Rabeni: but that seems a fair general description of one idea about contemplation
    Bruce Mowbray: "skill in means" -- a good article; will bookmark it.
    Calvino Rabeni: I think there are a lot of principles involved in skillful means
    Calvino Rabeni: it is a subtle art
    Bruce Mowbray: please say more, Cal.
    Calvino Rabeni: By principle, I mean something generally true, in a practical sense
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe that is too obvious to need remarking
    Bruce Mowbray: good to be clear about terms, though.
    Calvino Rabeni: occasionally being reminded of such can help increase the skill
    Calvino Rabeni: well, terms are not a high priority as a principle
    Calvino Rabeni: but they help a little if they lead to better focus
    Calvino Rabeni: but as we know they can also lead in the other direction
    Bruce Mowbray: what does "skillful means" direct you toward?
    Paradise Tennant: perception is :) the ability to communicate in a way others understand .. or are ready for .. and maybe to think internally .. in a manner that progresses
    Calvino Rabeni: good stuff
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'll get back to that in a minute - gotta distraction - go ahead :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm all for good stuff.
    Paradise Tennant: nods me too
    Bruce Mowbray: np.
    Bruce Mowbray: I will distract myself. . . empathetically with youse.
    Bruce Mowbray: Blub is distracted by Para's fish.
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: well .. there is so much wearable art here . that is one of my distractions :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Upaya is the name of the Zen Center in New Mexico -- that oan Halifax is the Roshi of.
    Bruce Mowbray: Joan.
    Bruce Mowbray: they have excellent podcasts.
    Bruce Mowbray: a vast variety of subjects -- all related to "skillful means."
    Calvino Rabeni: There is a kind of dialectic involved - but it doesn't follow conventional western logics
    Bruce Mowbray: an internal dialectic?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, basically, a contemplative approach can open up any subject
    Bruce Mowbray: interior dialectic.
    Bruce Mowbray: Did we open up the subject of starting at the end?
    Calvino Rabeni: I wasn't joking the other day when I said, it could be as legitimate to contemplate an ice cream cone as a zen koan

    Bruce Mowbray: Good evening, Eos.
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Paradise Tennant: hiya eos gtsy :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The question of "starting at the end" is opened, if we declare it to be ...
    Eos Amaterasu: hi para cal bruce
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: fish
    Paradise Tennant: smiles it is a kind of aspiration practise
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Eos Amaterasu: fish in air?
    Calvino Rabeni: So before you came, it was proposed to contemplate "starting at the end" and also "contemplation"
    Calvino Rabeni: and we did a little bit of that so far
    Bruce Mowbray: contemplating air-borne fish...
    Bruce Mowbray: of which there are many here tonight.
    Calvino Rabeni: One of the "too obvious to mention but important" principles, is that when you are contemplating subject Q, you are also gaining experience in contemplation, and thus, contemplating contemplation
    Paradise Tennant: smiles I have water for them but it is a little .. hmmm splashy :)
    Eos Amaterasu: "the fish of your subconscious gossip... "
    Paradise Tennant: that appropriately go round in circles
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: contemplating contemplation.
    Calvino Rabeni: Paradise has a whole school - very nice
    Eos Amaterasu: what else would be contemplating it?
    Calvino Rabeni: So a person who is contemplating "starting at the end" is also contemplating "contemplation" at the same time
    Bruce Mowbray: Contemplation seems to have both an active and a passive mode.
    Calvino Rabeni: Indeed
    Calvino Rabeni: It might have multiple unknown modes occurring at once
    Eos Amaterasu: in a way, starting at the end means forgetting about contemplating it
    Eos Amaterasu: just do it
    Paradise Tennant: is there not an element of visualization too
    Paradise Tennant: perceiving someone as already enlightened say
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, if it interferes with the process, that might or might not be helpful
    Paradise Tennant: and acting on that perception
    Eos Amaterasu: I don't think you visualize the end
    Calvino Rabeni: as one would have to check it out
    Calvino Rabeni: which knowing is also contemplative
    Calvino Rabeni: One starting point is - contemplation attempts to have an experience of the true nature of some question
    Calvino Rabeni: it is a way of focusing the question
    Calvino Rabeni: so if "starting at the end" were true, what would it be like to have a direct experience of it?
    Calvino Rabeni: and of course, that could result in a visuialization
    Calvino Rabeni: which would probably be false in some way
    Calvino Rabeni: but, it could move the contemplation in a dialectic way
    Eos Amaterasu: seems like you have to go throuigh a lot of thickets of dialogue and discussion to get to the end
    Calvino Rabeni: by unfolding some new insight
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe, maybe not
    Eos Amaterasu: that's not starting at the end :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: if the thicket is there, then seeing it for what it is may be immediate
    Paradise Tennant: well what is the end :)
    Calvino Rabeni: if it isn't, then you have a thicket to negotiate
    Eos Amaterasu: beautiful friend...
    Eos Amaterasu: this is the end...
    Calvino Rabeni: and that's where the skillful means comes in
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: [we were discussing 'skillful means' before you arrived, Eos]
    Bruce Mowbray: Upaya.
    Calvino Rabeni: Upaya as a provisional definition of contemplation
    Eos Amaterasu: hmm
    Bruce Mowbray: thicket-ness?
    Calvino Rabeni: So, what is "starting at the end"
    Eos Amaterasu: give up all fruition
    Eos Amaterasu: then you are there
    Calvino Rabeni: what is it like to do that, right now?
    Bruce Mowbray: T.S. Eliot: "arriving at the starting place and knowing it for the first time." (?)
    Calvino Rabeni: does it mean, the thicket is also "the end" and complete?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Eos Amaterasu: the thicket has never left the end
    Eos Amaterasu: but moment by moment
    Paradise Tennant: so sitting here in my pyamas .. eating strawberries .. listening to the dog .. whine for more crump's liver bits .. but also knowing I am maybe only a mili second from really geting it .. if somehow .. i open to it .. :) that is the end .. or maybe the begining :)
    Eos Amaterasu: thickets come up
    Eos Amaterasu: micro-moments are fine
    Calvino Rabeni: Does the end imply a new beginning? What happens?
    Bruce Mowbray: no separation(s) between "start" and "end."
    Eos Amaterasu: there's a traditional ditty about logic of ground necessitating path leading to fruition
    Calvino Rabeni: That sounds good ... is it a direct experience in some way?
    Eos Amaterasu: but ultimately the path is realizing the ground as the fruition
    Bruce Mowbray: say more, Eos, please.
    Eos Amaterasu: that is starting at the end
    Calvino Rabeni: that is, is it obviously "true" or a hypothesis?
    Eos Amaterasu: which means the thicket could be the ground
    Eos Amaterasu: it's a possible way of being :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Or, as Cal said before, the ice cream cone could be the fruition.
    Eos Amaterasu: yum
    Bruce Mowbray: There it is!
    Eos Amaterasu: that's the nice thing about the phenomenal world :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Yum. That's it.
    Bruce Mowbray: Ooops... now it's gone. pfffttt!.
    Eos Amaterasu: fickle...

    Bruce Mowbray: none
    Calvino Rabeni: All these ideas about a path ... of starting.... going ... arriving ... what is that?
    Eos Amaterasu hears the hoot owl, an aritifice reminding him of being
    Eos Amaterasu: path? upaya
    Eos Amaterasu: no path: wisdom
    Bruce Mowbray hears owl in SL and owl in his front yard in RL.
    Eos Amaterasu: union of the two: you
    Eos Amaterasu: the world rolls up your path in front of you...
    Calvino Rabeni: That path... is there a change over time, due to having done "practice"?
    Calvino Rabeni: Like the zen story of the shogun and the calligrapher, you know it?
    Bruce Mowbray: nope.
    Eos Amaterasu listens
    Paradise Tennant: everything is practice :)
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, Paradise: it needs not reason
    Calvino Rabeni: everything is practice in some way
    Bruce Mowbray also listens.
    Calvino Rabeni: but it seems everything could be different qualities of practice
    Calvino Rabeni: The story ...

    The shogun in Japan commissioned a calligraphy - maybe an Enso circle, from a famous and regarded artist, a true Zen master supposedly
    He waited a long time, and sent word in inquiry, and heard "almost done"
    He got more impatient...
    One day he went to the artist and said - I've been waiting a long time, where's my painting?
    The calligrapher grabbed his brush, dipped it into the ink, moved over the rice paper in a quick gesture ...
    and there! a masterpiece!
    The shogun saw it and was quite impressed.
    But he was still somewhat annoyed - "Why did you wait so long? Why did I have to come here, and it's not yet ready?"
    In answer, the calligrapher opened a nearby cabinet. Out fell a huge stack of "enso" paintings and fluttered to the floor.

    Paradise Tennant: what are enso s
    Eos Amaterasu: circle
    Calvino Rabeni: Zen brush circles, the quality of which is said to express the full consciousness of the master
    Bruce Mowbray: "perfect" circles.
    Eos Amaterasu: kannonji has t-shirts with them
    Calvino Rabeni: they take a moment to draw, and represent a lifetime of practice
    Bruce Mowbray: I made one of my own.
    Eos Amaterasu: that's how each moment is
    Bruce Mowbray: It took a lifetime of practice, of course.
    Paradise Tennant: smiles so a life time of practice to get a moment right :)
    Eos Amaterasu: a lifetime of moments right
    Eos Amaterasu: each enso is perfect
    Calvino Rabeni: One thing I understood about this story is it reflects the different idea of the nature of enlightenment in Soto and Rinzai Zen schools, or something like - gradual vs sudden enlightenment
    Eos Amaterasu: yeah, an old joke between them
    Calvino Rabeni: Right
    Eos Amaterasu: it doesn't matter
    Eos Amaterasu: it's the current nowness that does
    Bruce Mowbray: in keeping with our earlier talk of Upaya, contemplation, and starting at the end...
    Eos Amaterasu: theere was actually no way to get here anyway
    Bruce Mowbray: it's not "perfect enso" as fruition that we're after...
    Bruce Mowbray: but the moment of movement... of being in that moment...
    Bruce Mowbray: of being present with the event.

    The act of an artist producing a product  (a drawing), is presented by this story as a kind of koan.  Where did the masterpiece come from?  It came in the moment, as an expression of the full Being of the master in just that moment, with no sense of past, future, or goal  - but it had something to do with the practice, the thousands of previous drawings by that Master... so although practice doesn't create enlighenment directly, or constitute it, but, the discipline prepares for its suddenly coming into the moment...

    Calvino Rabeni: There's a possible mistake to tell people who want to be on a spiritual path, something that implies, they can dispense with practice
    Calvino Rabeni: but the contemplation process is, be alert to the sudden insight, but don't otherwise lose focus on the practice
    Eos Amaterasu: even enjoying it
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, enjoyment is a very good sign I think
    Eos Amaterasu: the best answer is Suzuki Roshi's: you don't practice to attain enlightenment; but because you are already enlightened, you practice

    Calvino Rabeni: That is a kind assumption
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe a hypothetical
    Calvino Rabeni: if you define yourself as already enlightened and allow to believe it, it may result in an insight that wouldn't have happened by carrying the assumption of ignorance
    Bruce Mowbray: I've always associated "happiness" with contemplation -- I don't mean "pleasure," of course. but happiness, joy.
    Paradise Tennant: the dividing line between buddhist schools too
    Eos Amaterasu: joy is often associated with discipline :-)

    Eos Amaterasu: I think that comes part of questioning assumptions
    Eos Amaterasu: "already enlightened" is a heavy burden to live up to: I don't think starting at the end requires that
    Eos Amaterasu: it is about the assuming that Calvino mentioned
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree, if it seems a burden, it is a hindrance
    Eos Amaterasu: that's what Pema calls the "if koan"
    Eos Amaterasu: what if we dropped saying "if"?
    Eos Amaterasu: (that's my version - don't remember the exact words...)
    Calvino Rabeni: If we didn't have if....
    Calvino Rabeni: One way is to allow many more things to be true all at once
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Eos Amaterasu: no ifs, ands,or buts
    Calvino Rabeni: and I don't think that unrealistic
    Eos Amaterasu: see what happens
    Paradise Tennant: well different versions of now
    Calvino Rabeni: different possibilties
    Paradise Tennant: viewing it as more plastic
    Eos Amaterasu: things seem to be more flexible than we initially think
    Calvino Rabeni: oh yes
    Calvino Rabeni: the mind, that is
    Calvino Rabeni: they might be true together, or in different possible worlds
    Eos Amaterasu: plastic fantastic...
    Calvino Rabeni: But, it doesn't mean, arbitrary fantasy possibility
    Eos Amaterasu: no, it requires true dialog, in a way
    Calvino Rabeni: the forms and limitations of the world carry their own lessons
    Eos Amaterasu: karma
    Paradise Tennant: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Pema wrote an article years ago on "limits" - it was rather abstract I felt, but interesting to consider
    Eos Amaterasu: re starting at the end
    Eos Amaterasu: I think one of the best paths, paradoxically
    Eos Amaterasu: is starting at the beginning
    Eos Amaterasu: the true beginng
    Eos Amaterasu: where are we coming from?
    Calvino Rabeni: I consider that worth entertaining
    Calvino Rabeni: Indeed Eos
    Paradise Tennant: what is the true beginnning?
    Eos Amaterasu: your original face before your mother was born
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: The paradox is to "start from here"
    Eos Amaterasu: true beginning is not pre- conception
    Eos Amaterasu: conception in that sense is true beginning
    Eos Amaterasu: not "next thing", but "first thing"
    Calvino Rabeni: One thing I believe, is in the practice of contemplation, it isn't useful to stubbornly throw oneself at a question ...
    Calvino Rabeni: As a matter of skillful means, the issue is - whether the contemplation is working or not
    Eos Amaterasu: ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Much to be with in this. Being "first thought." But am now to bed.
    Calvino Rabeni: I claimed the log, by para's request
    Eos Amaterasu: in a sense that's also starting at the end
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Para, Cal, Eos.
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye Bruce
    Paradise Tennant: good nite bruce :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for being here Bruce
    Paradise Tennant: thank you
    Bruce Mowbray: G'night everyone. Be well.
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Paradise Tennant: namaste
    Eos Amaterasu: to do the contemplation with no ulterior motives, soto speak
    Eos Amaterasu: rinzai speak :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes I agree, that is very important Eos
    Calvino Rabeni: for instance, an ulterior motive might be, to avoid practice
    Calvino Rabeni: get to the answer, the end, in a hurry so to speak
    Eos Amaterasu: yeah, peak ahead :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: resolve some feeling of incompleteness, or impatience
    Calvino Rabeni: grasp an answer, etc.
    Eos Amaterasu: yeah, there's always this nagging anxiety
    Paradise Tennant: like reading the last page of a mystery first
    Calvino Rabeni: And yet, how can one stay "on purpose"
    Calvino Rabeni: without those conventional motivations?
    Eos Amaterasu feels like in an R Crumb cartoon

    Editor's note:  That is an evocative comment... the controversial American underground cartoonist R Crumb drew comics that reflected the intensity of the culture at a time when angst and nihilism were swirling together with the newly-popular imports of Eastern religious ideas.  More recently he turned his gaze to Christianity and did a complete illustration of the Book of Genesis (video interviews).


    Appreciating  R Crumb cartoons as an appearance of Being... they suggest the underlying sense of anxiety that people can bring to the things they do, sometimes including the idea of a spiritual path, when it carries a sense of urgency or a promise of future "salvation".  An intense, and self-parodying image of this by R Crumb is here.

    Calvino Rabeni: I like that image, Eos
    Calvino Rabeni: I felt it during the break
    Eos Amaterasu: maybe if it's the end it needs no purpose
    Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't.  But still, ....
    Eos Amaterasu: Well,must also depart to bed: thank you Calvino and Paradise....
    Calvino Rabeni: some other purpose may distract
    Paradise Tennant: smiles thanks eos .. nice to see you :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night, Eos :)
    Paradise Tennant: do you find yourself changing cal through all this .. focused thought ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but how can one know - if things are different, how much that was part of it
    Calvino Rabeni: But I do assume the practice has been effective
    Calvino Rabeni: How does anyone know if their practice is worthwhile?
    Calvino Rabeni: Lots of ways I suppose
    Paradise Tennant: sure
    Paradise Tennant: often find
    Paradise Tennant: there is a feeling of joy
    Paradise Tennant: of rightness
    Paradise Tennant: to some moments
    Paradise Tennant: smiles well
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I find the same, and see it as a sign
    Paradise Tennant: I should be to bed or tomorrow morning will feel wrong :)
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: Paradise
    Paradise Tennant: thanks kindly cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Sleep / dream well :)
    Paradise Tennant: really appreciate you taking the log .. what I thought was my email address just bounced back on my blackberry :)
    Paradise Tennant: and you sleep well .. dream of the end the beginning and a happy middle :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, sure glad to do it
    Calvino Rabeni: heheh


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