2010.07.23 13:00 - sillyness but unpleasant silence for me

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Yakuzza Lethecus. The comments are by Yakuzza Lethecus.

    //I struggled a bit with silence during my voicesession and in my guardiansession i have an issue with silence since i fear that those ppl whom have a full schedule and deep knowledge of the things don´t come back and share when silence goes through the circle.

    Pila Mulligan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJeJodoZgew
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Qt.
    Pila Mulligan: a favorite Hawaiian chant -- gt
    Pila Mulligan: greeting the sun
    Pila Mulligan: hi QT
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt :)
    Liza Deischer: hi QT
    Qt Core: Hi all
    Bleu Oleander: hi Qt
    Eden Haiku: Sounds great Pila, can you sing t to us live?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Wonderful!!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: nice
    Bleu Oleander: very nice!
    Pila Mulligan: Hawaiin greeting to the sun
    Bruce Mowbray: I hear you well.
    Pila Mulligan: hi adoro
    Eliza Madrigal: Hiadoro
    adoro Rhapsody: hi
    Yakuzza Lethecus: welcome adoro
    Bleu Oleander: hi adoro
    Bertram Jacobus: hello adoro
    Qt Core: Hi adoro
    Liza Deischer: hi Adoro
    adoro Rhapsody: hi all
    Pila Mulligan: hi druth
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, adoro.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth :)
    adoro Rhapsody: i hear different voices
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, druth.
    druth Vlodovic: hi guys
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey druth
    Bertram Jacobus: hy druth :-)
    Qt Core: on friiday before the regular session we have a voice hour, adoro
    Qt Core: hi druth
    Bruce Mowbray: THANKS, Yaku!
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Pila Mulligan: nice idea to have voice
    Eliza Madrigal: ::: applause :::
    Yakuzza Lethecus hides
    Pila Mulligan: ditto
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Bert. Have a fine weekend.
    Pila Mulligan: bye Bert
    --BELL--
    Eliza Madrigal: woo hoo... party time...
    Eden Haiku: Here we are sliding into written words...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    adoro Rhapsody: ja
    Bleu Oleander: always hard to do
    Eden Haiku: Ah Eliza starts dancing ?
    Qt Core: dropping the mic on the keyboard
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Eliza Madrigal: dancing in the drop
    Eden Haiku: Took off the headset, yeee!!
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, it IS strange, isn't it
    Eden Haiku: A silent world, like swiming under water....
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, or lift off in a plane
    Qt Core: for me it has two very opposite feeling
    Liza Deischer: hi Agatha
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :)
    Liza Deischer: hi Ewan
    Eden Haiku: yes Qt?
    Bleu Oleander: hi Agatha
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ewan :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Ay up voice lovers
    Eden Haiku: Hey Agatha ;))
    Agatha Macbeth: How's yer mikes?
    Qt Core: losing something, the not subtler but more direct emotional part
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Ewan. Hi, Aggs!
    Eliza Madrigal: gosh, difficult to go but I must... Have a wonderful session everyone :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care eliza
    Bleu Oleander: have to go too ..... bye all :)
    Agatha Macbeth waves to Liz
    Eliza Madrigal: bye for now
    Qt Core: but gaining a better way to express mysef and understand others as i'm much better on text than on voice
    Eden Haiku: Yes, losing the emotional part yes (I always write "loose" but I mean "lose"
    Agatha Macbeth: And Bleu
    Qt Core: bye bleu
    Eden Haiku: Bye Eliza and Bleu :0
    Eden Haiku: Yes, it is more comfortable in writing in a way...
    Qt Core: (most of all as there is the backspace key) ;-)
    Eden Haiku: And , by the way, I have some writing to do. I will leave before the party kicks in...Thanks everyone , bowing to you Yakusan, have a nice week end everyone :))
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eden
    Pila Mulligan: bye Eden
    Liza Deischer: bye Eden
    Agatha Macbeth: Au revoir Edie
    adoro Rhapsody: bye eden
    Qt Core: bye eden, have fun
    Liza Deischer: ah yes party, I mean no :))
    Liza Deischer: so I'll be off too
    Qt Core: bye Liza
    adoro Rhapsody: bye
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Liza
    Pila Mulligan: bye
    Agatha Macbeth: onigokko
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i was thinking of it :)
    Agatha Macbeth: And onigokko...
    Agatha Macbeth: stop
    Yakuzza Lethecus: druth you got one of these ? :)
    druth Vlodovic: no
    Agatha Macbeth: Bet she soon will have
    Yakuzza Lethecus: did one drop an onigokko ?
    adoro Rhapsody: thnx
    druth Vlodovic: ok, now I just have to avoid people saying the magic word in casual conversation :)
    Bruce Mowbray: stop
    adoro Rhapsody: its on my pelvis
    Agatha Macbeth: And the onigokko
    adoro Rhapsody: yes
    Agatha Macbeth: Riiight
    Yakuzza Lethecus: onigokko
    adoro Rhapsody: wow
    adoro Rhapsody: its crazy !!!
    Agatha Macbeth: Sure is
    Yakuzza Lethecus: チョコレイト・ディスコ ♪
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Chokoreito Disco ♪
    druth Vlodovic: we missed QT :)
    Agatha Macbeth: We always do
    Agatha Macbeth: Or he misses us
    Yakuzza Lethecus: stop
    Bruce Mowbray: whew!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: there is also one for the eye
    Agatha Macbeth: Eye eye
    Yakuzza Lethecus: even tho those pigtails are cute :)
    Agatha Macbeth likes Mick's pink one
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    --BELL--
    Yakuzza Lethecus: adoro is gone :(
    Pila Mulligan: bye adoro
    Agatha Macbeth: Gone where?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: does anyone have reflections on todays time session or other topics in mind ?
    Agatha Macbeth: Time session?
    Agatha Macbeth looks puzzled
    Agatha Macbeth feels puzzled too
    Bruce Mowbray: This morning at 6 slt.
    Agatha Macbeth: Now you tell me...
    Bruce Mowbray: So much has happened since that session. . . I'll need to read the log to remember. . .
    Agatha Macbeth: Mwe too :p
    Agatha Macbeth: -w
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi hokon :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Hokon :)
    Qt Core: Hi Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: ☻
    Yakuzza Lethecus: nice to have you back after a few month :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Pila Mulligan: hi Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Agatha Macbeth: Live long and prosper
    Hokon Cazalet: lol
    Yakuzza Lethecus: qt: you don´t have the proper outfit do you ?
    Agatha Macbeth: He has the Borg cube
    Hokon Cazalet: !
    Agatha Macbeth looks round for Solid snake
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, but i think the federation wasn´t able to defend themselv against the borg at the time in which hokon´s uniform was used, that would be unfair :P
    Qt Core: the borg cube is still on repair
    Agatha Macbeth: Wonder who'll be the first to say 'Resistance is futile'?
    Qt Core: it has some gravitational problems and can't stay parallel to the floor
    Agatha Macbeth: Jeez
    Agatha Macbeth: That really is a gravitational problem
    Agatha Macbeth: Looks like scotty beamed her up
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: whoa...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i was just looking for the pilot seat
    Agatha Macbeth: Send for the away team
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: all power to hull plating
    Agatha Macbeth: wb Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: ty
    Yakuzza Lethecus: wb hokon
    Agatha Macbeth: Did the Klingons get you?
    Qt Core: wb Hokon
    Hokon Cazalet: lol
    Hokon Cazalet: they tried
    Agatha Macbeth: Aww
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i first learned where the word sabotage came from through startrek VI !
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah...
    Hokon Cazalet: lol
    druth Vlodovic: who says TV isn't educational :)
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Agatha Macbeth: Hollywood?
    Pila Mulligan needs to slip off to RL -- nice to visit, bye for now
    Hokon Cazalet: bye pila =)
    Qt Core: bye Pila
    Agatha Macbeth: Aloha Pila take care
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye pila
    Bruce Mowbray: THANKS, Pila!
    druth Vlodovic: so, Yakuzza, are you going to give us the cole's notes on the time session?
    --BELL--
    Yakuzza Lethecus: cole´s ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2010/07/2010.07.23_06%3a00_-_Time_Session_3
    Agatha Macbeth: You can be the cole man Yaku
    Hokon Cazalet: onigokko
    Yakuzza Lethecus: stop
    Hokon Cazalet: lol
    Agatha Macbeth: You already gave me one Yaku :)
    Agatha Macbeth: aflac
    Agatha Macbeth: Arrigato
    Bruce Mowbray: sos sweet ;-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no applause :(
    Hokon Cazalet: aw
    Agatha Macbeth: Kawaii :)
    druth Vlodovic: I'm off :)
    druth Vlodovic: have fun all
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye off :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care druth
    Qt Core: bye druth
    Hokon Cazalet: bye =)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, actually it´s really kinda hard to get into a serious topic right now, so what was the last thing you guys where doing before the pab session ?
    Agatha Macbeth: I was at Science Friday
    Agatha Macbeth: Listening to oil spills
    Bruce Mowbray: i like Ira Flato -- listed to him for years.
    Qt Core: watching some tv after a heavy dinner
    Bruce Mowbray: listened on NPR.
    Agatha Macbeth: Why heavy QT?
    Qt Core: i got a little carried away while oin the chinese take away ;-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes, that can happen with chinese food
    Agatha Macbeth: And Indian even more so...
    Qt Core: luckily indian take away havent come here yet (japan and midfdle eastern only)
    Agatha Macbeth: Still sounds good :)
    Qt Core: hi aphrodite
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Aph!
    Agatha Macbeth: Howdy Aphro
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi aphrodite
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi
    Aphrodite Macbain: I built a structrue!
    Agatha Macbeth: Whoa
    Agatha Macbeth: Big?
    Aphrodite Macbain: well, wierd
    Bruce Mowbray: where, Aph?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I took a lesson at Caledon college and went to a sand box and practiced.
    Bruce Mowbray: cool!
    Aphrodite Macbain: then I went to yoga in RL
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, aggs.
    Aphrodite Macbain: busy morning
    Agatha Macbeth waves
    Agatha Macbeth: Sounds like it...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am curious, how medative do you see yoga ?
    Aphrodite Macbain: hello everyone how did the live chat go?
    --BELL--
    Yakuzza Lethecus: do you do the poses habitually ?
    Aphrodite Macbain: me? it can be meditative if you let it or it can simply be a stretching and strengthening exercise with funny clothes
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I find it calming, focussing andstrengthening
    Bruce Mowbray: I do the sun salutation every morning.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Helps me meditate
    Aphrodite Macbain: excellent
    Bruce Mowbray: helps me wake up.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the voicechat was ok, right now i am struggeling a bit with the silence in the sillysession
    Hokon Cazalet: !
    Aphrodite Macbain: Sun saluations kind of wake up every part of you
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello again Cal
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey cal
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, Yaku. I listened carefully as you walked about your uncomfortableness with the silence.
    Bruce Mowbray: talked.
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi eveyone :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: hey - look what you have in your had Yaku!
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Cal.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Can you play it?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I have one too!
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-) as does Bruce I see
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hokon: i gave you one right ?
    Aphrodite Macbain: we could be an orchestra
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Yakuzza Lethecus: cal, come on :)
    Bruce Mowbray: -)
    Qt Core: wear your, aphro
    Yakuzza Lethecus: grup pressure :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Wear his aphro?
    Aphrodite Macbain: well OK hheee
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: wearing the tamborine cal :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: there
    Yakuzza Lethecus: aflac
    Aphrodite Macbain: OMG Qt you have one as well!
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Aphrodite Macbain: aflac
    Aphrodite Macbain: hahah
    Agatha Macbeth: onigokko
    Aphrodite Macbain: holey moley!
    Aphrodite Macbain: I guess I don't have that one!
    Aphrodite Macbain: aflac
    Agatha Macbeth: Yet
    Bruce Mowbray: I'll do my yoga postures while we simultaneously do two animations...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: stop
    Bruce Mowbray: YIKES!
    Agatha Macbeth: And why not
    Agatha Macbeth: Meep Meep ;P :p:P :p :P
    Yakuzza Lethecus: onigokko
    Aphrodite Macbain: onigokko
    Agatha Macbeth: onigokko
    Yakuzza Lethecus: stop
    Aphrodite Macbain: hheeeh hheeee
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm exhausted. first yoga then htis!
    Aphrodite Macbain: this
    Yakuzza Lethecus: stop
    Aphrodite Macbain: this is all being recorded you know
    Yakuzza Lethecus: stop
    Aphrodite Macbain: sit Yak
    Agatha Macbeth: Ha yaku carries on
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am still running on my screen
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: click on the cushion
    Agatha Macbeth: The one-man onigokko
    Aphrodite Macbain: whew
    Aphrodite Macbain: that was fun
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wish I could hear the music. I lost it again
    Calvino Rabeni: I lost it also
    Aphrodite Macbain: But I can build a sim
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: All of it?
    Qt Core: a god-like feeling ;-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm only jsut beginning but I can reate a shape, colour and texture it, cut it in half, squeeze it, etc
    Calvino Rabeni: stop
    Aphrodite Macbain: make it transparent, [punch a hole in it
    Aphrodite Macbain: hahah
    Bruce Mowbray: That's great, Aph--- You always have a learning curve going.
    Aphrodite Macbain: SL is very broadening
    Aphrodite Macbain: and curvaceous
    Aphrodite Macbain: you're floating Yak
    Aphrodite Macbain: there
    Agatha Macbeth never aw a floating yak before
    Agatha Macbeth: s
    Aphrodite Macbain: hahah
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care and good night everyone
    Hokon Cazalet: bye =)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yesterday I was in a voice call with Yaku, and the viewer crashed, but the voice call didn't disconnect even when SL was not running. I did not know this could happen
    Aphrodite Macbain: Nite yaku must be late 4U
    Aphrodite Macbain: a separate connection I guess
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Yak
    --BELL--
    Bruce Mowbray: The library is about to close, so I must depart.
    Bruce Mowbray: All be well!
    Qt Core: separate executable, an helper program for voice call i suppose
    Qt Core: bye bruce
    Aphrodite Macbain: you too Bruce
    Agatha Macbeth: Nitey nite all, take care
    Aphrodite Macbain: what's that Qt
    Qt Core: and the crash prevented the main program to tell the elper one to die
    Aphrodite Macbain: oh. wierd
    Qt Core: ony hypotesis
    Aphrodite Macbain: the idea of a "helper"
    Calvino Rabeni: Makes sense, Qt
    Aphrodite Macbain: We'' I'm off for a shower. Great playing with you people.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Qt Core: bye aphrodite
    Qt Core: this av is starting to have a mind of its own....
    Hokon Cazalet: !
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Hokon Cazalet: oh wrong window lol
    Calvino Rabeni: I wonder about the aflac sound
    Calvino Rabeni: or what with the tambourine - do you know how it starts?
    Qt Core: you are way too curious ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: What's the cure?
    Qt Core: facts, 1.5 Gb a day
    Calvino Rabeni: But I have a fact allergy :)
    Qt Core: then ideas, somwhat stronger usually
    Calvino Rabeni: aren't they
    Calvino Rabeni: I'll settle for a balanced diet, with a few juicy metaphors as a recommended daily allowance
    Qt Core: the problem is that they sell you both the right ones and the bad ones, with no warning label on them
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, the belly tells
    Calvino Rabeni: and energy feeling
    Calvino Rabeni: the sellers do what's probably *interesting* research on compulsive consumption
    Calvino Rabeni: so I'm curious about it
    Calvino Rabeni: and we can learn a lot from studying snack foods
    Qt Core: like putting an extra high priced bottle in medium priced shelf ? ;-)
    Qt Core: hi Ewan
    Hokon Cazalet: brb rl issue
    Calvino Rabeni: ah, well pricing and display - equally interesting to eliciting feelings of consumption
    Hokon Cazalet: /chat 1
    Hokon Cazalet: arg
    Hokon Cazalet: /chat 0
    Hokon Cazalet: /afk
    Ewan Bonham: Hello
    Calvino Rabeni: It's worked out in detail, all these things about the different price families and how they are to be displayed
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Ewan
    Calvino Rabeni: So there's the cheap one, the medium one, and the deluxe onne
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: and the cheap one is possibly a money-loser all by itself,but it drives buying behavior to the medium one.
    Calvino Rabeni: And the deluxe one isn't that much more, so once having decided to not be cheap, they figure to go the extra bit and get the deluxe one
    Calvino Rabeni: even though they don't need its extra features
    Calvino Rabeni: Since money is involved, some have worked this stuff out in incredible detail
    Calvino Rabeni: and then paradoxically, other marketing is done just by tradition, gut feel
    Calvino Rabeni: All these curious things lurking, under the surface of the simple shopping experience
    Calvino Rabeni: all very curious
    Qt Core: still sometimes i doubt that they do it in the shops i'm used to go as the people loading the shels don't seem to have a real plan usually... or is it planned too
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, I guess that to be true
    Calvino Rabeni: One interesting thing is to see if you can barter, in a non-barter economy - sometimes it does work
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a way to look "inside the machine"
    Calvino Rabeni: where some businesses are planned with mechanized policies, others leave discretion to some managers about the transaction
    Hokon Cazalet: back
    Calvino Rabeni: wb
    Hokon Cazalet: =)
    Qt Core: wb
    Qt Core: while we believe more than ever to be unique we are the most categorized ever
    Qt Core: even if when we are non-aligned we are predictable
    Ewan Bonham: I prefer to concentrate on what we have control over- our uniqueness
    Calvino Rabeni: Yep, I noticed some good books analyzing that social condition
    Calvino Rabeni: We have control over aspects of non-uniqueness
    Calvino Rabeni: like, maybe, not being a lemming, jumping out of the parade
    Ewan Bonham: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe starting a different parade
    Qt Core: but that is accounted for too beforehand
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: Ewans hands have been typing a very long time
    Hokon Cazalet: lol
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Ewan Bonham: Sorry, unable to stop them
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Ewan Bonham: Maybe i can stand then sit
    Ewan Bonham: worked
    Calvino Rabeni: I was expecting some ultra-comment :)
    Ewan Bonham: Just not eveything is as it meets the eye
    Hokon Cazalet: transformers
    Hokon Cazalet: btw id agree
    Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking, how the eye meets everything
    Ewan Bonham: We see with many 'eyes'
    Calvino Rabeni: Hopefully so
    Ewan Bonham: And sometimes with 'I's
    Qt Core: and listen with too few ears ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe Qt
    Ewan Bonham: yes
    Qt Core: sleeptime for me
    Hokon Cazalet: goodnighty
    Ewan Bonham: by QT
    Qt Core: bye all, have fun
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, sleep well
    Calvino Rabeni: The ear as well as the eye can contain / bring beauty
    --BELL--
    Hokon Cazalet: hi ingrid
    Ingrid Manen: hi all
    Ingrid Manen: what is neo platonism?
    Ingrid Manen: neo = late
    Ingrid Manen: platonism = attraction at distance....
    Hokon Cazalet: neoplatonism is the movement that revivied or reformulated Plato's ideas in the 5th century AD
    Ingrid Manen: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: Ingrid, have you visited here before - and you know that there's a recorder of the chat that puts our words onto the web?
    Ingrid Manen: I have
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't always remember who I've seen here before, whether they know about it
    Ingrid Manen: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, thanks
    Calvino Rabeni: Hokon's a good one to ask about philosophy
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe ty
    Calvino Rabeni: Neo usually means - later, the current or later ideas about something, rather than the original
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Calvino Rabeni: So some group of people get excited about plato's ideas, and adapt it to their own views and needs
    Hokon Cazalet: plotinus saw himself as more of an apologetic of plato's ideas, but his, and others, had views different enough to warrant the designation of neoplatonic
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe changing it from where it started
    Hokon Cazalet: basically
    Ingrid Manen: so if I am right: Platonism is not wysiwyg
    Hokon Cazalet: correct
    Ingrid Manen: life is an illusion
    Hokon Cazalet: in platonism the world we see is mere shadows, from a higher realm of Being
    Ewan Bonham: Must go now, folks
    Hokon Cazalet: bye =)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Ewan
    Ingrid Manen: ok bye ewan
    Ingrid Manen: so is there a truth in Platonism?
    Hokon Cazalet: i think there are, but it has many flaws that needed correcting
    Hokon Cazalet: some of the major issues brought up by plato himself
    Calvino Rabeni: Plato put a lot of emphasis on - not taking the direct appearance of things for granted as the end of the story. That was worthwhile
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Calvino Rabeni: That I think was the main significance of his work.
    Hokon Cazalet: he also tried to reconcile the ancient greek problem of an ever-changing world with eternal ideas
    Calvino Rabeni: Then if he used stories and metaphors to help explain it - like the cave
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Calvino Rabeni: later people wanted to make it as a final statement of some kind - an ontological idea
    Ingrid Manen: ok nice
    Ingrid Manen: interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: It's useful to think of every philosopher as - not making ultimate final statements - but struggling in some way to change the limited ideas of their time.
    Hokon Cazalet: yup and making progress on the problems, aristotle, which came after plato, did alot of work as well
    Calvino Rabeni: That is, opening things up, not closing them down with final answers
    Ingrid Manen: so there is no beginning and no end
    Calvino Rabeni: Aristotle was great - trying to make a place for many types of knowledge, and make them work together in a practical way
    --BELL--
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Hokon Cazalet: his solution to Being vs. change also was metaphysical, not metaphorical like Plato's ideas
    Ingrid Manen: and what is our place in this system?
    Hokon Cazalet: the role of humans?
    Ingrid Manen: the place
    Ingrid Manen: or are we the system?
    Hokon Cazalet: no
    Hokon Cazalet: hm
    Hokon Cazalet: well each philosopher has a different view on man's place in the cosmos
    Ingrid Manen: yes
    Ingrid Manen: but according to Plato nothing is what is looks like
    Hokon Cazalet: no
    Ingrid Manen: but there is no chaos
    Ingrid Manen: so I wonder what is our place in this system. Plato was human
    Calvino Rabeni: As humans, we live in a complicated soup of knowledge
    Calvino Rabeni: We live in a human world of common or conventional knowledge. How compelling are those little phrases of wisdom, such as "Beauty is in the Mind of the Beholder" to smuggle in a certain meaning, like a trojan horse?
    Calvino Rabeni: I meant "In the Eye of the Beholder"
    Hokon Cazalet: im not sure how plato viewed our place
    Hokon Cazalet: aristotle viewed our place as above plants and animals
    Ingrid Manen: but as a human he viewed this philosophy as a system
    Ingrid Manen: he must have had an idea of our place
    Hokon Cazalet: i dunno how he viewed man
    Hokon Cazalet: i havnt researched plato enough to answer your question
    Ingrid Manen: ok
    Ingrid Manen: Christianity adopted a lot of the views of Plato
    Calvino Rabeni: Plato was about "thinking on the edge"
    Ingrid Manen: but in christianity man is central
    Calvino Rabeni: He didn't want to create a system and then stay within it
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah plato never formalized his ideas
    Ingrid Manen: I suppose that would be too limited too
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, he never arrives at a theory - or a set of concepts that stays fixed
    Ingrid Manen: But still he thought of it as a system
    Hokon Cazalet: i doubt it
    Calvino Rabeni: We have to assume he didn't want to do that, didn't believe it was "philosophy"
    Hokon Cazalet: well philosophy prior to aristotle was not really a system
    Ingrid Manen: so the system is not really a system....
    Hokon Cazalet: well plato never formalized or wrote a list of his views
    Hokon Cazalet: he always wrote in dialouges between people
    Calvino Rabeni: Aristotle wanted to organize knowledge to make it useful
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Hokon Cazalet: aristotle was the first scientist of western culture =)
    Calvino Rabeni: So the systems were for that purpose, not for being an ultimate theory of everything
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, he was, and we owe a great deal to it
    Ingrid Manen: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: Ideas of "ultimate theories" came later
    Ingrid Manen: so Platonism is a mere swift thought....
    Ingrid Manen: ever changing
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah it was
    Ingrid Manen: in the end no thought at all
    Hokon Cazalet: he put alot of thought into it
    Calvino Rabeni: like Galileo thinking things reduce to mathematics
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Calvino Rabeni: But he did experiments, like dropping balls off a tower
    Ingrid Manen: Plato?
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Hokon Cazalet: no gfalieo
    Ingrid Manen: ah ok
    Calvino Rabeni: He got in big trouble for that - for not doing "a priori" philosophy
    Ingrid Manen: but that was to mathematically compute the effect of the ball
    Hokon Cazalet: though he was into a priori stuff, like math being the language of reality
    Hokon Cazalet: hi tabitha =)
    Ingrid Manen: hi tabitha
    Tabitha Bakerly: Hi Hokon
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but he know, experiments would always turn up new stuff, not already in the theory
    Hokon Cazalet: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: would / could
    Calvino Rabeni: So he didn't assume a theory "finished"
    Calvino Rabeni: which rattled some of his peers
    Hokon Cazalet: which is a rejection of platonism, that empirical knowledge is substantial
    Calvino Rabeni: as they thought God had finished with the creation
    Tabitha Bakerly: who?
    Ingrid Manen: ok like todays experiments we calculate the deviations to draw conclusions
    Hokon Cazalet: well science in general rattled religious types, pagans understood nature on their own without the aid of God (which was a focus of medeval philosophy, reconciling religion and pagan philosophy)
    Ingrid Manen: sure but pagans had a truth
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi, Tabitha - I think you've been here before and been informed of the fact that the session chat is recorded and published?
    Hokon Cazalet: yes
    Ingrid Manen: Plato had no truth
    Hokon Cazalet: he didnt?
    --BELL--
    Ingrid Manen: no because there was no truth.... once you found it, there would be another truth
    Hokon Cazalet: he very much believed in universal truth
    Hokon Cazalet: in contrast to cultural truths or "doxa"
    Ingrid Manen: but he would find an truth beyond the universal truth
    Hokon Cazalet: whats beyond universal?
    Ingrid Manen: you mean universal is the end?
    Ingrid Manen: not according to Plato
    Hokon Cazalet: well the goal of ancient greek philosophy was to ground our beliefs in reason (episteme) not myth or relative beliefs (doxa)
    Tabitha Bakerly: what does doxa mean?
    Ingrid Manen: dogmas
    Hokon Cazalet: doxa means opinion in a way
    Tabitha Bakerly: 'cause my knowledeg of greek says "doxa" means "praise, glory"
    Hokon Cazalet: !
    Hokon Cazalet: philosophy sites i go to depict doxa as opinion, relative beliefs, not geniune knowledge
    Calvino Rabeni: That's a nice connection
    Calvino Rabeni: as who wouldn
    Tabitha Bakerly: "doxa to theo panton en eken" - "glory to God in all things", last wods of st. john chrysostom
    Ingrid Manen: lol it is
    Hokon Cazalet: wow
    Hokon Cazalet: either the word changed its meaning, it has many meanings, or one of us is wrong
    Tabitha Bakerly: different meaning maybe
    Hokon Cazalet: ill research it more lol
    Calvino Rabeni: Because they believed their knowledge to be true, it deserved praise and glory
    Tabitha Bakerly: I suspect it had multiple meanings
    Ingrid Manen: perhaps the word came from Plato
    Tabitha Bakerly: doxa could also mean something like "teaching"
    Tabitha Bakerly: "orthodoxy" = "right teaching"
    Calvino Rabeni: And they had not internalized a posture of doubt
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah maybe it has some more basic meaning, that philosophers re-defined it
    Tabitha Bakerly: probably tradition?
    Calvino Rabeni: Doctrine is based on that root
    Hokon Cazalet: ok it means common belief
    Calvino Rabeni: As the accepted "best truth"
    Tabitha Bakerly: dogma is different word I think
    Tabitha Bakerly: maybe not totally different
    Ingrid Manen: yes it must be
    Hokon Cazalet: wiki says it means common belief/opinion; so not dogma or necessarily untrue either
    Hokon Cazalet: im glad i researched this, i didnt know the words true meaning lol
    Ingrid Manen: dogma is a set of believes
    Ingrid Manen: not necesarily a truth
    Calvino Rabeni: Well actually, dogma means a set of other peoples beliefs that one does not subscribe to :)
    Hokon Cazalet: if anyone is curious: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxa
    Ingrid Manen: I have to leave.... sorry. Thanks for this chat
    Hokon Cazalet: bye =)
    Ingrid Manen: bye
    Hokon Cazalet: have fun
    Calvino Rabeni: YW, Bye Ingrid
    Calvino Rabeni: The Courage to Love
    Calvino Rabeni: it takes courage, maybe a decision, maybe one made and then renewed
    Hokon Cazalet: seems ok, though it gets the timeline wrong on the american ideals that formed the nation
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: You're a quick study
    Calvino Rabeni: What's the timeline?
    Hokon Cazalet: well american govt is based on empiricist philosophy, the myth of the savage forming society; not the kantian notion of a transcendental ego
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree
    Hokon Cazalet: but an overall looking it over, it seems fine =)
    Calvino Rabeni: I was in Boston - there's a private library there which predates public libraries
    Calvino Rabeni: and it has George Washington's collection (original)
    Calvino Rabeni: I was interested to see the number of science books on his shelf
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Calvino Rabeni: along with politicl philosophy
    Calvino Rabeni: And willing to read in detail - magnetism / electricity, "a history of quadrupeds", natural history, etc.
    Hokon Cazalet: Plato kept on thinking on the edge. - this might be what heidegger focused on with ancient greek thought, that it was poetic to a degree
    Hokon Cazalet: cool
    Calvino Rabeni: And nearby was a retrospective called "Science and the Founding Fathers"
    Calvino Rabeni: which was about the influences of new empiricism in the design of the American government system
    Calvino Rabeni: partly there was the machine metaphor
    Calvino Rabeni: like steam engines with regulators
    Calvino Rabeni: so the idea was to "build" it as if it were a machine that could self-regulate
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah mechanicalism was a big deal then
    Calvino Rabeni: which was in early "cybernetic" principle
    Hokon Cazalet: well in empiricism (locke's) minds are matter that thinks, so we are logically, also mechanistic objects
    Calvino Rabeni: So government didn't descend from god or the authority of kings
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, so it was not just "clockwork
    Calvino Rabeni: It couldn't be criticised on that basis, it seemed more universal
    Hokon Cazalet: but it was critiqued on other grounds
    Hokon Cazalet: but yes
    Calvino Rabeni: And the empiricism was assumed to be avilable to anyone, in principle
    Hokon Cazalet: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: There was the attempt much later, to bring psychology into this framework
    Calvino Rabeni: phenomenology, that is
    Hokon Cazalet: well psychology was part of locke's empirical philosophy
    Hokon Cazalet: as it was with berkeley and hume
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but it seemed off-track to Husserl in some way, didn't it?
    Hokon Cazalet: husserl isnt an empiricist, he is more of a kantian idealist
    Hokon Cazalet: phenomenology is not empiricist
    Calvino Rabeni: True, but he did invoke in a way, empiricism
    Hokon Cazalet: not completely, yes he did say that empirical intuitions are valid, but so should all other ways we intuit data
    Calvino Rabeni: Kant seemed like an attempt to unify, or at least, compromise
    Hokon Cazalet: well kant tried to explain the skepticism of empiricism and the dogmatism of rationalism
    Calvino Rabeni: although I don't know the fine distinctions of that at all
    Hokon Cazalet: well kant basically inhereted the Cartesian dualism of subjective vs. objective
    Hokon Cazalet: and by the late 1700s, philosophy in both viens, had run into absurdities
    Calvino Rabeni: As do we all...
    Hokon Cazalet: yup we still do
    Tabitha Bakerly: the splitting of noumenal and phenomenal seems to me a big change from medieval thought
    Hokon Cazalet: it is
    Calvino Rabeni: Or else we wouldn't be hearing about the "hard problem" of neurophilosophy, or the "mind body problem"
    Hokon Cazalet: well its rooted in descartes and skepticism that results from it
    Hokon Cazalet: the mind and body wasnt an issue for ancient philosophy
    Calvino Rabeni: right
    Hokon Cazalet: not as it is today (yes your right calvino)
    Tabitha Bakerly: one guy I was reading, tim keller, a presbyterian theologian and apologist, was talking about the problems with kant viz a viz a religion worldview. Kant says metaphysics and religious claims are irrelevent, they aren't real. They only exist to explain morality.
    Hokon Cazalet: yes in the end
    Hokon Cazalet: or to make morality not absurd
    Hokon Cazalet: which there are other solutions to that existential crisis
    Tabitha Bakerly: yeah
    Tabitha Bakerly: people need more than morality in life
    Hokon Cazalet: that too
    Tabitha Bakerly: too
    Tabitha Bakerly: it isn't surprising that kant was a pietest lutheran. His philosophy is perfect for those wanting a spiritual, otherwordly utopia
    --BELL--
    Hokon Cazalet: kants dualism isnt really any better than hume's empiricist skepticism imo
    Calvino Rabeni: yup
    Hokon Cazalet: in the end, they have the same conclusion: the subjective (mind) cannot know the external world (objective) with certianity (episteme)
    Hokon Cazalet: one approaches it from an empiricist viewpoint, the other more rationalist
    Tabitha Bakerly: how about, there is no external world... that's what I think
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Hokon Cazalet: that would be an appeal to ignorance, based on skepticism alone
    Tabitha Bakerly: the world as some autonomous thing doesn't exist
    Hokon Cazalet: lack of evidence for an external world doesnt mean it doesnt exist
    Hokon Cazalet: id agree
    Hokon Cazalet: thats a product of cartesian dualism, the objective world and the spiritual are self-contianed
    Tabitha Bakerly: yeah
    Hokon Cazalet: the physical grounds itself, the soul grounds itself autonomously
    Tabitha Bakerly: "the world" is something I make up in my head to explain the phenomena I experience.
    Hokon Cazalet: and since the spiritual is obscure, reduction to materialism; or, since we cannot know this "physical" is even real, cut it of, reduction to idealism (berkely)
    Tabitha Bakerly: I think reality is ultimately immaterial.
    Hokon Cazalet: i do also
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you think, there were times in history when the role of philosophy included practical wisdom about the conduct of everyday life?
    Hokon Cazalet: but i do think a physical world exists, it just has an immaterial substrate
    Hokon Cazalet: yes calvino, both aristotle and socrates focused on that
    Calvino Rabeni: And how philosophy has strayed from that in terms of mission, and respect, and effectiveness
    Hokon Cazalet: enlightenment philosophy onwards was very focused on knowing, ethics aesthetics and such was delegated to the subjective
    Tabitha Bakerly: bishop berkeley was interesting, in some ways it reminds me of other philosophies/theologies.
    Hokon Cazalet: hehe
    Tabitha Bakerly: he was afraid of dualism, from what i've read
    Hokon Cazalet: yes
    Hokon Cazalet: and materialism
    Tabitha Bakerly: jonathan edwards had a similar view of things too
    Hokon Cazalet: he felt materialism would eventually collapse into atheism (which it did)
    Tabitha Bakerly: 18th century american theologian
    Hokon Cazalet: oh ok
    Tabitha Bakerly: berkeley was right
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Calvino Rabeni: And there seems to be a pervasive effect of doubt or skepticism - like - knowing is assumed in advance to be impossible, so certain things aren't tried any more
    Hokon Cazalet: though his rejection of locke wasnt fully worked out, hume presents empiricism of the enlightenment coherently
    Hokon Cazalet: yeah
    Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!
    Hokon Cazalet: raining outside
    Calvino Rabeni: so philosophy, in a way, self-destructed
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Tabitha Bakerly: human knowledge cannot deliver the big answers intelelctually
    Hokon Cazalet: since the enlightenment, the new radical approach failed, and 200 years post-kant, it has yet to recover
    Calvino Rabeni: yup
    Calvino Rabeni: "yet"
    Hokon Cazalet: well i think our species will be around for a long time to come =)
    Tabitha Bakerly: hokon and I talked about this earlier, the living in the head has been the curse of western civiliation since the enlightenment
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Calvino Rabeni: er, yup
    Hokon Cazalet: rationalism was a mess lol
    Hokon Cazalet: rationalism is like fundmanetalist philosophy
    Tabitha Bakerly: in some ways, its like taking eastern religions and reversing them. Taking the buddha's approach to things, and making dukkha a way of life.
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think I grasp the crux of rationalism
    Hokon Cazalet: marxism and hegelianism def does that
    Calvino Rabeni: but it has something to do with measurement
    Tabitha Bakerly: what?
    Tabitha Bakerly: marxism says take your angst, your dukha, wad it up, and throw it at rich people :)
    Hokon Cazalet: rationalism is predicated on us having a fully autonomous ego, that can deduce truths on its own
    Calvino Rabeni: Rationalism basically abdicates ability to do anything qualitiative
    Hokon Cazalet: well marxism says human history is all about strife, and communism will be the final product of that strife
    Tabitha Bakerly: yeah
    Tabitha Bakerly: whereas buddhism sees the angst as pointless
    Tabitha Bakerly: marxism sees it as leading somewhere
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Tabitha Bakerly: and if you don't feel the angst, its because you are a class traitor
    Hokon Cazalet: yup
    Hokon Cazalet: or just stupid
    Hokon Cazalet: even the bourgusie feel some angst, in trying to control their workers
    Tabitha Bakerly: yeah
    Calvino Rabeni: well buddhism makes a big deal of suffering, as marxism of class conflict
    Hokon Cazalet: rationalism, i like to say spinoza is the best example of what rationalism was
    Hokon Cazalet: deduce truths from self-evident axioms
    Hokon Cazalet: and geometric styles are the correct way towards truth
    Calvino Rabeni: the axioms dont say anything about emergent forms
    Calvino Rabeni: and since quality is an emergent form, all are excluded
    --BELL--
    Tabitha Bakerly: bbialb
    Calvino Rabeni: Time for me to go - bye Tabitha, andd Hokon, if you return.

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