2010.07.24 07:00 – many topics !

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bertram Jacobus. The comments are by Bertram Jacobus.

     

    Yakuzza Lethecus: herzlich willkommen bruce :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hi bruce ! :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: i see you levitating yaku ... :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Gut morgan, Yaku und Bert!
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. now not anymore ... :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i already reached the final step of meditation
    Bertram Jacobus: you think that is "the final one" yaku ? ;-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eliza
    Bertram Jacobus: hello eliza ! :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bert, Bruce :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Eliza.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi ya... just seeing you rezz

    (Bruce, a new guardian) !

    Bertram Jacobus: and bruce : welcome and congratulations to the circle of pab guardians ! :-))
    Eliza Madrigal: :::: applause::::
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you -- what an honor !
    Eliza Madrigal remembering to send out the guardian meeting notice ...
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. i´m very happy to see you with us. wanted also to vote for you, but failed at the tecnical issues - am sometimes a computer jerk sry ... ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Do you know about those Bruce? On Sundays we meet after the morning session, at Village Hall... just guardians. We try to discuss some of the behind-the-scenes workings there :)
    Eliza Madrigal: computer jerk? hah, never
    Bruce Mowbray: No -- I'm new-born. . . know nothing. . . Will make note of that meting time/place. Thanks!
    Bertram Jacobus: me ? not ? eliza ? if so : why do you think that !? :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: vote ?
    Eliza Madrigal: :) I'll be sending an email
    Eliza Madrigal: brb
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i thought when nobody complains against a new guardian he´s in :)
    Bertram Jacobus: vote / propose / suggest / recommend - bruce as a guardian, yes yaku ...
    Bruce Mowbray: TY -- please do. . . perhaps also with an LM tothe Village Hall, please.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i remember when pema asked me, i was just arround all the time and suddenly i was asked to become a guardian
    Bruce Mowbray my experience, also.

    (pab membership = “sangha“ = being competent) ?

    Yakuzza Lethecus: and the feeling of facination and not feeling to be competent enough to fill the position
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe - typical yaku ;o)
    Bruce Mowbray thinks "Exactle the same with me."
    Bruce Mowbray: exactly.
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow - how ... nice, kind, friendly ... *smile* ...
    Bruce Mowbray: I felt all that day that I'd just been invited into a Sangha.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but the good thing is that nobody ever said something like ,,hey what are you doing as a guardian? you have no clue of all these things, why are you a guardian or something?"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean something like that was what i´ve been scared about
    Bertram Jacobus: yess bruce - that is it also to me : a sangha ...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, got to google sangha
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s a spiritual community yaku, in buddhism at least - which language may it be ? sanskrit may be ...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Arya-Sangha :)
    Bertram Jacobus: that´s "the highest one" ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: that´s only for the ppl whom reached the first step if i read the wiki right
    Bruce Mowbray: Sangha, for me, is everyone deliberately involved with "the work." (by which I mean, "The Play.")
    --BELL--
    Yakuzza Lethecus: in fact, in the end i just see pab as a really nice community with the ability to be able to talk about nearly everything
    Bertram Jacobus: but what is "arya sangha" ?
    Bertram Jacobus: arya ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: (Sanskrit: “Arya-Sangha“) bezeichnet die Wesen, die laut buddhistischer Lehre bereits die erste Etappe auf dem Weg zur Erleuchtung bewältigt haben sollen, dadurch dass sie sich von der “Ich- Illusion“ befreit haben.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: So when made the step to see urself as ,,no self"
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice Yakuzza... reading your comment about 'in the end..." :) yes
    Eliza Madrigal: this is a practice community/sangha for me definitely. Peer support for seeing clearly :)

    ( “Geist“ and humility, what helps, others and empathy )

    Bertram Jacobus: and a spiritual community for me, whereas in german a word for mind, ratio and spirit can be the same (!) : "geist"
    Eliza Madrigal: oh, that's interesting Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: and even ghost is geist in german too (!) :-)
    Bruce Mowbray sincerely hopes that this does not embarrass Yaku, but feels compelled to say:
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes ! so we have totally different associations with that word spirituality as english speakin people i guess
    Bruce Mowbray: I am inspired by Yaku's genuine humility.
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Bruce Mowbray: perhaps his "geist" of humbleness.
    Bertram Jacobus: yess :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: so apparent in the "voice" session yesterday afternoon.
    Eliza Madrigal: truthfully, it is a spiritual practice and contemplation to bring one's own worries and concerns so openly "to the table"... really helps us all
    Bruce Mowbray: [I hope that did not upset you, Yaku, but there is Presence in that -- something I could "hold" and be "held by" for the rest of the day.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no, it only scares me in such sitations that i grasp to preserve that view of others
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: to keep that image because of cause i like that
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I feel that also -- both in myself and in empathy with you.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and such situations made me stuck in the past


    ( “Geist“ as presence – and stumbling )


    Bruce Mowbray: For me, that "geist" is no image -- I feel it as genuine "Presence" (coming out of your being).
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i have good ideas other ppl say ,,yeah!" and then i want to preserve the ,,yeah!" but stumble over my feet because it´s never been about the ,,yeah!"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so to speak
    Bruce Mowbray: Really, I don't think there's ANYTHING you can do about it! (sorry).
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: You are so "right" -- It has never been about the "Yeah." and how easy it is for "ego" to stumble over that one!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s more comfortable to stay in the background because when i am on the spot i am also polarizing

     

    ( trusting to the people´s own path )


    Yakuzza Lethecus: for exampel when hokon came yestarday and we were just silly
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i haven´t seen her in month and the only thing she get´s is the silly session
    Bruce Mowbray apologizes for putting Yaku "on the spot"... but also recognizes his concerns as more evidence of his humility.
    Eliza Madrigal: at some level we have to trust people to their own paths I think... maybe she needed a silly session Ya... we don't know :)
    --BELL--

    ( what “spirituality" may mean )

    Bertram Jacobus: may i ask again to the topic from before : what means spirituality to native english speakers, please ?
    Eliza Madrigal: Well I think it is too loose Bert...
    Bruce Mowbray: For me, vividness.
    Bertram Jacobus: nice ... some hints ... ty
    Bruce Mowbray: In the "tradition" is is sometimes referred to as "Light."
    Bruce Mowbray: it is...
    Bruce Mowbray: But absolutely NO dogma, NO beliefs, NO institutions, NO words...
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. fits all to my emotions and thoughts ... good ... :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Vividness of Presence -- very close to what Pema has called "Sheer Awareness."
    Bertram Jacobus: but - is it sometimes or for some kinda crazy ? (spirituality) , kinda "unreal" ?
    Eliza Madrigal: I think many people relate the word spiritual to flaky, yes...
    Eliza Madrigal: which is unfortunate
    Eliza Madrigal: like almost 'without using your mind'
    Bertram Jacobus: so which other words could we use to communicate with such people about such topics ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Definitely "crazy" and "unreal" for most folks, apparently. Definitely like "losing one's mind" -- or one's head.
    Eliza Madrigal: I haven't found a solution for that Bert, but I like that in german mind and spirit aren't disconnected...

    ( “understanding“ spirituality . “soul“ and contexts )

    Bruce Mowbray: I try to avoid "spiritual words" entirely -- especially with folks who think they "understand" spirituality.
    Bertram Jacobus: what could one say ? researching being for example ? examinating the questions and answers of life ?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, nature of reality
    Bruce Mowbray: I prefer to use the term "soul" when I actually mean "vividness of mind," -- but the term "soul" has been co-opted by Christians, sadly.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes eliza ! that is very supporting (in german)
    Bruce Mowbray: psyche - soul (byt not as Christians mean it. . . )
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't relate very well to the word soul, in general
    Eliza Madrigal: but when I read someone's own experience of something 'coming from their soul' etc,
    Eliza Madrigal: I am moved
    Eliza Madrigal: so it is always contextual
    Eliza Madrigal: because of the connection they have to it
    Eliza Madrigal: and I to them I guess
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Eliza -- I had to read the archetypal psychologists (James Hillman) and Jung before I appreciated Soul in its original (psyche) "meaning."
    Eliza Madrigal: in that context there is something to tap into
    Bruce Mowbray: "Soul" again for me (just for me -- I cannot speak for anyone else - including the Jungians),,, but Soul for me, is what spirituality is about (to answer Bert's question) -- and for me, "soul" means vividness of awareness.
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, i understand you very well, ty bruce :-)

     

    ( awareness and solidity , metaphors and words )
     

    Eliza Madrigal: Interesting... so sitting in the 'seat of the soul' is resting in awareness...
    Bruce Mowbray: even the word "means" is too solid...
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: Notice how quickly we rely on metaphor when discussing such things -- "sitting in" "the seat" etc.
    Bertram Jacobus: some more, some less ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: This is appropriate, if we understand that what we're discussing really cannot be discussed -- with literalness.
    Bertram Jacobus: i, for example, seem to be very often too abstract ...
    Eliza Madrigal: :) well in the same way that one first thinks of the mind as this 'thing'... almost with a shape one can hold...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i think generally of philosophy as a language learning process to reach these subjects easier
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i think words are helping to focus our thoughts sometimes
    --BELL--
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Yaku - - - I think you used the term "anchors" yesterday.
    Bruce Mowbray: or "reference points..."
    Eliza Madrigal: touchstones perhaps... but words aren't what have meaning... the *spirit* conveyed is the point?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, it´s the tricky thing
    Yakuzza Lethecus: words aren´t thoughts
    Bruce Mowbray: "touch-stone" is good.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and the same words can cause different associations in different minds
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: if we're caught in them... but one thousand people can pick up on someone's spirit as they sing from their heart....
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean there is a reason why i am interested in philosophy and language
    Eliza Madrigal: whether they know the language or not
    Bruce Mowbray: Ram Dass says (through WORDS) that the only thing we have to give is our Being. . . everything else "is empty boxes falling into the void."
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, nice
    Bruce Mowbray: and also, that when we gove our Being - no words are necessary for the transmission to occur.
    Bruce Mowbray: give.
    Bertram Jacobus: i´ll leave, rest a bit - tyvm for the session ! and - may all beings be happy please :-)
    Bruce Mowbray thinks: This is probably why Trappists and Quakers worship in silence.
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bert :) Thanks
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take car bert
    Bruce Mowbray: Blessing to you, Bert. Thanks you.
    Bertram Jacobus waves ... :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: would anyone like to come to the roadside philosophers on IQ later ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: except bruce
    Yakuzza Lethecus: only because you come anyway :D
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, since bert is gone
    Eliza Madrigal: I have a full day today, but I'd like to come some time... I hadn't intended to sign on this morning but was feeling 'selfy'
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, eliza
    Bruce Mowbray: Ha HA! I was just thinking that I'd need to excuse myself in a few minutes to attend Pamala's session!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s in voice eliza
    Bruce Mowbray: It begins in 8 minutes!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: you can do housework and turn the speaker up :P
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but ur kids will laugh at you :)
    Eliza Madrigal laughs...
    Eliza Madrigal: it isn't housework actually....
    Bruce Mowbray: Did both of you take the IQ test?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t like IQ tests
    Eliza Madrigal: is it a group that I should join, btw?
    Bruce Mowbray: I tried to take it but got confounded toward the end because graphics would not appear.
    Bruce Mowbray: It is a wonderful group -- always experimenting with new things.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: when you have a group left before you reach 25
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: Roadside Philosophers.
    Bruce Mowbray: (in my profile, Eliza).
    Eliza Madrigal: okay... added myself just now
    Bruce Mowbray: cool.
    Bruce Mowbray: I am on my way to the Think Tank, then.
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you both for this session.
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm fond of philosophy but not the kind of arguments that many of the groups seem to enjoy
    Yakuzza Lethecus: admit it bruce, you just want the 10 lindens :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Pamala does an excellent jog of managing the rancor.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: nods :)
    Bruce Mowbray: yep the 10 Lindens!
    Bruce Mowbray: also to get a good seat!
    Eliza Madrigal: :) well maybe I'll come for a few minutes but please forgive me when I poof early
    Eliza Madrigal: will you send a tp Ya?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: cya there
    Bruce Mowbray: Happy housekeeping -- and a beauty-filled day to you both.
    Eliza Madrigal: Namaste


     

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