2010.07.28 13:00 - Thoughts, Pain and Aggression

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

     

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Yaku, Fef.
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Yaku
    Fefonz Quan: Yo Mick!
    Bruce Mowbray: Yo, Mickorod.
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya guys
    Mickorod Renard: just dropped by
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi mick
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: nice to have you back
    Fefonz Quan: Its good to see you
    Yakuzza Lethecus: as a drop :)
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I am a bit chilled out now
    Fefonz Quan: meaning?
    Mickorod Renard: on hols for 6 weeks
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Qt
    Fefonz Quan: (hols?)
    Qt Core: hi all
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi qt
    Mickorod Renard: the worst thing now is making sure I dont have time to think too much
    Bruce Mowbray: (holidays?
    Mickorod Renard: Hi QT
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Qt.
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,hols as in holidays,,sorry
    Fefonz Quan: sounds great!
    Mickorod Renard: I was thinking earlier,,the problem with dropping the idea',,like what we presume as reality from our life's conditioning is that the imagination runs riot
    Fefonz Quan: I saw a fascinating movie last weekend
    Mickorod Renard: yes? whats that one?
    Mickorod Renard: the dream one?
    Fefonz Quan: yep!
    Fefonz Quan: but if other haven't, it's better i won't say a word about it
    Mickorod Renard: thought so,,I was writing a book on a similar line,,i may ditch it now
    Fefonz Quan: Anyway, i recommend it warmly - it's called Inception
    Bruce Mowbray: I've heard good things about it.
    Mickorod Renard: I will watch it,,if nothing else but to make judgement on whethr there is point in continuing with my book
    Qt Core: never eard about it... but that is how i am about movies ;-)
    Fefonz Quan: i can only encourage you to se it on the cinema - it's fun and worth the big screen
    --BELL--
    Mickorod Renard: I saw an old star trek episode todat QT,kirk and his encounter for the first time at the edge of the neutral zone.
    Mickorod Renard: must have been one of the first
    Mickorod Renard: I took a wierd photo the other week
    Mickorod Renard: several times i had seen a ball of rainbow
    Qt Core: when they discover romulans look almost the same as vulcans ?
    Mickorod Renard: but been too busy driving to take a shot
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,kirk shot down the first romulan
    Mickorod Renard: anyway,,the other day i was passenger,,so i took the snap
    Mickorod Renard: photo
    Qt Core: shoot first think after typical kirk style ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: when i looked on the pc at it
    Mickorod Renard: after downloading it
    Mickorod Renard: there was no rainbow ball..but a spoky looking ufo
    Mickorod Renard: spooky
    Mickorod Renard: but as i dont really believe in ufo stuff I guess it must be something else
    Fefonz Quan: oj, interesting... what is rainbow ball btw?
    Fefonz Quan: (could you show us te picture mick?)
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I had never seen it before these encounters,,but what i meant was refracted light in the shape of a ball,,i the sky
    Mickorod Renard: I proberbly could show you
    Mickorod Renard: I will have a peek and see if i can find it
    Qt Core: around the sun or elsewhere ?
    Mickorod Renard: no,,just hanging around,,in the same place on several occations
    Mickorod Renard: occasions
    Mickorod Renard: mmmmm,,may take me a while to find it
    Fefonz Quan: ok, don't bother then
    Darren Islar: hi everyone :)
    Fefonz Quan: hi Darren
    Mickorod Renard: Hi darren
    Darren Islar: hey Mick, nice to see you again :)
    Mickorod Renard: found it
    Qt Core: Hi Darren
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Darren.
    Darren Islar: hey
    Bruce Mowbray: Will we get to see it too, Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: stay cool
    Bruce Mowbray: -)
    --BELL--
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,i will send individual picks,,cos i dont want to create a stir on the wiki
    Fefonz Quan: thanks mick
    Fefonz Quan: It's hard to say there is something unusual in the pic
    Mickorod Renard: u have to remember,,there was just the refracted light ball i was seeing and tryin to photo
    Darren Islar: pic?
    Mickorod Renard: its more obvious if u can zoom in
    Darren Islar: can you send me one too/
    Mickorod Renard: sure,,but just between us ok
    Darren Islar: oh, okay, if you don't want too, that's fine with me
    Mickorod Renard: no,,its my pleasure Darren
    Mickorod Renard: but it was in ref to what we were chattin about,,i will fill u in
    Darren Islar: hi Cal :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi everyone :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Greetings :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Cal,,Hi Bleu
    Qt Core: hi Cal, Bleu
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Cal, Bleu
    Darren Islar: hi Bleu
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Bleu and Cal.
    Fefonz Quan: nice (new?) outfit Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: ty Fef, not new.... reworked a bit
    Fefonz Quan: I've noticed somethingt this week about our perception and sensations
    Mickorod Renard: yes?
    Fefonz Quan: When i looked at a fresh cut salad, I noticed that when looking at the tomato, i already and immediately feel it's taste, structure, texture and
    Mickorod Renard: I guess thats conditioning from lifes experience?
    Fefonz Quan: moisture etc., as it came along with the visual perception
    Fefonz Quan: yes i guess.
    Mickorod Renard: but its nice to notice that Fef
    Fefonz Quan: it's just that till now i was aware that my 'thoughts' obscure the world from me\
    Fefonz Quan: and now i saw that its not just thoughts, but sensations as well
    Darren Islar: yes, it can be anything
    Fefonz Quan: which seems to me as a more basic and deep veil of interpertation
    Calvino Rabeni: Categorically, sensations are also thoughts
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,these are things i muse with,,for example,,if we become experienced at altering our perceptions,,we have a life line to return to normality,,but the more one may explore the more I worry that one may loose the way back?
    Calvino Rabeni: as are all phenomena
    Fefonz Quan: i agree Calvino, but in that sense i would define thoughts as 'certain kind of phenomena'
    Fefonz Quan: in order to define, for example, pain from thought
    Darren Islar: what would be the way back for you Mick?
    Calvino Rabeni: In what way would it be useful to distinguish pain from thought?
    Mickorod Renard: well,this is why I think I only let my adventures into abstact thought go so far
    Darren Islar: and is there a real difference
    Calvino Rabeni: In order perhaps to do something with the differences?
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: Knowing the similarities would be useful in some other way
    Fefonz Quan: For me there is a dfference Darren, as well as usefulness
    Fefonz Quan: for example, if i drop a glass on my toe, there is pain. I would say it is inavoidable in a way
    Fefonz Quan: then, there can be the stream of thoughts: "why did i do it, i am no good, why did it happen right now wheh i have to run to work etc"
    Fefonz Quan: this stream of thought, is optional as i see it
    Fefonz Quan: so i can choose to avoid it and brighten my day a little
    Darren Islar: I think that when you start the process of becoming aware, neither are optional
    Darren Islar: all those thoughts are there
    Bleu Oleander: the thought recognizing the pain isn't optional unless you are impared in some way
    Darren Islar: if you like it or not
    Mickorod Renard: thats because its an inconvenience,,the glass the water etc,,but many things happen that you do not give second thought to
    Fefonz Quan: i agree with Bleu
    Darren Islar: if you can let the attachement of pain go, so you can let go of the attachements of thoughts
    Fefonz Quan: and i would say, that certain practice/approach/view you name it, can hellp those thought to not arise
    Darren Islar: and the other way around
    Calvino Rabeni: Most thoughts are involuntary, are they not?
    Darren Islar: there are ways not letting pain arise either
    Fefonz Quan: i am not sure Darren. at least i think one way is much easier that the other way around
    Darren Islar: well I think that thoughts aren't as easy to change as it might appear
    Mickorod Renard: there are practices that one can do to divert ones attention to pain,,as in if you are being tortured etc
    Fefonz Quan: even if you say there are ways Darren, if thoose way differ from the ways for reguular thoughts = QED
    Darren Islar: sorry,what is QED?
    Calvino Rabeni: Practices of dissociation are easier than other practices, it seems
    Fefonz Quan: like in Geometry - we have proved what we meant to prove - that these categories are differeent
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,maybe its a defense practice,,survival
    Darren Islar: I don't know, but I wonder if the ways differ
    Calvino Rabeni: QED = Quantum Electro Dynamics, or ... "proved"
    Fefonz Quan: for me it is much easier to see the pain as it is without falling into negative thoughts about it
    Mickorod Renard: part of a practice in removing thoughts of pain are to attach another flavour to it
    Fefonz Quan: and i am not even sure i can or *want* to not feel pain
    Mickorod Renard: flavour as in,,another quality
    Darren Islar: that is another question
    Darren Islar: but I think that they are not as far apart as we often might think
    Fefonz Quan: but in the first split second mick, i need to be aware there is pain in order to 'give' it some flavour
    Darren Islar: we think we can 'control' our thoughts
    Darren Islar: I wonder if that is true
    Fefonz Quan: not control, no
    Darren Islar: and if it is easier to let those thoughts go then physical pain
    Mickorod Renard: yes Fefonze, I dont think there is a way of avoiding recognition at initial stage
    Calvino Rabeni: it is barely true, maybe a small amount of control is possible
    Darren Islar: no, you're right, control is not the right word
    Calvino Rabeni: Attention is more controllable than other phenomena
    Fefonz Quan: but changing our point of view - that's i strongly believe is accesible
    Darren Islar: I am often surprsised how my thoughts seem to have a way of there own
    Calvino Rabeni: But still a familiar way
    Darren Islar: to me that goes for pain and thoughts
    Darren Islar: hey Ewan
    Mickorod Renard: some altered associations can be achieved through hypnosis,,would this open up another thought on what we are discussing?
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Ewan
    Ewan Bonham: Hi folks
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Ewan
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Ewan.
    --BELL--
    Bleu Oleander: hi Ewan
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi ewan
    Darren Islar: maybe Mick that thoughts are anchored on a deep level
    Mickorod Renard: its funny how complex our thoughts are and yet its not so dificult to manipulate peoples thoughtsthrough suggestion etc
    Fefonz Quan: maybe it's the other way around - they can be manipulated because they are so complex
    Ewan Bonham: Would attempting to manipulate be a form of attachment ?
    Fefonz Quan: this is also true in other things in life - ccomplex system are more vulnurabel
    Mickorod Renard: mm,,yes
    Darren Islar: yes
    Darren Islar: ro manipulate your own thoughts you mean Ewan?
    Fefonz Quan: automanipulation.. hmmm.
    Mickorod Renard: btw Fef,,are cloaking devices a form of refracted light?
    Ewan Bonham: Well i think it is both ways
    Ewan Bonham: If i want to manipulate someone
    Fefonz Quan: if i knew what cloaking devicesa are/..
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Ewan Bonham: I am manipulating my thinking to attempt to amnipulate the other person..:)
    Calvino Rabeni: That question is basically the same as asking - What is Communication?
    Ewan Bonham: That binds up my mind
    Darren Islar: well, i guess it depends on the form of manipulation
    Fefonz Quan: when you say that it sounds like Comanipulation Cal :)
    Darren Islar: but manipulation, if you start to believe in it, can take away a clear view on your thoughts, I should say
    Ewan Bonham: :)Darren
    Calvino Rabeni: There are recent studies that show (1) much / most communication is unconscious and (2) it works "both ways" so is not really "manipulation"
    Mickorod Renard: well,,probe interogation techniques do use more minipulative methods than just asking a question in simple form
    Darren Islar: yes, and sometimes people say and believe they did something, while they didn't
    Calvino Rabeni: Of course that is the "normal" or most common cases - which actually are important and interesting compared to the unusual cases
    Bleu Oleander: manipulate can mean to manage or utilize skillfully or to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
    Bleu Oleander: in what sense are you using the word?
    Qt Core: time to go, bye all
    Bleu Oleander: bye Qt
    Fefonz Quan: bye Qt
    Mickorod Renard: bye QT,,was in romulan or vulcam?
    Calvino Rabeni: However, they don't capture the interest and fascination because they don't have the emotional "juice" of power relationships
    Darren Islar: yes Bleu, I think much depends on what you really mean
    Qt Core: >:-)
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Darren Islar: bye QT
    Ewan Bonham: Blue, I would use it whenever the intent is to get someone to think in the way i want them to think
    --BELL--
    Darren Islar: Ewan means, I mean
    Darren Islar: :)
    Bleu Oleander: so more in the sense of manipulating to your own advantage
    Darren Islar: the way you put it sounds like a violant act
    Calvino Rabeni: :) darren
    Bleu Oleander: techniques often used in sales for example
    Ewan Bonham: Blue..yes..IF I was manipulating
    Ewan Bonham: ã‹¡ Darren
    Fefonz Quan: time to go for me, good night all!
    Bleu Oleander: nite Fef
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
    Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
    Darren Islar: you just did Ewan, even if you didn't mean it
    Ewan Bonham: Good night Fefonz
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, fef.
    Mickorod Renard: the degree of ones ability to articulate an arguament can/debate can decide whether one angle is right or wrong,,not the justification of the facts
    Mickorod Renard: goodnight Fef
    Bleu Oleander: bye all :) have a good evening
    Darren Islar: bye Fonz :))
    Mickorod Renard: bye Bleu
    Calvino Rabeni: If you mean influence in rhetoric, Mick,
    Darren Islar: bye Bleu
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye bye, Bleu.
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I lot of that influence is also nonverbal
    Mickorod Renard: I am sometimes facinated in hearing debate on aggression
    Calvino Rabeni: and probably wouldn't come across here very well
    Bruce Mowbray: which, Cal, the debate or the aggression?
    Mickorod Renard: physical aggression is seen as wrong,,yet bullying techniques by articulate persons is seen as educated
    Darren Islar: no, that makes it hard to understand each other sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: The nonverbal aspects of influence wouldn't come across well here
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Bruce Mowbray: I see. ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: The medium here, tends to change us to "talking heads"
    Ewan Bonham: Well people do bump each other
    Bruce Mowbray: There are aggressive gestures in SL, th9ough.
    Ewan Bonham: They also have their own way of dancing
    Ewan Bonham: Yes, there are animations as well
    Calvino Rabeni: There are, but mostly people aren't affected by them
    Calvino Rabeni: If you had body response monitors I believe they would show a big difference
    Bruce Mowbray: A dissociative (emotionally) will not be affected even by aggressive verbal behavior.
    Darren Islar: what you don't see is the unconscious nonverbal talk
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Darren Islar: they don't show up in animations
    Calvino Rabeni: Nor true body energy effects
    Calvino Rabeni: don't show up
    Bruce Mowbray: (There may also be aggression going on in IM's that others do not see.)
    Darren Islar: right
    Ewan Bonham: Yes, internal dialogue
    Mickorod Renard: I have found that during phillosophical debates,,the art of persuasion comes from finding enough words that noone else knows enough about to be able to challenge succesfully
    Calvino Rabeni: What is meant by "aggression" ?
    Ewan Bonham: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: I have 2 kittens - they spend a lot of time fighting in play - is it aggression?
    Mickorod Renard: it may well be determining pecking order Cal
    Darren Islar: hard one Cal, because it is a preparation for killing
    Calvino Rabeni: @mick, persuasion undercuts understanding in that case
    Darren Islar: but as playful act, I should say no
    Darren Islar: maybe it depends on the effect it has on you
    Darren Islar: it can build up your self esteem
    Calvino Rabeni: the kittens don't seem to have anything we'd call a negative emotion during that play- fighting
    Darren Islar: in the right way I mean, knowing your strength
    Calvino Rabeni: true
    Darren Islar: right
    Darren Islar: and maybe even not when they make a kill
    Darren Islar: but they do kill
    Mickorod Renard: in a wolf pack,,the play is a precurser I would think,,to greater things later on
    Calvino Rabeni: probably not
    Calvino Rabeni: but fignting another cat - then they are angry
    Bruce Mowbray: Some day I'd like to explore the term "hero" -- and see how that plays. . .
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni likes it
    Darren Islar: well, if I look at the expression on Bruces face, doing his 'act', I see aggression
    Bruce Mowbray: for example, I feel that "lucid dreaming" is a form of heroics.
    Darren Islar: like there is aggression needed to show your muscles
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd say the same about the "spiritual quest"
    Darren Islar: question is what kind of effect this has?
    Mickorod Renard: I see your point Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: indeed, heroics in the spiritual quest...
    Calvino Rabeni: It comes looking like Odysseus
    Bruce Mowbray: Heroic awareness!
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: And that might be a way to make it motivating
    Bruce Mowbray: sorry, guys, but I'm going to have to go. Thanks!
    Darren Islar: bye Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: G'night.
    Ewan Bonham: bye Bruce
    Darren Islar: is that lucid dreaming or daydreaming?
    Mickorod Renard: also lucid dreaming is a good place to flex ones secret pychcopath tendancesic
    Mickorod Renard: I woder why my letters to some words end up in the wrong place?
    Darren Islar: :)
    Ewan Bonham: Isthat a form of manipulation?
    Darren Islar: I have an idea about that Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Dialogue is stressful too, isn't it ?
    Mickorod Renard: I think one hand must type slower than the other one
    Darren Islar: manipulation is a difficult word, since we all use it
    Darren Islar: and sometimes for the better, often not
    Ewan Bonham: Maybe the one hand is manipulating the other
    Darren Islar: because the best manipulation occours when you belief it yourslef
    Darren Islar: which means that your mind is actually clouded, not clear
    Calvino Rabeni: What role does manipulation play in the stressfulness of dialogue?
    Mickorod Renard: this almost comes the full circle,,how much has our lifes conforming to norms has conditioned todays thoughts?
    Darren Islar: wha do you mean with stressulness Cal?
    Darren Islar: a lot Mick
    Calvino Rabeni: Tension, energy, subliminal fight-or-flight activity
    Darren Islar: I think
    Calvino Rabeni: those are components of a stress response
    Calvino Rabeni: Generation of some kinds of automatic mental activity - compulsive thoughts - another sign of stress
    Darren Islar: yes and very recognizable
    Ewan Bonham: To me stressfulness is a friction in thoughts
    Calvino Rabeni: We can rub two thoughts together to make enough friction to start a fire sometimes
    Darren Islar: is a dialogue always connected to stress?
    Ewan Bonham: Cal ã‹¡
    Darren Islar: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It might be, Darren
    Mickorod Renard: are compulsive thoughts just another form of un answered questions?
    Calvino Rabeni: I can see it that way...
    Mickorod Renard: or rather,,non resolved issues?
    Calvino Rabeni: unfinished business
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: the body carries a tension, as part of the somatic act of completing the thought
    Mickorod Renard: I bet we all have them to some degree
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, maybe it is massive
    Darren Islar: yes, I think true dialogue does need concentration, but not friction
    Darren Islar: but a lot of times we do feel that friction due to un answered questions?
    Calvino Rabeni: The friction is intra-psychic a lot of the time
    Darren Islar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: that is, between opposing tendencies or "parts" of self
    Mickorod Renard: I think if most people addmitted to what they thought about, most would be committed (well I hope most are like me)
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The dream workshop was interesting in that regard
    Calvino Rabeni: hallucinations are common, and not unusual, experiences
    Calvino Rabeni: that are usually stigmatized so much they cannot be discussed
    Ewan Bonham: Yes, if others only knew...lol
    Mickorod Renard: hallucinations during stress?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or during sleep, or daydreaming, or .... any time the conscious self relaxes its grip
    Mickorod Renard: now thats an interesting strand
    --BELL--
    Mickorod Renard: could it be suggested that,,,if one relaxed into an exploration of abstract thought it is likely they ewill hallusinate?#
    Ewan Bonham: Oh, oh...I do it all the time..
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure what you mean by "abstract thought", but relaxation might allow imaginative communication from subconscious parts of the mind to appear as various levels of hallucination
    Mickorod Renard: I would like to think, that generaly most people hold their abstract thinking close to the surface,,but there are others,,parhaps like us who delve deeper?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it would diverge from "abstract" in quality
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,can u think of another word?
    Ewan Bonham: I am a deep thinker...Is that dangerous?
    Calvino Rabeni: Interesting question - what is it to "delve deeper" ?
    Calvino Rabeni: ehehe Ewan :)
    Mickorod Renard: well,I can only make judgement based on those whome i share life with,,in compassison I am much more bizzare in thought
    Mickorod Renard: thats why i like it here
    Mickorod Renard: but delve deeper,,yeds,,thats difficult to quantify
    Mickorod Renard: so I suspect what I am meaning is that there is a standard in normality
    Ewan Bonham: Interesting concept..'suspect what I am meaning'...
    Calvino Rabeni: Part of "deeper" is to revisit something repeatedly, like it were a thing that can develop
    Ewan Bonham: Could that be an example of deeper thinking?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think so,Ewan
    Mickorod Renard: thats an interesting idea Cal,,it reminds me of a dream i recited here a year ago
    Mickorod Renard: it was in reference to being a pearl diver
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, deeper - one can ask - do I feel "finished" with that topic - and feel different in some way, if so, how?
    Mickorod Renard: and i dived deeper each time,,deeper and deeper
    Calvino Rabeni: Or if not, then what now?
    Calvino Rabeni: That metaphor is nice, it captures the revisiting and the effort
    Ewan Bonham: Mick ã‹¡
    Darren Islar: I like the repeated thinking
    Mickorod Renard: to the point that came to a barrier which suggested that I risked loosing life as we know it(jim),,but the comfort in the deep had developed that I chose the deep
    Calvino Rabeni: Like, is Dialogue stressful - ... How does it seem ... Now?
    Darren Islar: sorry, repeated thinking is following patterns, I mean revisiting thoughts
    Mickorod Renard: mmm,,yes revisiting thoughts,,perhaps unanswered?
    Calvino Rabeni: "Comfort in the deep" - a requirement for contemplation
    Calvino Rabeni: Ability to be confortable with unanswered questions
    Darren Islar: comfort in the deep, understanding that thoughts are thoughts
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,the other interesting thing was that ships passed over head with people on ,,they were oblivious to the beauty below
    Calvino Rabeni: Managing the stress and tension related to not knowing
    Calvino Rabeni: Nice dream, Mick
    Mickorod Renard: it was lovely because there was an enchanting poem running through it too
    Calvino Rabeni: :))
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Darren Islar: almost midnight
    Darren Islar: I need to go
    Calvino Rabeni: It is something to remember and review
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,i must hit the sack
    Darren Islar: bye everyone :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Same here, time to go :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Darren
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Cal
    --BELL--
    Mickorod Renard: I need to sneak off too Ewan and yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
    Mickorod Renard: nice chatting
    Ewan Bonham: Bye for now.
    Mickorod Renard: byeeeee
     

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