2010.08.01 07:00 - Are Trees Conscious? or Beginning of the Dog Days

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

    This was a two hour session which started with a discussion of how we react to the perceptions of ohers about us and then turned to movement, life and consciousness. I crashed in the middle due to the  fact my power connection was unplugged in the middle and my battery ran out. For a while in the middle of the session the circle was close to being filled with avatars, but the beginning and the ends were a more intimate group.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey you both :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: long time no see selene :P
    Hamlet Graves: hello Yakuzza
    Selene Northman: hi Yakuzza
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bruce :)
    Selene Northman: just do an ordinarytext chat :)
    Selene Northman: hi Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Selene.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi adams
    Yakuzza Lethecus: what group is siwoare btw ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Ada.s
    Adams Rubble: Hello Bruce and Yakuzza :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Adams.
    --BELL--
    Adams Rubble: I Hope everyone is well
    Adams Rubble: and that oyu have great weather :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: relativly
    Bruce Mowbray: Very well, thanks -- I've just returned from a fine morening walk with my dog.
    Bruce Mowbray: morning.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: lol, rl right now is better then sl :P
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Adams Rubble: Today starts the dog days :)
    Adams Rubble: month of August
    Bruce Mowbray: woof!
    Bruce Mowbray: How goesw it with you today, Adams?
    Bruce Mowbray: goes.
    Adams Rubble: I am well, thank you
    Bruce Mowbray: et tu, Yaku?
    Adams Rubble: Does anyone have anything they would like to discuss?
    Adams Rubble: Does the retreat start today?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: si estoy bien, gracias
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello adoro :)
    adoro Rhapsody: hi
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, adoro!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i have a subject in mind i can´t disconnect from still don´t know how to present or knowing if it fits
    Yakuzza Lethecus: terrible
    Bruce Mowbray: give it a try, Yaku, if you wish.
    Adams Rubble: well best to try it out to find out
    adoro Rhapsody: maybe we can help ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean we have our own perception and i don´t share too much about me when i listen around here
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Yakuzza Lethecus: somebody created a perception of me that totally didn´t fit my picture
    Adams Rubble: we can remove anything from the log later if needs be
    adoro Rhapsody: lets do it in little staps
    Bruce Mowbray: say more, please.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s terrible because i am usually hanging around many places at once and i even told that to many here, still some ppl don´t seem to know that and are still a bit alienated when i don´t share enough
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean when i see ,, a personal subject which i have an opinion upon i share"
    adoro Rhapsody: we dont mind
    Adams Rubble: I think not sharing personal things is even a good thing because it keeps the discussion focused on everyone
    Adams Rubble: if that makes sense
    Adams Rubble: there is much I have not shared myself
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, still i think i shared generally most of me but not to every single person, but i bet when you get to the logs you gain a full picture of me, even tho that i am just around in most sessions
    Adams Rubble: yes, if one has time to do that (giggles)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, that is exactly the issue when somebody diagnoses something but you ain´t be able to talk since an unbiased natural picture of any involved needs so much efford
    Bruce Mowbray: Until I heard your voice, Yaku, I had a very different "image" of you.
    Adams Rubble: sometimes we share something personal to illustrate a point (which if I understand correctly may be what you are saying)
    --BELL--
    Bruce Mowbray: When you spoke of your "uncomfortableness" with periods of silence (last week - at the 12 p.m. "voice" session), my image of you changed - about 180 degrees.
    adoro Rhapsody: but what does it matter what other people think of u ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: Up until then, I'd been seeing myself as the LOUD MOUTH - in contrast to you (strong, silent, and wise).
    Yakuzza Lethecus: to some degree, when things threaten the natural engagement with new ppl
    Bruce Mowbray: I still see you as strong, silent, and wise -- but I am no longer judging myself. . .
    adoro Rhapsody: me too
    Adams Rubble: Hello Agatha :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the creation of some stigma´s is a real problem for me since i hang around places i am not interested in in particular
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi there, aggers.
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Adams :)
    adoro Rhapsody: hi
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello everyone
    Yakuzza Lethecus: even this was mumbo jumbo and i go basicly to all the events around here and sl when i can do it in a timely manner
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i prefer kira/pab related stuff since i already trust the ppl better
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    adoro Rhapsody: me too
    Agatha Macbeth: A trustworthy lot :)
    Bruce Mowbray understand and agrees with Yaku's point heere.
    Bruce Mowbray: here.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so i still like the ppl but some stigma´s draw line´s about things i am exploring that´s what i fear
    adoro Rhapsody: stigma's ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: even tho those are simply idiosyncatic perceptions of individuals
    Bruce Mowbray: Trying to understand better: Yaku, do you feel that others are stigmatizing you -- because of what you say/ don't say - or because of the sims you allear in?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: that happened to me lately once
    adoro Rhapsody: what u mean by stigma's by other people ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and i still can´t really disconnect from that, because the picture was drawn even in a direction of aggression
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and that is an emotion i haven´t had in sl
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Bruce Mowbray: Mmmm. . . I'm sorry to hear that.
    adoro Rhapsody: i see
    adoro Rhapsody: all emotions can come real in sl
    Agatha Macbeth: You had a griefer Yaku?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no i was percieved as one i fear
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh dear
    Adams Rubble: ohhh
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean of course when some ppl aren´t around here that often
    Adams Rubble: I don;t think anyone in PaB would see you that way
    Bruce Mowbray: That happened to me once -- I was actually banned from a sim because of a misunderstanding.
    Agatha Macbeth: Perhaps it was a misunderstanding
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and i just hang around and i dno´t share anything
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it can happen
    adoro Rhapsody: maybe we can reduce your fear
    Yakuzza Lethecus: some ppl just don´t have a picture and only percieve someoone who´s just there and reading everything
    Adams Rubble: I think you should just not worry about it Yakuzza
    Bruce Mowbray: agrees with adoro.
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    adoro Rhapsody: fear is noting to be afraid of
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i know, i can´t cope with it very well right now since i was somewhat alienated from that picture
    Adams Rubble: You are a much loved member of PaB :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but to some extend i can only try to understand why the picture was generated
    Bruce Mowbray thinks of himself as an "immersive" in SL -- and suspects that Yaku is also an "immersive."
    Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, yes :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: that was the subject yesterday at "state of being"
    Bruce Mowbray: Indeed, Yaku, you are muched loved and appreciated here.
    Bruce Mowbray: much.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: that´s a group around rockcliff bruce and i are going to usually
    Agatha Macbeth: Yaku, perhaps the other person interpreted something the wrong way, I wouldn't worry about it
    Yakuzza Lethecus: roadside philosophers/state of being is every other saturday
    Bruce Mowbray: (actually, Yaku, the "State of Being" talk (by Pamala Clift) is given just once a month. . . although there was a special session yesterday for Europeans.
    adoro Rhapsody: in sl all kinds of misunderstandings can happen beacuse of outer aspects
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, for me it´s somewhat important to ,,just hang around ppl whom like to share openly"
    Bruce Mowbray: You are right, though, that Roadside Philosophers meets every other week.
    Adams Rubble: please do then Yak :)
    Agatha Macbeth zooms in on Adams' new t-shirt
    Bruce Mowbray: By all means, please do continue to "hang around" -- I value your being here very much.
    adoro Rhapsody: me too
    Agatha Macbeth: Buddhist architecture eh? :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Cute
    Bruce Mowbray: The Museum of Sacred art is a wonderful sim -- I highly recommend it.
    Adams Rubble: new series I am making Agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: I'm still checking out those Islamic places btw Adams :)
    Adams Rubble: one for each tradition
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    --BELL--
    Bruce Mowbray: Architecture can be so "informative" about a culture -- It's like a sculptural embodiment -- a "Meta-form" that expresses both values and world-view.
    Adams Rubble: Sorry for the interruption, Yak.
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes
    Bruce Mowbray: Good day, Aph!
    Adams Rubble: I think it easy for people to misinterpret things and that is beyond our control
    Bruce Mowbray: Good day, Dream.
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes Yaku, what Bruce said
    Adams Rubble: hell Aphrodite and Dream
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Aphro
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi aph
    Aphrodite Macbain: morning all
    Agatha Macbeth: And dream too
    Dream Wrexan: hi, folks
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and dream
    adoro Rhapsody: hi
    Adams Rubble: Dream, have you been here before?
    Dream Wrexan: yes, adams - recording, bell, etc. thanks
    Bruce Mowbray: Like Yaku [perhaps] , I identify emotionally with what's happening in SL -- and especially in these sessions.
    Adams Rubble: ohh, I recognizze your profile. sorry, my memory is faulty
    Dream Wrexan: np :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Me too Bruce :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Something happened Friday that "upset me" for several hours.
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh?
    Dream Wrexan: awww, Bruce :-(
    Aphrodite Macbain: what was that Bruce?
    adoro Rhapsody: ?
    Bruce Mowbray: I actually went back to the transcript (wiki) and re-read every line and made annotations -- to be sure I was perceiving accurately. That helped enormously.
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    adoro Rhapsody: i see
    Bruce Mowbray: There was a discussion of PTSD -- and Calvino was doing a wonderful job of defining terms...
    Aphrodite Macbain: Oh someonee said something that upset you?
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    Agatha Macbeth: Sometimes it's possible to read something that isn't meant, yes
    Bruce Mowbray: different types of "stress" --
    adoro Rhapsody: or stee
    adoro Rhapsody: stree /
    Bruce Mowbray: and someone seemed (to me) to attack him for semantic manipulations, etc.
    Adams Rubble: we all are human beings behind our avatars in SL; it can be just as real as RL
    Agatha Macbeth grins
    Adams Rubble: Hello Sharon :)
    Bruce Mowbray: yes -- the whole "Streeee" thing - was very upsetting to one of the participants -
    Dream Wrexan: hi, sharon
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    Aphrodite Macbain: guess I wassn't there. Not sure what streee is
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Shaz :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Adams and adora, Aphrodite, Yaku, Dream and Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: I'd rather not discuss him - since he's not here -- but it did cause me to look more carefully into how I was dealing with the whole PaB phenomenon.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and Agatha
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Shqaron!
    Aphrodite Macbain: You were too "immersive?" as Pamala would say?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ohh i like that spelling ;p
    Agatha Macbeth: Sounds Albanian
    Bruce Mowbray: I am, INDDED, immersive, Aph.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: heh
    Bruce Mowbray: Indeed.
    Aphrodite Macbain: so.., can you change that in any way?
    Bruce Mowbray: I have no wish to NOT be an immersive-- That emotional investment, on my part, is what makes PaB so valuable for me.
    Agatha Macbeth: I agree bruce
    Adams Rubble: When we first do something we often put ourselves into it in a deep way and then later find a balance
    adoro Rhapsody: me too
    Adams Rubble: we get busy with other things
    Aphrodite Macbain: you will take the good with the bad!
    Bruce Mowbray: agree, Adams.
    adoro Rhapsody: i agree bruce
    adoro Rhapsody: its the same feeling for me
    adoro Rhapsody: and the value of pab
    Bruce Mowbray: I felt that my avatar (Bruce) has gone through stages of maturation -- and right now he's still an adolescent.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Adams Rubble: I used to go to 3 sessions a day when I had more time :)
    Bruce Mowbray: and that's a GOOD thing!
    Bruce Mowbray: although a bit painful at times.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, reminds me of beginners mind
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    adoro Rhapsody: we have to become child
    Bruce Mowbray: I still go to three sessions a day if I can stay awake for the one at night.
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes, you are more open and vulnerable as an adolescent
    Bruce Mowbray: also more idealistic and passionate.
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    adoro Rhapsody: second childhood
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-) --- Hey, I'll take all the childhoods I can get!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :D
    Agatha Macbeth agrees
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: maybe there r more
    Adams Rubble: Hello Bertram :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Bert :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Berti :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi bert
    adoro Rhapsody: hi bert
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Bert!
    Bertram Jacobus: hey everybody ! :-)
    Bruce Mowbray makes an observation: I am feeling right now as if I am monopolizing the dialogue - and that Yaku has "gone quiet" BECAUSE of my dominance here.
    Bertram Jacobus: i come just from the cinema - the brandnew movie "inception" - an intersting game with thoughts, dreams and reality ... ;-)
    Agatha Macbeth: He's just asleep again :)
    Bruce Mowbray: just a thought. . . probably because I'm so "immersed."
    Bruce Mowbray: I've GOT to see that movie!!
    Adams Rubble: Only Yakuzza can answer that but I don't see it that way bruce
    --BELL--
    Bruce Mowbray: thanks.
    Agatha Macbeth: Which movie?
    Bruce Mowbray: Inception.
    adoro Rhapsody: well i have to go again. it was a realpleasure
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye adoro :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Take care Adoro
    Bruce Mowbray: always great to have your company, adoro.
    Adams Rubble: PaB has always thrived on the enthusiasm and explorations of those who are coming regularly at any particular time
    Adams Rubble: Your enthusiasm is contagious Bruce
    Bertram Jacobus: bye adoro - may be you read this in the log ... once , perhaps ... :-)
    Adams Rubble: bye adoro
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and like any thing of this nature it's normal for that to wax and wane as time and life permits :))
    Bertram Jacobus: and i´m still and always confused, when in buddhist teachings the popics "illusion" and "nothing is real" come up - somebody understands these statements ?
    Adams Rubble: yes, even though the waning causes a bit of sadness :)
    Bertram Jacobus: topics*
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles at Adams
    Bertram Jacobus: sry - didn´t want to disturb the running discussion
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sometimes when I write something or talk about it, I have the feeling of understanding, or that I'm close, like I'll get it any second
    Adams Rubble: that's a mighty big topic Bert :)
    Bruce Mowbray: No-- that's great, Bert (for me anyway). . . go ahead with your questioning, please -- of "illusion" and "Real"...
    Adams Rubble: to bert: but it is our "self" that is the illusion
    Bruce Mowbray: My "understand" of it is that Buddhism says the "core" of everything is emptiness -- not "essence."
    Bruce Mowbray: including "self" -- especially that!
    Bertram Jacobus: but may be i understand the words illusion and not real in a wrong way - i know that all is changing constantly and has no inherant existence and all that, but "unreal" ? in a relative way ? can´t believe such -
    SophiaSharon Larnia: can you say more about the different of core and essence Bruce?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: difference*
    Bertram Jacobus: but also emptiness is sometimes explained as simply interdepending and not existing from self ...
    Bruce Mowbray: at the center (hub) of Buddhism's "wheel" is emptiness: not a core essence (as with Platonic thought).
    Bruce Mowbray: or a "soul" as with Christian thought.
    Bertram Jacobus: but your comment is interesting anyway bruce - i like to contemnplate about that a bit ...
    Bruce Mowbray: the 10,000 things emerge out of silence and emptiness. . . not given by the hand of God, as it were.
    Bruce Mowbray: I wish Calvino were here -- He does this a lot better than I do.
    Bertram Jacobus: i find the question also interesting : in the center of a turning wheel : is there movement or not ? ;-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Bless him
    Bruce Mowbray: the whole universe turns around that hub.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: maybe some awareness of watching the turning?
    Bruce Mowbray: including the hub itself.
    Bruce Mowbray: a couple of days ago, a similar topic was raised...
    Bertram Jacobus: which one ?
    Bruce Mowbray: and the image of galaxies being "distant" and "cold" came up. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: and I thought: "A galaxy is a group-hugging of stars.
    Bertram Jacobus: and additionally : may be movement is life and when things stand still - death (?) ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: anthropomorphic stars
    Bruce Mowbray loves the image of movement as Life!
    Bruce Mowbray: (especially since everything MOVS!
    Bruce Mowbray: moves.
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: movement is energy which must be life
    Bruce Mowbray: Are silences here (breaks----). . . not alive?
    Aphrodite Macbain: he he
    Aphrodite Macbain: they are in our minds perhaps
    Bertram Jacobus: (by the way : i live only two minutes away from the biggest cinema in our one million inhibitants counting town) "lucky me" ... :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: when I make the effort to really engage in them, they feel very alive to me
    Bruce Mowbray: Wow, Bert. The nearest cinema to where I live is 30 miles away. . . what would that be in km's?
    Agatha Macbeth: The Hall calls....
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. may be movement on more subtile stages ...
    Bruce Mowbray: have a great day, aggers.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Aggers see you there :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Take care everyone
    Bertram Jacobus: around 48 bruce ... ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: wow.
    --BELL--
    Bertram Jacobus: bye aggers and hy selene ...
    Bertram Jacobus: oops
    Selene Northman: Greetings, everyone :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey selene :)
    Bruce Mowbray: bonjour, Selene
    Bruce Mowbray: Good day, Hamlet.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Selene, Hi Hamlet
    Bertram Jacobus: hello hamlet :-)
    Selene Northman: hi Sophia :)
    Bruce Mowbray: welcome back, Adams.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi hamlet
    Selene Northman: hi Adams :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it seems our guardian for the session crashed :(
    Hamlet Graves: hi bertram, Sophia, Yakuzza et al
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wb Adams
    Yakuzza Lethecus: wb adams :)
    Adams Rubble: sorry, my computer was not plugged in right and the battery ran out :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: eep
    Selene Northman: May I ask about the topic?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: is the guardian session today ?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Yaku
    Bertram Jacobus: the last point was a thesis life = movement selene ... ;-)
    Selene Northman: yes actually it derives from Montaigne
    Bertram Jacobus: but sry - i leave already again - cu later may be all - ty and have a good time plz !
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Bert :)
    Adams Rubble: bye Bert
    Hamlet Graves: bye Bert
    Bertram Jacobus waves ... :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye bert
    Selene Northman waves back
    Hamlet Graves: life = movement ? how did he/she come to that conclusion ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i think i will also sneak out to the guardian session since aga and bert seem to be alone
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
    Adams Rubble: bye Yakuzza
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Yaku :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Bert was curious about Buddhism's concepts of "illusion" and "not real" -- and that turned to "emptiness" and that turned to "movement-life."
    Hamlet Graves: bye Yaku ?
    Hamlet Graves: -?
    Selene Northman: bye Yakuzza
    Hamlet Graves: so something which has no movement has no life ?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nice synopsis Bruce, that is not my strong point lol
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I think that was what Bert was aiming toward--
    Bruce Mowbray: I'd raised the question of whether our breaks of silence here are "alive"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: in the world of matter, in my direct experience, life is change and change can be perceived as movement
    Bruce Mowbray: and if so, HOW are they alive?
    Adams Rubble: I would think it is up to each indidual as to whether they are alive
    Selene Northman: I thought gthe silence should last 90 seconds...
    Hamlet Graves: if my mind is at rest does that mean it is dead ?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the bell was ringing as you arrived :)
    Bruce Mowbray: that's the point, Hamlet ---
    Bruce Mowbray: also, the passage of "time" seems to involve movement and change. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: so is "time" integrally connected to "life"?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: *smiles*
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
    Adams Rubble: or is our life on a timer (giggles)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: eep haha
    Hamlet Graves: time and space are both illusory my friends, if you think movement constitutes life then look again
    Bruce Mowbray: agreed, Hamlet. . . it's not either/or, though.
    Bruce Mowbray: erosion of "non-living" rocks, for example
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wondering about the definition of life :)
    Bruce Mowbray: That's change and movement through time ---
    --BELL--
    Bruce Mowbray: chemical changes -- like rusting --
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye for now all
    SophiaSharon Larnia: have fun :))
    Bruce Mowbray just experienced an illusory 90 second break.
    Selene Northman: bye Sophia tc :)
    Adams Rubble: bye Sharon :)
    Hamlet Graves: rusting ? how does that constitute life ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Sharon.
    Adams Rubble: life has its cycles
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm not saying that rusting does contitute life -- only that we might be deceiving ourselves to think that "life" is limited to those things we presently think to be "alive."
    Bruce Mowbray: an artifact of the "modern age," perhqaps.
    Adams Rubble: life includes dying
    Hamlet Graves: I think we need to be clear what we mean by 'life'
    Hamlet Graves: I mean consciousness
    Bruce Mowbray: Go for it, Hamlet. The more I try to get clear about it, the less clear it becomes, for me.
    Hamlet Graves: others may mean somethign else
    Bruce Mowbray: Are trees conscious?
    Hamlet Graves: I don;t know :: shrug ::
    Bruce Mowbray: Are galaxies conscious?
    Hamlet Graves: we can't tell
    Bruce Mowbray: mmmm. . . .
    Bruce Mowbray: But galaxies (at least one of them -- ours) contain life. . .
    Hamlet Graves: just because we lack the ability to communicate with a tree or a galaxy it doesn;t mean they don;t have consciousness
    Bruce Mowbray: sorry, but I do not lack the ability to communicate with trees.
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Hamlet Graves: well the obviously they do have conscousness if you can communicate with them
    Selene Northman: what can we tell ? I mean the humans are ending a certain stage of life by moving over to death and might be getting born again or not:) I never understood the reply of the trees ;)
    Bruce Mowbray: I don't mean to be confrontational or didactic here, but my communion and communication with trees is absolutely essential to my personal sense of well-being.
    Hamlet Graves: there's no need to labout the point lol
    Bruce Mowbray: and I suspect that the trees might feel the same.
    Hamlet Graves: lets not digress
    Hamlet Graves: we;ve established that trees have consciouness
    Bruce Mowbray: This spring, I had to make a BIG decision about whether to have a 200-year-old oak in my yard cut down.
    Bruce Mowbray: It was a major ethical problem for me.
    Bruce Mowbray: Eventually, I came to see that the only way I could make that decision was through consulting with the tree -- and with the trees around it.
    Bruce Mowbray: THEY told me what to do.
    Hamlet Graves: I hope it came to an equtablke conclusion
    Bruce Mowbray: It was a life-changer, for sure.
    Hamlet Graves: so ... trees have consciouness then presumably galaxies too
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I like that.
    Bruce Mowbray: and presumably, so do oil reservoirs under the sea.
    Hamlet Graves: in fact the whole universe is suffused with consciouness
    Bruce Mowbray: Did anyone ask the oil if it wanted to be released ?
    Hamlet Graves: doubt it
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Hamlet -- agree entirely with that.
    Hamlet Graves: great
    Bruce Mowbray: else. . . what is emergence - evolution - living things emerging from non-living... etc.?
    Bruce Mowbray: so-called "primitive" cultures affirm the "living-ness" of all things.
    Hamlet Graves: but are we getting closer to resolving this 'movement=life' thing ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Good question -- thanks for bringing us full-circle.
    Hamlet Graves: nothing in the physical worls is ever really at rest afaik
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey Adams -- is sacred architecture "alive" in some ways that non-sacred architecture is not?
    --BELL--
    Adams Rubble: The question of how "alive" it is depends much on the person perceiving it. Certainly the function is on seeking the eternal
    Adams Rubble: timelessness
    Selene Northman: unity
    Hamlet Graves: I would say that sacred architecture has a vibration both in terms of it's geometry and the intention and practice in which it was created
    Hamlet Graves: *its
    Adams Rubble: yes to both
    Adams Rubble: both Selene and Hamlet that is
    Hamlet Graves: the human spirit resonates to the vibration and hence it is percieved as having life
    Selene Northman: sacred architecture contains inbuilt metaphysics of a couple of 1000 years sometimes....
    Bruce Mowbray: I take great comfort in remembering that long before there were people around to appreciate beauty, Nature had been producing symmetry, balance, and endless depth and duplication in Her "art": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkGeO...layer_embedded
    Adams Rubble: The more spiritual uses a building or site has, the more sacred it becomes
    Bruce Mowbray: I must confess a bias here: as a Pantheist, I see Nature as the ultimate contest for sacredness and spirituality.
    Bruce Mowbray: context.
    Adams Rubble: There are similarieties between a Pine Forst and a Cathedral
    Adams Rubble: Firest
    Adams Rubble: whoops forest
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes! Wonderful, Adams.
    Hamlet Graves: but surely pan-theism means just as much in a tree as it is in parking-lot
    Bruce Mowbray: ahhhhh, wonderful point! So the subway is a sacred as the cathedral. . . (I think so!)
    Bruce Mowbray: as sacred.
    Adams Rubble: hmmm, smells different (hehe)
    Hamlet Graves: I'd like to think so
    Bruce Mowbray: (That's probably the smell of living things, Adams.)
    Hamlet Graves: I shall make my next subterrainin journey with much less trepidation
    Bruce Mowbray: (disgusting, but still alive).
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Adams Rubble: very much alive
    Adams Rubble: rats and mold are alive too :)
    Bruce Mowbray: sure are.
    Bruce Mowbray: How about when I drink this cup of coffee. . . .
    Bruce Mowbray: when the chemicals in the coffee merge with "me," do they become alive, too?
    Bruce Mowbray: do I not give those chemicals "life" in some way?
    Bruce Mowbray: of is this where the Buddhists' "non-self" comes in?
    Bruce Mowbray: or.
    Bruce Mowbray: body is not self -- coffee is not self.
    Adams Rubble: no to the latter although I am not a Buddhist
    Adams Rubble: It is what we think we are that is the illusion
    Hamlet Graves: sense of smell just detects the checmicals and you are conscious of it
    Bruce Mowbray: I've spent the majority of my life doing "reductionism" -- and am now chosing to think more "holistically"
    Bruce Mowbray: although I appreciate that both - in balance - are necessary.
    --BELL--
    Selene Northman: I´ve spend alot of time in my life being astonished becuase of the phenomena
    Bruce Mowbray: astonishment --- absolutely required for "life" as I mean it.
    Adams Rubble: astonishment is movement :)
    Bruce Mowbray: and ecstasy, too.
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Hamlet Graves: I don';t see why there ios a arequirement for astonishment, consciouness is stil there with or without astonishment
    Adams Rubble: I am afraid I must go. Thank you all for the conversation :)
    Bruce Mowbray: The examples of art/architecture at the Museum are often astonishing.
    Adams Rubble: requirement?
    Bruce Mowbray: I, too, must to gone --- THANKS, everyone.
    Adams Rubble: no requirement
    Bruce Mowbray: Excellent point, Hamlet.
    Adams Rubble waves
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm going to stay a while longer...
    Selene Northman: astonishment is the beginning of phenomenology - which is a step towards consciousness

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