2010.08.04 01:00 - Happyness, Heidegger and the use of suffering

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bolonath Crystal. The comments are by Bolonath Crystal.

    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Crystal ;)
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste cosmicflower :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how are You doing?
    Bolonath Crystal: how are you?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh
    Bolonath Crystal: thx, fine :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: me too, been extremely happy lately
    Bolonath Crystal: wow, sounds nice :))
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh, yes it is ;))
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: little things makes me smiling wide these days
    Bolonath Crystal: happyness is said to be part of our 'real being'
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes, I think so too
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to enjoy life it-Self
    Bolonath Crystal: swami vivekananda once said, that happyness is a sign of spiritual progress :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ahhhh ***
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its very light energy form
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, and I think its also matter of choose
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how to think of things
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how to take them
    Bolonath Crystal nods
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Bert ;))
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, by the way, flu went away ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: last time we saw, talked about the coach
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow - what a nice setting ! :-))
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste bert :)
    Bolonath Crystal: i can only see you on radar...
    Bertram Jacobus: namaste bolo and cosma ! :-)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I see Bert as a white light ball ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: next to me
    Bertram Jacobus: yes - i´m still that little cloud - but does no matter right ? :-)
    Bolonath Crystal: cloud of happyness *g*
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh, sure, no matter ;))

    Astral travellers

    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I do also "travel" sometimes in a form of ball ;)
    Bertram Jacobus: how do you do that cosma ? (or do is disturb a running talk - then , plz , don´t let interrupt you)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: just notived we are here with German and Finnish ;9
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: do travelling?
    Bertram Jacobus: yess , twice :-)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, with aware thought
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and "seeing" what is there
    Bolonath Crystal: we talked before about happyness as part of our real self, bert
    Bertram Jacobus: can you give me an example for that or us cosma perhaps please ? have no experiences with such ...
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: in a way I do travel now too ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: all of us
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: are "travelling" with spirit now
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think
    Bolonath Crystal: always :)
    Bertram Jacobus: but what can you "see" then, for example ?
    Bertram Jacobus: but ... sometimes ... we even can be without thoughts, no ?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well,
    Bolonath Crystal nods
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: see or feel
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sure, can be without thoughts
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there is a state, or dimension
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: where is no words
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: only
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: being
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and seing
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or feeling
    Bolonath Crystal: there is a state behind seeing
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or should I say Knowing
    Bolonath Crystal: "awareness" maybe
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sensing, and getting impressions around
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Bolonath Crystal: as soon as the mind reaches perfect calmness things "stop to happen" somehow. difficult to describe
    Bolonath Crystal: i don't reach this very often :(
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, I found out once when I stopped to think or went to state where was no thoughts or words, i started to move, see star aproaching
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and it took me a little time to realice I was the one who moved
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: more near to one star on space
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and not star coming more near on me
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I was my eyes closed
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but not sleeping
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and then I got exited
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: thought WOOW now its happening something
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and at the same time I did that
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I came back to my bed
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: should not analyce it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but just go and see what happens
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: today in my morning session i had often in my mind the words - follow the thoughts ... not :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: morning session = morning meditation
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
    Bolonath Crystal: hm, these travellings might be distractions on the spiritual path. i'm a little careful with "siddhis"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: what is siddhis?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Cal <3<3<3
    Bolonath Crystal: siddhis are "yogic powers"
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste cal :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hmm, I think spiritual travelling is part of spiritual path
    Bertram Jacobus: hey cal ! what an exquisite round this morning (for europe) here ! ... :-)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: what if those are part of someones nature?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: natural nature
    Calvino Rabeni: <333 Cosmic, Bert and Bolo :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think, in a way they can not be "wrong" then ;)
    Bolonath Crystal: i only spoke for myself, cosmicflower. maybe you are real self's travelling incarnation :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Cal, we are talking about spirit travelling (astral) and happiness ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
    Calvino Rabeni: :) thanks
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby so
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but for sure, there is no need fear about it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Bolonath Crystal: right. i spoke of distraction rather than danger
    Bolonath Crystal: i would be very tempted to get lost in a myriad of exciting worlds
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: what is myriad?
    Bolonath Crystal: a big number
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: "getting lost"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sometimes it might be good
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how many people there are afraid to deth to be "lost"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sometimes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: like being messed up
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: pack of card messed up
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its so much more secure , feel secure not to be "lost"
    Bolonath Crystal: getting lost is a very tempting experience, too :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but from "lost" there might also find something
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: new
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes and
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: in a way
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it demands a bit courage to be lost
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: for a while in lifetime
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: messed up
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and then there is no much controlling
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or analysing
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think
    Bolonath Crystal agrees
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby only seeing what happens next
    Bolonath Crystal: i had those times ...
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have also been pack messed up
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: nothing serious
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but still
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: can say so

    "... and lead us into temptation"

    Calvino Rabeni: Temptation is a fact of human existence and can't be banished through rules and restrictions, however well intended and well defined
    Bolonath Crystal: i wouldn't want to banish it
    Bolonath Crystal: temptation is always a good indicator for attachment
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: be right back
    Bolonath Crystal: pain also, but i'd prefer temptation *g*
    Calvino Rabeni: What I meant is, the kind of spiritual guidelines like - beware, sidhis are distracting or , beware, dancing is a tempation away from god's way
    Bertram Jacobus: also fascination (!)
    Bolonath Crystal nods to both
    Bertram Jacobus: may siddhis be more distracting then dancing ?
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree Bolo, the temptation is a measure or indicator and maybe an inescapable training lesson
    Bolonath Crystal: right
    Calvino Rabeni: @bet, its relative to Who
    Calvino Rabeni: Bert I meant
    Bolonath Crystal: bert, siddhis give you power over samsara. with these powers samsara becomes more tempting and the effords of reaching nirvana will get less. that's the dangerous thing with siddis. you easily get entangled with them
    Bertram Jacobus: okay - i thought : depends. so can agree with you both. can distract but must not
    Calvino Rabeni: A lot depends on your goal, Bolo
    Bolonath Crystal: they can be as helpful as they can be distractive
    Calvino Rabeni: it is dangerous only if it subverts your goal
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good morning
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste yak :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: namaste
    Bertram Jacobus: lol - adancing yaku (!) - never saw that - hi ! :-))
    Bolonath Crystal: yes, exactly, cal
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, a friend brought me to an dancing place
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: back
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t wanted to just stand around and destroy their impression
    Calvino Rabeni: And so often the goal isn't specified
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am not a fan of roackabillie
    Yakuzza Lethecus: also i don´t dislike it
    Calvino Rabeni: Yaku is immune to the tempation of rockabilly
    Bertram Jacobus giggles
    Bolonath Crystal: great. no karma :)
    Bolonath Crystal: sorry, 2 min afk
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Yaku ;)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: namaste cosmic
    Bertram Jacobus: here too : brb
    Bolonath Crystal: back
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste liza :)
    Liza Deischer: hi everyone :)

    Being, Time and hanging around in the Schwarzwald

    Calvino Rabeni: Yaku, what is the source of the Heidegger quote "The Nothing itself nothings" ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Greetings Liza :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hi liza :-9
    Liza Deischer: Bert, to me, you are a sweet little cloud :)
    Bertram Jacobus: aarghs ! ;o) - the ugly nine again ! ;-)
    Bolonath Crystal: hehe
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. ty liza - seems to be to all, including me ... :-)
    Liza Deischer: oops
    Bolonath Crystal: today bert shows us his real nature ;))
    Calvino Rabeni: Bert is a sweet something - not a cloud
    Liza Deischer: hehe :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Liza
    Bertram Jacobus: it simply happens ... :-))
    Liza Deischer: hi Cosmic
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Just gave some food for little sweet one in here ;))
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hellos from Simo also to all ;)
    Bertram Jacobus: happend while trying to help others in clicking the sl interview which occured while logging in "how to help best ?" ... ;-)
    Bolonath Crystal hellos back
    Bolonath Crystal: Hey!
    Bertram Jacobus waves to simo ...
    Liza Deischer: well, nowthey have a problem to solve
    Yakuzza Lethecus: sry, i wasn´t really here as expected i got a coffee and cerials now
    Yakuzza Lethecus: its being and time
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but i NEVER read the book
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so i also only knew the quote
    Calvino Rabeni: hehehe - I tried it in college - it added up to "huh?"
    Bolonath Crystal: *g*
    Calvino Rabeni: Since then I have not *dared* to return :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Sadly, because my friend was a huge fan
    Calvino Rabeni: an thought the secrets of seeing reality might be found there
    Bertram Jacobus: different people, different interests ...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am still stuck with the abstract´s of the books
    Bertram Jacobus: must not be a problem (?)
    Calvino Rabeni: But it was a pretty big *maybe*
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: what book are you talking about?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: even when derrida or other philosophers are mentioned
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Being in Time
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, okey
    Yakuzza Lethecus: It´s an old heidegger book out of the twenties
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: go to google to see it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: goes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ment to say
    Bertram Jacobus: i, for example, prefer buddha ... ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: I went to the library today - found the book "You Don't Have To Be Buddhist To Know Nothing"
    Bolonath Crystal: does someone know the german title?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Sein und Zeit
    Bolonath Crystal: thx :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: So we even have the original text :P
    Calvino Rabeni: ... and that quote was in it.
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, there is a translation into finnish
    Bertram Jacobus: i bought recently the book "what makes you not a buddhist" - very nice (!) ... :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: It made a very big deal out of Nothing.
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: gigles to Cal ;)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am not sure if i would suggest anyone to read that without aspirin
    Calvino Rabeni: hehehe
    Calvino Rabeni: Or scotch whiskey
    Calvino Rabeni: I good dose of common sense
    Liza Deischer: oh no, then you need to read it twice, seeing everything double
    Calvino Rabeni: I thought you'd get twice as much out of it on one reading ....
    Liza Deischer: that certainly is a way to look at it
    Calvino Rabeni: But. To really understand it - it might help to find out exactly what Heidegger was doing (or smoking) when he wrote it - and then recreate those conditions
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, I think I will go to buy from nearby shop some materials to pitza. letting my-self be here with You guys, be right back ;)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: At least Heidegger loved to hang out with the villagers in the Schwarzwald.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: So, he prefered a more purisic life when i remember correctly
    Bolonath Crystal: oh
    Yakuzza Lethecus: His cabin is also an often mention anecdote
    Bolonath Crystal: i can see the schwarzwald from here
    Bolonath Crystal: good opportunity the recreate conditions :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Was there a historical Hansel and Gretel? And where was that infamous cabin located?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Bolonath Crystal: as far as i know they are not historical, but i didn't go very far inta that matter yet
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i wonder if heidegger essay´s like building,dwelling,thinking even hit the contemplative subject of play as being
    Bolonath Crystal: those cabins you can find in every village in the meantime
    Bolonath Crystal: they are called "aldi"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, also I was curious about the tradition of the witch house in biergarten places
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am not familiar with the website but i googled a link to that essay i mentionen:
    Yakuzza Lethecus: http://evans-experientialism.freeweb...eidegger7a.htm
    Liza Deischer: it looks interesting Being and Time
    Liza Deischer: but probably very conceptual
    Liza Deischer: Bert, I meant to ask you before, but what is so ugly about the 9
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bert can you press ctrl alt r
    Liza Deischer: I think he is not with us :)
    Liza Deischer: is that rebaking your textures?
    Bertram Jacobus: that she very often occures when a ) should be there and so comes a :-9 instead of a :-) , for example ( or a ;-9 instead of ;-) ... and so on) ... ;-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, that rebakes them in emerald
    Yakuzza Lethecus: he´s a cloud to me
    Yakuzza Lethecus: thx
    Yakuzza Lethecus: nice outfit
    Liza Deischer: ah, hi Bert
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i love ur clock
    Bertram Jacobus: ctrl+alt+r doesn´t change anything, sry plz
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ur not a cloud to me anymore
    Liza Deischer: ah okay
    Bertram Jacobus: hy liza ? i said hi as you came in (?) ;-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it doesn´t change anything for you :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but i see you now!
    Bolonath Crystal: me 2
    Liza Deischer: I know, just saying hi to the visible Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow - lucky you ? ;-)
    Bolonath Crystal: the cloud was better *g*
    Bertram Jacobus: i see now liza, okay ... sry ... ty ... :o)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ur shoe´s don´t fit to ur outfit
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Bolonath Crystal: i have to go back to work
    Bolonath Crystal: thx for the conversation :) om shanti
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: back
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Liza Deischer: bye Bolo :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care bolo
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, Bolo is going, okey, just in time to say Bye
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni wonders about Cosmic's pizza ...
    Bertram Jacobus: for the log : bye bolonath ! ...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: pizza ?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes, today is a pizza day ;)
    Liza Deischer: hmmmmm
    Calvino Rabeni: In finland, I think people can just use the sauna to cook the pizza
    Calvino Rabeni: No oven needed
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: was wondering if take kids to pizeria, but decided to prepare it at home ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh loool Cal
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Bertram Jacobus: i´ll leave - thanks for the talk ! :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: are you making everything urself then ?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not all
    Calvino Rabeni: Looking sharp, Bert :)
    Liza Deischer: I'm afraid that makes the pizza, eh, not crusty enough :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or actually both of us are making food
    Calvino Rabeni: take care, be well :)
    Liza Deischer: byeBert :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Bye Bert
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye bert
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3<3
    Bertram Jacobus: ty all again :-)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: veru much doing by our-self
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: food
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so you buy the dough or you make the dough on ur own ?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, making by my-self the dough
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: for pitza and as well on pies
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: self made is more tasty
    Yakuzza Lethecus: oh, cosic you just reached the final step of meditation
    Yakuzza Lethecus: why did you stand up :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh, I noticed, yes ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, feeling now to be grounded ;)))
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, i am logging out for a while
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bfn
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: nice to see You Yaku
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: have fun
    Liza Deischer: bye Yaku :)
    Liza Deischer: we're closing in on you Cal :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;) Cal have good to be
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: in the middle ;) gigles ;)))
    Calvino Rabeni: Can't we move these pillows a little closer together ? :)
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sounds good
    Calvino Rabeni: *g*
    Liza Deischer: no I'm afraid not
    Calvino Rabeni: It would take a bribe to Storm
    Liza Deischer: we are not the owner
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: bribe?
    Liza Deischer: ah, wait a minute
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, to give money to get a favor = "bribe"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, okey
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: corruption might have some "bribe" ;)
    Liza Deischer: is this close enough :))
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni
    Calvino Rabeni: 's pixels heat up a little
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh ;))
    Calvino Rabeni: Feels different
    Calvino Rabeni: cozy :)
    Liza Deischer: there are more animations in it Cosmic
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: this is good
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
    Liza Deischer: okay
    Liza Deischer: well Cal, two blonds
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Are You Liza blond in rl too?
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm a blonde too
    Calvino Rabeni: (not really, but in SL you can be anything)
    Liza Deischer: no went from white, to blonde to brown
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;) I am more brunette in rl
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: changing colour here is refreshing
    Liza Deischer: ah, the other day I had pruple hair
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: rl hair gets damaged easily if taking colours or curlies there
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
    Liza Deischer: yes :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Do You Liza have blue or brown eyes?
    Liza Deischer: grey-blue, with some green
    Liza Deischer: but then you have to look really close
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Liza Deischer: further away they seem to be brown
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have dark green
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: mixed with brown
    Liza Deischer: ah beautifu
    Liza Deischer: l
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: mom have light green
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and dad have chocolate brown
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Liza Deischer: I like green in eyes
    Calvino Rabeni: Now wouldn't that be interesting - to see a closeup of the eye, of people who have avatars here ...
    Liza Deischer: so you got a mix :)
    Calvino Rabeni: You could see the green in my irises
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Liza Deischer: all green
    Calvino Rabeni: Just a little, for accents
    Liza Deischer: Fox has a picture on google e-mail where she shows her eye
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Eyes are amazing
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but perhaps first I do look at persons hands
    Calvino Rabeni: Especially "live"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: when seeing
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and then eyes
    Liza Deischer: hands are important to me too
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and in men I take arms to be very fashinating
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if having t-shirt
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not needed to be muscular
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but hmm, shape of arms
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: more like with art
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hands and arms
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and eyes
    Liza Deischer: as the hands don't need to be beautiful
    Liza Deischer: to me it is more the use, the posture, the abilities it shows
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
    Liza Deischer: the gestures
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: what do You look at Cal, when seeing persons?
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe good circulation or energy flow in hands
    Calvino Rabeni: and eyes
    Calvino Rabeni: This is getting physical :)) hmmm - I am not one of the people who claims to see auras, but I think I saw one recently
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: me too, not always
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but sometimes can see
    Calvino Rabeni: Or only, that a certain man appeared to me to have a brightness about him that was unusual, a kind of white
    Calvino Rabeni: and I was going to ask - what have you been doing?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
    Calvino Rabeni: But, I didn't know if he thinks it superstitious
    Calvino Rabeni: I didn't ask
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Liza Deischer: never saw an aura
    Calvino Rabeni: But a little later he told me, he had a new practice with "chakras"
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: just a sec, need to clean up simo
    Liza Deischer: I try to 'feel' people
    Calvino Rabeni: that he had been doing a lot lately
    Liza Deischer: that seems to give me the most information
    Liza Deischer: ah :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Whatever, it seemed to make him feel and look better
    Liza Deischer: or I don't try, it just happens
    Liza Deischer: right
    Liza Deischer: brb
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: back
    Calvino Rabeni: so am I
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3<3<3
    Yakuzza Lethecus: what does that mean btw ?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Yaku ;)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: what?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: <3<3y3
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hearts
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ah :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: on their side
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am persuing my bad habit to eat in front of the pc :)
    Liza Deischer: hey Yaku
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: heh ;) hmm
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby its not a bad habit? or??
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: is it
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sometimes I do that also
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but not under the eye of kids ;))
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hmm, i think my keyboard is of that opinion :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it wont work if all are eating around the house
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there would be huge mess
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but the key´s are very clean when you clip them out and put them into the dishwasher
    Yakuzza Lethecus: don´t forget to keep a picture of the keylayout somewhere
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, yes, but there would be food all around ;) lol
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: kaylayout?
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: key
    Liza Deischer: otherwise you don't know where to put the keys
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean i type 10 fingers still i can´t tell you where which key belongs to when i clipped them out :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes liza :)
    Liza Deischer: neither can I, also using 10 fingers
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: me too
    Liza Deischer: though I guess 1 to 0 will be okay :)
    Liza Deischer: I can figure that one out :)
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: fingers knows where are those key`s
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but if starting to write with one or two fingers, then I have to search them
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and look at keys
    Liza Deischer: right
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: memory is amazing thing
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, I think I need to go now
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to make food
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
    Liza Deischer: okay
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: see You soon Dear Friends
    Liza Deischer: going too
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3<3<3
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and hugs to all
    Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Bye for now
    Liza Deischer: bye Cosmic :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
    Calvino Rabeni: <3333 Cosmic :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i tp to another place
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care
    Liza Deischer: oay
    Liza Deischer: ok
    Liza Deischer: see you Uaku :))

    Healthy suffering

    Calvino Rabeni: What do you call a human being who is really healthy emotionally and in many other ways
    Calvino Rabeni: ?
    Liza Deischer: a human being
    Liza Deischer: I think being human means you can grow to really become one
    Liza Deischer: leaving behind the dependence on the material world
    Liza Deischer: which can make us acts like animals, but worse, because there often is anger of hatred involved
    Calvino Rabeni: We don't have a good vocabulary for healthy positive qualities and states
    Liza Deischer: no
    Liza Deischer: I sended you an IM
    Liza Deischer: sent
    Calvino Rabeni: There's a big gap in the maps of human nature
    Calvino Rabeni: a lot of focus on suffering and pathology
    Calvino Rabeni: which probably does deserve a lot of attention
    Liza Deischer: well, depends
    Calvino Rabeni: and then a "leap" to some kind of spirituality
    Liza Deischer: there are maps
    Liza Deischer: but not in christianity
    Calvino Rabeni: but in between - the upper registers of healthy happy humans - not much map for that
    Liza Deischer: there are like the kabbala
    Liza Deischer: I think Blavatsky described it as well
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, some maps have been made - but then it starts to seem like a ladder to climb
    Liza Deischer: not necessarily
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe not, but it tempts people
    Liza Deischer: the kabala shows different 'roads'
    Liza Deischer: yes, any map will
    Liza Deischer: any map can be read the right and the wrong way
    Calvino Rabeni: But there is a new growth industry of professional helpers for that zone of humanity
    Calvino Rabeni: life coaches and facilitators, for instance
    Liza Deischer: yes, I know
    Liza Deischer: wanted to get in time to go with the flow
    Liza Deischer: or actually being ahead of it
    Calvino Rabeni: they disavow being responsible for solving problems at least, the ones that psychotherapists specialize in
    Calvino Rabeni: they say - if you have (list of issues) then look for a qualified professional
    Calvino Rabeni: And it's hard I think, for them to promote their services
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Liza Deischer: but it depends
    Calvino Rabeni: everyone can understand alleviating suffering; many get into "problem solving" mentality
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: but fewer speak clearly about the full human life
    Liza Deischer: but I think there is a market growing for other approaches
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes it appears to be a growth industry
    Calvino Rabeni: but the models need to be different
    Liza Deischer: you need to understand the basic working of the human, instinctive mind
    Liza Deischer: actually the animal instinctive mind and the way it penetrates the emotional and rational patterns
    Liza Deischer: as a start
    Liza Deischer: without it your clueless
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, as a start .... then what ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Earlier in the session, was a discussion of whether studies like "siddhis" were a "danger" on a spiritual path
    Liza Deischer: can be
    Liza Deischer: without the right context
    Liza Deischer: to buddhist, things siddhis do, are a by-product
    Calvino Rabeni: That seems likely, but just as likely, a blanket pronouncement is lacking context also
    Liza Deischer: so you need to look for it
    Liza Deischer: every person as its 'context' consciously or not
    Liza Deischer: some contexts you can work with as a professional, some not
    Calvino Rabeni: The warning seems to suggest - that if one were simply happy and free of suffering, they wouldn't have enough suffering to drive them to some even more ultimate state
    Calvino Rabeni: As if the suffereing were necessary
    Calvino Rabeni: and you don't want too many well-adjusted humans around
    Liza Deischer: well they could be right
    Calvino Rabeni: Or could be wrong ...
    Liza Deischer: my Tibetan teacher has no clues about guilt
    Liza Deischer: so can't see how that is penetrating the western mind
    Liza Deischer: I have been asking myself the question if I really want to become a boddhisatva
    Calvino Rabeni: What are the considerations of that - is it a decision?
    Liza Deischer: maybe not really understanding anymore what life is about for a lot of human people
    Calvino Rabeni: That doesn't sound like an effective boddhisatva
    Liza Deischer: well, Im not considerig it anymore
    Liza Deischer: I guess I made a choice
    Calvino Rabeni: the effective one lives in the village, isn't that the story?
    Liza Deischer: effective for 'healthy' human beings
    Liza Deischer: not effective for the ones which suffering is bigger then they can bear
    Calvino Rabeni: Healthy means more than just not ill or damaged
    Liza Deischer: in this case I put it between quotes, because I mean here what is considered to be healty
    Liza Deischer: not needing a therapist
    Liza Deischer: or psychiatrists or whatever
    Liza Deischer: people that can 'function'
    Calvino Rabeni: well that definition of healthy is a relative one dependent on averages
    Calvino Rabeni: "function" is relative also
    Liza Deischer: but aren't necessarily healthy in spirit
    Calvino Rabeni: right
    Liza Deischer: I'm talking averages
    Calvino Rabeni: that's common, but earlier, I think the idea was, there are all kinds of levels of "health" or functioning
    Calvino Rabeni: where do you draw the line?
    Liza Deischer: I guess you don't
    Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, I don't see a reasonable way to draw it somewhere
    Liza Deischer: there is always development, even for a Buddha
    Calvino Rabeni: Is that part of the philosophy? That's interesting
    Liza Deischer: I don't know actually :)
    Liza Deischer: but for instance enlightenment is taken to be a state
    Liza Deischer: buddhists describe eight of them
    Calvino Rabeni: Well in any case, there are variations
    Liza Deischer: so, is enlightenment the end of the road?
    Calvino Rabeni: degrees or whatever
    Liza Deischer: not for mahayana buddhists
    Liza Deischer: enlightenment is just the first step
    Calvino Rabeni: terminology
    Liza Deischer: wisdom comes next
    Calvino Rabeni: but what's the principle?
    Liza Deischer: it is in the goa
    Liza Deischer: goal
    Liza Deischer: buddha's stay until every scentient being is enlightened
    Liza Deischer: that means there is always a development on a material level
    Liza Deischer: being placed in different times, places
    Liza Deischer: materialized
    Liza Deischer: as reincarnations
    Liza Deischer: it is never 'done'
    Calvino Rabeni: so what is the story?
    Liza Deischer: which story?
    Calvino Rabeni: does it evolve? If so, does it improve? or does it repeat and cycle, or is there no scale of change at all?
    Liza Deischer: I really don't know
    Liza Deischer: I'm not at the stage to know
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Liza Deischer: but I don't take it for granted that enlightenment is 'it'
    Liza Deischer: I guess I just need to find out :)
    Calvino Rabeni: which version of enlightenment do you mean, or, just the general idea of it?
    Liza Deischer: the general idea of it
    Calvino Rabeni: OK
    Liza Deischer: because I also have no clue about enlightenment either
    Liza Deischer: clues
    Calvino Rabeni: Really ?
    Liza Deischer: do you know what it is?
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps, there are clues everywhere - only the big picture is not in focus
    Liza Deischer: buddhism is about a path
    Liza Deischer: yes you find pieces, true
    Liza Deischer: a path to a certain goal, but that goal isn't enlightenment
    Liza Deischer: not in itself
    Calvino Rabeni: Why assume, that a fact, seen now, and not in its eventual context, will not be important, and actually the same, in a more developed context?
    Calvino Rabeni: OKOK
    Calvino Rabeni: so god does not exist, in the buddhist perspective?
    Liza Deischer: no
    Calvino Rabeni: why not ?
    Liza Deischer: good question
    Liza Deischer: to me it would mean that a part of 'me' is outside me
    Liza Deischer: it doesn't make sense
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems, many people in the buddhist world, like to worship many dieties, and also to worship the idea of buddha, in spite of some requests from that historical figure not to do so
    Liza Deischer: I know
    Liza Deischer: but worshipping can be different things
    Liza Deischer: there is a strong devotional part
    Liza Deischer: but not without asking questions
    Liza Deischer: the devotional part is more like you acknowledge the quality of a 'teacher'
    Liza Deischer: whether it is your own teacher or a diety
    Liza Deischer: but it is not knowledge outside yourself
    Liza Deischer: devotion can make it 'alive'
    Liza Deischer: can give you clues about the qualities
    Liza Deischer: seeing and examining it in yourself
    Liza Deischer: when you place it outside yourself, buddhist or not, it isn't buddhism
    Liza Deischer: as far as I understand :)
    Liza Deischer: it is like placing it outside to have a better look at it
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Liza Deischer: brb, nature calling
    Liza Deischer: the material world :)
    Liza Deischer: making you do things, if you like it or not
    Liza Deischer: it makes you drink, eat, pee, poo, sleep
    Calvino Rabeni: Might as well get to like it
    Calvino Rabeni: There's no where else to go
    Liza Deischer smiles
    Liza Deischer: what I just mean is that matter does matter
    Liza Deischer: but that is another discussion :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Indeed
    Calvino Rabeni: And here's another one that is on my mind
    Calvino Rabeni: .... (considering whether to say -- just joking)
    Liza Deischer: ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Well I'm considering how to frame the question
    Liza Deischer: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, how about, stupidly (as a start) - yeah, that's it !
    Liza Deischer: meaning?
    Calvino Rabeni: So, all this emphasis on "awareness" - in the west at least, it's kind of locked away within indivuduals due to our metaphysics
    Calvino Rabeni: So this - how do we ensure that awareness based studies, don't simply reinforce an imbalanced tendency toward individualism
    Liza Deischer: sadly yes
    Calvino Rabeni: and thus have an unhealthy ethical effect?
    Liza Deischer: I guess in buddhism the sangha is a great tool for that
    Liza Deischer: the people around you, the community
    Calvino Rabeni: And secondly, how to justify or defend such studies, towards the value system of people who see the importance of relationships, cooperation, and community
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, the sangha is critical for that in buddhism
    Calvino Rabeni: but what about in non-buddhism?
    Liza Deischer: I don't know
    Calvino Rabeni: There needs to be something for people who want to know the truths about their experience
    Liza Deischer: my initial idea with the shift is to create a community
    Calvino Rabeni: and aren't interested in picking up an eastern philosophy
    Calvino Rabeni: I understand that, Liza, about the Shift
    Liza Deischer: a place where people who can't find answers can go to, ask questions
    Calvino Rabeni: the question is, how important is buddhism to that project?
    Liza Deischer: but you know, I guess that is one of the reasons i think that a method is important
    Calvino Rabeni: I ask, because, it is a microcosm of the question I asked earlier about western culture as a whole
    Liza Deischer: well in sl, very, in rl also, but the goal will be different
    Calvino Rabeni: Not because I think the shift should be this or that way :)
    Liza Deischer: if I ever come to that
    Liza Deischer: but in sl I can't do what I want to do in rl
    Liza Deischer: so I'm more focussing on meditation
    Liza Deischer: discussions
    Liza Deischer: focussed on what we consider 'healthy' people
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: well for one thing, there are ethical boundaries involved
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Liza Deischer: but in a way trying to provide some sort of method and community
    Calvino Rabeni: Healthy (or beyond) people are presumed to be responsible for their own decisions
    Calvino Rabeni: there is not the presumption of responsibility that occurs with a therapist
    Liza Deischer: yes, still need to monitor it
    Liza Deischer: no
    Liza Deischer: then it gets more complicated
    Calvino Rabeni: yes that's true
    Liza Deischer: andmy method is based on buddhism, but taking out the real buddhist elements
    Liza Deischer: I'm trying to use the elements that are useful for everyone
    Liza Deischer: that is why I want to participate on the psychological level mostly
    Liza Deischer: but I don't have another answer I'm afraid, and I agree with you that there is a risk
    Liza Deischer: people meditation on their own
    Calvino Rabeni: life involves risk
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Liza Deischer: *meditating
    Calvino Rabeni: Well that sounds scary :)
    Calvino Rabeni: So what can we do now not to scare people off?
    Liza Deischer: the only thing I can come up with is offering a community
    Liza Deischer: and offering basic rules
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree that is important
    Calvino Rabeni: community that is
    Liza Deischer: and basic rules in what 'dropping' really means
    Calvino Rabeni: But I would not want to promote the idea that - if you don't follow certain basic rules - it will be dangerous in some way
    Calvino Rabeni: People are pretty well self-regulating in my view
    Calvino Rabeni: Things go wrong mainly if they push themselvs too much, or allow themselves to be pushed
    Liza Deischer: well, there are different ways to do it
    Calvino Rabeni: beyond their knowledge of self-regulation
    Liza Deischer: as you say you can lead the horses to the water
    Liza Deischer: you can't make them drink
    Calvino Rabeni: so it's safe for the horse
    Liza Deischer: but I'm not so sure about self-regulation
    Calvino Rabeni: if they are thirsty they will drink
    Liza Deischer: right
    Calvino Rabeni: if not, at least, they are not going to drown
    Calvino Rabeni: and so the "danger" is they will stay the same
    Liza Deischer: or worse
    Calvino Rabeni: but that's already, the zone of maximum safety according to their current understanding
    Liza Deischer: having refined their ego in ways of delusions
    Liza Deischer: deluding themselves
    Calvino Rabeni: protective gear, that is
    Liza Deischer: that is true
    Liza Deischer: so, I'm not in favour of saying, this is the only way
    Liza Deischer: and I do except people in meditation of which I'm not sure what they are doing
    Liza Deischer: but I can only tell what I know, making suggestions
    Liza Deischer: and I wouldn't like to do it in any different way
    Liza Deischer: if they really pick it up, I don't know
    Liza Deischer: but that is not for me to say or to tell
    Liza Deischer: and you know, you need to give people time, new concepts take up about 2 or 3 years before you start to understand some of it
    Calvino Rabeni: If that is true, what does it imply about communicating those concepts in the first place?
    Liza Deischer: and in the end people do what they think is best for them and that is the only right way
    Liza Deischer: wll, I just hope people stick around or find other places where they can grow
    Liza Deischer: maybe after a few years, starting to rethink things
    Liza Deischer: and I guess that it is important to give numerous perspectives on the 'concept' or method or whatever it is
    Calvino Rabeni: true
    Liza Deischer: what stiks with one, doesn't stick with another
    Liza Deischer: and finally you just...... let it go
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, awareness, or method first - it isn't really an either/or choice
    Liza Deischer: no, I don't think so
    Calvino Rabeni: but I've had teachers who emphasized one over the other
    Calvino Rabeni: or said in another way, they foregrounded it
    Liza Deischer: well, some need one more then the other
    Liza Deischer: or want to pick up one and don't want to get involved in the other
    Calvino Rabeni: those preferences get in the way of effective learning
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: playasbeing is minimalist with respect to method - which is a strength and a weakness
    Liza Deischer: after a nice rain, the sun is shining here again
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: It is the strengths that count most in these matters
    Liza Deischer: maybe :)
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe :)
    Calvino Rabeni: That seems like a good place to stop
    Calvino Rabeni: for me that is, given the late hour
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for the chat Liza :)
    Liza Deischer: yes, that is probably why I let the sun come in :)
    Liza Deischer: thank you too :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye for now, take care

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