2010.08.06 13:00 - philosophy and politics

    Table of contents
    No headers

    The Guardian for this meeting was Yakuzza Lethecus. The comments are by Yakuzza Lethecus.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey, welcome back
    MarkMonet Thor: TY
    MarkMonet Thor: Still too early, it seems.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s realy quiet today
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no you aren´t but there was an event at 6am slt
    Yakuzza Lethecus: then the guardianstession at 7am
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and there is and was an RL reatreat in nova scotia
    MarkMonet Thor: I see
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so a few regular participants aren´t even possible to come, and since so much happens on fridays and it´s still summertime it´s a bit more silent
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so what´s ur main philosophical interest
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but let me first ask you if you read that everything here is logged ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: if you don´t want ur name to appear i can delete ur name out of the logfiles
    MarkMonet Thor: I come from a background in analytic philsophy, and the phisophy of science. If anything, I iam a logical positivist.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: wow, so ur propably part of the categorie i simply like to listen too :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i basicly like to find ppl whom are discussing topics i am interested in SL, but for the learning i use itunesU, books and other sources
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so i am verymuch interested in phenomenologie but also philosophy of science
    Yakuzza Lethecus: still my rl background doesn´t provide anyone who even knows names such as popper,kuhn,feyerabend,lakatosh
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so you even do philosophy more professionally ?
    MarkMonet Thor: I once was going to major in it, but picked political science--international relations instead. But in my writing and research, I still do a lot of philosophy.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi pila
    Pila Mulligan: hi Yak
    MarkMonet Thor: I combine mathematics and social science, and that requires a lot of understanding of math, thus the analytic side
    Pila Mulligan: hi Mark
    MarkMonet Thor: Hello Pika
    MarkMonet Thor: Pila, sorry.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: just stopping by for a moment before attending to some RL matters
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am kinda sad that i never developed a better understanding for mathematics, i think i really suffer from that since there is so much stochastic´s involved in the social sciences
    MarkMonet Thor: Nice to meet you then.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: what´s ur main interest in the field right now ?
    Pila Mulligan: nice top meet you also, Mark -- and I am quite lacking in math skills also Yak
    Pila Mulligan: to meet*
    MarkMonet Thor: In philsophy? Hard to say since I work across the field. Best to say analytic philosophy.
    MarkMonet Thor: Nature of truth--empirical, analytic, math, ethics, art.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, but you can´t share a specific project as an example for that ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean it´s fine
    MarkMonet Thor: I am getting two sets of IMs. A little confusing, and so may miss the chat. If I do, try again.
    Pila Mulligan: well, democide is an interesting new term for me
    Pila Mulligan: as an example of a project, Mark
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s because of the logging around here
    MarkMonet Thor: Ahh, you and many othrs
    MarkMonet Thor: others*
    Yakuzza Lethecus: you didn´t wrote me that you agree with the logging
    Yakuzza Lethecus: or if i need to delete ur name
    Pila Mulligan: did you see Mark's profiule yet Yak?
    MarkMonet Thor: So far no problem
    Pila Mulligan: " a park in remembrance of all those murdered by governments in genocide, democide, or mass murder in the last century, 262,000,000 of them in total."
    Pila Mulligan: and wiki has an article on the subject too
    MarkMonet Thor: Smiles. That isfamiliar. Please visit
    Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide
    Pila Mulligan: wiki: "Democide can also include deaths arising from "intentionally or knowingly reckless and depraved disregard for life"; this brings into account many deaths arising through various neglects and abuses, such as forced mass starvation."
    Pila Mulligan: or the War on Drugs in the US
    MarkMonet Thor: Yes.
    Pila Mulligan: the militarization of society in the name of crime prevention
    Pila Mulligan: not an encouraging phase of civilization
    MarkMonet Thor: If it leads to deaths.
    Pila Mulligan: the intentionally or knowingly reckless part has
    Pila Mulligan: swat raids etc
    MarkMonet Thor: All that bears investigation, wether deaths are due to intentional or unenintentional deaths. As with murder in law.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, they should be investigated -- and investigated objectively by parties unrelated to the perpetrators
    Pila Mulligan: not by their uspervisors
    MarkMonet Thor: Yes. As in a court of law, by the INternational Criminal Court.
    Pila Mulligan: my opinion is that about 10% of the people involved are seriusly psycho
    Pila Mulligan: they make trouble,m the others cover it up
    Pila Mulligan: ready fire aim people
    MarkMonet Thor: As with genocide
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: and then the long term entrenches it
    Pila Mulligan: as with indigenous people
    Pila Mulligan: in the US and elsewhere
    Pila Mulligan: Leonard Peltier for example
    Pila Mulligan: more than 30 years in prison for a crime he did not commit
    MarkMonet Thor: Tell me more, please
    Pila Mulligan: because the was an Indian leader in the 60's he was prosecuted as a scapegoat for the murder of 2 FBI agents on an Indian reservation
    Pila Mulligan: murder may be a harsh term, they were kille din a gunfight they helkped start
    MarkMonet Thor: Yes, I know that case
    MarkMonet Thor: I have not done research on it, just read about it.
    Pila Mulligan: but because he is an Indian he is at a serious disdvantage
    MarkMonet Thor: So you believe he was innocent?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: evidence was falsified
    MarkMonet Thor: By the FBI?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: faked evidence ?
    Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Peltier
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: not falsified ?
    Pila Mulligan: both
    Pila Mulligan: fals testimony (perjury)
    Pila Mulligan: and faked hard evidence
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, we just had phil of science before that term was differently on my mind :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: nvm, proceed :)
    Pila Mulligan: "Testimony from three witnesses placed Peltier, Robideau and Butler near the crime scene. Those three witnesses later recanted, alleging that the FBI, while extracting their testimony, had tied them to chairs, denied them their right to talk to their attorney, and otherwise coerced and threatened them"
    Pila Mulligan: "The jury, unlike the juries in similar prosecutions against AIM leaders at the time, were not allowed to hear about other cases, in which the FBI had been rebuked for tampering with evidence and witnesses"
    Pila Mulligan: these are from wiki
    Yakuzza Lethecus: welcome adoro
    adoro Rhapsody: hi
    Pila Mulligan: "after an FOIA request, the FBI ballistics expert’s records were examined. His report stated that he had performed a ballistics test of the firing pin and concluded that the cartridge case from the scene of the crime did not come from the rifle tied to Peltier. That evidence was withheld from the jury during the tria"
    Pila Mulligan: hi adoro
    Pila Mulligan: "Parole Commission has since stated that it "recognizes that the prosecution has conceded the lack of any direct evidence that [Peltier] personally participated in the executions of the two FBI agents.""
    Pila Mulligan: the European Parliament is among the international bodies that consider him a political prisoner
    MarkMonet Thor: A good philosophical problem. Who to believe when evidence comes from two sides? Those who supported the one side are ideologically ssupportive of the Indian movement.
    Pila Mulligan: not exclusively ... there have also been independent reviews
    MarkMonet Thor: And the FBI is not always credible, and has lied in some cases.
    Pila Mulligan: an appellate judge hearing the case later said he felt the evidence was insufficient
    Pila Mulligan: but the panel of judges he was on upheld the convidstion anyway
    MarkMonet Thor: So, I ask as a general problem, how to determine the truth here.
    Pila Mulligan: it may be impossible
    Pila Mulligan: leave it to their karma is the only hope in some cases
    adoro Rhapsody: it may be not nececary
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    adoro Rhapsody: its their world
    adoro Rhapsody: not ours
    MarkMonet Thor: Hello odoro
    adoro Rhapsody: hello
    Pila Mulligan: however, there are also nelightened people -- eg Gandhi, MArtin Luthe rKing -- whos elives try to bring some turth to their world
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    Pila Mulligan: so their are efforts made, but they are not common
    MarkMonet Thor: We can talk about this abstracty, and then have a beer.
    Pila Mulligan: es
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    adoro Rhapsody: or a water
    Yakuzza Lethecus: I have a beer :)
    Pila Mulligan: or tea
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    MarkMonet Thor: But a man's life is at stake, and that makes it profoundly important.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Veltins :P
    Pila Mulligan: and we can talk about it abstractly in the hope that eventually the 100th monkey will ear it
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it is important
    Pila Mulligan: hear*
    Pila Mulligan: vhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth_monkey_effect
    Pila Mulligan: The hundredth monkey effect is a supposed phenomenon in which a learned behavior spreads instantaneously from one group of monkeys to all related monkeys once a critical number is reached.
    MarkMonet Thor: Then, still, as philosophers, what can we say about the truth.
    Pila Mulligan: so maybe there is a criticla mass of people that need to hear about Peltier
    Pila Mulligan: and then he will get justice
    adoro Rhapsody: truth is subjective
    Pila Mulligan: late, but maybe not, he is quite old now
    Pila Mulligan: but is reality subjective too?
    adoro Rhapsody: of course
    Pila Mulligan: perhaps
    MarkMonet Thor: If subjective, should we put it to a vote?
    adoro Rhapsody: all people have ther own truth
    Pila Mulligan: we share the sun and moon though
    Pila Mulligan: no matter how we perceive htem
    adoro Rhapsody: thts right
    adoro Rhapsody: but here is evening and there is morning
    Pila Mulligan: yep, and os subjectivity is localized to some degree
    Pila Mulligan: but form a distance certain realities seem consistent
    MarkMonet Thor: If everyone has a subjective truth, and voting only then determines by numbers what subjectivity wins, There can be no truth
    MarkMonet Thor: Yes?
    Pila Mulligan: truth is distinguishable from reality in this onctext
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: thats the problem of wikipedia
    Pila Mulligan: we can adjust rhetoric to prove truth -- nothing makes the moon have trees
    Pila Mulligan: yet :)
    MarkMonet Thor: Who is the "we" that will do the adjustment
    Pila Mulligan: all of us
    MarkMonet Thor: ?
    Pila Mulligan: we all do it all the time
    Pila Mulligan: we mangle words to express our truth
    adoro Rhapsody: all 100 monkeys ?
    Pila Mulligan: all 10,000 monkeys
    Pila Mulligan: every philosophy has some form of reality at its foundation -- even nihlism
    Pila Mulligan: i*
    Pila Mulligan: and since philosophy is mind play, it is safe to assume there is in fact some form of reality
    MarkMonet Thor: And that which out minds create.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, elaboration
    Pila Mulligan: decoration too
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    MarkMonet Thor: I am looking at the thing in the middle of the pond. I see a hawk.
    MarkMonet Thor: So you see it?
    Pila Mulligan: nope
    MarkMonet Thor: You are missing it. It is a hawk
    Pila Mulligan: cool
    MarkMonet Thor: For osure
    Pila Mulligan: I hope it is happy
    MarkMonet Thor: Sure*
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: any mice?
    MarkMonet Thor: Come on now. Be reasonble. there is a hawk
    Pila Mulligan: well, I was considering it may need somhting to eat
    MarkMonet Thor: Yes, it will fly soon. Now just looking around.
    MarkMonet Thor: Yes?
    Pila Mulligan: ever sat in on a trial and listened to the testimony from witnesses to, say, a car accident, for exmple
    Pila Mulligan: it is like the story of the blind people and the elphant
    Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_m...nd_an_elephant
    MarkMonet Thor: Yes. Got your point, but we are not winesses. We have the hawk before us.
    Pila Mulligan: you have the hawk before you, Mark
    Pila Mulligan: I do not see it
    MarkMonet Thor: I sure do.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i see a kraken comming out of the middle of the water
    MarkMonet Thor: You are not looking very carefully. It is there. Look
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it has a strange color, still could be a kraken
    MarkMonet Thor: I have to go. My pleasure to meet you Cypris and hope there will be more people next time. Sheers
    Yakuzza Lethecus: that´s a group
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but a really good one :)
    MarkMonet Thor: Cheers*
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, there are usually more
    Yakuzza Lethecus: to get an impression i suggest to come for theme sessions
    MarkMonet Thor: Enjoy and have fun now.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the open sessions are often just a chitchat
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but it can also happen that something great happens in them too
    MarkMonet Thor: I don't mind chit chat. That really is what we had today, and I enjoyed it.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: still have you been to thothica/philosoophy island/thephilosophyclass/roadside philosophers/plato´s academy ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: wb pila
    MarkMonet Thor: Now will take the hawm and go. Bye
    Pila Mulligan: sorry, I crashed
    Pila Mulligan: thanks Yak
    Yakuzza Lethecus: our friend just took his hawk
    Pila Mulligan: I saw :)
    Pila Mulligan: sorry to have missed the ending
    Yakuzza Lethecus: not much going on tonight
    Pila Mulligan: yes, quiet
    Yakuzza Lethecus: propably because the NS retreat just ended
    Pila Mulligan: maybe
    Pila Mulligan: Stutgart next :)
    Pila Mulligan: sp?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: sp ?
    Pila Mulligan: spelling ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: nova scotia
    Pila Mulligan: not sure how to spell the name of the city
    Pila Mulligan: he one in October
    Yakuzza Lethecus: close to halifac
    Yakuzza Lethecus: stuttgart
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes that was kinda korrect
    Pila Mulligan: ah, I was close then
    Yakuzza Lethecus: actually it´s closer to heidelberg :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i think i will go there
    Pila Mulligan: frm everything I've heard meeting SL freinds n RL is quite easy -- familiar
    Pila Mulligan: already familiar that is :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, malta was really great
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, i am going to log out, take care pila
    Pila Mulligan: nice to see you Yak -- bye

    Tag page (Edit tags)
    • No tags
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core