2010.08.11 01:00 - Many ways to freedom from identification

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bolonath Crystal. The comments are by Bolonath Crystal.

    Bolonath Crystal: namaste pema :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Bolonath!
    Bolonath Crystal: how are you?
    Pema Pera: fine! Just adjusting to the new time zone, after returning to Japan again yesterday
    Pema Pera: which means that I can come to the 1 am sessions once more :)
    Bolonath Crystal: :)
    Bolonath Crystal: i love jet lag *g*
    Pema Pera: oh, I do too, really!
    Pema Pera: it's an interesting experiments in states of consciousness
    Pema Pera: a bit akin to dreaming
    Bolonath Crystal: lol, yes
    Bolonath Crystal: i never looked at it that way
    Pema Pera: it depends also a great deal on how tight your schedule is
    Pema Pera: if you have a business meeting right away the next day, it may not be so much fun . . .
    Bolonath Crystal: right
    Pema Pera: even so, perhaps your intuition in making decisions would work differently, for better or worse?
    Bolonath Crystal: maybe better. too much thinking isn't good for intuition
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Bolonath Crystal: when i came to thailand i didn't really sleep the first three nights
    Pema Pera: only siestas during the day?
    Bolonath Crystal: not even this...
    Pema Pera: wow, that must have been hard!
    Bolonath Crystal: i was walking around, sitting in nighttrains...
    Pema Pera: sat, chit, but not much ananda?
    Bolonath Crystal: then, on the fourth day, i arrved in my guesthouse very early in the morning, wked up everybody and went to sleep :D
    Bolonath Crystal: oh, it was quite a lot ananda :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: I'm still feeling ananda/joy from last week's retreat in Nova Scotia :)
    Bolonath Crystal: :)
    Bolonath Crystal: harmonizing energies can lift up each other quite a bit :)
    Pema Pera: one of the nice surprises was to see how much overlap there was between the PaB approach/community and that of the forester and his apprentices
    Pema Pera: on many counts, such as an emphasis on offering and gratitude, on being aimless to some extent rather than goal driven, on letting oneself by seen, etc.
    Bolonath Crystal: very "yogic" :)
    Pema Pera: indeed!
    Bolonath Crystal: when i started to explore religions, i had in my mind that truth should be best found in the overlap of all religions
    Bolonath Crystal: gratitude, aimlessness and so on are some of these overlaps
    Pema Pera: yes, indeed!
    Pema Pera: all forms of openness, in one way or another
    Pema Pera: (I like "openness" better than "emptiness" as a term)
    Bolonath Crystal: ah yes, emptiness is an awful translation of shunyata
    Bolonath Crystal: it reminds of "nothing"
    Qt Core: Hi all
    Pema Pera: (if the pond gets misty, that indicates the 90 sec pause)
    Pema Pera: (also mentioned in green letters in the "local chat" window)
    Pema Pera: Hi Qt!
    Bolonath Crystal: oops, sorry. my awareness is not the best today
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste qt
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: while talking with the forester, we concluded that extremes meet, also in this case: the forester's sustainable ecology focusing on the myriad details of the concrete biology of the forest, and PaB talking about Being and how to express what IS in daily life . . . .
    Pema Pera: and in both cases letting oneself be seen emerged as a key approach
    Pema Pera: for him when walking amidst the animals and plants of the forest, for us the "Being seeing" part of PaB
    Pema Pera: releasing the constriction of the self/ego
    Bolonath Crystal: it is amazing how opposite paths meet in the end if followed consequently
    Pema Pera: yes, that last part is key!
    Bolonath Crystal: yes
    Bolonath Crystal: i call it self-identification
    Bolonath Crystal: many people see ego as as enemy. but it is good to have one, only one shouldn't identify with it
    Pema Pera: ah yes, I fully agree
    Bolonath Crystal: "have" one
    Bolonath Crystal: nor "be" one
    Bolonath Crystal: not*
    Pema Pera: "freedom from identification" is very important, not getting rid of or denying/ignoring identification
    Pema Pera: wearing it casually
    Bolonath Crystal: yes, denying is in my eyes the completely wrong approach
    Pema Pera: yet avoiding is central to most forms of spiritual pursuits
    Pema Pera: in the sense of renunciation
    Pema Pera: and while not wrong, it is not the most efficient approach
    Pema Pera: Hi Steve!
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste steve :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: greetings
    Pema Pera: You're either up very late or very early -- or you're not home!
    Qt Core: hi steve
    Bolonath Crystal: well, avoiding and denying are two different things
    stevenaia Michinaga: up early, too early
    Pema Pera: wow, long day ahead?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I take naps, night be the heat here
    Pema Pera: ah yes, makes sense!
    stevenaia Michinaga: you back in Japan
    Pema Pera: yup, since yesterday
    stevenaia Michinaga: is there a topic?
    Bolonath Crystal: we talked about letting go of ego
    Bolonath Crystal: and different ways to that
    Pema Pera: (I just IMed the last several sentences to Steve)
    Bolonath Crystal: thx
    Pema Pera: renunciation is an interesting move -- can be very inspiring, can also be too restrictive
    stevenaia Michinaga: thx Pema
    Bolonath Crystal: inside and outside are not seperated. so we can go inner or outer paths. if one takes the inner path renunciation of outer things is helpful
    Pema Pera: and there are many layers/ways: one can renounce a particular kind of action, like drinking alcohol, say; or one can try to renounce craving for it, or habitual drinking, or something along those lines
    Pema Pera: like identification, renunciation can be worn in different ways
    Bolonath Crystal: those ways have all one in common: they are about renouncing certain states of conciousness
    Bolonath Crystal: drinking, craving for wordly desires, whatever "sins" there are, all makes it more difficult to let go of ego
    Pema Pera: perhaps . . . it may depend on one's path
    Bolonath Crystal: different cultures have different tendencies, so they need different religions to reach the same goal
    Pema Pera: the craving, yes, that is not helpful, but the actions themselves can be done in non-craving ways, in principle at least
    Bolonath Crystal nods
    Bolonath Crystal: that may be the point where an institutionalized religion is not longer this important to that person
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: one area of renunciation I'm exploring recently is letting go of a belief/habit of linear time, past-present-future time . . . .
    Pema Pera: to see what can take its place once you drop all that
    Bolonath Crystal: that's a tricky thing, time
    Pema Pera: sure is!
    Bolonath Crystal: the past is made of present thoughts that are projected backwards in time
    Pema Pera: yes, and the present of true presence is very unlike the tiny present that we consider to be sandwiched between gigantic past and future
    Bolonath Crystal: to me it is more like presence is emanating future and past
    Bolonath Crystal: everything exists only in presence. even the past and the future
    Pema Pera: and "existence" is a tricky term here -- since we habitually consider existence to be created . . .
    Bolonath Crystal: existence = samsara (in this case)
    Bolonath Crystal: projections
    Pema Pera: a presence-centered view may deal better with "appearing" or "arising" than "creating" given that the latter implies temporal continuity if not solidity
    Bolonath Crystal: i have a big problem with time. i find it very hard to let go of the thought that cause always happens before effect
    Pema Pera: btw, we've been exploring these themes quite deeply during the Friday 6 am sessions, for a number of weeks now; see http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/Time_Sessions
    Pema Pera: and yes, causality is hard to renounce :-)
    Pema Pera: or even to know in what direction to look
    Pema Pera: quite an exercise in openness, or letting go, or letting oneself be seen . . .
    Bolonath Crystal: i like riddles :)
    Pema Pera: this may be a riddle where solving is impossible :-)
    Bolonath Crystal: hehe, even better
    Bolonath Crystal: riddles help us to question our understandings
    Bolonath Crystal: if it is solved, it won't work anymore
    Pema Pera: :>)
    Pema Pera: will have to leave, dinner coming up soon
    Pema Pera: thanks for a great discussion, Bolo!
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Pema, enjoy
    Bolonath Crystal: om shanti, pema. have a good day
    Pema Pera: and good seeing you all, hope you get some rest later, Steve!
    stevenaia Michinaga: thx
    Pema Pera: bye Qt!
    Qt Core: bye
    stevenaia Michinaga: interesting conversation, been reading and trying to relate to it, ego rennciation of time, samsera
    stevenaia Michinaga: and linear time
    stevenaia Michinaga: as a riddle
    Bolonath Crystal: time is something we use to take as given without thinking too much about it
    Bolonath Crystal: but it is a mystery
    stevenaia Michinaga: a lovely weaving of threads
    stevenaia Michinaga: it's one things to "see time" as this construct of past present and Futre , giving them weight as pema put it, then then to "drop that"
    stevenaia Michinaga: Hello beka
    stevenaia Michinaga: Becka
    Bolonath Crystal: hello becka :)
    Becka Finesmith: Hello everyone
    Becka Finesmith: Sory - still downloading
    Qt Core: hi becka
    stevenaia Michinaga: I suppose some of the best questions re the ones where you have no clue what the answer is
    Becka Finesmith: Hi QT.
    Bolonath Crystal agrees :)
    Becka Finesmith: Can I ask, I received an email about he dream circle this morning but it was dated the 1st August. I'd like to si in on one. Could oyou tell me when the next oe is?
    Becka Finesmith: please excuse my typing. My machine seems tobe running slowly
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I saw that, I know thre is a section in the Wiki where there may be more information
    stevenaia Michinaga: let me look
    Becka Finesmith: I did look but there are n dates I don't thik
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Dream_Circle
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps IM'g Gaya
    Qt Core: it is today, 7am
    Becka Finesmith: OK. I'll do that.
    Qt Core: just got a notice
    Becka Finesmith: Oh. OK. Great.
    Bolonath Crystal: sorry, my friends, rl is calling
    Becka Finesmith: Mine said August 1st
    stevenaia Michinaga: it is the 11th, perhaps a slip of the keyboard
    Qt Core: bye Bolonath
    Bolonath Crystal: om shanti, have a nice day
    Becka Finesmith: Bye Bolonath
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Bol
    Qt Core: 1st meeting, second (and last) on the 25th
    Qt Core: last for august
    Becka Finesmith: I think I have to leave to. Just wante to check Dream circle times
    Becka Finesmith: Thanks Qt for the info.
    Qt Core: yw
    stevenaia Michinaga: I haven't attended any of those sesson
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Becka
    Becka Finesmith: They sound interesting
    Becka Finesmith: Bye everyone...
    stevenaia Michinaga: I beleve there is another dream session on Tuesdaqys at 1:00
    stevenaia Michinaga: PM
    Qt Core: don't know, the GAya's notice mentioned only today and the 25th, both at 7am
    Qt Core: time to go
    Qt Core: Bye steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, time for beakfast
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Qt
    Qt Core: (making lunch for me)
    Qt Core: Ciao!

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