2010.08.17 13:00 - Thinking in stereotypes

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    Bertram Jacobus: hey cal - so much time needed for rezzing ? ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, good evening, Bert
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't know, how much time?
    Bertram Jacobus: the time from you appeared here until you took your seat

    Bertram Jacobus: hey sartre and adoro
    Sartre Placebo: hey guys
    adoro Rhapsody: hi all
    Bertram Jacobus: hello hana
    Hana Furlough: Hi everyone
    Sartre Placebo: no dreams tonight ?
    Sartre Placebo: i was thinking that because nobody arrieved in the kira cafe until that moment...
    Calvino Rabeni: Nobody was at the cafe yet?
    Sartre Placebo: was
    Calvino Rabeni: I had not heard about a cancellation?
    Sartre Placebo: they are just arriving
    adoro Rhapsody: i see u as a cloud sartre
    Bertram Jacobus: me too
    adoro Rhapsody: is that correct ?
    Hana Furlough: me three
    Bertram Jacobus: no ;o)
    Sartre Placebo: is this better ?
    Bertram Jacobus: no, sry
    adoro Rhapsody: not yet
    adoro Rhapsody: u r a white ghost it seems
    Hana Furlough: there are worse things to be
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    adoro Rhapsody: its only the outer side of sartre
    Bertram Jacobus: it??s the normal form here when avatars don??t rezz
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Bertram Jacobus: here = sl
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Sartre Placebo: actually a could is a good metaphor for me anyway
    Sartre Placebo: just around :)
    Bertram Jacobus: not only pab / bieup :-)
    adoro Rhapsody: hi there u are
    Bertram Jacobus: yep. now there is an sartre avatar ! :-)
    adoro Rhapsody: so we can start
    adoro Rhapsody: with ... ?
    Calvino Rabeni: What's taking up our creative attention in RL?
    Calvino Rabeni: That could be interesting to share
    adoro Rhapsody: harvard was first university in shanghai rating
    Bertram Jacobus: creative attention ! interesting combination of words ...
    Calvino Rabeni: yes true
    adoro Rhapsody: of world universities
    Hana Furlough: the impatiens growing in the shade of the church
    adoro Rhapsody: wow
    Calvino Rabeni: Anybody working on interesting projects?
    Bertram Jacobus: here - enlightenment :-)
    Hana Furlough: : )
    Calvino Rabeni: Or reading a book that's thought provoking?
    Calvino Rabeni: Making some changes in some aspect of life?
    adoro Rhapsody: liezi
    adoro Rhapsody: chinese philosoper
    Calvino Rabeni: Trying to figure something out or learn something?
    adoro Rhapsody: why ict never learns
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe carrying a feeling of being puzzled?
    Bertram Jacobus: "why you are not a buddhist" - dzongsar rinpoche
    Hana Furlough: feeling out of step
    adoro Rhapsody: what u mean hanna ?
    Bertram Jacobus: since many month or / and few years nearly all in my life changes constantly
    Hana Furlough: same reason as Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: What reason is that ?
    adoro Rhapsody: me too
    Hana Furlough: life's constant changes
    Calvino Rabeni: Constant change as a thing to relate with?
    Hana Furlough: that upon which one thinks one can rely is in fact unreliable
    Hana Furlough: hence a feeling of being out of step
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah
    adoro Rhapsody: seasons change u can rely on that
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    adoro Rhapsody: every year around
    Bertram Jacobus: and lately i learned again that buddhisms is really - like a source to me, refreshing and rescuing
    Calvino Rabeni: some changes we can anticipate with some accuracy
    Calvino Rabeni: like moving along with them
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    Bertram Jacobus: not only buddhism, but also and very much
    adoro Rhapsody: buy a warm coat for winter
    Calvino Rabeni: hehe
    adoro Rhapsody: in autumn

    Calvino Rabeni: yes, this is summer, winter seems pretty likely on the way
    adoro Rhapsody: for me is Tao what is for u buddhism val
    adoro Rhapsody: cal
    adoro Rhapsody: and hana
    Calvino Rabeni: A song popped into my mind just then - "catch a wave and you're sitting on top of the world"
    Hana Furlough: : )
    Calvino Rabeni: Adoro, what? Maybe say a few more words?
    adoro Rhapsody: TAO gives me inner peace
    adoro Rhapsody: and being here too
    Calvino Rabeni: Tao has thunder - sometimes peace in thunder , dramatic sudden change
    Hana Furlough: but what if you don't want a change?
    Calvino Rabeni: I like Tao because it gives respect to many different qualities of change
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    adoro Rhapsody: and u can letting go change
    adoro Rhapsody: but i like change
    Bertram Jacobus: then you are not in harmony with things hana - sry to say ...
    adoro Rhapsody: chage is nature
    Zen Arado: Hi All
    adoro Rhapsody: hi zen
    Calvino Rabeni: Unless you don't want change of something that isn't changing
    Bertram Jacobus: hi zen :-)
    Sartre Placebo: hey zen
    Hana Furlough: Hi Zen
    Calvino Rabeni: Catch a wave ..
    Hana Furlough: i'd prefer the desert right now
    adoro Rhapsody: oh
    Calvino Rabeni: Like jumping onto a moving train ... takes a little practice
    adoro Rhapsody: i'd prefer an oasis now
    Calvino Rabeni: "Train have VERY STRONG TAO, grasshopper" :)
    Hana Furlough: lol
    adoro Rhapsody: yes thats outer tao
    adoro Rhapsody: i mean inner tao
    adoro Rhapsody: or small tao
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, little many multiple tao
    adoro Rhapsody: the proces of involution
    adoro Rhapsody: in stead of evolution
    adoro Rhapsody: going inside
    adoro Rhapsody: is very jin
    arabella Ella: Hiya!
    Zen Arado: Hi Ara:)
    adoro Rhapsody: but relaxing
    adoro Rhapsody: hi ara
    Hana Furlough: Hi Arabella
    Bertram Jacobus: hi ara
    Bertram Jacobus: hello zon
    Zon Quar: hi all
    Zen Arado: Hi Zon
    adoro Rhapsody: there comes the zon
    arabella Ella: Hiya Zon!
    Hana Furlough: Hello Zon
    adoro Rhapsody: Hey!
    Sartre Placebo: hi zon/ara
    arabella Ella: Hey Sartre!
    Calvino Rabeni: Tao doesn't necessarly lend itself to conversation ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Although there are some fun stories
    arabella Ella: it may if you fill us in a bit Calvino!
    Zen Arado: the flow of conversation?
    Calvino Rabeni: Well a question is, whether there is a "salvation" project involved in Taoism or Buddhism
    Zen Arado: if you can speak about it isn't it :)
    Hana Furlough: : )
    Hana Furlough: jinx, Zen I was just going to say that
    adoro Rhapsody: salvation ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it gets boring for conversation, if the philosophy is saying conversation is pointless to the salvation story
    Zen Arado: sorry :)
    Hana Furlough: in Buddhism, yes, definitely
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: Taoism - maybe?
    arabella Ella: why should there not be a salvation project there then?
    Hana Furlough: but not in the sense of conventional conversion
    Hana Furlough: can you separate buddhism and daoism?
    Zen Arado: didn't think Buddhism evangelized?
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah yes
    adoro Rhapsody: boring is an subjective feeling
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, but sets of ideas can be self-canceling
    Calvino Rabeni: or self-generating
    adoro Rhapsody: ok i heard that before

    Zen Arado: it all adds up to zero
    Hana Furlough: of course it does/did
    adoro Rhapsody: never ending stories
    Zen Arado: likes stories
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe the "story" about never ending stories is a little different in Taoism and Buddhism
    adoro Rhapsody: everlasting discussions
    Calvino Rabeni: that is if it's possible to average those ideas into a stereotype
    arabella Ella: do you think it is Calvino?
    Zen Arado: why do that?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think people think in stereotypes constantly, and by necessity
    Calvino Rabeni: as it's in the nature of thinking
    adoro Rhapsody: interesting
    Zen Arado: are stereotypes useful then?
    Calvino Rabeni: absolutely
    Zen Arado: thought they were a bad thing
    Calvino Rabeni: well, that's a stereotype too :)
    Zen Arado: the word sounds negative
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Zen Arado: :)
    adoro Rhapsody: its your valuing process
    Zen Arado: true
    Calvino Rabeni: So they are "bad" in relationship to the "salvation story" that is unexpressed
    Zen Arado: my stereotyping
    adoro Rhapsody: but its human
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe yes, much more than human too, adoro
    Zon Quar: is salvation story a stereotype ?
    adoro Rhapsody: ok supernatural ?
    arabella Ella: isnt salvation more of an archetype rather than stereotype?
    Zen Arado: 'stereo' suggests twoness
    adoro Rhapsody: or a monotype
    Zen Arado: duality?
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, OK ara, something like that - a general idea
    arabella Ella: a general sort of hope expressed by humanity in its frailty
    Calvino Rabeni: an idea, with some implicit characters and scripts involved
    Zon Quar: thunder here..must quit..bye all
    Zen Arado: bye Zon
    adoro Rhapsody: bye
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Zon - an exciting departure
    Liza Deischer: hi everyone :)
    Hana Furlough: bye, zon, enjoy your thunder
    Zen Arado: Hi Liza
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Liza
    adoro Rhapsody: hi liza
    Bertram Jacobus: hy liza !
    arabella Ella: Bye Zon
    arabella Ella: Hiya Liza!
    Zen Arado: we're thinking in stereotypes
    adoro Rhapsody: like mona lisa
    Hana Furlough: hi liza
    Zen Arado: stereo lisa
    adoro Rhapsody: the mona lisa
    adoro Rhapsody: mono liza
    adoro Rhapsody: but high definition
    Liza Deischer: ??
    adoro Rhapsody: and hi fi sci fi
    Calvino Rabeni: The poet Keats had an idea of "negative capability" by which I think he meant, to be able to think with ambiguity and not-knowing, and maintain openness as an awareness, "surrounding" the forms and stereotypes
    adoro Rhapsody: sorry
    adoro Rhapsody: i let myself go
    Zen Arado: my fault too
    Calvino Rabeni: That's a good skill for meditation
    Zen Arado: sounds good and so long ago
    Zen Arado: when did Keats live?
    Liza Deischer: making some space
    Liza Deischer: around the 'subjects'
    Zen Arado: space around our emotions
    Liza Deischer: some space to be able to get other perspectives
    arabella Ella: 1795 - 1821 Keats
    Calvino Rabeni: Keats was an English Romantic poet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Keats
    adoro Rhapsody: wonderful
    Zen Arado: ty Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Many poets are contemplatives it seems, but I think sometimes they don't know other traditions and evolve their own language
    Calvino Rabeni: Space to get other perspectives
    Liza Deischer: yes, sure
    arabella Ella: Keats died very young but he has some amazing poetry
    Zen Arado: "Peace, peace! he is not dead, he doth not sleep He hath awakened from the dream of life 'Tis we, who lost in stormy visions, keep With phantoms an unprofitable strife,"
    Liza Deischer: like walking around it and get another angle on the same subject
    Zen Arado: from Adonais
    adoro Rhapsody: interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: I wonder if there's a stereotype of poets - why they empower themselves to go so far into "inner" perspectives - whether it takes courage or madness,etc.
    Zen Arado: sounds like he had some realization
    Zen Arado: I suppose they do so much introspection it is like meditation
    Hana Furlough: i suppose it takes both
    Calvino Rabeni: I think poets have many realizations, that would be my stereotype
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it must take both
    arabella Ella: ah but there are so many different types of poets
    arabella Ella: and poetry too
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe even some "class" social support

    Zen Arado: wb Zon
    Zon Quar: ty
    Liza Deischer: wb
    Hana Furlough: w.b. to zon
    arabella Ella: how is the thunder now Zon?
    Zon Quar: stopped for now
    arabella Ella: oh good so all under control hopefully :)
    Zen Arado: my Zen teacher uses a lot of poetry in his dharma talks because it expresses the inexpressible I think
    Zen Arado: expresses deep things
    Hana Furlough: i find that much of japanese poetry is like that
    Hana Furlough: it's so incredible
    Zon Quar: expresses the unexpressible
    Liza Deischer: words used in a different way
    Liza Deischer: more like music
    adoro Rhapsody: sure liza
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, poetry and stories are powerful means of expression
    adoro Rhapsody: music is key to heaven
    adoro Rhapsody: express the unexpressable emotions
    Zon Quar: music transcends thoughts
    Liza Deischer: modern poetry is often brought with a musician
    adoro Rhapsody: its a good combination
    adoro Rhapsody: songs can be poetry too
    Calvino Rabeni: They are basic - "Before there was prose, there was poetry // before there was talking, there was singing // before there was walking, there was dancing"
    Liza Deischer: ah, love dancing :)
    adoro Rhapsody: fundamental !
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Hana Furlough: : ) @ Cal
    Liza Deischer: the concept were there before the expression
    Liza Deischer: hmmm, just words, could use different words
    arabella Ella: well Homeric poetry incorporated history, tradition, poetry, oral communication, etc
    Liza Deischer: maybe more like archetypes, building blocks
    Calvino Rabeni: I like listening to very young humans - infants - their "speech" is singing
    Calvino Rabeni: and as they learn culture, it is channeled into form
    Hana Furlough: or is the concept an afterthought?
    Zon Quar: think so
    adoro Rhapsody: can be both
    Liza Deischer: yes, well Hana, that is why I said, maybe it should be other words :)
    Liza Deischer: hard to put into words, I'm afraid :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't actually seem true that "in the beginning was the word" - I'd say before the word there was the Face, and the Face was singing and breathing
    Hana Furlough: i know what you mean, liza : )
    Zon Quar: perhaps word means sound
    Zon Quar: ommmm
    Calvino Rabeni: yes that makes sense
    Liza Deischer: hmmmm :) Zon
    adoro Rhapsody: mmmm
    Calvino Rabeni: if early people didn't yet have silent words - before writing - then of course, word has sound
    Zen Arado: gesture before words?
    adoro Rhapsody: birds make sounds too
    Calvino Rabeni: Word implies more consciousness around sound, perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: Gesture before words - this makes sense
    Zen Arado: sounds added to gestures
    Liza Deischer: maybe writing has taken away the sound
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: making a separation
    Liza Deischer: sounds in Chinese are more important then in the Western world
    Zen Arado: here anyway :)
    adoro Rhapsody: phonetic langueage
    Calvino Rabeni: And I've heard Japanese has a greater proportion of words that have meaning-carrying sounds
    Calvino Rabeni: compared to English
    Liza Deischer: right Cal
    Zen Arado: yes 'ma' means 4 different things according to tone inflexions
    Calvino Rabeni: do you know anything about that, Hana?
    Zen Arado: in Chinese
    adoro Rhapsody: sinologists here ?
    Hana Furlough: Can you say a little more, Cal?
    Zon Quar: we hear a sound - a sensing - we make a perception .it comes from a bird. we make a concept - a bird --and imitate it and make a word based on the sound ?
    Calvino Rabeni: I suppose, it's phonosemantics - the idea of a sound embodying a meaing directly
    Hana Furlough: Are you talking about onomatopoeia?
    adoro Rhapsody: thats true Zon !
    Calvino Rabeni: and it's been said Japanese has more words that do that type of carrying
    Hana Furlough: there is A LOT of onomatopoeia in Japanese
    Liza Deischer: onomato something ??
    Liza Deischer: what do you mean Hana?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they say - and I think it goes beyond onomatopoeia
    Hana Furlough: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onomatopoeia
    Calvino Rabeni: that means, a word sounds like the thing it refers to
    Calvino Rabeni: like BAM, or WHOOSH
    Liza Deischer: ah, okay
    arabella Ella: like a bee buzzes
    Calvino Rabeni: or CLICK
    arabella Ella: or the wind whooshes
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, that's onomatopoeia as an example

    adoro Rhapsody: thnx for teaching me a new word
    Liza Deischer: so in first instance language or words, brought some awareness with it
    Liza Deischer: we put it down in writing and 'froze' the word in time
    Hana Furlough: or so we thought : )
    arabella Ella: i guess it is likely to have been more complicated than that and that no one really knows as there are different theories too
    Calvino Rabeni: There are different subtle ways sounds carry meaning
    Liza Deischer: true Ara
    Liza Deischer: but it is a pretty massive thought that language once meant something different
    adoro Rhapsody: language is a living thing
    Liza Deischer: :) massive, talking about freezing in time
    adoro Rhapsody: so it changes like nature
    Liza Deischer: yes but does it change with nature nowadays
    adoro Rhapsody: new generations have new meanings
    adoro Rhapsody: and new words
    adoro Rhapsody: and new sounds
    adoro Rhapsody: and new ritms
    Calvino Rabeni: Hana, do you know the Japanese informal term for a "samurai movie" with lots of swordplay?
    Liza Deischer: being able to speak two languages I feel sometimes a word in English is more appropriate then the same word in Dutch and the other way around
    adoro Rhapsody: words can be like swords
    Hana Furlough: no, i'm not much of movie person. would you care to share?
    Calvino Rabeni: My Japanese teacher said it was "Chambara"
    adoro Rhapsody: like overhead = overheid
    arabella Ella: gtg bye everyone!
    Zen Arado: bye Ara
    Zon Quar: bye ara
    adoro Rhapsody: bye
    Liza Deischer: bye Ara
    Bertram Jacobus: bye ara
    Hana Furlough: bye ara~
    adoro Rhapsody: is dutch for govenment
    Hana Furlough: ah!
    Hana Furlough: yes
    Hana Furlough: !
    Calvino Rabeni: but that's my memory, could be wrong
    Hana Furlough: chambara
    Calvino Rabeni: But the word - is meaning carrying
    Calvino Rabeni: and if there was LOTS of action, it become "Cham Cham Bara Bara"
    Calvino Rabeni: it means - cut em up
    Calvino Rabeni: and if lots of action - cut em up in little pieces
    Calvino Rabeni: like a Western "shoot-em-up"
    Liza Deischer: well Adoro that is even a different way of approaching it, but like the joke :)
    adoro Rhapsody: thnx liza
    Zen Arado: what does the word 'sure' mean to Americans?
    Zen Arado: I think it is different to English
    Calvino Rabeni: lots of things, Zen
    Zen Arado: someone told me lately
    Calvino Rabeni: depending on the delivery and inflection
    adoro Rhapsody: oh, i never realised that
    Zen Arado: it only means ok but stronger to me
    Zen Arado: like sure thing
    Zen Arado: meaning certainly
    Hana Furlough: sorry but must get back to work... goodbye and a happy day to all!
    Zen Arado: bye Hana
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye:
    adoro Rhapsody: bye hana
    Calvino Rabeni: sometimes it is used non-commitally
    Zen Arado: ah
    Zen Arado: could be like we say 'Oh right' when we disbelieve speaker
    Liza Deischer: (I seem to scare them away :))
    Bertram Jacobus: for the log : bye hana ... ;-)
    Liza Deischer: *seem
    Liza Deischer: (you're next Adoro :))
    adoro Rhapsody: thats your interpretation
    Agatha Macbeth: Evening all
    Liza Deischer: hi Agatha
    adoro Rhapsody: hi agta
    Zon Quar: agatha
    Bertram Jacobus: bye aggers
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Bert
    Calvino Rabeni: Would you excuse me please - I have a phone call for a while :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Aga
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks everyone - bye for now :)
    Bertram Jacobus: oops - thought you'd leave aggie ;o)
    Liza Deischer: bye Cal :)
    Bertram Jacobus: sry - distracted ...
    Agatha Macbeth: I only just arrived! :p
    Liza Deischer: (skipped one, it was Cal that was next :))
    Bertram Jacobus: "damn" :o)
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    Bertram Jacobus: only saw a walkin aggers ... ;-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Now a sittin aggers
    Agatha Macbeth: Or a kneelin Aggers
    Bertram Jacobus: yess ;-)
    Liza Deischer: with sweet dreams :)
    Agatha Macbeth: (whatever)
    Sartre Placebo: night everyone
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Sart
    Zen Arado: nite Sartre
    adoro Rhapsody: night placebo
    Zon Quar: says goodnight to evryone
    Agatha Macbeth likes his music
    adoro Rhapsody: bye zone
    Bertram Jacobus: nite to everybody who??s leaving ...
    Zen Arado: bye Zon
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Zon
    Liza Deischer: bye Zon
    Liza Deischer: going too
    Liza Deischer: see you all :)
    Zen Arado: me too
    Zen Arado: bye all
    adoro Rhapsody: ok u r next
    adoro Rhapsody: bye
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now
    adoro Rhapsody: bye
    adoro Rhapsody: letting go

    Agatha Macbeth: Never did like orange cushions anyway
    Bertram Jacobus: why not ? :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Take care guys, byeeee
    adoro Rhapsody: bye
    adoro Rhapsody: orange starfish
    adoro Rhapsody: but its brown i think
    Bertram Jacobus: are they bad ? ;-)
    adoro Rhapsody: u sit on one
    Bertram Jacobus: mh okay - nice cushion ;-)
    adoro Rhapsody: just try
    adoro Rhapsody: make some space
    adoro Rhapsody: between the subjects
    Bertram Jacobus: yeah ! space ... nice ...
    adoro Rhapsody: no i prefer the blue ones
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe - playing ... as being ... ? :-)
    adoro Rhapsody: as a human being ?
    Bertram Jacobus: would say that, yes - no ? ;-)
    adoro Rhapsody: how is life in germany ?
    Bertram Jacobus: okay. ty and in holland ? :-)
    adoro Rhapsody: also good
    Bertram Jacobus: nice. why ? ;-)
    adoro Rhapsody: just interest
    Bertram Jacobus: okay ...
    adoro Rhapsody: i see pink dots around u ?
    adoro Rhapsody: from your head
    adoro Rhapsody: and shoulders
    Bertram Jacobus: ah - that are little hearts which occure ...
    adoro Rhapsody: whats that ?
    adoro Rhapsody: wow
    adoro Rhapsody: u r in love or so ?
    Bertram Jacobus: can you see them - their heart form now ? :-)
    adoro Rhapsody: valentines day is past
    adoro Rhapsody: i hve to zoom in
    Bertram Jacobus: no - love for all and everything i guess ...
    adoro Rhapsody: yes i see them
    Bertram Jacobus: i got them as a gift ...
    adoro Rhapsody: i feel about the same emotion
    adoro Rhapsody: thnx
    Bertram Jacobus: here you go ! :-)
    adoro Rhapsody: yesss it works
    Bertram Jacobus: you're welcome ! :-)
    adoro Rhapsody: its a nice present
    adoro Rhapsody: su subtle
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. i agree :-9
    adoro Rhapsody: mmmm
    Bertram Jacobus: really smooth ... :-)#
    adoro Rhapsody: never had that before
    Bertram Jacobus: but my typos are not nice at all - b??h
    adoro Rhapsody: what u mean ?
    adoro Rhapsody: typos ?
    Bertram Jacobus: my wrong typing
    Bertram Jacobus: wrong letters
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: gtg
    adoro Rhapsody: bye
    adoro Rhapsody: cu
    Bertram Jacobus: ok adoro - have a good time ! *wave*

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    Viewing 1 of 1 comments: view all
    really interesting session Calvino and all. Thanks much!
    Posted 16:32, 17 Aug 2010
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