2010.08.21 07:00 – self awareness and animals

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bertram Jacobus. The comments are by Bertram Jacobus.

    Bertram Jacobus: hi bruce ! :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Bert!
    Bertram Jacobus: sry tel
    Bruce Mowbray: a school of four fish, swimming in a circle?
    Bertram Jacobus: sry ? ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: sry? Sorry?
    Bertram Jacobus: i didn´t get that with the fish and the school ... sadly - sry
    Bertram Jacobus: and hy arch ! :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Arch.
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Bert :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Bruce :)
    Bruce Mowbray: There are four fish swimming in a circle over the brown cushion - two cushions to the right of Arch.
    Archmage Atlantis: Oh. I see them......No wonder I couldn't sit there *g*
    Bruce Mowbray: or am I just hallucinating again?
    Bertram Jacobus: oh yes ! now i see ! :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: Faster than I can catch.... they must have been left behind...perhaps?
    Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Koya, Freddie, Frederica.
    Bertram Jacobus: from moon ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Fredrica, sorry.
    Bertram Jacobus: now i got it ! from mick ... ;-)
    Archmage Atlantis: Thank you for greeting the guys, Bruce :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: so blub isn´t alone anymore ! :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: I forgot I had the dragnetts with me when I logged on.
    Archmage Atlantis: No, Koya is always with me, so Blub hasn't always been alone here......at least not at meetings we both attended :)
    Bertram Jacobus: no. but now he has fish mates ! ... :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: I see !
    Archmage Atlantis: Good thing Koya knows better than try for a snack *g*........although in RL/FL my fish, birds and cat all co-exist with no problems :)
    Bertram Jacobus: how nice ! :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: So was there a topic before I got here, or is the topic "companion animals" ?
    Bertram Jacobus: don´t know. but no other topic before.
    Archmage Atlantis: I saw an interesting tv show on BBC America the other day
    Bruce Mowbray: What was it, Arch?
    Bertram Jacobus: i was experiencing some quietness and kinda meditation athmosphere as i was a few minutes alone since 7 am slt here ...
    Bruce Mowbray: What was the TV show about, Arch?
    Archmage Atlantis: It was the Chef Gordon Ramsey's last program of the current season....I don't watch him often, he's a bit crude and rude for me....but this particular show looked interesting, so I set the timer to copy it
    Bertram Jacobus: hello stevenaia ! long time no see ! ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, steve.
    Bruce Mowbray: go on, Arch.
    stevenaia Michinaga: morning all, I see it's an all boys morning...grins
    Archmage Atlantis: He was on a journey, visiting various locations, and this was a part of India that is almost totally vegetarian
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi Steve
    Bruce Mowbray: all boys, and fish.
    Bruce Mowbray: and two dragons and one snowleopard.
    Bruce Mowbray: and one bunny
    Bertram Jacobus: yes :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and one female body ? ;o)
    Archmage Atlantis: He spent 2 days in a ashram, listening to the yogi explain why a vegetarian diet is good, and trying the food
    stevenaia Michinaga: maybe two
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, steve, those are four blue fish. .. (back to the BBC show that Arch is telling us about).
    Bertram Jacobus: why two steve ? only see one (?) :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: listens (steve has two female body parts)
    Archmage Atlantis: I wish I had saved the recording, as the yogi actually made rational sense....not just hocus pocus
    Archmage Atlantis: And the dynamic of this English, high strung English master chef with the cuisine and the yogi was a hoot to watch.
    Bruce Mowbray: Did Ramsey insult the yogi - as he does with the others on his show?
    Bruce Mowbray: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB8dGQ77Zg0
    Archmage Atlantis: No, the yogi spoke to him in such a gentle fashion that Ramsey actually listened
    Bruce Mowbray: great. . . .
    Bruce Mowbray: Did the yogi convince you to go vegan?
    Archmage Atlantis: Although he did insult the idea of living a vegetarian lifestyle and pre-stay the idea of veg could be good food.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Byron.
    Byron Tennyson: Hi guys, may I join you?
    Bertram Jacobus: sure byron !
    Byron Tennyson: Thanks :)
    Bertram Jacobus: take a seat if you like ! :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: I already am mostly vegitarian, but not completely.......the thought process is ongoing :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Ewan.
    Byron Tennyson: Hello :)
    Ewan Bonham: Hi bruce and all!
    Bertram Jacobus: hy ewan
    Archmage Atlantis: I've been trying to tie it in with some research that seems to validate that only humans, chimps and orangutans are self-aware
    Bruce Mowbray: Is this your first time to the Play as Being Pavilion, Byron?
    Byron Tennyson: Umm....let me see :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Still, all animals feel pain
    Byron Tennyson: I guess so, yes
    Byron Tennyson: Bert gave me the intro already
    Bruce Mowbray: Just a sec, Arch. . . while we get the formalities taken care of -- sorry.
    Bruce Mowbray: OK Bert is handling it -- Thanks, Bert. OK, Arch... please continue (sorry)
    Byron Tennyson: Yes, thank you Bert ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe ... kind ... :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: I'm done anyway......and welcome Byron :)
    Byron Tennyson: I always try to be kind
    Bruce Mowbray: This self-awareness in primates. . .
    Byron Tennyson: Thank you Arch
    Bruce Mowbray: A recent TIME magazine spread discusced this in some detail.
    Bruce Mowbray: about how animals construct picture-words to communicate rather complex ideas to humans.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Bertram Jacobus: hey yaku ! :-)
    Byron Tennyson: Hello Yacuzza
    Bruce Mowbray: Good day, Yaku.
    Bertram Jacobus: my impression is, all beings may have at least a little self - awareness , at least that may be to considered - no ? ...
    Archmage Atlantis: I didn't see that Bruce....the science channel show I saw specified only the 3 species of primates as self-aware......other primates did not pass the "test" of the experiment
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm inclined to agree with that, Bert.
    Archmage Atlantis: I am inclined to include all things in existence, plants and minerals also
    Bertram Jacobus: and may be , our tests are not always fiiting ...
    Archmage Atlantis: Of course
    Archmage Atlantis: One has too agree that the test used was valid
    Archmage Atlantis: I am not sure that I do
    Bruce Mowbray: Here is the TIME article:
    Bruce Mowbray: http://www.time.com/time/health/arti...008759,00.html
    Archmage Atlantis: ty, Bruce......I'll read it with interest later
    Bertram Jacobus: sure . but one could also ask : what is it good for ? and : wouldn´t it be better, to consider whether all beings have such, more or less ? to be on the good side and not to come to ideas of beings are less worth and so on ? ...
    Bruce Mowbray: I agree with Arch -- but more for philosophical/emotional reasons than for "scientific" ones.
    Ewan Bonham: perhaps it is not less or more...but just ...is..
    Bruce Mowbray: What it's "good for" is to give me (and everyone, if they want it) a sense of community with all that exists.
    Archmage Atlantis: Would agree with that stance,Ewan
    Ewan Bonham: Yes, Bruce
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow byron ! : you wear a jacket from the towm where i live ! ;o)
    Archmage Atlantis: I must admit the local insect population is testing my "beliefs" tho *g*
    Bruce Mowbray: Cologne?
    Byron Tennyson: I do?
    Bertram Jacobus: yess - it´s written on the back : köln - original german way to write it :-)
    Byron Tennyson: What a synchronicity :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yeah ! never saw such before here ;-)
    Byron Tennyson: Not sure who Gremium are :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Looks like a motorcycle club.
    Bertram Jacobus: donÂt know them either - a moto cycle club may be ? ;-)
    Byron Tennyson: Ah, ok, thanks
    Byron Tennyson: German Hells Angels maybe? ;p
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe - don´t hope so - but nice picture here (!) : http://www.gremium-koeln.de/ :-)
    Byron Tennyson: Thx
    Bruce Mowbray: Blub
    Byron Tennyson: Wow, so they actually exist, cool
    stevenaia Michinaga: looks like a nice warm and fuzzy mc club :)
    Byron Tennyson: I need get me a bike now :)
    Bruce Mowbray laughs.
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. to all : yes :o)
    Byron Tennyson: A Harley I think, yeah
    Ewan Bonham: lol
    Bruce Mowbray: back to the discussion about the "uses" of animal intelligence (and self-awareness). . .
    Archmage Atlantis: a Harley, a biker chick, and an attitude.....just to complete the ensemble
    Bruce Mowbray: Wouldn't self-awareness serve them in ways similar to how it serves humans?
    Byron Tennyson: Sure thing, Arch
    stevenaia Michinaga: laughs
    Byron Tennyson: I'll work on it ;-)
    Archmage Atlantis: *smile*
    Ewan Bonham: I think of my dog..
    Bertram Jacobus: hey eos ! ... ;-)
    Byron Tennyson: Does he ride a bike?
    Ewan Bonham: Does he have self awareness?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi eos
    Bruce Mowbray listens intently.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, eos.
    Byron Tennyson: Hello Eos
    Ewan Bonham: Hi eos
    Eos Amaterasu: HI beings :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: Well, according to the test, he will never recognize himself in a mirror.......but like I said, I and not sure I agree that is a valid test
    stevenaia Michinaga: wonders if "measuring" self awareness is simply a limiting definition of what everything else posses from only our standpoint
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Eos
    Ewan Bonham: perhaps in some ways, he is well connected with the creator..
    Eos Amaterasu wonders what a smell mirror might be like
    stevenaia Michinaga: does a whale or ant have it? we can;t ask them, can we
    Bruce Mowbray: We tend to project our own ways of "self" but perhaps there are many other ways of "self" than the human ways (even among humans ther are different ways of being self.)
    Archmage Atlantis: Excellent observation Eos
    Ewan Bonham: lol..eos
    Ewan Bonham: yes, Bruce.
    Ewan Bonham: i know this, my dog is well connected..
    Eos Amaterasu: opening up to more than human self: that's opening further....
    Bruce Mowbray thinks: My dog is a far better dog than I am a man.
    Archmage Atlantis: Too many bad, nauthy puns come to mind,Ewan....I will restrain my inner punster *g*
    Ewan Bonham: lol
    Byron Tennyson: Ok guys, I need to be elsewhere, bye for now :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am going over to the roadside philosophers
    Eos Amaterasu: dog scores 80% on the Being test; Bruce scores 73%... :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Byron
    Byron Tennyson: I'll be back ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: bye byron - come again if you like ! :-)
    Ewan Bonham: bye Byron
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care or cya there, anyone wants a landmark ?
    Archmage Atlantis: Bye, Byron
    Bruce Mowbray: I also need to go -- Thanks, Bert for guarding and thanks to all. Have an excellent day. (aware of self or not).
    Bertram Jacobus: bye bruce - cu have a nice day
    Eos Amaterasu: Roadside phiilosophers.... hope they watch out for the traffic....
    Archmage Atlantis: Oh, hi, Yak......and bye all....I have to go also
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye all
    Ewan Bonham: Thank you all...until later on..
    Bertram Jacobus: bye arch ... *wave* ... and ewan ...
    stevenaia Michinaga: laundry calls, see you Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: ah - and eos (That was a short visit ! nad yaku) ... ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: oki bye steven :-)


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