2010.08.23 13:00 - The Wheel of Time needs no Lag

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Agatha Macbeth. The comments are by Agatha Macbeth.  This session was unusually serious for one of mine (!) and seemed to throw up some interesting stuff.  Sadly, it was also  plagued by lag and crashes, causing us to lose both Bruce and Morgano half way through.


    When I arrived at the pavilion I was sitting alone for a few minutes, so decided to rez the 'Winter Meadow' Moon had given me around the pool. Suddenly, an unfamiliar figure appeared from the foilage...

    Agatha Macbeth: Konnichi wa :)
    Uns Mistwalker: greetings.

    I hastily restore the Pavilion to its normal appearance!

    Agatha Macbeth: Sorry, just feeling mischevious ;-)
    Uns Mistwalker: that was nice
    Agatha Macbeth: Allow me to give you a notecard
    Uns Mistwalker: completely made my brain freeze.
    Uns Mistwalker: have been here before
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, then I should explain that we record conversation here and publish it on a wiki
    Agatha Macbeth: I require your permission for your comments to be recorded :)
    Uns Mistwalker: understood....was at a session.
    Uns Mistwalker: and consent once more
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, you HAVE been to PaB before?
    Uns Mistwalker: Yes.
    Agatha Macbeth: Sorry, misunderstood
    Agatha Macbeth: (Your AO appears to be on)
    Agatha Macbeth: Better!
    Uns Mistwalker: ty
    Agatha Macbeth: The winter forest was given to me by a fellow guardian :)
    Agatha Macbeth: I rez it sometimes when I am sitting alone
    Uns Mistwalker: It is beautiful, and if you wish to rez it again, please do so.
    Uns Mistwalker: The sudden change was something I had never seen in sl before.
    Agatha Macbeth: Well, now someone else has arrived I prefer to keep it in my inventory :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Ha
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes
    Agatha Macbeth: It can be disconcerting!
    Agatha Macbeth: You have been in SL a year now, yes?
    Uns Mistwalker: Yes, i experienced a physical sensation.
    Uns Mistwalker: correct
    Agatha Macbeth: Same as me :)
    Agatha Macbeth: When was your first PaB session then?
    Uns Mistwalker: hmmm...less than or about 2 weeks ago....putative topic was time.
    Agatha Macbeth smiles
    Agatha Macbeth: We seem to talk about time a lot here :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Time and no-time...
    Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Bruce :)
    Agatha Macbeth: And hello Morg :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, folks.
    Uns Mistwalker: hello Bruce,
    morgano Bravin: hiya
    Agatha Macbeth: Uns was telling me this is only his second visit


    Agatha Macbeth: (Hi Zon)
    Zon Quar: (hi hi)
    Uns Mistwalker: Yes, I was interested in discovering whether the energy I observed in my first visit persisted in the sim when not formal session
    Agatha Macbeth: (And hello Wester :)
    Wester Kiranov: hi all
    morgano Bravin: Hi Zon, Wester
    Uns Mistwalker: hello wester, morgano, zon
    Agatha Macbeth: Well, we can a bit sillier when it not a formal session (heh)

    Bruce poofs...

    Agatha Macbeth: Where did Bruce go?

    Bruce returns...
    Agatha Macbeth: Crashed again Brucie?
    Zon Quar: should we normally be serious ?
    Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.
    Agatha Macbeth: Well, I cant ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: I'd just welcomed Uns - and Pffft!
    Uns Mistwalker wonders where 'play' as being would be w/o the play? izzat a koan or sumpin?
    Agatha Macbeth: Are you in that café again?
    Agatha Macbeth ponders
    Bruce Mowbray: Nope in a library far far away.
    Wester Kiranov: I don't think he have to be deadly serious... just keep in mind why we're here
    Agatha Macbeth: Could be
    Agatha Macbeth: Well it is PLAY as Being after all [grin]
    Wester Kiranov: right
    Zon Quar: sry been called..c u
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Wester Kiranov: cu zon
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Zon, enjoy
    Bruce Mowbray: bye, Zon.
    morgano Bravin: bye zon
    Bruce Mowbray: so what wonderful topics are under discussion today?
    Agatha Macbeth: The floor is open :)
    Agatha Macbeth: (In other words - dunno yet)
    Uns Mistwalker: yes, it is always so dangerous to have an open floor..people fall right through.
    Wester Kiranov: :D
    Agatha Macbeth: I like it!
    Bruce Mowbray: OK. Well, I've been thinking all day about "rigidity" and "chaos" as two poles on the sanity spectrum.
    Agatha Macbeth: Wow
    morgano Bravin: I read somewhere that thoughts have some tangible gravity,,or mass
    Uns Mistwalker: at each pole lies insanity.
    Bruce Mowbray: That mental health involves integration of things that are combinations of rigidity and chaos....
    Agatha Macbeth: They do?
    morgano Bravin: sorry Bruce,,was thinking of something at the same time as you
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, every single mental health diagnosis is some combination of rigidity/chaos...
    Bruce Mowbray: OK -- Go for it!
    Agatha Macbeth: Hm, interesting
    Wester Kiranov: combination of rigidity and chaos - that does sound like life
    morgano Bravin: can you say more bruce?
    morgano Bravin: can you say more bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- I was going to ask morgano to say more!
    Agatha Macbeth: You can both say more! :p
    Bruce Mowbray: Maybe we can combine our disparate topics here.
    morgano Bravin: no, please you carry on
    Bruce Mowbray: or, integrate them somehow.
    Bruce Mowbray: Well. . . I was thinking about meditation as a vehicle for integrating.
    Agatha Macbeth: Maybe they are the same topic?
    morgano Bravin: have you an example of how the chaos and ridgity manifest themselves?
    Uns Mistwalker: Daniel Siegal, in "Mindsight" explores the ways he uses mindfulness practice to produce changes in brain structure and facilitate integration in clients.
    morgano Bravin: can you give an example of this ridgidity and chaos Bruce?

    Bruce poofs...again...
    Agatha Macbeth: Ooops...gone again
    morgano Bravin: strange,,i have repeated the same text in chat and both times they have not appeared in my chat box
    Agatha Macbeth: Maybe the sim is laggy tonight
    Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Fox :)
    morgano Bravin: I was asking whether Bruce has an example of chaos and ridgidity ?
    Agatha Macbeth: And hello my sweet Ara :)
    arabella Ella: Good evening everyone!
    morgano Bravin: hi fox
    arabella Ella: Hiya lovely agatha!
    morgano Bravin: evening Arabella
    Fox Monacular: Hello everyne!
    Uns Mistwalker: If we are talking about mental health, an example of chaotic behavior might be someone with Borderline Personality Disorder, and one of rigid behavior, someone on the autism spectrum.
    morgano Bravin: Hi Ara
    Wester Kiranov: hi ara, fox
    Uns Mistwalker: hi ara, fox
    Agatha Macbeth: Well, when he comes back we can ask him! ;-))

    Bruce returns...again...
    arabella Ella: Oh hallo Bruce!
    Agatha Macbeth: wb Bruce
    Agatha Macbeth: (Again)
    morgano Bravin: bruce has gone insane
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes Uns, interesting
    arabella Ella: well he had a soft landing :)
    morgano Bravin: ahh,,thats better bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: yep --- insane is probably the word for it --- At least frustrated.
    Agatha Macbeth: He left insane and came back cured [grin]
    Bruce Mowbray: Please continue with your discussion...
    Agatha Macbeth reads back to remember what's going on


    morgano Bravin: I was asking whether Bruce has an example of chaos and ridgidity ?
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah yes, do you Bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: rigidity: fundamentalist thinging /// chaos:manic thinking
    Bruce Mowbray: thinking
    Agatha Macbeth: Doesn't seem much of a choice...
    morgano Bravin: wow,,my text is appearing well out of context and time
    Bruce Mowbray: rigidity: compulsive behavior //// chaos: hyperactive behavior
    Agatha Macbeth: Probably your connection Morg
    morgano Bravin: thanks Bruce
    Agatha Macbeth: 'Sera Qt :)
    Bruce Mowbray: welcome, Qt.
    Qt Core: hi all
    arabella Ella: Ciao Qt!
    morgano Bravin: yes, i am affraid i am not well connected
    Wester Kiranov: hi qt
    Agatha Macbeth: Well I tend to be compulsive *and* hyperactive ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: I don't want to interrupt the thread of thought during my crash -- so what's the topic and what did Uns just say that was interesting (that I missed)?
    Agatha Macbeth: Hang on
    Bruce Mowbray: ok.
    Uns Mistwalker: you captured it well bruce...
    Agatha Macbeth: Uns Mistwalker: If we are talking about mental health, an example of chaotic behavior might be someone with Borderline Personality Disorder, and one of rigid behavior, someone on the autism spectrum.
    Bruce Mowbray: excellent examples, thank you.
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    Bruce Mowbray: what I was trying to say before crashing was -- that meditation can be a vehicle for integration.
    Wester Kiranov: on the behavior level, those seem good examples, but on the inside it might not be the same...
    Agatha Macbeth: I agree Bruce, it probably can
    Bruce Mowbray: integration: bringing disparate things into meaningful or balanced linkage.
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    arabella Ella: how do you see meditation acting as an integrating force then Bruce?
    Uns Mistwalker: current diagnostic norms in mental health are behavioral.
    Bruce Mowbray: well, there are thousands of methods, of course.
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, Uns.... ultimately there would have to be behavioral components and results.
    Bruce Mowbray: For myself, I've been imaginging a wheel - with balance at the hub and all the crazy stuff out along the rim.
    Bruce Mowbray: but meditation is a sort of network of spokes that bring me back to the hub's balance and integration...
    Agatha Macbeth: The wheel seems to be an archetypal symbol in Eastern thought
    Bruce Mowbray: indeed, it is.
    Agatha Macbeth: I have always wondered why...
    Uns Mistwalker: like the fish cirum-navigating around bruce's head.
    Agatha Macbeth smiles
    Bruce Mowbray thinks : cycles, repetitive patterns, balance
    Agatha Macbeth: Like Kalachakra: the Wheel of Time for example
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, say more aggers.
    Agatha Macbeth thinks
    Bruce Mowbray: (or anyone else....), please.
    Agatha Macbeth: Something to do with Tantric Buddhism I seem to recall
    Agatha Macbeth wikis
    morgano Bravin: It goes well with some other idea's i have had lately
    Fox Monacular: circles, mandalas are old cosmological images that pretty much all cultures share
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalachakra
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah mandalas, of course
    Agatha Macbeth: Forgot about that
    Bruce Mowbray: http://www.google.com/images?q=manda...w=1130&bih=535
    Uns Mistwalker: and of course, the sumi e brush stroke 'enso'
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh, pretty..
    Bruce Mowbray: indeed, the enso --
    Fox Monacular: jung used the mandala imagery when talking about integrating archetypes into a 'balanced' healty personality
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes Fox :))
    Agatha Macbeth: The Whole
    Bruce Mowbray looks at Fox's enso shirt.
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: I love those images Bruce
    Fox Monacular: indeed
    Bruce Mowbray: cool mandalas, aren't they?
    Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
    Bruce Mowbray: anyway, I was thinking about integration of differing things -- in my life...
    Agatha Macbeth listens
    Bruce Mowbray: sort of making a medation mandala out of disparate and sometimes chaotic stuff..
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    Bruce Mowbray: and realizing that the image of the hub of the wheel was useful.
    morgano Bravin: I was thinking how so many things have a sort of gravity,,including 'normality'
    Agatha Macbeth: Whatever 'normality' is Morg ;-)
    Fox Monacular: yes, and this 'normality' is often politically and socially determined:)
    morgano Bravin: was thinking how some things in life have a sort of gravity,,like a normalizing factor
    Agatha Macbeth: Agreed Fox :)


    Fox Monacular: in our culture we only think of mental health in terms of deviation from this statistical average
    Agatha Macbeth: I must have missed the 'normalising factor' in my life!!
    arabella Ella: havent we all Ags?
    Agatha Macbeth grins

    Morgano poofs...
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh hell, now we lost Morgano :(

    Bruce poofs...again...again (this time never to return)
    Wester Kiranov: There is this really seventies sticker here in the Netherlands, that says (translated): Did you ever meet someone normal? And, did you like it?
    Agatha Macbeth: Hehe
    Fox Monacular: good one, Wester
    arabella Ella: LOL
    Agatha Macbeth: Was that in Amsterdam? ;-)
    Uns Mistwalker: yes, in American culture, at least.... mental health = able to hold a job, and pay taxes, not cost the state money.
    Wester Kiranov: Amsterdam as well, of course :)
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    arabella Ella: i guess many people may be perceived as 'normal' but their interior is more often than not rather different when one delves deeper
    Qt Core: Here we have a Venezia dialect sayiung that say "we don't wante them if they aren't mad"
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh indubitably Ara
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Bleu :)
    Bleu Oleander: hey all :)
    Qt Core: Hi Bleu
    Wester Kiranov: hi bleu
    Agatha Macbeth grins @ Qt
    arabella Ella: and anyway people who are at least a bit crazy are always more interesting
    arabella Ella: Hiya Bleu!
    Agatha Macbeth zooms in to see what Bleu is wearing...
    Wester Kiranov: luckily most people are
    Fox Monacular: well, then, perhaps 'normal' should be changed to 'adapted' or 'integrated' instead of defining ourselves by our 'deviations' and 'handicaps'?
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Wester Kiranov: if you look a bit closer
    Fox Monacular: Hi Bleu!
    Agatha Macbeth: Wow, cute
    Bleu Oleander: ty!
    arabella Ella: also Fox perhaps as 'conservative'?
    Fox Monacular: in what sense, Ara?
    Agatha Macbeth crosses herself at the mention of the c-word
    arabella Ella: conservative as in sticking to established norma like Bruce said, holding a steady job, paying taxes, doing stuff as expected etc
    arabella Ella: also behaviour and clothes wise
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    Fox Monacular: oh, ok, no that's not what I meant...:)
    arabella Ella: oh * norms
    Qt Core: but don't forget that some may really like plain and quiet
    Fox Monacular: I probably didn't word it right
    Agatha Macbeth: Damn, I'm sorry we lost Bruce - things were just getting interesting!
    Wester Kiranov: since when is it conservative to pay taxes ? ;)
    arabella Ella: i was quoting Bruce
    arabella Ella: with a sort of example of a person who fits into a system in a rather consevative nondescript way
    arabella Ella: brb
    Agatha Macbeth: 'You don't have to be conservative to pay taxes but it helps'
    Fox Monacular: in most societies there are niches for 'deviant' ones too, the question is whether a person can recognize that niche!
    Wester Kiranov: I thought conservatives usually wanted as little taxes as humanly possible?
    Agatha Macbeth: Too right Fox!
    Uns Mistwalker: _/!\_
    Wester Kiranov: bye uns
    Fox Monacular: take care, Uns
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, but they usually have all the money ;-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye uns
    Qt Core: istituzionalized deviants, even worse than average
    Agatha Macbeth: Probably
    Fox Monacular: right, yes, but there are other possibilites
    Fox Monacular: like students even in most conservative places are usually expected to be a little deviant and so a generally left alone
    Fox Monacular: or artists
    Fox Monacular: or writers
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh definitely artists :p
    Fox Monacular: shamans
    Qt Core: i had most of the fights of my life starting when someone told me "but everyone does/says/thinks that"
    Agatha Macbeth: And poets
    Fox Monacular: whatever works, really
    Agatha Macbeth: I think maybe 'bohemian' is the word we are looking for
    Fox Monacular: yes, sure, it's always a problem... although when i was a teenager I remember pretty clearly how whenever someone in a position of authority would say something, I would do exactly the opposite
    Fox Monacular: or maybe 'marginal' is the word
    Agatha Macbeth: As Patti Smith said 'Art is an anagram of rat: a rodent, a misfit'
    Wester Kiranov: someone defined being grown up as being able to do the right thing - even if it's what your parents would do
    Qt Core: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Ha
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: 'Doing the right thing' now there's a trick


    Wester Kiranov: i do think we have some instinct for what would be best, even if our egos tend to get in the way. and the simple nonneutrality that comes with being human
    Fox Monacular: yes, like in a zen koan about a ruler who said that he should do 'whatever is needed'
    Wester Kiranov: what is that koan? tell me more
    Agatha Macbeth: Say more please Fox
    Fox Monacular: I don't really remember :(
    Agatha Macbeth: Aww
    arabella Ella: back
    Fox Monacular: but the gist was that the idea of doing 'whatever is needed' is a pretty obscure idea
    Agatha Macbeth: We should IM Storm, he'll know!
    Wester Kiranov: I am afraid I have to leave - have to get up early tomorrow
    Fox Monacular: no rules, being flexible, yet responsive and responsible
    Wester Kiranov: bye you all
    Agatha Macbeth: Obscure and difficult, if not impossible
    Fox Monacular: sounds simple but must be hard to do
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Wester
    Bleu Oleander: need to go too ... take care everyone :)
    Fox Monacular: bye Wester
    Fox Monacular: bye Bleu
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh, bye Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: bye :)
    arabella Ella: bye Wester bye Bleu
    Qt Core: going too, bye all
    Agatha Macbeth: Ciao Qt
    Fox Monacular: bye Qt

    The dust settles....
    Agatha Macbeth: Is something happening elsewhere?
    arabella Ella: bye Qt
    arabella Ella: i dont know
    Agatha Macbeth: That was certainly a mass exodus
    Fox Monacular: :)
    arabella Ella: yes it was
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh well
    Agatha Macbeth: So there will be another retreat in Malta next year then Ara?
    arabella Ella: yes
    arabella Ella: not next year tho
    arabella Ella: in january 2012
    Agatha Macbeth: ah, right
    Fox Monacular: if there's no apocalypse
    arabella Ella: LOL
    Agatha Macbeth: I get mixed up with all the years these days
    arabella Ella: the apocalyps would be in december
    arabella Ella: 2012
    Agatha Macbeth: There probably won't be
    Fox Monacular: oh, ok, so I have more time than I thought;)
    arabella Ella: yes you do
    Agatha Macbeth smiles
    arabella Ella: definitely
    arabella Ella: will any of you be joining us in malta
    Agatha Macbeth: Hard to say...
    Fox Monacular: If I win a lottery:)
    Agatha Macbeth: I would really like the New Orleans one
    arabella Ella: the intercontinental ones are difficult for me
    Agatha Macbeth: They are all difficult for me :(
    Fox Monacular: for me too
    arabella Ella: as Fox said i would have to win a lottery or get a huge inheritance
    Agatha Macbeth nods
    Fox Monacular: yes, then I'll go to all of them:)
    Agatha Macbeth: Ha
    arabella Ella: ah yes
    arabella Ella: and maybe lead a life of leisure
    arabella Ella: and simplicity
    Agatha Macbeth: Money makes the world go round
    arabella Ella: not always
    arabella Ella: i dont think money makes anyone happy
    Agatha Macbeth: Probably makes you less UNhappy
    Fox Monacular: coversely not having money (like me now) doesn't make one particularly unhappy
    arabella Ella: depends i think a happy medium is best
    Fox Monacular: just more concerned with stuff...
    arabella Ella: and i feel one can generally manage with whatever one has
    Agatha Macbeth: 'The person who knows they have enough is rich'
    arabella Ella: richness comes from friends and experience
    arabella Ella: rather than cash
    Agatha Macbeth: I wouldn't disagree Ara :)
    Fox Monacular: exactly
    Agatha Macbeth smiles
    arabella Ella: and the way i see it rich people always want more and often dont have time to enjoy what they have
    arabella Ella: moreover enjoying the pleasures in life is greater when they are occasional and not run of the mill
    Agatha Macbeth: I guess you can get used to having too much of anything
    Fox Monacular: and too little
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes! :)
    arabella Ella: it is like eating strawberries every day as opposed to eating them only when in season
    Agatha Macbeth: Or blueberries...
    arabella Ella: LOL


    Agatha Macbeth: :p
    Fox Monacular: haha
    Agatha Macbeth: Well folks, I need to be running along, thank you for a very interesting evening :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Take care Ara and Fox :)
    arabella Ella: bye Agatha thanks for interesting chat
    arabella Ella: i must go too bye for now Fox
    Fox Monacular: Bye Ara and Agatha!

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