2010.08.24 13:00 - Metaphor is a mountain

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    The Guardian for this meeting was SophiaSharon Larnia. The comments are by SophiaSharon Larnia. This session was attended by Bolonath, Bruce, adoro, Qt, and myself. During this session, we discussed the use of words without understanding them through experience, spiritual metaphor as a map, and letting yourself be seen.

    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Bolonath, how wonderful to see you :)
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste sophia :)
    Bolonath Crystal: hm, there is something wrong... i have to log in again
    Bolonath Crystal: brb
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ok :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Zon :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: welcome back Bolonath
    Bolonath Crystal: thank you :)
    Bolonath Crystal: much better now ...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I dont recall seeing you a session this slt :) But I haven't been coming here as much as I had
    Bolonath Crystal: i'm not often here, too
    Bolonath Crystal: lot of samsara :D
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I like to take breaks, talking about some things alot seem to circle them in your head sometimes
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I attended a talk by a lama yesterday, where he said we can't become enlightened by using language
    Bolonath Crystal: hm... let's say not by talking alone
    Bolonath Crystal: language can be a helpful tool
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi adoo, hi Bruce
    adoro Rhapsody: hi all
    SophiaSharon Larnia: adoro ** sorry :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello!
    Bolonath Crystal: but of course the process of enlightenment is considered to be nonverbal
    Bolonath Crystal: hello :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i beleive it is also Bolonath, I saw it as a bit of a predicament
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Bruce and adoro, I just said: I attended a talk by a lama yesterday, where he said we can't become enlightened by using language, we were talking about that
    Bolonath Crystal: i think, maybe he wanted to express, that enlightenment is not something to learn, but something to do
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Bolonath Crystal: or better: something to "not-do" ;)
    Bruce Mowbray: thanks, Sharon.
    Bolonath Crystal: wei wu-wei
    adoro Rhapsody: or not to catch in words
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods thoughtfully
    adoro Rhapsody: but more in feelings
    adoro Rhapsody: or emotions
    SophiaSharon Larnia: to not use language but to hear
    Bolonath Crystal: buddhists talk about "realisation"
    adoro Rhapsody: enlightment as a state of mind


    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
    Bolonath Crystal: in the yoga vedanta we learn about four states of the mind:
    adoro Rhapsody: that's another enlightment as the knowledge enlightment in the middle ages
    Bolonath Crystal: deep sleep, dream sleep, wake state and the "fourth state", turiya
    adoro Rhapsody: ok i sleep talked a few nights ago
    adoro Rhapsody: instead of sleepwalked
    Bolonath Crystal: is it another enlightenment or just another way to enlightenment?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: im listening, Im thinking of something that doesnt change
    adoro Rhapsody: at he 7.00 pm session of pab
    adoro Rhapsody: ok another way of enlightment
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I cant answer that, I feel there are more than one way
    adoro Rhapsody: still another way of enlightment by fysical weight is when u dont need books buut can all look up in wikipedia
    Bolonath Crystal: :D
    adoro Rhapsody: so pupils dont have to carry heavy bags with books
    Bolonath Crystal: i never looked up "enlightenment" in wiki *g*
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bolonath Crystal: according to the yoga vedanta there are several ways - techniques - to enlightenment: bhakti-yoga (devotion), raja-yoga (meditation), karma-yoga (fulfilling certain actions) and jnana-yoga (philosophy). so there is a place for words in jnana-yoga
    Bolonath Crystal: buddhism conncentrates in karma- and raja-yoga, technically spoken
    SophiaSharon Larnia: he was also challenging us to look at the phrases we use, habitually we 'look in the book' and use those words without really understanding what they mean as experience
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Bolonath Crystal: yes!
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Bolonath Crystal: some time ago i talked with some friends about taking refuge
    Bolonath Crystal: so many simply repeat the words without actually realising what they are talking about
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    adoro Rhapsody: we dont have time for enlightment it seems
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I was answering his questions that way at first, when he asked questions, before I knew what the point was
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so it was very useful
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: well i have to go tomorrow heavy day on work
    adoro Rhapsody: bye
    adoro Rhapsody: all
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye adoro :)
    adoro Rhapsody: gooed night
    Bolonath Crystal: bye adoro
    Bruce Mowbray: be well, adoro. good to see you again.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Bruce is really waving goodbye!
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: I love these animations.
    Bolonath Crystal: i like the namaste gesture :)
    Bolonath Crystal: yes, this one
    SophiaSharon Larnia: me too haha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: namaste
    Bruce Mowbray: One reason I come to PaB is to hear fresh metaphors ....
    Bruce Mowbray: expecially for things like "enlightenment."
    Bruce Mowbray: especially.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thats the thing with language, you can explain anything with a metaphor
    Bolonath Crystal: there are many of them in indian literature :)
    Bruce Mowbray: oh yes.
    Bolonath Crystal: it is also very intersting how some of these metaphors interfere with other religions
    Bruce Mowbray: but what I means is, to hear metaphors that Pabbers have created outof their own experience.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods@ both :)
    Bolonath Crystal: hehe, well, in 2000 years our wikipage will possibly replace the bible ;))
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: *gasps*
    SophiaSharon Larnia: heheh
    Bruce Mowbray: recently I've been using the metaphor of "wheel" -- both in discussions here and in my own RL practice.


    Bolonath Crystal: universe is always ready for a joke
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I've recently been reading that in the logs, Bruce, and seeing them too ^^ As well as your references to Inception, which I havent seen yet :)
    Bruce Mowbray: for me, spiritual metaphors are a bit like maps for the mind.
    Bolonath Crystal nods
    Bolonath Crystal: that's how i see it, too
    Bruce Mowbray: they might assist in finding one's way home. . .
    Bolonath Crystal: indeed. and non of them is more "true" than any other
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, Bolonath, that's why I enjoy the fresh experiential metaphors that Pabbers generate. . .
    Bolonath Crystal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: we're a metaphor machine alright
    Bruce Mowbray: each comes out of that individual's won experience -- and can probably be relied upon, somewhat, for finding that individual's way home.
    Bruce Mowbray: own experience.
    Bolonath Crystal: nothing has as many names as the unnameable ;)
    Bruce Mowbray: That's for sure!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and sometimes make up words :D
    Bolonath Crystal: but as the dao de king says: if you can give it a name it is not the dao
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :D
    Bruce Mowbray: within the map's structure (metaphorical architecture) one can find dynamics that can be of assistance. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: for example, with my metaphor of the wheel. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: it "works" for me to tell myself, "You are now way out on the rim. Get back to the hub."
    SophiaSharon Larnia thinks of the lunatic fringe, and thinks that comment is out of place
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Qt :)
    Qt Core: hi all
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste qt :)
    Bruce Mowbray: it really does feel like a "lunatic fringe," sometimes, Sharon.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Bruce Mowbray: welcome, Qt.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: we're talking about using metaphors to describe our experiences, Qt
    Qt Core: in some form we use them for everything
    Bruce Mowbray: I've also used the metaphor of a comet. . . orbiting its sun . . . and having to go WAYYYYYY out into the darkness before it lets itself be pulled back in.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I do know that talking about something too much, using too many metaphors, will bring me to that wavy fringe, if I don't look at what's happening
    Bruce Mowbray: absolutely. . . and there's the irony in ALL so-called spiritual language.
    Bruce Mowbray: The map is not the territory.
    Bolonath Crystal: i like to compare the spiritual path with a walk in the mountains. sometimes it is going up, sometimes down, but always forwards
    Bruce Mowbray: wonderful!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sometimes Ive sat down
    SophiaSharon Larnia: tired :)
    Bruce Mowbray: and full of beautiful surprises!
    Qt Core: but in very hard passage where the path is very tight you may have to go sideways ;-)
    Bolonath Crystal: well, who doesn't, sophia? :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: and sometimes walk in circles.
    Bruce Mowbray: and sometimes take a sip from a cool creek.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, sitting down and looking around can reveal some things
    Bruce Mowbray thinks: This is Bolonath's metaphor. . . not mine, but I like it very much.
    Bolonath Crystal: sometimes we have to stop and look around to become aware of where we are and where to go
    Bolonath Crystal: and use metaphors :)
    Qt Core: does anyone have a soul gps ?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ha!
    Qt Core: ;)
    Bolonath Crystal: :D
    Bruce Mowbray: I feel that I do, Qt.
    Bolonath Crystal: kind of
    Bruce Mowbray: sort of like a compass - but multidimentional.
    Bolonath Crystal: conscience
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Bruce Mowbray: or, for me, a sense of getting lost.


    Qt Core: in the end everybody has one (or he would not be able to live) but i was just kidding
    Bruce Mowbray: Someone pointed out to me the other day that there are two "north's." One toward the north pole, and the other toward a lot of magnetized iron under Greenland.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a soul gps like an instinct
    Bruce Mowbray: She said she would rather steer by the "inner stuff" - not true north.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh yes Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: perhaps she was talking about "instinct"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I think so, following a true self
    SophiaSharon Larnia: rather than what someone else says
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, indeed. and that might sometimes be different for what others say is "true north."
    Bruce Mowbray: from what...
    Bolonath Crystal: "true" is always a kind of definition. many times when i hear people debating about "truths" i found out that they are debating about completely different things
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, that is 'true' :D
    Bolonath Crystal smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, and often getting really worked up about it, too.
    Bolonath Crystal: yep
    Bolonath Crystal: starting wars and things
    Bolonath Crystal: who was the first to say "there is only one truth"?
    Qt Core: sometimes a war (even if only on personal scale) is easyer than even only accept the idea of other ideas being right
    Bolonath Crystal: yes, seems so
    Bruce Mowbray: many pathways around that mountain.
    Bruce Mowbray: also, when actually hiking on the mountain, one cannot see the mountain to be a mountain, often.
    Bolonath Crystal: i always find it fascinating to see things in a different way
    Bolonath Crystal: it enlarges my inner horizon :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: with my metaphor of the wheel and the hub -- I enjoy have the hub become larger and larger -- and eventually it embraces all the spokes.
    Bruce Mowbray: (and the pathways into itself).
    Bruce Mowbray: all of the pathways.

    Bruce Mowbray: Do you sometimes let yoursel be SEEN in different ways, Bolonath?
    Bolonath Crystal: by myself, you mean?
    Bruce Mowbray: (We're using that exercise in the Time Magic group).
    Bruce Mowbray: well, just letting whatever wants to see you, actually see you.
    Bolonath Crystal: sometimes
    Bolonath Crystal: not always
    Bruce Mowbray: Pema's instruction is to "come out of hiding and let yourself be seen" - and that means a whole lot of different things to different people.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it's been a very interesting series of sessions
    Bruce Mowbray: indeed, it has.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and I've found the practice this week a lot easier than last
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Sharon, I missed the assignment for this week -- Is it the same as last week's?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes :)
    Bruce Mowbray: thank you!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: that first week I was a mess
    Bruce Mowbray: me too!!!
    Qt Core: more than wear mask i think that we use various color of optical filters for letting out only some part or ourselves
    SophiaSharon Larnia: felt better almost the minute that last session ended, I think it was just knowing I wasnt the only one, that was enough
    Bruce Mowbray: good point, Qt.
    Bruce Mowbray: me too, Sharon.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Qt :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yea, it was kind of weird
    Bruce Mowbray: I vow never to read the reports until after I've written and posted my own. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: ands this week I felt really weird about mine. . .


    Bruce Mowbray: but it turned out that several of us were having troubles.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: well, I've been busy and didn't have a chance before he weeks before
    Bolonath Crystal: what kind of things are that, these "myselfs" and "ourselves"?
    SophiaSharon Larnia was picture some really cool glasses, steampunk -like, with 100's of filters like camera
    Bolonath Crystal: what do i let be seen if i show "myself"?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods, I was thinking of the what is this self question also
    SophiaSharon Larnia: part of the ackk!
    Bolonath Crystal: another metaphor? ;)
    Bruce Mowbray: Chances are pretty good that what you THINK you're letting others see is not the same thing that they ARE seeing.
    Bolonath Crystal: i'm quite sure about that, bruce
    Qt Core: me too
    SophiaSharon Larnia: well, thats kind of scary
    Bruce Mowbray: I said "you" but of course, I was talking about myself.
    Qt Core: if we attain perfect comunication i think it would be boring
    Bolonath Crystal: everyone creates another bolonath in his/her personal universe, when i let myself be seen (or whoever else)
    Bolonath Crystal: hehe, i rather think that would be shocking, qt ;)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Qt Core: yes, in the beginning surely ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: The Time Magic exercise is "interesting -- It is OUR experience of letting ourselves be seen. . . not what others (or Nature, in my case) actually sees.
    Bruce Mowbray: so there is a sort of "boomerang" effect.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (brb)
    Qt Core: with only your reaction pn being yourself, not others reactions ?
    Bolonath Crystal: it is our experience anyway (as the "others" are our experience, too)
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, it's still "our" experience - and our awareness of appearances.
    Bolonath Crystal: good to know, that the world outside and "ourselves" are both experiences of "our self" :)
    Bolonath Crystal: that'S advaita vedanta *g*
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, like "letting" the mirror "see" you. . . and then what do you see in the mirror?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: back, and yes Qt, your reaction
    Bolonath Crystal: ah, what a mindbuggling imagination, bruce... :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thats one way to look at it
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm mind-bungled myself often!
    Bruce Mowbray: most of the time, in fact.
    Bruce Mowbray: Bolanath, it is good to meet you - and I hope you'll return to the fountain soon.
    Bruce Mowbray: I am now off to climb a couple of mountains...
    Bolonath Crystal: yep, tomorrow 1 am
    SophiaSharon Larnia: mind-bungled like being lost, but i used to really enjoy the feeling of being lost, in no hurry to go anywhere
    Bruce Mowbray: May all be well and happy.
    Bolonath Crystal: have a good time, bruce
    Bolonath Crystal: om shanti
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Bruce! Be careful :D
    Qt Core: have fun bruce
    Bolonath Crystal: that a great way to look at it, sophia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles, I haven't thought of it for a while
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I do have to go too, rl is calling me :D
    Bolonath Crystal: it always works :)
    Bolonath Crystal: well, yes, me too
    SophiaSharon Larnia: haha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Bolonath, hope to see you again soon
    Qt Core: bye then i only have the bed calling me ;-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Qt ave fun :))
    Bolonath Crystal: bye, om shanti
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sweet dreams :)
    Bolonath Crystal: Hey!
    Qt Core: bye


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    WHAT a great session... so many treasures.
    I particularly like Bruce's um... metaphor here: Bruce Mowbray: The Time Magic exercise is "interesting -- It is OUR experience of letting ourselves be seen. . . not what others (or Nature, in my case) actually sees.
    Bruce Mowbray: so there is a sort of "boomerang" effect.
    Posted 18:32, 24 Aug 2010
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