2010.08.24 19:00 - Closures of Being

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.


    Highlights:   Aphrodite's story of her day,

    coming from/being seen

    closures of being


    Eliza Madrigal: Aph, are you on the ground, or is my viewer not working correctly?

    Fox Monacular: Hi Eliza!

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fox! So nice to see you

    Aphrodite Macbain: I think I'm on the ground. Do I look like I'm floating?

    Fox Monacular: it's been a while!

    Eliza Madrigal: you are near the notecard holder and not in the pavillion to my 'view' Aph




    Eliza Madrigal: Yes Fox, too long :)

    Fox Monacular: :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: I don't understand what ou aid

    Eliza Madrigal: :) That's okay... might be my viewer

    Aphrodite Macbain: you Eliza

    Fox Monacular: hey Eos!

    Eliza Madrigal: no worries :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos :)

    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Eliza, Fox, Aphro

    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Eos

    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, you appeared in the pavillion now Aph

    Eliza Madrigal: (to me)

    Aphrodite Macbain: Hopeyou don't mind the fact that I brought my own school of fish

    Eos Amaterasu: Fox is pale as death....

    Eliza Madrigal: It seems to be a trend...

    Eliza Madrigal: not paleness... fishiness...

    Fox Monacular: jellyfish

    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: Fox was pale this morning. I thought he was getting married

    Fox Monacular: can i join your school, Aphro?

    Fox Monacular: :) hehe

    Eliza Madrigal: jellyfish..,. cute

    Aphrodite Macbain: Sure. why not be the teacher?


    Aphrodite recounts the story of her day


    Aphrodite Macbain: I had a strange day today

    Eliza Madrigal listens

    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm on an island on the west coast of Canada. Gabriola Island

    Aphrodite Macbain: I went for a walk on these beautiful slabs of limestone rock

    Eliza Madrigal: mmm, sounds really nice

    Aphrodite Macbain: and watched a boat trying valiantly to get into a small bay but constantly failing because of the current

    Eos Amaterasu: hmm

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: I was very worried about them, afraid they might capsize but being helpless to help

    Eos Amaterasu: (hi Pema)

    Aphrodite Macbain: He Pema

    Fox Monacular: hi Pema

    Pema Pera: hi Eos, Eliza, Fox, Aphrodite!

    Eos Amaterasu: Aphro is telling the story of her day

    Eliza Madrigal gave pema a note

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Paradise :) I'll give you a note too...


    Aphrodite Macbain: After trying for an agonizingly long period of time they were able to sail back where they came from. The current was so strong they couldn't motor against it

    Paradise Tennant: smiles hello .. everyone :) waiting to rezz :)

    Fox Monacular: Hi Paradise!

    Aphrodite Macbain: Very tense. Then I put my hand on a wasp (they're everywhere) and it stung me badly.

    Pema Pera: (Hi Paradise)

    Fox Monacular: oh no...

    Eliza Madrigal: ouch

    Paradise Tennant: listens concerned

    Pema Pera holds his breath

    Aphrodite Macbain: It still is sore and swollen 4 hrs later. How can something so tiny make such a large impact!?

    Eos Amaterasu: hmm

    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, there is a question :)

    Fox Monacular: sounds terrible, Aphro

    Eliza Madrigal: Do you relate the two events somehow Aphrodite?

    Aphrodite Macbain: Anyway I made the day very frightening, Thank you for listening. I don't know what it all means

    Eos Amaterasu: thank you for sharing that in this space


    Fox Monacular: perhaps sometimes a wasp is just a wasp:)

    Eliza Madrigal giggles

    Aphrodite Macbain: That's what I've been wondering Eliza. It was like I was paying so much attention to the boat that I didn't notice I wS PUTTING MY HAND ONTO wasp

    Eos Amaterasu: hmm hmm leads to sting sting

    Aphrodite Macbain: sorry about the caps. Yes, it could be totally meaningless- just stressful to me

    Eliza Madrigal: understandable

    Eos Amaterasu: the day is kind of symbolic of itself

    Aphrodite Macbain: sting sing... sounds like an interesting proposition

    Aphrodite Macbain: what would be the symbol? dealing with adversity?

    Eos Amaterasu got stung by 6 wasps recently....

    Eliza Madrigal hears jazz... sing sing sing...

    Aphrodite Macbain: six!!?

    Eliza Madrigal: 6?!

    Fox Monacular: 6?

    Aphrodite Macbain: there was a reaction!

    Pema Pera: wow

    Fox Monacular: i've only been stung once i think... in my whole life

    Aphrodite Macbain: did you go to hospital?

    Pema Pera: lucky you, Fox!

    Eos Amaterasu: I didn't even realize they were there: apparently I mowed close to a nest they had in a beam

    Eliza Madrigal: me too Fox, at least by a wasp...

    Aphrodite Macbain: It's very painful. No stinger, just poison

    Eos Amaterasu: suddenly I felt all these stings

    Eos Amaterasu: (felt like a WW II movie :-)

    Eliza Madrigal: haha

    Eos Amaterasu: I immediately retreated

    Fox Monacular: sounds bad

    Aphrodite Macbain: ouch.

    Eos Amaterasu: the stings were long lasting

    Paradise Tennant: http://www.ehow.com/how_2048_treat-bee-sting.html

    Pema Pera: and then you did realize they were there . . .

    Aphrodite Macbain: what did youdo?

    Eos Amaterasu: I googled :-)

    Aphrodite Macbain: bee stings are different from wasp stings Paradise

    Paradise Tennant: bee sting 101 .. there are all kinds of things you can to reduce the pain

    Eliza Madrigal: well you pee on them... Oh, wait, that;s jellyfish...

    Aphrodite Macbain: bees leave their stinger, wasps just lots of poison

    Eliza Madrigal: (Sorry)

    Aphrodite Macbain: I went to a doctor and he gave me an ice pack

    Eos Amaterasu: Now I realize they are there....

    Eos Amaterasu: (the bees)

    Eos Amaterasu: in some kind of weird ecology in an old railroad tie

    Pema Pera: what did google say, Eos?

    Aphrodite Macbain: that's good don't disturb them unleass you are wearing the right stuff

    Eos Amaterasu: baking soda




    Aphrodite Macbain: yes. that's suppose to reduce the swelling

    Paradise Tennant: benedryl ?

    Eos Amaterasu: do you know that spot well, Aphrodite?

    Pema Pera: I once stepped on a wasp, near a swimming pool, got stung in the middle of a toe, underneath, very painful, and very hard to walk for a few days . . . .

    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, that happened to my daughter... walking across grass in sandals

    Aphrodite Macbain: no I just discovered it today Eos. Actually most distrubing was watching a sailboat foundering in the wather and being helpless

    Pema Pera: yes

    Aphrodite Macbain: to help

    Aphrodite Macbain: the curent was very very strong

    Aphrodite Macbain: kind of hit a deep fear in me

    Eliza Madrigal: powerlessness..

    Eos Amaterasu: yes, when you realize it's really out of your control, and could be dangerous....

    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes absolutely powerless to help

    Aphrodite Macbain: yes you understand thanks

    Pema Pera: hi Dakini!

    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi

    Paradise Tennant: hiya dakini

    Fox Monacular: Hi Dakini

    Aphrodite Macbain: It'slike you are watching a disaster hapen

    Eliza Madrigal: O.O! Hi Dakini :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: happen

    Eos Amaterasu: sometimes "deep in my heart I know there's no help I can bring"

    Paradise Tennant: what happened to the sailboat :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: what's that quote?

    Eos Amaterasu: from "To Ramona", by Bob Dylan (Sinead Lohan performance)

    Pema Pera: nice song . . .

    Aphrodite Macbain: it finally was able to turn itself around and go out the way it came in - it went with the flow

    Aphrodite Macbain: I helled and waved and said "yay!"

    Paradise Tennant: smiles

    Aphrodite Macbain: yelled

    Dakini Rhode: :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: but it was a real drama that I felt is was watching from a safe place-like a TV show


    Paradise sees flare over water


    Paradise Tennant: once was waking up looking out at the water and saw a flare about 7.30 on a november snowy morning .. blinked for a while and then called the harbour police with the co-ordinates .. :) then felt very quilty as I watched them head out against choppy waves in the cold ..

    Eliza Madrigal nods. You paint the picture well Aphrodite

    Aphrodite Macbain: thanks. What happened Paradise

    Pema Pera: but you helped them, Paradise, why did you feel guilty?

    Paradise Tennant: got home from work that nite and there was a thank you message from them .. turns out a boater was trying to move his power boat had engine failure and was close to running aground on some rocks .. he had only one flare and sleepy me saw it :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Wonderful!

    Pema Pera: how lucky he was!!

    Aphrodite Macbain: how wonderful. You were able to make a significantdifference

    Paradise Tennant: well could not really think of any good reason some one who was not in distress would shoot off a flare

    Paradise Tennant: but miserable day to have to go out in

    Paradise Tennant: smiles we are all connected :)

    Pema Pera: :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: There are so any times that we have choices to act or not

    Aphrodite Macbain: so many

    Aphrodite Macbain: It takes something extra to act

    Aphrodite Macbain: my computer doesnt know how to spell


    Coming from, like being seen


    Eos Amaterasu: we make the best decision we can, or try to come from a good place doing so

    Paradise Tennant: smiles yes but ultimately is easier ..

    Paradise Tennant: acting

    Eliza Madrigal: blame it on cereal in the keyboard, like bruce does :)

    Paradise Tennant: smiles

    Aphrodite Macbain: yes - but we usually realize that after the fact Paradie

    Pema Pera: nice twist Eos, to come from rather than to go to

    Paradise Tennant: yes

    Aphrodite Macbain: ok even tho it's not breakfast time?

    Pema Pera: like being seen instead of trying to see

    Paradise Tennant: yes

    Pema Pera: something I've been exploring a lot since the last retreat

    Eos Amaterasu listens

    Paradise Tennant: can you say more pema :)

    Pema Pera: and coming from, being prepared, sounds broader than going to, which can be too narrow

    Aphrodite Macbain: yes Pema?

    Pema Pera: similarly trying to see is narrow

    Pema Pera: you focus on one spot

    Pema Pera: while letting yourself be seen is much broader

    Pema Pera: you fan out, letting all be in non-focus in some way

    Pema Pera: hard to put in words . . .

    Aphrodite Macbain: How do you "let" yourself be seen?

    Pema Pera: just try it and it will grow on you -- that was my experience at least, it's still growing :-)

    Aphrodite Macbain: relax ?

    Pema Pera: part of it, yes

    Pema Pera: you can start with a very simple exercise

    Aphrodite Macbain: stop pretending?

    Pema Pera: take an object, a stone say, or a tree

    Aphrodite Macbain: yes?

    Pema Pera: and instead of looking at the stone, let the stone look at you

    Pema Pera: and just sit or stand with that for a few minutes

    Pema Pera: not expecting anything at all

    Pema Pera: not judging

    Pema Pera: just letting yourself be seen

    Aphrodite Macbain: become self consious?

    Pema Pera: as the object, not the subject, of the seeing

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Steve :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: oh

    stevenaia Michinaga: evening

    Eos Amaterasu: looking at the fountain....

    Pema Pera: drop all judging, including about consciousness or "what it means"

    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Stevenia




    Pema Pera: hi Steve!

    Eos Amaterasu: fountain looking at me

    Aphrodite Macbain: that's a tough one Pema

    Aphrodite Macbain: laptop loking at me

    Dakini Rhode: hi Steve

    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Dikini, ltns

    stevenaia Michinaga: Dakini

    Dakini Rhode: :)

    Paradise Tennant: smiles hiya steve :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: join us steve

    Fox Monacular: interesting, letting the object look at you... like freudian uncanny?

    Fox Monacular: Hi Steve!

    Eos Amaterasu: hi Steve, Dakini...

    Aphrodite Macbain: trouble is i see myself reflected in my monitor

    Eos Amaterasu: can you say more, Fox?

    stevenaia Michinaga: as soon as things rezz, I have a bad habit of finding occupied pillows to sit on

    Aphrodite Macbain: sit to the right of the redhed

    Aphrodite Macbain: redhead

    Eos Amaterasu: :-)

    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)

    Eliza Madrigal: Um... there are two :)

    Eos Amaterasu: :-) :-)

    Fox Monacular: the feeling that an object (often in the context of a work of art) returns your gaze and actively imposes its own

    Aphrodite Macbain: oops.

    Pema Pera: ( Aphrodite, two years ago we played with some of these subject/object reversal ideas in a Kira workshop; here is some material left from then

    Pema Pera: yes, it is often felt as uncanny, Fox, at first

    Pema Pera: adding some spice :-)

    Aphrodite Macbain: Hey thanks Pema

    Aphrodite Macbain: Amazing you were able to find this so quickly!

    Pema Pera: btw, Eos, that's another wiki that needs to be copied -- or it will be lost

    Pema Pera: well, I organized that workshop :-)

    Pema Pera: so I still remember :)

    Eos Amaterasu: (will remind tech group)


    Eliza introduces closure, and Pema and Eos run with it


    Eliza Madrigal: uncanny seems to go back to suspension for me... as does being seen... as in 'no closure' which was a screwy idea in the first place

    Eos Amaterasu: 'no closure'?

    Pema Pera: (or perhaps it was already copied? let's check later)

    Eliza Madrigal: closure was a screwy idea, I mean ... :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: could you say more Eliza?

    Eos Amaterasu: closure vs disclosure?

    Eos Amaterasu: greek word for truth = aletheia : a (from) lethe (forgetfulness)

    Eliza Madrigal: not much, except that I've been working with staying open to being seen...

    Aphrodite Macbain: =disclosure?

    Eos Amaterasu: how does that feel?

    Eliza Madrigal: and there is much to that which seems to demand being in tension... or getting comfortable with not finishing/fixing

    Pema Pera: or perhaps relaxing in the tension, without trying to cut/end the tension?

    Eliza Madrigal: tension not quite as in conflict though it seems similar at first

    Aphrodite Macbain: that's really hard for me. to let things just "be"

    Eliza Madrigal: yes Pema, relaxing IN the tension... interesting way of putting that

    Paradise Tennant: nods and listens

    Eos Amaterasu: the tension is also a fish

    Eliza Madrigal: I think Eos's coming 'from' has a similar taste...

    Aphrodite Macbain wonders how she would relax in the tension

    Eliza Madrigal: a fish? haha

    Pema Pera: closure is like putting a wrapper around it, a stamp, a judgment to store it away in memory, to organize the world according to the little schemes of the self/ego -- something like that, Eliza?

    Aphrodite Macbain: thanks for the fish

    Pema Pera: :-)

    Eliza Madrigal thinks that by the time she catches up with the fish thing happening around here everyone will have moved on to birds again...

    Eliza Madrigal: or cats :)

    Pema Pera: to eat the fish and the birds?

    Aphrodite Macbain wonders what it IS about fish

    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Pema re wrappers

    Eos Amaterasu: beautiful wrappers are encitements to opening

    Pema Pera: :0(

    Pema Pera: :-)

    Fox Monacular: and mysterious:)

    Pema Pera: (sorry, typo!)

    Pema Pera: sushi on keyboard

    Aphrodite Macbain: what do you do with wrapped closures? put them in the freezer?

    Eos Amaterasu: :-)

    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Pema Pera: yes, it's called memory, Aphro :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: Got to go and listen to some drumming in the woods. I'll make sure to avoid any wasps

    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha

    Pema Pera: freezing one's world according to one's own ideas . . . .

    Pema Pera: good luck, Aphrodite!


    Eos Amaterasu finds this intriguing re closures in programming languages....

    Pema Pera: ah, yes!

    Aphrodite Macbain grins at Pema

    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye

    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Aphrodite, enjoy :)

    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks for listening

    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, Eos?

    Aphrodite Macbain: bye

    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for sharing :)

    Eos Amaterasu: bye Aphro, and thanks so much for sharing your day

    Paradise Tennant: goodnite aprhodite

    Pema Pera: closure is a way to "wrap up" a world and pass it on to somewhere else -- wouldn't you say, Eos?

    Pema Pera: instead of paying with coins, you pay with a whole "state of a world"

    Eos Amaterasu: yes, it's a way to wrap whatever happens within a certain state, or initial state

    Pema Pera: so when you want to share a world, it's good to wrap it up

    Eos Amaterasu: I'm Popeye the sailor man

    Pema Pera: but when you wrap up your own world to put it into the freezer of memory, that may not be so good . . .

    Eos Amaterasu: that's a closure around Being




    Pema Pera thinks computer programming should be taught in early elementary school, together with reading, writing, adding, multiplying -- equally fundamental as a way of thinking and looking at the world.

    Pema Pera: thanks for a great metaphor, Eos!

    Eos Amaterasu: we should take our closures off :-)

    stevenaia Michinaga: :)

    Eliza Madrigal: ahaha

    Pema Pera: interestingly, closures lead to meta-programming : changing the program while it is running!

    Paradise Tennant: would certainly let us be seen :)

    Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed Paradise

    Pema Pera: using closures to then take them off :-)

    Eliza Madrigal: another interesting idea Pema...

    Eos Amaterasu: it's hard to grasp space with the naked hand

    Fox Monacular: although sometimes it seems important to have a 'closure' in order to move on with being...

    Pema Pera: a skin is a protection and also a communication channel . . . closures in codes are similar

    Eos Amaterasu: nothing wrong with closures - can't live without 'em

    Fox Monacular: thermodynamically open:)

    Fox Monacular: like an autopoietic system

    Pema Pera: (just googled closure; the term was invented in 1964, but became widespread through the use of the word in Scheme in 1975. . . interesting!)

    Eos Amaterasu: we avs are but smart skins...

    Eliza Madrigal: perhaps fixed closures are what hinders... which in that case they aren't really closed...

    Eos Amaterasu: no expression without closures

    Eos Amaterasu: no hand without skin

    Pema Pera: another interesting computer science metaphor: closures delay evaluation!

    Eos Amaterasu: futures!

    Pema Pera: allow postponing of judgment

    Pema Pera: wow

    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Pema Pera: shall we start a Kira computer class for players as Being, Eos?

    Eos Amaterasu: pre-collapse

    Eos Amaterasu: heh

    Pema Pera: only half kidding . . .

    Eos Amaterasu: only half, yes

    Eos Amaterasu: intentionality is call-by-future

    Pema Pera: if you kid half also, we can do it together :-)

    Eos Amaterasu: heh heh

    Pema Pera: yes, epoche is closure !!!

    Pema Pera: never thought about that

    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Eos Amaterasu: hmm, I suppose, yes: just that snowglobe

    Pema Pera: watching a state without (yet) acting on it

    Pema Pera: yes, the globe is a pretty good closure around the snow :)

    Fox Monacular: (sorry everyone, need to go now.. good night!)

    Eos Amaterasu: still in pre-collapse so to speak

    Pema Pera: when shall we start our workshop, Eos?

    Eliza Madrigal: Night Fox :)

    Pema Pera: bye Fox!

    Eliza Madrigal: Me too actually

    Pema Pera: bye Eliza!

    Eos Amaterasu: bye fox, eliza

    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for the lovely evening

    Eos Amaterasu: wow, was going to say exactly that!

    Pema Pera: same here!

    Paradise Tennant: good nite fox elzia :)

    Eliza Madrigal: :::waves::::

    Paradise Tennant: namaste

    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Namaste'

    stevenaia Michinaga: I am fading, night all

    Pema Pera: bye Steve!

    Paradise Tennant: good nite steve ..

    Paradise Tennant: I think I will scoot too :)

    Eos Amaterasu: I will go after the gong, 'night steve

    Paradise Tennant: thank you all :)

    Paradise Tennant: be well .. :) be seen !

    Dakini Rhode: i'll be off too... interesting watching the chat :)

    Dakini Rhode: nite

    Eos Amaterasu: Wow, I'm seeing you for the first time, Dakini

    Pema Pera: bye Dakini, thaks for joining us again!

    Pema Pera: really, Eos??

    Eos Amaterasu: I kept wondering where Dakini was

    Pema Pera: you mean first time ever, or first time today?

    Pema Pera: and well, hahaha, we got some kind of closure by scaring everybody away talking about closures, hehehe

    Eos Amaterasu: oh, first time today

    Eos Amaterasu wonders if that was coincidence

    Pema Pera: that very quickly cleaned out the whole circle :-)

    Pema Pera: who knows, just (half) kidding

    Pema Pera: lots of half kidding today

    Eos Amaterasu: I think there is something there, in programming language design

    Pema Pera: so, when shall we start our metaphoric meta programming workshop?

    Eos Amaterasu: especially regarding implementing intentionality for software

    Pema Pera: yes!

    Eos Amaterasu: so that it is not only "artificially intelligent" but also "cares"

    Eos Amaterasu: I think over the next month and a half I can integrate that with some of the things I've been doing




    Pema Pera: btw, here is part of a preface by Matsumoto, the inventor of Ruby, for a book written by somebody else about metaprogramming:

    Pema Pera:

    Ruby inherits characteristics from various languages -- Lisp, Smalltalk, C, and Perl, to name a few. Meta- programming comes from Lisp (and Smalltalk). It's a bit like magic, which makes something astonishing possible. There are two kinds of magic: white magic, which does good things, and black magic, which can do nasty things. Likewise, there are two aspects to metaprogramming. If you discipline yourself, you can do good things, such as enhancing the language without tweaking its syntax by macros or enabling internal domain-specific languages. But you can fall into the dark side of metaprogramming. Metaprogramming can confuse easily. Ruby trusts you. Ruby treats you as a grown-up programmer. It gives you great power such as meta- programming. But you need to remember that with great power comes great responsibility. Enjoy programming in Ruby.

    matz October 2009

    Eos Amaterasu: sounds like "the force" :-)

    Pema Pera: it's a great book, it sports two programmers, an experienced one and a relative beginner, and the more experienced one acts like a kind of friendly zen master :)

    Pema Pera: let me get the URL, just a sec

    Eos Amaterasu: I've come across this before: what is the book?

    Pema Pera: Amazon link


    Eos Amaterasu: Very nice evening. I just did a Pecha Kucha presentation on "Earth Cadet Net", with a few slides and seconds hinting at need for intentional programming

    Pema Pera: oh how interesting!

    Pema Pera: coding is "active math" or "math coming alive"

    Pema Pera: what is a Pecha Kucha presentation?

    Eos Amaterasu: Yes, we should pursue this further. I may prepare something more for a Knowledge Federation workshop....

    Pema Pera: what is a Knowledge Federation workshop?

    Pema Pera: (not from startrek??)

    Eos Amaterasu: actually, yes :-)

    Eos Amaterasu: (to starttrek)

    Eos Amaterasu: but, 

    Eos Amaterasu: 20 slides, each 20 seconds

    Eos Amaterasu: started in Tokyo

    Pema Pera: it's interesting: just reading that closures got popularized partly by Gerry Sussman, one of the inventors of scheme

    Eos Amaterasu: yes, SICP

    Pema Pera: Gerry's philosophy is: live life like debugging a code

    Eos Amaterasu: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs


    Pema Pera: in order words, the purpose of life is to run your life in order to debug it

    Pema Pera: yes, I got sicp in 1983 from Gerry, as a pre-manuscript :)

    Pema Pera: changed my coding style forever

    Pema Pera: how interesing, pecha kucha, was about to quip that it sounded Japanese -- but it is :-)

    Eos Amaterasu: those talks are all available as videos on the net from MIT

    Eos Amaterasu: I think kind of like monkey chant sounds, the sounds of conversation

    Eos Amaterasu: p'cha k'cha is how I say it

    Pema Pera: yes, that's probably the best English reading

    Eos Amaterasu: Chogyam Trungpa said that the monkey chant is the sound of naked sangha

    Pema Pera: sound of chattering away

    Eos Amaterasu: (fully disclosed?)

    Pema Pera: like a babbling brook :-)

    Eos Amaterasu: There'

    Pema Pera: we should keep talking about this, Eos -- so many interesting ideas


    Pema Pera: perhaps a theme meeting? We haven't had them for a while

    Eos Amaterasu: yes.

    Pema Pera: but may be too specialized?

    Pema Pera: how many programmers do we have here:

    Pema Pera: Wol, Fael, Storm, you, me, must be quite a few others . . . .

    Pema Pera: Calvino of course

    Eos Amaterasu: QT?

    Pema Pera: who else?

    Pema Pera: ah yes, Qt too

    Eos Amaterasu: Fefonz

    Pema Pera: yes

    Pema Pera: Lia of course!

    Eos Amaterasu: quite a group....

    Pema Pera: funny how names bubble up in memory, as from a beer glass . . .

    Pema Pera: must be more

    Pema Pera: Riddle!

    Pema Pera: okay, enough to fill the circle

    Pema Pera: shall we pick a date?

    Eos Amaterasu: next week?

    Pema Pera: let's first think about time zones

    Eos Amaterasu: give some advance notice

    Pema Pera: probably not a 7 pm, for the Europeans

    Pema Pera: not a 1 pm, since I'll sleep

    Pema Pera: not a 1 am, since you sleep

    Pema Pera: so 7 am obviously




    Eos Amaterasu: so 7 am SLT, that would work for me next week or week after (although which day?)

    Pema Pera: 7 am will be 11 pm, not ideal either, but just somewhat better than 5 am

    Pema Pera: how about sending an email to the PaB group, asking who is interested, and give thema few choices? We can give both 7 am and 1 pm (I can get up early as an exception). Next week I'll be in Beijing . . . How about the week after?

    Pema Pera: let's say Thursday or Friday,

    Pema Pera: so how about giving four choices:

    Pema Pera: 7 am and 1 pm

    Pema Pera: and September 9 and 10

    Pema Pera: would all four work for you?

    Eos Amaterasu: Yes, at the moment looks good, so I'll plan around that

    Pema Pera: Okay: how about you sending an email to the group, after you post this log: it will help giving people a chance to read the log for today, to get an idea


    Eos Amaterasu: And the theme ....

    Pema Pera: hmmm

    Eos Amaterasu: wasn't there once a session around computer languages?

    Eos Amaterasu: (I wasn't there)

    Pema Pera: one about debugging yes

    Pema Pera: about Gerry Sussman's idea in fact!

    Pema Pera: Quite a while ago

    Pema Pera: perhaps triggered by ThreeDee, also a programmer, and Adelene, same?

    Pema Pera: we could call it "closures and continuations" but that's still a bit cryptic

    Eos Amaterasu: there's drawing on the programming domain for metaphors and language (such a that of closure)

    Eos Amaterasu: how sofware can think?

    Eos Amaterasu: more importantly, how software can care?

    Pema Pera: yes

    Eos Amaterasu: or, specific concepts such as closure

    Pema Pera: software = mathematics + time

    Pema Pera: --> life

    Eos Amaterasu: so maybe we can present that as the general context within which to investigate being

    Eos Amaterasu: & fortune

    Pema Pera: :-)

    Eos Amaterasu: there's strange ways in which some languages, such as Clojure, deal with time

    Eos Amaterasu: Anway, I'll draft a letter

    Pema Pera: yes!

    Pema Pera: hard to put all that in a short title . . .

    Pema Pera: perhaps you can come up with something

    Eos Amaterasu: okay, I'll give it a try tomorrow

    Pema Pera: to continue the "coming from" metaphor :-)

    Pema Pera: okay, thanks a lot, Eos

    Eos Amaterasu: now I should go to bed - good night!

    Pema Pera: A good American session: "for fun and profit"

    Pema Pera: sleep well

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    jolly good fellow
    35.18 kB17:15, 25 Aug 2010eosActions
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    Excellent session... I'm not a programmer by a longshot, however the theme session sounds great! Also... nice version of this song. :) Thanks
    Posted 19:42, 25 Aug 2010
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