2010.08.26 07:00 - "How would I know? It's your dream"

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey storm
    Yakuzza Lethecus: how is ur morning ?
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Yaku!
    Storm Nordwind: I'm a little dazed, but otherwise fine thank you :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i also try t obecome a bit more relaxed now
    Storm Nordwind: Just now, or habitually?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: oh, i should be habitually
    Yakuzza Lethecus: that doesn´t really work yet, but dropping is related to that
    Storm Nordwind believes the word "should" should be removed from the English language
    Yakuzza Lethecus: at least it´s a reminder of seeing triggers that keep us stuck in habits
    Yakuzza Lethecus: dropping means to me to see habits and to drop those which i see as the main goel
    Yakuzza Lethecus: goal
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bruce

    What to drop and what not to drop?

    Storm Nordwind: How do you tell between beneficial and harmful habits, those that you should drop and those you should not?
    Bruce Mowbray: Good day, Yaku and Storm.
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Bruce
    Yakuzza Lethecus: harmful is everything that keeps we thinking in the same way as yesterday
    Yakuzza Lethecus: chains of grief
    Yakuzza Lethecus: have you ever heard me complaining about not attending college :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean i think of that much more often then i speak about it
    Yakuzza Lethecus: still ppl simply say ,,just do it" then i already wasted years of my live in redoing classes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and a friend of mine dropped out of college and he was always even bettern then me, so ppl tell me ,,you didn´t try" but i see that i lost years
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Pema.
    Storm Nordwind: However - I still think it's rather beneficial to keep driving safely. The habit of driving on the same side of the road as others and driving defensively seems worthwhile not dropping to me!
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Pema!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey pema
    Pema Pera: Hi Storm, Bruce, Yaku!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean right now i just try to see, and stay connected with idea´s
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no matter what
    Pema Pera: (I won't be able to stay long, it being 11 pm here, but just wanted to say hi!)
    Pema Pera: ((and don't let me interrupt))
    Storm Nordwind: You're always welcome Pema, even for short durations :)
    Bruce Mowbray: So, Storm and Yaku were discussing "beneficial" and "Harmful" habits....?
    Bruce Mowbray: and how to tell which is which. . . ?
    Storm Nordwind: Yes.
    Storm Nordwind: Which to drop
    Storm Nordwind: and when
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, I have a few "rules of thumb" for that. . . .
    Storm Nordwind: please share! :)
    Pema Pera: (just read the chat so far that Storm presented me)
    Bruce Mowbray: one involves whether I can "integrate" that habit into the rest of my life.
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Bruce Mowbray: without upsetting the balance and/or the linkage with other things that I do.

    Yaku's story continues.

    Bruce Mowbray: ... but back to Yaku's studies...
    Pema Pera: Thanks, Yaku, for sharing your feelings about your studies, and what you would have liked to do -- how do you feel about that now?
    Pema Pera: (sorry Bruce, didn't mean to interrupt, but saw that Yaku was also left dangling)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: oh, it´s a general thing
    Bruce Mowbray: no problem. . . I just got here and am trying to understand . . .
    Pema Pera: (perhaps we can merge both strands :-)
    Pema Pera: you talked about losing years -- how do you feel about that now?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, it´s just about the fact that i didn´t attend college and the some thoughts concerning not doing it
    Yakuzza Lethecus: what i shoud drop and the meaning of identifying negative habits to drop
    Yakuzza Lethecus: dropping is for me about general habits not about thoughts in the moment
    Yakuzza Lethecus: actually also about thoughts in a specific moment
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean when i think of how i engage new subjects then i see that i have a lot of triggers that are keeping me stuck in habitual chains of thought
    Yakuzza Lethecus: mostly not constructive
    Pema Pera: as for the actual situation -- would you like to go back to college, if I may ask? Sorry, it is hard for me to talk in generalities -- much easier to have a concrete case in front of us.,
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no it´s generally about what i am capable to do
    Yakuzza Lethecus: what´s the right environment
    Yakuzza Lethecus: what´s going to shift my perception
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s not about degree´s it´s also about connectedness and intelligibility and the question if i am what i am or if i am where and with who i am
    Bruce Mowbray: hello, eos.
    Pema Pera: that's a large complex of questions and concerns, Yaku . . . in one way or another something all of us are struggling with, I'm sure
    Pema Pera: Hi Eos!
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pema Storm Bruce Yakuzza
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi eos
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Eos!
    Pema Pera: Is there one particular question that you could start with, Yaku? Rather than trying to confront it all at the same time?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no, actually not i don´t know where to start, it personal it needs experimentation
    Pema Pera: perhaps you can find one small part, to focus on first . . . . like debugging a computer program, something that Eos and I talked about recently -- instead of trying to rewirte the whole program, see whether there is one particular line that you could improve

    Dropping feeling stuck.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: arg, i just got here from dropping and now i get into a void of thoughts and that is a negative habit
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i get stuck
    Eos Amaterasu: I'm all for keepin' on dropping
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: including the feeling of being hopelessly stuck!
    Pema Pera: and smiling about that feeling too :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: lol, exactly :)


    Pema Pera: giving yourself some slack
    Bruce Mowbray: gentleness and compassion for your process. . . and joy.
    Storm Nordwind: Compassion begins at home :)
    Bruce Mowbray: indeed it does -- and it does not need to be specific.
    Pema Pera: coming back to Bruce's Rule of Thumb: [7:09] Bruce Mowbray: one involves whether I can "integrate" that habit into the rest of my life.
    Bruce Mowbray: sometimes just being the compassion - for all of Being - is what clears me.
    Bruce Mowbray: that's also a way of integrating.
    Eos Amaterasu: just being able to tolerate myself is the first step, and then being very inclusive about that
    Eos Amaterasu: tolerating the uncertainty of this conversation
    Pema Pera: aka letting yourself be seen :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: yeah, that allowing of yourself directly allows being
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Eos, if one thinks of one's self as the hub of the wheel -- and letting that be seen -- and letting that hub expand to include all of the spokes and the rim of all Being. . . But first start at home with the hub. . . just a tiny bit of a start.
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: no need to control anything.
    Pema Pera: nice image, Bruce!


    Storm Nordwind: It seems like accepting one's own vulnerability and that of others. After all, walking around with heavy armor all the time is kind of restricting, and walking around looking at one's navel all the time results in a sore head and dented walls!
    Eos Amaterasu visualizes that...
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, Storm. . . and keeping one's options open -- Not thinking that some rigid position or some chaotic position is required.
    Pema Pera sneaks out to get some sleep, and waves at everybody . . . .
    Storm Nordwind: Bye Pema!
    Eos Amaterasu: ~~, Pema
    Pema Pera: bfn!


    Bruce Mowbray: always the balance. . . and the integration. and the sense of "enoughness"....
    Bruce Mowbray: by Pema. see you tomorrow!
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, maybe the immediate pain has enoughness
    Eos Amaterasu: or even the "void of thoughts"
    Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps the flip-side of "being hopelessly stuck" is seeing that your have "enough" right in that moment.
    Bruce Mowbray: you have.
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, that there's no escape from the stuckness, which means also there's no suckness,....
    Eos Amaterasu: *stuckness
    Eos Amaterasu: ha ha
    Eos Amaterasu: yippee!
    Eos Amaterasu: Being did that, not me :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: actually i think i have enough in the moment, the only thing i am grasping for is to be able to communicate what i percieve
    Yakuzza Lethecus: still i feel that i disable myself somehow
    Yakuzza Lethecus: even talking about stuckness is a routine
    Yakuzza Lethecus: even my thoughts concerning the 9 seconds gain habituallity
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i might look at my finger every time
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i almost never see really new things when i try to see what´s around me


    Eos Amaterasu: nothing works forever
    Eos Amaterasu: which feels like a desert
    Eos Amaterasu: until....
    Eos Amaterasu: but we are here in this oasis
    Yakuzza Lethecus: actually here it´s fine to verbalize these things
    Yakuzza Lethecus: which is also quiet unique since the thoughts are unelaborated and the subject needs nurturing
    Eos Amaterasu loves "quiet unique"....
    Eos Amaterasu: being keeps nurturing
    Eos Amaterasu: this is indeed a unique kind of oasis
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, Yaku, this "oasis" is safe. Itis also a place where one can find new metaphors (mind maps) for viewing what seems to have become satle through habituation.
    Bruce Mowbray: become stale through habits...
    Storm Nordwind: Can one become one's own oasis?
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, for periods of time, I think one can find oases within oneself.
    Eos Amaterasu: or in whatever the world is opening up
    Eos Amaterasu: that's an interesting play
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the fact is that i am actually allowing myself to grasp towards the abiltiy to communicate my fears and stucknesses
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean that can in fact be irrational things that i don´t think of math when i complain about it
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t think about drivatives when i complain about calculus
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am not thinking about z80 machine code when i complain about assembler
    Yakuzza Lethecus: to see what´s actually part of my negative chains when i have em
    Bruce Mowbray: For myself, even if the world is a SPECTACULAR display of wonders, I will not be able to see that unless there is some "opening" in me through which to see and to receive that wonder.
    Bruce Mowbray: The work I do is always on myself - not on the world.
    Storm Nordwind: What else can one influence? :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: trigger for my are of course not the triggers for someone else
    Eos Amaterasu: the buck starts here
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean even mentioning this is unconstructive for me
    Bruce Mowbray: That's right, Yaku, but I think you might be amazed at how similar your fears are to those of others.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: because it´s part of my negative chains in which i circle day by day
    Bruce Mowbray: and also, I think you do an excellent job of communicating what is going on with you.

    Lesson from a nightmare.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: dropping means breaking chains
    Eos Amaterasu: feel the energy of the chains... if there's something very threatened, there's something very alive...
    Storm Nordwind: No Yaku. I don't believe that dropping means breaking chains. To me it would mean seeing the chains for what they really are - and are not - and how similar they are to others (as Bruce said), and seeing their relative unimportance to other things.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: oh, the actual question for me is if i am acceping what´s there and what am i allow to grasp for
    Eos Amaterasu: it's like the story of the child, cornered by the monster who had been persuing her for years in nightmares, finally asking the monster, "why are you doing this to me?", and the monster says, "how would I know? It's your dream"
    Storm Nordwind: Brilliant Eos!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: actually i think that´s correct :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I also experience "chains of negative stuckness," Yaku, and is helps [me] if I send out compassionate energy to everyone in the world who might also feel "stuck" at that moment.

    Different parts of the world.

    Eos Amaterasu: i think the other part of this place being an oasis is the sense of you all here being in different parts of the world as well :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: I always think of Yakuzza in his little village....
    Eos Amaterasu: in a huge valley
    Bruce Mowbray: This is a version of "Tonglen," and I often use it to transcend feelings of negative stuckness.
    Storm Nordwind: Metta and Tonglen are wonderfully powerful
    Bruce Mowbray: yes -- indeed, Storm.
    Bruce Mowbray: Tonglen and Metta never fail to balance me out. . . and also to enable me to sleep when I am stuck in anxiety.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: actually it´s tricky since i never know what i should really say, i mean my thoughts are basic and kinda childish in some parts
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i only see that in the right environment i get more input and i learn implicitly
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i feel with the right ppl i implicilty learn better to communicate
    Yakuzza Lethecus: why can´t i create such an environment in rl
    Eos Amaterasu: maybe geolocation will help :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the issue is that i became who i am not thinking on how i became i always thought ,,i am"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: right now i always think ,,i am you"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: with nearly everyone i engage
    Yakuzza Lethecus: we are what we are interacting with and what should i accept
    Yakuzza Lethecus: what should i think when somebody tells ,,be who you are"
    Eos Amaterasu: hmm, yes, not be who you you think you are

    Cameras and a sense of perspective.

    Storm Nordwind: Regarding creating the environment in RL, I often remind myself of a friend's dictum: "Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self esteem, first make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by idiots."
    Eos Amaterasu: hmm
    Storm Nordwind: Not very compassionate, I know, but a fun sense of perspective :)
    Eos Amaterasu: perspective is interesting approach to this
    Eos Amaterasu: just like here in SL there's our camera perspective
    Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps "who you are" at the moment is someone who is obsessed with trying to be what others want him to be. . . and What if you simply let yourself "be" that for amoment (fully accepting your need to be seen)?
    Eos Amaterasu: "hold yourself in your highest intention", for example, is one guideline to personal warriorship
    Eos Amaterasu: and that highest intention comes from....
    Eos Amaterasu: maybe that's it, you just open up to it coming
    Storm Nordwind: Where your camera looks from determines how big things look in relation to each other :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: by now i know that it would have been different
    Yakuzza Lethecus: my simple example but it´s also not valid for everyone is of course english, i hated english and had to redo a full year because of english and german in middleschool i never had help in the subjects at home by the time i didn´t think much about it it thought i am just bad in languages i didn´t think that with the right input and environment it would have been different
    Yakuzza Lethecus: still what prevented me from attending college was math and the impression that i also had to redo a year because of math and electrical engineering in a technical highschool so i still wonder how to create a right environment with the right input, i see that i can learn things i didn´t thought i can learn but i can´t just be in the moment i have triggers and behave the same all the time
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so in the end i did a regular job training and work since then...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: still griefing and thinking on how to change, but also the thinking on how to change became habitually :P especailly the complaining part :P
    Eos Amaterasu suspects the kind of thing we're doing here is more the university of the future (very near future) than the current brick builds in RL
    Eos Amaterasu: (sorry I have to leave - thanks for the great conversation)
    Storm Nordwind: Bye for now!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care eos
    Bruce Mowbray: Yaku -- I very much admire your sharing here. Please continue.
    Bruce Mowbray: I am sorry that I must be off to RL duties now.
    Bruce Mowbray: May you have a great day.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: pet your dog for me :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I look forward to see you both later.
    Bruce Mowbray: I shall give Bear Dog a SPECIAL hug just for you, Yaku!
    Storm Nordwind waves

    The good fortune of opportunities to practice communicating.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, complaining doesn´t help, i mean i have these things on my mind ever since i joined sl
    Yakuzza Lethecus: finding the right groups,environments
    Yakuzza Lethecus: how to other ppl communciate
    Yakuzza Lethecus: storm the fearless
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Yakuzza Lethecus: how to ppl talk,present,communicate like in relam or the other presentations
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i attend everything
    Storm Nordwind: You have to bear in mind that, before moving to the US, communication was my job as a trainer and coach. So I have a bit of practice! ;)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i thought ur a teacher
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, it´s part of teaching
    Storm Nordwind: Yes. Just different words. I was training manager of a software company
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i kinda thought you as a ,,frontal classroom teacher"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Storm Nordwind: So yes I was in front in classrooms :)
    Storm Nordwind: And in the evening I would do presentations or tell stories for people
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i only have middle/highschool teacher stereotypes :)
    Storm Nordwind: Ah... that's rather distant to what I did!
    Storm Nordwind: The difference is this. Those teachers had to teach people who didn't want to be there. I taught people who did want to be there!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, that´s propably adult education
    Yakuzza Lethecus: that´s also a great sense in secondlife
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the ppl just come because they are curious and have a free will to do so
    Yakuzza Lethecus: anyway, thx!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care
    Storm Nordwind: You too!

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