2010.08.26 13:00 - (lucid) dream

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    Lia Rikugun: hello hana
    Hana Furlough: Hi Lia
    Lia Rikugun: how are you doind?
    Hana Furlough: I'm all right
    Hana Furlough: how are you today?
    Lia Rikugun: hm tired somehow :)
    Hana Furlough: oh yeah? did you work today?
    Lia Rikugun: yes yes


    I had experienced a lucid dream a few days before and was wondering if Hana had had a similar experience

    Lia Rikugun: I have a question
    Lia Rikugun: did you ever have a lucid dream?
    Hana Furlough: you mean when i was awake?
    Lia Rikugun: realizing that you dream while dreaming
    Hana Furlough: yes a couple of times
    Hana Furlough: have you?
    Lia Rikugun: ah interesting
    Lia Rikugun: I am reading this book about lucid dreaming right now
    Lia Rikugun: and I had one after starting
    Hana Furlough: oh wow!
    Lia Rikugun: but I woke up very quickly after realizing
    Lia Rikugun: so now i am always curious before i go to bed
    Lia Rikugun: will i be lucid tonight?
    Hana Furlough: wow
    Hana Furlough: what was it like?
    Lia Rikugun: it was funny
    Lia Rikugun: I was in Hamburg in germany
    Lia Rikugun: (in the dream)
    Lia Rikugun: the whole city had higher water
    Lia Rikugun: so a small flood but not dangerous
    Lia Rikugun: and then I saw a collegue from work
    Lia Rikugun: and then another
    Lia Rikugun: and more and more
    Lia Rikugun: and at some point i told myself, wait a minute
    Lia Rikugun: this cant be true
    Lia Rikugun: this is when I realized I was dreaming
    Lia Rikugun: there were two people in a car or something and i asked one " who he was"
    Lia Rikugun: and then somehow i woke up very quickly
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: hello bruce
    Lia Rikugun: we are talking about lucis dreams
    Lia Rikugun: lucid
    Hana Furlough: greetings, bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Lia and Hana.
    Lia Rikugun: (sorry i talked too much)
    Bruce Mowbray: please continue.
    Hana Furlough: not at all
    Hana Furlough: so it was the uncanny presence of your coworkers that made you realize you were dreaming?
    Lia Rikugun: uncanny presence
    Lia Rikugun: i dont know
    Lia Rikugun: i knew i was not there with work, so it was too much of a coincidence that somehow everybody of my coworkers were there too
    Lia Rikugun: so this is how i knew i was dreaming
    Lia Rikugun: bruce did you have lucid dreams?
    Bruce Mowbray: If I understand what "lucid dreaming" means (basically that you are fully aware that you're dreaming), then yes, I sometimes have them.
    Lia Rikugun: hello liza
    Liza Deischer: hi all :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Liza.
    Lia Rikugun: we are talking about lucid dreams liza
    Hana Furlough: Hello Liza
    Bruce Mowbray: am I right with my definition?
    Liza Deischer: ok
    Lia Rikugun: this is how I understood it :)

    How can we "make sure" to have a lucid dream? What do I need to do for it?

    Lia Rikugun: I am just wondering what it might mean
    Lia Rikugun: and when is it easier to have a lucid dream and when not
    Lia Rikugun: sometimes i feel if i am trying to remember a dream
    Lia Rikugun: that it is all there just on a different level of awareneess, i just need to click a certain button and then I can remember everything, but somehow i dont always find this button
    Hana Furlough: yes it is strange how memories of dreams dribble back long after waking


    Bruce tells us about his experience with lucid dreams and that not being heroic will help him remember, he has to promise not to control anything

    Bruce Mowbray: I have a rather strange relationship to my dream "state" . . .
    Lia Rikugun: in what sense bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: If I want to remember the dream, I sort of have to make a "deal" not to be heroic . . .
    Lia Rikugun: i dont understand?
    Lia Rikugun: during the dream you are not heroic?
    Bruce Mowbray: The dream comes to me as a sort of "gift" -- not something for me to overwhelm with my own "heroics"...
    Lia Rikugun: ah ok
    Bruce Mowbray: So, lucid dreaming is only possible for me if I promise not to be the hero in my own dream.
    Lia Rikugun: is this before you go to bed?
    Hana Furlough: that's realy nice, bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: N, actually during the dram I have to make the promise...
    Bruce Mowbray: dream.
    Liza Deischer: lucid dreaming is something different then remembering a dream, isn't it?
    Hana Furlough: we should all be making that promise in daily life
    Lia Rikugun: bruce how do you make that promise if you are not yet aware?
    Liza Deischer: (sorry, didn't hear the first bell)
    Lia Rikugun: licid dreaming is being aware that you dream while dreaming liza
    Bruce Mowbray: No problem, Liza.
    Liza Deischer: but yes I agree Hana
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Lia Rikugun: hello yaku we are talking about lucid dreaming
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that's how I understand "lucid dreaming," also.
    Liza Deischer: hi Yaku :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Yaku!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, i am not that much of a lucid dreamer sadly
    Hana Furlough: Hi Yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i should write a dream diary
    Liza Deischer: yes, ok, then we are talking about the same thing :)
    Lia Rikugun: bruce i didnt understand how you make that promise, can you say more please?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i rarely dream and conciously
    Bruce Mowbray: OK, sure. If it is a lucid dream, then I am aware that I'm dreaming.
    Lia Rikugun: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: If in that dream, there are "problematic" scenes going on -- ones that I might be able to "win" in -- through some sort of heroic behavior...
    Bruce Mowbray: then I have to "promise" not to be the hero -- Just to see the material as a "gift" to me awareness.
    Bruce Mowbray: my awareness.
    Lia Rikugun: otherwise you loose the lucidity?
    Bruce Mowbray: Here are all these pieces and their relationships.... that this dream is presenting to you as a gift. . .
    Lia Rikugun: hello adoro
    Bruce Mowbray: no DON'T get in there and mess around with our gift by trying to be a hero!
    adoro Rhapsody: hello all
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, adoro!
    Liza Deischer: hi Adoro
    Hana Furlough: what happens then, bruce? do you become a bystander?
    Hana Furlough: Hello Adoro
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey adoro
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes -- absolutely a bystander - and a grateful one, too.
    Lia Rikugun: wow it is fascintaing I want to try out more, am curious if I when I will have a lucid dream again
    Hana Furlough: really? so you don't participate at all?
    Lia Rikugun: (we are talking about lucid dreams adoro)
    Bruce Mowbray: I might be one of the characters in the dream -- In fact, I usually am one of the characters.
    Bruce Mowbray: But I have to promise not to CONTROL everything by intervening in some heroic way.
    Hana Furlough: but what happens to the action after you stop intervening?
    Hana Furlough: what is the outcome?
    Bruce Mowbray: just "see" everything for what it is.
    Bruce Mowbray: It's like watching a movie -- you don't have any control over the outcome. This is the only way I can do "lucid dreaming."
    Hana Furlough: interesting
    Hana Furlough: does it have a happy ending?
    Bruce Mowbray: sometimes -- sometimes not.
    adoro Rhapsody: does it have a happy beginning ?
    Liza Deischer: in buddhism there is talking about being able to participate in a dream
    Hana Furlough: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: We were talking about dreaming in general, then lucid dreaming in particular -- so I just offered that I have to make a "promise" not to interfere if I'm going to have a lucid dream.


    Is it possible to meet a friend in a dream?

    Lia Rikugun: i would liek to tr that, meet my friends in a dream :)
    Liza Deischer: but I don't think that is the same thing as trying to control it
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Lia Rikugun: i met my mother once in a dream :)
    Lia Rikugun: it felt really true
    Bruce Mowbray: say more, please, Lia.
    Liza Deischer: she is still alive Lia?
    Lia Rikugun: no
    Lia Rikugun: but it was very intense, and she didnt look like her
    Lia Rikugun: but it was her
    Lia Rikugun: haha, well i dont know
    Lia Rikugun: but i know
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Liza Deischer: I say a lot of bright blue around me :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Lia Rikugun: this is bruces t-shirt :)
    Liza Deischer: ah, ok
    Bruce Mowbray: [I make peace shirts and give then away to anyone who wants them.]
    adoro Rhapsody: we got it from Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: But back to Lia's dream about her mother.
    adoro Rhapsody: hi ewan
    Liza Deischer: hi Ewan
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Ewan!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ewan
    Lia Rikugun: hello ewan
    Hana Furlough: Hey Ewan
    Ewan Bonham: Hi folks!
    Lia Rikugun: we talked about dreaming and lucid dreams
    Lia Rikugun: and meeting people in your dreams :)


    Is there an ethical component in the dream for the person who dreamed it?

    Bruce Mowbray: Do dreams have an ethical component -- for the dreamer?
    Lia Rikugun: i dont understand 100%.
    Lia Rikugun: what do you mean bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: If you do things in your dreams, are there ethical considerations for you as the person who dreamed that?
    Lia Rikugun: thank you
    Hana Furlough: good question
    Liza Deischer: I think dreams show a part of you that isn't always a conscious part
    Bruce Mowbray: another way to state it might be, What is the relationship between the dreamer and her dream?
    Liza Deischer: but if we consider dreams to be 'ours', I guess there is, as in real life (or second)
    Bruce Mowbray: One reason (as I told you earlier) that I cannot be heroic in my dreams is that if I could act heroically, then I could also act demonically....
    Liza Deischer: I think that would be the first thing to establish yes
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, Liza.... so that's why I consider the dream to be a "gift" -- not something for me to messa round with.
    Liza Deischer: that sounds more like a choice then that it is about the dream itself
    Liza Deischer: hi Arch :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Arch!
    Lia Rikugun: hello arch
    Bruce Mowbray: A choice, yes... and what I consider to be an ethical choice.
    Lia Rikugun: we are talking about dreams and lucid dreams
    Liza Deischer: well I think that is a great attitude
    Liza Deischer: in general as Hana already pointed out
    Ewan Bonham: I agree it is a gift...we may interpret it symbollically..
    Bruce Mowbray: agrees with Ewan.


    Is the dream directing us? Does the dream guide us with real life choices? an inner knowing that comes out in a dream

    Ewan Bonham: But i look at it as a karmic guidance.
    Liza Deischer: but don't hang yourself up on your own choice
    Liza Deischer: sometimes you just need to act
    Ewan Bonham: The dream may direct us..
    Liza Deischer: in what way Ewan?
    Bruce Mowbray: welcome back, adoro.
    Liza Deischer: wb Ad
    Ewan Bonham: hi Adoro..
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Bruce Mowbray: Ewan, are you saying that the dream actually guides you with Real Life choices?
    Ewan Bonham: I think it can...
    Ewan Bonham: I think it is a sense of inner knowing that comes out in the dream when we are not so well 'defended' to our own truth..
    Bruce Mowbray: ahhhh! Excellent! THAT's exactly what I was trying to say when I explained that I could not be "hero" in my own dreams.
    Liza Deischer: in that case there is a direct relationship between dreamer and dream
    Bruce Mowbray: indeed there is.
    Ewan Bonham: liza, of yes..
    Liza Deischer: I have a feeling there are different layers
    Liza Deischer: things we find in our dreams about the previous days
    Liza Deischer: things that are mor subconscious
    Liza Deischer: and maybe even things that come from a sort of collective memory
    Hana Furlough: well said, Liza
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Ewan Bonham: Liza..yes i agree...there are just so many ways we communicate with ourselves and spirit..
    Ewan Bonham: the point for me, is to listen..
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-) [yes!]
    Liza Deischer: yes, Burces point also
    Liza Deischer: and I agree
    adoro Rhapsody: me too


    just listening to the dream may be more important than trying to interfere?

    Bruce Mowbray: If I htink of my dream as being like a friend telling me a story. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: then it is not "right" for me to interfere with his/her narrative. . .
    Lia Rikugun: so it doesnt matter if you ra elucid or not in a dream, just remembering is good :)
    Bruce Mowbray: It is more appropriate and ethical for me to let that story be told -- as my friend wants to tell it.
    Liza Deischer: I don't know about ethical
    Bruce Mowbray: Yeah -- 'theical' is probably a bit too strong.
    Liza Deischer: I think you can listen in many ways
    Bruce Mowbray: But at least "appropriate..."
    adoro Rhapsody: active or passive listening
    Liza Deischer: right
    Ewan Bonham: yes, actively LISTEN..
    Hana Furlough: i need to get back to work
    Hana Furlough: great discussion as always!
    Hana Furlough: bye for now!
    Lia Rikugun: have fun hana
    adoro Rhapsody: bye
    Bruce Mowbray: OK hana. Bye and thanks!
    Liza Deischer: ok Hana, bye :)
    adoro Rhapsody: dreamworks
    Ewan Bonham: Which is very different from interrupting the tale.
    Liza Deischer: (for the record)
    Ewan Bonham: bye Hana
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye hana
    Liza Deischer: yes but I think that to listen closely, you need to be albe to 'flow' with the tale
    Liza Deischer: 'tale'
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    Liza Deischer: not really sure what I mean by that :)
    adoro Rhapsody: thats a sign of interest in the other
    adoro Rhapsody: keeping up with his or her flow


    the respectful listener

    Bruce Mowbray: yes, adoro -- and a respectful listener.
    adoro Rhapsody: of course
    Ewan Bonham: yes, adoro
    Bruce Mowbray: May I give a personal example?
    Liza Deischer: sure
    Ewan Bonham: sure, bruce
    Lia Rikugun: yes please
    adoro Rhapsody: go on
    adoro Rhapsody: bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: At the last session here, Yaku was talking about his own life and giving specific details.
    Bruce Mowbray: The whole time I was listening to Yaku, I was also watching myself -- and watching how much I wanted to INTERFERE with Yaku's story. . .
    adoro Rhapsody: so ?
    Bruce Mowbray: to give advice or to offer help, etc.
    Bruce Mowbray: That, I think, would NOT be a respectful listener.
    adoro Rhapsody: i had the same in manny discussions
    Bruce Mowbray: UNTIL Yaku actually asked for that advice.
    Ewan Bonham: Yes..
    Bruce Mowbray: So. . . I feel it is the same with a dream.
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: respectful dreaming
    Ewan Bonham: i agree , Bruce..
    Bruce Mowbray: I respectfully LISTEN and WATCH -- and maybe later I can analyze it, symbolically, or whatever.
    Liza Deischer: That depends, is the advice interfering with the flow or not
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    Liza Deischer: maybe even helping to get more clearity about the flow
    Ewan Bonham: And...the dream just happens...then i need to continue to listen to it play inside of me...like plying an mp3 again..
    adoro Rhapsody: do u add or break something to the flow
    Liza Deischer: I don't belief in just listening
    Liza Deischer: I do belief in 'active listening'
    Liza Deischer: but that is hard to describe
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    Ewan Bonham: yes, Liza
    Liza Deischer: not acting might be interfering too
    adoro Rhapsody: that is building a realtionship
    Liza Deischer: right Ad
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Alfred!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi alf
    Lia Rikugun: hello alfred
    Liza Deischer: hi Alf
    Alfred Kelberry sneaks in from the bushes
    adoro Rhapsody: hi alf
    Ewan Bonham: hi alf
    Alfred Kelberry: oi :)
    Lia Rikugun: what a ncute avatar
    Liza Deischer: you've been spotted though Alf :)
    Alfred Kelberry: thank you, lia :) i've always liked your cute tail :)
    Bruce Mowbray: It seems especially delicate when the only way I have of communicating is through chat. . . and there are time lapses, etc.
    Liza Deischer: that's true Bruce
    Lia Rikugun: (haha, I dont think I have it on right now :)
    Bruce Mowbray: So, I am especially concerned about the "ethical" issues of listening.
    Liza Deischer: sl sure has its limitations
    Alfred Kelberry: listening? are you talking bout 1984? :)
    Liza Deischer: no Alf
    adoro Rhapsody: and ethical is subjective
    Alfred Kelberry: um, ok
    Bruce Mowbray: mmmmm. . . . (not entirely sure that ethical is 'subjective'). . .
    adoro Rhapsody: or elative i mean
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, some tribes think it's ethical to eat humans
    adoro Rhapsody: relative
    Liza Deischer: I think everything is subjective
    Ewan Bonham: Perhaps respectful listening
    Lia Rikugun: (sorry will go to bed, my eyes are clsoing automatically.. was a very interesting session, thank you)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: anyone likes some soylent green ?
    Liza Deischer: bye Lia ;)
    adoro Rhapsody: dream well
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good night lia
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, Lia!
    adoro Rhapsody: lia
    Alfred Kelberry: night, lia :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Sleep well.
    Ewan Bonham: by lia
    Lia Rikugun: i hope some lucid dream ;)


    adoro Rhapsody: can lucid dreams be wet deams too ?
    Alfred Kelberry: i think an objective view is just like a norm. it's what considered right by majority.
    Bruce Mowbray: Ha ha!!
    adoro Rhapsody: sorry
    Bruce Mowbray: no problem, adoro -- That's a good question, actually.
    adoro Rhapsody: its not ethical
    Bruce Mowbray: The thing is, Alfred, I have strong ethical feelings about things that the majority has an opposite moral feeling about.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i also have to sleep
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
    Bruce Mowbray: OK, Yaku. Good night and sleep well.
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce :)
    adoro Rhapsody: night yak
    Ewan Bonham: Bye yak
    adoro Rhapsody: can we also out of the box dreaming , Alfred ?
    Alfred Kelberry: it just makes you a non-conformist :)
    adoro Rhapsody: the bravery of being out of range
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, indeed I am non-conformist -- but my ethical system is t=not that of the majority -- but it is still an ethic -- mine!
    adoro Rhapsody: by roger waters
    Bruce Mowbray: Pink Floyd?
    Alfred Kelberry: of course, a subjective ethics of yours :)
    adoro Rhapsody: we need that
    Bruce Mowbray: bye, Ewan!
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks.
    adoro Rhapsody: bye
    adoro Rhapsody: ewan
    Ewan Bonham: Thank you folks, i will have to excuse myself...very interesting..:))
    Liza Deischer: bye Ewan
    Alfred Kelberry: ewan mcgregor
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Alfred Kelberry: he's cute
    Alfred Kelberry: i've seen the ghost writer recently
    Alfred Kelberry: a good movie
    adoro Rhapsody: interesting
    adoro Rhapsody: an u tell the essence of the film in one minute ?
    adoro Rhapsody: can
    Alfred Kelberry: what?
    adoro Rhapsody: of that film
    Alfred Kelberry: in fact, it was only 2 words
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: which 2 words ?
    Bruce Mowbray: A writer (Ewan McGregor) stumbles upon a long-hidden secret when he agrees to help former British Prime Minister Adam Lang (Pierce Brosnan) complete his memoirs on a remote island after the politician's assistant drowns in a mysterious accident. In director Roman Polanski's tense drama, the author realizes that his discovery threatens some very powerful people who will do anything to ensure that certain episodes from Lang's past remain buried.
    Alfred Kelberry: "a good movie"
    adoro Rhapsody: wonderful
    adoro Rhapsody: so now i dont have to go to see the film
    adoro Rhapsody: you explained the essence
    adoro Rhapsody: for me
    adoro Rhapsody: very clear
    adoro Rhapsody: and its published
    adoro Rhapsody: so i can read it over and over again
    adoro Rhapsody: wonderful
    Bruce Mowbray: Do you know about imdb.com adoro?
    adoro Rhapsody: not yet
    adoro Rhapsody: what is it ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, you can go there and find information about ANY movie -- all the actors, production details, plots, etc.
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Bruce Mowbray: Internet Movie Database
    Alfred Kelberry: um, i think i'll go see how ways of knowing is doing
    adoro Rhapsody: so i never have to go to any movie
    Bruce Mowbray: I could not understand what was happening in INCEPTION until I read about it in IMDB.
    adoro Rhapsody: bye alfred
    Bruce Mowbray: bye, Alfred.
    adoro Rhapsody: i see
    Bruce Mowbray: I didn't realize that Ways of Knowing was meeting through the summer.....(?)
    adoro Rhapsody: i got an idea when i saw the trailer on youtube
    adoro Rhapsody: of inception
    adoro Rhapsody: it was great
    Bruce Mowbray: yes. Actually, there are a lot of "moral" issues about dreaming presented in that movie.
    Bruce Mowbray: "ethical" issues, I would call them.
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: thats why the film is often referred to here
    adoro Rhapsody: in this sessions
    adoro Rhapsody: i think
    adoro Rhapsody: maybe
    adoro Rhapsody: but its interesting
    Bruce Mowbray: Mmmm... not sure. There is a lot of "consciousness" work in the movie -- and some of it seems to be a bit "Buddhist" -- and maybe that's why it is mentioned here.
    Liza Deischer: goin guys
    Liza Deischer: see you :)
    adoro Rhapsody: bye liz
    Bruce Mowbray: bye, Liza -- and Thanks!
    adoro Rhapsody: taylor
    adoro Rhapsody: thnx
    Bruce Mowbray: Do ethical questions sometimes come up in your IT security work adoro?
    adoro Rhapsody: yes often
    adoro Rhapsody: keeping balance between user and provider
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm sure.
    adoro Rhapsody: and government and citisan
    adoro Rhapsody: citizen
    adoro Rhapsody: in privacy questions
    Bruce Mowbray: Recently, as I am sure you know, there has been a big release of wiki-leaks material -- concerning the US military. . .
    adoro Rhapsody: CIA = confidentialy, Integrity and Availability
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    adoro Rhapsody: of information or data
    adoro Rhapsody: especial personel data
    adoro Rhapsody: of race, illness, and so on
    Bruce Mowbray: also, the matter of copyrighted material.
    adoro Rhapsody: beleif, religion etc
    adoro Rhapsody: yes also copyright or licences
    Bruce Mowbray: yep.
    adoro Rhapsody: and segregation of duties
    adoro Rhapsody: and two opposite principles:
    adoro Rhapsody: need to know
    adoro Rhapsody: or
    adoro Rhapsody: public, unless
    adoro Rhapsody: we in dept. of education promote freedom of information, so publis, unless
    adoro Rhapsody: but defence and justice promote : need to know
    adoro Rhapsody: but we are one government
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi there, new guardian!
    adoro Rhapsody: so i like to make a bridge between boths
    adoro Rhapsody: for ythe one citizen
    Bruce Mowbray: For me, the moral precept "Do no harm" comes into the play . . .
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    adoro Rhapsody: its in all beliefs the main rule
    adoro Rhapsody: hi aph
    Bruce Mowbray: But how about this: Say I want to download a movie that I would NEVER buy - - -
    Aphrodite Macbain: hi
    Bruce Mowbray: and I get a bit torrent and download it (like through Pirate Bay).
    Bruce Mowbray: That is violating a law, but it is not "Harming" anyone.
    adoro Rhapsody: that can be in another business model
    adoro Rhapsody: just tax the use of internet
    adoro Rhapsody: and pay all producers
    adoro Rhapsody: or so
    adoro Rhapsody: just imagine
    Bruce Mowbray: mmmmmm. . . . What if the movie is pornographic -- and some folks don't wish to be taxed to promote porn....
    adoro Rhapsody: some ideas
    adoro Rhapsody: we dont need no mind control
    adoro Rhapsody: pink floyd
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm in agreement with you -- but the producers of the movies disagree.
    adoro Rhapsody: pornographic is respectless
    adoro Rhapsody: so no good practice
    adoro Rhapsody: but lust instead of love
    Bruce Mowbray: lacking respect -- OK, perhaps,. But there is an enormous appetite for it on the Internet. . .
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Bruce Mowbray: so how to regulate downloads. . . and still keep open the "freedom to know, " etc.
    adoro Rhapsody: ok thats a paradox
    adoro Rhapsody: we have to come out by balancing from a higher level
    adoro Rhapsody: maybe
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm not really talking about porn -- more about access to digital media on the Internet and how "Do no harm" comes into play.
    adoro Rhapsody: the harm is done while producing it not while watching it
    Bruce Mowbray: mmmm. There is another precept: "Do not steal."
    Bruce Mowbray: maybe that's the one that comes into play with downloading copyrighted material.
    adoro Rhapsody: thats the consequence of "ownwership"
    adoro Rhapsody: but sharing on internet is not losing the original
    adoro Rhapsody: sharing is multiplying
    Bruce Mowbray: I like that!
    adoro Rhapsody: downloading do u self
    adoro Rhapsody: its making your own copy, not stealing
    adoro Rhapsody: the owner keeps his copy
    Bruce Mowbray: I agree -- and I would not then go out and sell my copy.
    adoro Rhapsody: that depend of your business model
    Bruce Mowbray: (also depends on my ethical model, I think)
    adoro Rhapsody: u sell a copy nit the original
    adoro Rhapsody: not
    Bruce Mowbray: I would never do that.
    adoro Rhapsody: of course busines has ethical aspects
    Bruce Mowbray: It seems that morality and ethics has to run to catch up with technology.
    adoro Rhapsody: making profit ? for your self ?
    adoro Rhapsody: or for the community ?
    Bruce Mowbray: No profit for me. . . just enjoyment of the movie that I downloaded for free.
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: but u spend time and deliverd maybe your ptivate data
    adoro Rhapsody: private
    adoro Rhapsody: and google can do marketing with your searching data
    adoro Rhapsody: just for free ?
    Bruce Mowbray: mmmm. . . never thought of it that way before.
    adoro Rhapsody: almost nobody does
    adoro Rhapsody: but its not complete picture
    adoro Rhapsody: because we are impressed by the new possibilities
    Bruce Mowbray: well, sir, this has been an interesting session. I must get some supper now.
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: sir
    adoro Rhapsody: bye
    adoro Rhapsody: apatite !
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-) Bye -- See you again soon!
    adoro Rhapsody: apatite
    adoro Rhapsody: later
    adoro Rhapsody: namaste

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