2010.08.29 13:00 - meditation, moral and ethics

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bertram Jacobus. The comments are by Bertram Jacobus.

    Bertram Jacobus: hi wester
    Bertram Jacobus: hey sartre
    Sartre Placebo: hey guys
    Wester Kiranov: hi bert, hello sartre
    Sartre Placebo: hey everyone
    Bertram Jacobus: sartre, i see you only as a little cloud ... ;-)
    Sartre Placebo: a cloud as usually
    Sartre Placebo: hi aph
    Bertram Jacobus: autsch ;-)
    Wester Kiranov: hi aphrodite
    Bertram Jacobus: hi aph ;-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi all
    Sartre Placebo: hehe, ur learning japanese aph ?
    Sartre Placebo: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: he he
    Aphrodite Macbain: did you read the log from yesterday?
    Wester Kiranov: who's going to claim this session? I understand Maxine can't be here
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm still a newbie
    Bertram Jacobus: somebody will claim it i guess ;-)
    Sartre Placebo: i can´t since sartre isn´t in the group
    Aphrodite Macbain: Both of you have experience, no?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Where is Sartre?
    Wester Kiranov: I still haven't figured out how to get the time codes off the spare log
    Wester Kiranov: in beta
    Sartre Placebo: sartre is here, yaku is on thothica
    Wester Kiranov: and the normal e-mailed log is a bit iffy at the moment
    Aphrodite Macbain: can't see you SArtre, you're jsut a grey blob

    (i claimed the log)

    Wester Kiranov: ty bert
    Bertram Jacobus: yw wester
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bertram
    Bertram Jacobus: and all ;-)
    Wester Kiranov: hi liza
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Liza
    Sartre Placebo: hey liza
    Bertram Jacobus: hi liza :-)
    Liza Deischer: hi Wester, Bert, Aphro and little cloud Sartre
    Bertram Jacobus: hi eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bert :)
    Liza Deischer: hi Eliza
    Wester Kiranov: hi eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aphrodite.... is that a hoola hoop? hehe
    Aphrodite Macbain: Do you like the pot of yellow flowers I brought?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wester!
    Aphrodite Macbain: it's a school of yellow fishes!
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, very nice yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Liza
    Eliza Madrigal: ah.. now I see more clearly
    Eliza Madrigal: And Hi Sartre
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hey Liza and Eliza
    Wester Kiranov: ah, those are your flowers
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, I put them here a few hous ago. They're still here
    Liza Deischer: Storm hasn't been around for a long time
    Eliza Madrigal: Storm has been really busy, yes
    Eliza Madrigal: I've been working on making a tab especially for new guardians...
    Aphrodite Macbain: in RL?
    Aphrodite Macbain: what would the tab do?
    Eliza Madrigal: keeping it very basic. Maybe that will help
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Just give simplified instructions I hope
    Eliza Madrigal: no extras
    Aphrodite Macbain: Like a note card?
    Eliza Madrigal: then extras can be found once someone is very comfortable
    Wester Kiranov: your fish type along with you. they must be very intelligent :)
    Eliza Madrigal: something like that :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: It got a bit confusing this morning when everyone was contributing.
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah Wester
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: it will be a useful page after someone knows what to do and wants to refresh
    Aphrodite Macbain: Actually the snow snowed along with me but I put a stop to that
    Eliza Madrigal: but maybe not before that :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Stevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: Hi Aphrodite
    Eliza Madrigal: (this morning's session I mean, hopefully not the one I'm making now)
    Wester Kiranov: hi steve
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Steve :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hi steve
    Liza Deischer: hi steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello all
    Aphrodite Macbain: Steve do you play the digeridoo?
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, been looking at better ones recently, mine is bamboo
    Aphrodite Macbain: Love the sound it makes. A little spooky
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice you can buy them direct from Austrailia
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, it;s medtative in a techno kinda way
    Liza Deischer: and I think the breathing has a meditative effect on your body?
    stevenaia Michinaga: seems to drive my family a bit crazy, so I must be doing something right
    Aphrodite Macbain: certainly a calming effect
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Liza Deischer: hehe
    Wester Kiranov: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Are there dd groups that play together or it is a solo kind of thing?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I have not played with a group like a drum circle, but never felt good enought to even look
    Aphrodite Macbain: I had friend who played the fench hunting horn and whenever he travelled he would look up groups to play with
    Aphrodite Macbain: frnch
    Aphrodite Macbain: French!
    stevenaia Michinaga: my typing style is contacgious
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah Steve
    Aphrodite Macbain: my keyboard is on strike
    Aphrodite Macbain: pun intended
    Aphrodite Macbain: I would imagine that playing a musical instrument would be a form of meditation
    Liza Deischer: it can be yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: that timeless flow
    stevenaia Michinaga: I belive that just about anything you can focus on can be meditative
    Liza Deischer: depends I guess what you think meditation is
    Liza Deischer: right
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes - I find doing Tai Chi more walking a form of meditation
    Aphrodite Macbain: or walking
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    Liza Deischer: but making music is a pretty easy way to get the right focus, not having that makes playing difficult
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes. it would be best if you could play well, without engaging the thinking part of the rain
    Wester Kiranov: I guess whether something is mediative doesn't depend so much on what you do as on how you do it
    Aphrodite Macbain: brain
    Liza Deischer: yes Wester
    Aphrodite Macbain: like washing dishes can be meditative
    Eliza Madrigal: mmm, definitely
    Aphrodite Macbain: my mother used to call that "day dreaming"
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pila
    Wester Kiranov: I'm still working on that one :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hi pila
    Wester Kiranov: dishes
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila :)
    Pila Mulligan: greetings
    Wester Kiranov: hi pila
    Sartre Placebo: hi pila
    Liza Deischer: hi Pila
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Pila, nice to met you
    Pila Mulligan: hi Zen
    Aphrodite Macbain: meet
    Liza Deischer: hi Zen
    Wester Kiranov: hi zen
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Zen
    Zen Arado: Hi all
    Aphrodite Macbain: we're talking about meditating and its many forms
    Pila Mulligan: nice
    Zen Arado: good
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
    Eliza Madrigal: forgive me for zonking out here and there, am working on something but attentive here also
    stevenaia Michinaga: I often felt much of what I do at work is a meditation on creativity
    Aphrodite Macbain: I love it when people first appear wrapped in the primal grey mud of birthing and then slowly get washed by P@B clean clear spirit
    Liza Deischer: I guess daydreaming is a different kind of trade :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice, Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: similar to how I feel PaB is a very creative meditation
    Zen Arado: I saw a little video on creativity by John Cleese the other day
    Aphrodite Macbain: I will take this time to disappear back into te primordial grey of the universe
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
    Bertram Jacobus: hi qt
    Qt Core: hi all
    Pila Mulligan: bye Aphrodite, hi Qt
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello QT
    Wester Kiranov: bye aphrodite, hi qt
    Bertram Jacobus: bye aph
    Liza Deischer: bye Aphro
    Liza Deischer: hi QT
    Zen Arado: Bye Aphro, Hi Qt
    stevenaia Michinaga: FYI: I added another photo to this morning's log with all the balloons, near the end
    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for posting it Eliza
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/index.php?title=Chat_Logs/2010/08/2010.08.29_08:00_-_Guardian_Session:_Tips_for_New_Hosts%3F&action=submit&text=Chat%20Logs/2010/08/2010.08.29%2008:00%20-%20Guardian%20Session:%20Tips%20for%20New%20Hosts?&pageId=4664§ionId=
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2010/08/2010.08.29_08%3a00_-_Guardian_Session%3a_Tips_for_New_Hosts%3f
    stevenaia Michinaga: that may be better
    Eliza Madrigal: thanks so much for doing that Steve :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I took a picture of that, I thought, but couldn't find it
    Eliza Madrigal: I've been working on a really simple few pages for new guardians but I'm not sure if I've got all the technicalities right yet...
    Liza Deischer: ah QT found symmetry again :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt :)
    Eliza Madrigal: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/New_Guardian_Tutorials/How_To:_Posting_a_Chat_Log
    Qt Core: and freedom from the fishes too ;-) Hi Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: this is all the extras removed, basically
    Wester Kiranov: symmetry if you ignore our botanical friend
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Qt Core: are we so stressed we need chamomille ?
    Eliza Madrigal: I sure am...
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Wester Kiranov: maybe the plant is stressed
    Eliza Madrigal: needs to day dream
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Qt Core: stressed chamomille ... what they drink... human blood ? it would be fair ;-)
    Wester Kiranov: *grin*
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Wester Kiranov: no, it just came here to hear the soothing sound of our lovely voices
    Wester Kiranov: and now it's not in voice! hope it understands chat too
    stevenaia Michinaga: wonders if everything/anything can be done with meditative intent
    Eliza Madrigal: it will have to come back for the friday voice session...
    Zen Arado: does that 'Tag' function still work Eliza? I haven't been using it
    Liza Deischer: you can imagine any sound you want, coming with our voices :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, sure Zen
    Pila Mulligan believes everything/anything can be done with meditative intent
    Eliza Madrigal: I have to go.... sorry... ack
    Wester Kiranov: maybe it's hard to murder meditatiovely, for instance
    Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Eliza
    Zen Arado: ok bye Eliza
    Wester Kiranov: bye eliza
    Liza Deischer: bye Eliza (for the record)
    Qt Core: i think samurais do their killing in an almost meditative state
    Zen Arado: I think you would be fully in the moment of a murder though
    Liza Deischer: yes, everything can be used in a bad way
    Qt Core: the dark side of the Force...
    Qt Core: but then they weren'r doing evil things they were soldiers for their country
    Wester Kiranov: I suppose being meditative is not enough, in itself
    stevenaia Michinaga: unfortunate side of the coin
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Druth
    Liza Deischer: hi Druth
    Zen Arado: Hi Druth
    Pila Mulligan: yep, ethics are needed also
    Wester Kiranov: hi druth
    Bertram Jacobus: sry - i was quite distracted - am not at home - showed sl to friends and will leave now - may all beings be happy plz ! *wave* ...
    Pila Mulligan: hi Druth
    Pila Mulligan: bye Bertram
    Qt Core: bye bert
    Wester Kiranov: bye bert
    Zen Arado: bye Bert
    druth Vlodovic: cya bert
    Liza Deischer: to me that is a difficult question QT
    Liza Deischer: bye Bert :)
    Bertram Jacobus: tyty :-) bye
    Qt Core: yes, never an easy one, but even in a non clear way there is/should be a difference bwtween bad and evil
    stevenaia Michinaga: there is a clear difference depending which side of the coin you are standing on
    Liza Deischer: I'm not so sure
    Wester Kiranov: but ethics don't just materialize either. You get them from somewhere
    stevenaia Michinaga: its always the other side
    Liza Deischer: so it seems
    Pila Mulligan: we can usually distinguish between things we like and things we don't like
    Qt Core: yes, the pov is quite important here
    Pila Mulligan: the trick is to likt ethical things :)
    Qt Core: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must depart, thanks and see you soon
    Wester Kiranov: but even ethics isn't that clear-cut
    Qt Core: bye steve
    druth Vlodovic: bye steve
    Zen Arado: bye Steve
    Wester Kiranov: bye steve
    Liza Deischer: bye Steve (again for the record)
    Zen Arado: ethics is a big subject
    Liza Deischer: I agree
    druth Vlodovic: I like to break it down to as simple a cancept as possible, and then see if I can extrapolate my ethics
    Wester Kiranov: very big
    Liza Deischer: sounds like a usefull tool Druth
    Wester Kiranov: and how do you decide if you can extrapolate?
    Pila Mulligan: bye steve
    Liza Deischer: or usefull approach, I should say
    Wester Kiranov: hi sophia
    Zen Arado: it has its dangers
    druth Vlodovic: logic exercises, keeping in mind that logic chains can go anywhere if you don't control them
    Pila Mulligan: hi Sophia
    Qt Core: hi sophia
    druth Vlodovic: hey sophia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: waves to everyone
    Wester Kiranov: I think logic can be very dangerous in ethics
    Zen Arado: Hi Sharon :)
    Liza Deischer: hi Sophia
    Pila Mulligan: ethics seems to me to be a personal thing, as opposed to morality and laws that are more institutional things
    Zen Arado: there is a problem of 'Foundationalism'
    Wester Kiranov: and anyway, no logic system is complete, and all the ethically interesting cases are in that part :)
    Liza Deischer: and sometimes you need to make a choice between two bad things
    Zen Arado: thinking you have found a good starting point , but it may be dubious
    Liza Deischer: there is not always a good choice
    Wester Kiranov: good point zen
    Zen Arado: ther are no foundational assumptions that are valid really
    Zen Arado: because of impermanence
    druth Vlodovic: but with a simple starting point you can go back and compare your decision to it
    Wester Kiranov: It's not always that simple
    Zen Arado: ok but if your starting point is shaky the whole structure you build on is too
    Wester Kiranov: even when it's just the choice between two alternatives, the devil's in the details
    Zen Arado: Like Descartes 'I think therefore I am'
    Wester Kiranov: and then he deducts God within a page
    Zen Arado: yep
    Liza Deischer: right, there is nog clear right and wrong
    druth Vlodovic: I'd have to know God really really well before I'd consider putting him in as a moral starting point
    Qt Core: life and history would be boring if it was a clear cut
    Zen Arado: maybe Qt :)
    Zen Arado: if it was too logical
    Wester Kiranov: well, then you won't have to worry about boredom :)
    Zen Arado: thinks of Mr Spock for some reason
    Wester Kiranov: :)
    druth Vlodovic: "May you live in interesting times." isn't considered a blessing :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Wester Kiranov: I'm going to call it a day now. bye
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Wester :)
    Zen Arado: bye Wester
    Pila Mulligan: bye Wester
    druth Vlodovic: cya west
    Liza Deischer: bye Wester
    Qt Core: bye Wester
    Zen Arado: so..how should we decide what is ethical or not?
    Liza Deischer: somehow I don't like the word ethical
    Liza Deischer: it sounds almost objective, but isn't at all
    Zen Arado: right or wrong action?
    Zen Arado: yes agree Liza
    Pila Mulligan: well, if you suppose we have free will, we can probably decide however we wish
    Zen Arado: it makes you think of a 'system' of rules
    druth Vlodovic: I'd prefer it if it was objective
    Pila Mulligan: pure ethics need not be rule based
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Zen Arado: usually a formulated list though?
    Pila Mulligan: remember situational ethics?
    Qt Core: but then each one has his own set of values, imposed and/or choosen
    Zen Arado: but is that ethics?
    Pila Mulligan: sure
    Pila Mulligan: ethics is just a guide for conduct
    Liza Deischer: ah context, yest that is important
    Zen Arado: ideally we shouldn't need any rules or guidelines for how to behave
    Liza Deischer: what can be wrong one time, can be the right thing to do another time
    Zen Arado: agree Liza
    Zen Arado: but laws are derived from moral values
    Qt Core: it depends on the other options you have on each situation
    druth Vlodovic: we always have guidelines on how to behave, just we usually forgot where we got them
    Zen Arado: I think they are agreed upon guidelines by members of a society
    Liza Deischer: yes, but those internalized guidelines
    Zen Arado: we inculcate them into our children
    Liza Deischer: even harder to get to know them
    Pila Mulligan: morals and laws are social constructs Zen, kind of a design by committee thing
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Pila Mulligan: they can change easily too
    Zen Arado: yes I agree
    Liza Deischer: and to see how they work, in a good or not so good way
    Pila Mulligan: and are not really useful in many cases
    Zen Arado: oh yes - society ideas change
    druth Vlodovic: lol, I was just at the Ottawa "gay pride parade" today
    Zen Arado: thinks back to morals of the 60's - so different to now
    Zen Arado: exactly
    Zen Arado: you could get put in prison for gayness then
    Liza Deischer: to decide if she should do something or not, a friend of mine is not asking herself if it will be good or bad, but if it will be wholesome
    druth Vlodovic: how is wholesome defined?
    Zen Arado: ah - a good Buddhist perspective Liza?
    Liza Deischer: that it will contribute to a good structure
    Liza Deischer: it doesn't always means to be nice
    Qt Core: still a choice between good or bad, just another parameter for measuring goodness
    Zen Arado: yes - we each might have a different take on 'wholesomeness'
    Liza Deischer: sure, but one you ask yourself questions about
    Liza Deischer: not acting out of habit or acting out of rules
    Liza Deischer: sure Zen
    Liza Deischer: and maybe those rules fit the person
    Liza Deischer: because the person also is part of a context
    Liza Deischer: or I mean those looks on wholesomeness
    Zen Arado: moral values are designed to prevent us from harming others and ourselves aren't they?
    Liza Deischer: not always
    Zen Arado: basically
    druth Vlodovic: or to help the people in charge stay in charge
    Liza Deischer: it can also mean that somebody or a group wants to maintain their power
    druth Vlodovic: or to improve the luck of the community by manipulating the gods
    Zen Arado: hmmm...maybe...can you give me an example?
    Liza Deischer: well you gave one
    Pila Mulligan: we may be looking at 'actual' moral values versus imposed group moral values
    Liza Deischer: being gay is still an issue
    Liza Deischer: bring in so called christin values to the discussion
    Liza Deischer: might sound very moral
    druth Vlodovic: god didn't like it so it's immoral, if we annoy god he is mean to us
    Liza Deischer: right, but who is telling me what god means?
    Zen Arado: but are there 'actual' moral values Pil?
    Zen Arado: that is the question
    Pila Mulligan: maybe, maybe not -- I cannot say :)
    Pila Mulligan: many people believe there are, however, and that counts
    Zen Arado: if you believe they are dictated by God there are
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Liza Deischer: I'm not a big believer of moral standards if they have no bases
    Zen Arado: but even those are not detailed enough
    Pila Mulligan: living in the moment kind of contradicts following a predetermined rule
    Liza Deischer: To me morality is a human thing, more then a God-thing
    Zen Arado: but if they are only guidelines they are flexible to the situation
    Liza Deischer: right Pila
    Liza Deischer: and true Zen
    Pila Mulligan: yes, guidelines can help
    Zen Arado: as Liza said earlier there are times it would be moral to kill or lie etc
    Pila Mulligan: love is a good guidline
    Liza Deischer: hmmm okay, yes, like the ten commandments
    Zen Arado: yes Pila very true
    Zen Arado: and compassion
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: truth
    druth Vlodovic: I'd argue with the idea of basing a moral code on love, too unstable, hard to analyze
    Liza Deischer: thinking of it now, guidelines is actually a very nice word
    Pila Mulligan: maybe the person doing so would need to have an idea of what love means
    Zen Arado: most of these concepts are when you think about them:)
    Liza Deischer: (need a new keyboard :))
    Pila Mulligan is hoping the Hawaii team can win the Little League World Series Championship Game, even thuogh they are behind the Japan team now 2-1
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Liza Deischer: huh? :)
    Pila Mulligan: little league baseball
    Pila Mulligan: kids
    Liza Deischer: maybe analyzing isn't what we should be doing
    Zen Arado: agree Liza
    Liza Deischer: or not in a way to distilate objective rules
    Pila Mulligan: wu wei can be a form of ethical guidance
    Liza Deischer: right
    Zen Arado: when we meditate we can develop a steady mind that can 'see' the best thing to do instinctively
    Zen Arado: I think anyway
    Liza Deischer: I think so too
    Pila Mulligan: I agree Zen
    Pila Mulligan: it can be a help
    Liza Deischer: because you open up yourself and say: I wanna learn
    Zen Arado: our clinging greedy minds can blind us
    Liza Deischer: I wanna see what I am doing and see its effects
    Liza Deischer: right
    Zen Arado: yes openning is so important
    Liza Deischer: or what other people are doing
    Zen Arado: and realizing others are us
    Liza Deischer: yes, with an open mind
    Zen Arado: not separated from us
    Liza Deischer: well I don't feel that yet, but I guess you start questioning yourself about how you want to be treated
    Zen Arado: cos you have to distance before you can do something bad to others?
    Liza Deischer: but also learn that other people may need something different
    Zen Arado: like in wartime
    Zen Arado: yes - but tring to be open to that
    Liza Deischer: yes, I think so
    Liza Deischer: and somtimes that is the best choice to make
    Liza Deischer: getting really close to yourself, make asking such question very hard
    Zen Arado: usually simpler too
    Zen Arado: 'what a tangled web we weave......
    Pila Mulligan: being honest with yourself is a prerequisite to ethics
    Zen Arado: yes vey true
    Liza Deischer: you know there is this story of two American hopics in the war on Irak, that got a Irakeen soldier that was badly wounded and couldn't move, out of the fireline
    Zen Arado: listens
    Liza Deischer: at one moment they kill, another moment they rescue's an animies life puting there one lives on the line
    Zen Arado: war is so strange when you think about it
    Liza Deischer: my teacher made a bit of a joke saying that he only would have put some Om mani padme hums in :)
    Liza Deischer: yes killing and heroism are so close to each other then
    Liza Deischer: he meant that he was touched by what they did
    Zen Arado: in modern warfare the 'enemy' is getting less clearly defined
    druth Vlodovic: not really, just you have more chances for heroism when people are killing each other
    Zen Arado: and people realize the futility of it
    Liza Deischer: soon we sit behind a desk in the West steering airplanes without pilots
    Qt Core: do they, Zen ?
    Zen Arado: good point Druth
    Liza Deischer: that is true Druth, war make things more obvious
    Zen Arado: well - some anyway
    Zen Arado: but think back to WW1 for example - the entire population was very much behind the war
    Liza Deischer: and the war started because of a misunderstanding
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (slips away quietly _/!\_)
    Zen Arado: they sent pacifists a white feather for cowardice
    Zen Arado: bye Sharon
    Liza Deischer: says quietly bye :)
    Qt Core: bye sophia
    Pila Mulligan: bye Sharon
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye :))
    Zen Arado: 'when will it ever end?'
    Liza Deischer: but that was still a war where people fight each other, man to man
    Zen Arado: yes and millions died
    Zen Arado: such suffering
    Liza Deischer: yes, a really bad war
    Liza Deischer: and what do you do when there is somebody standing in front of you with a rival and a stilleto
    druth Vlodovic: meh, people like war because it simplifies things, us vs them etc
    Liza Deischer: that is for the ones that stay at home
    Zen Arado: yes - but not so easy to simplify wars now
    Liza Deischer: to Bush it was
    Zen Arado: he tried anyway
    Liza Deischer: but he wans't fighting
    Zen Arado: you have to force a false construction on the population
    druth Vlodovic: give a guy a gun and he can shoot his problems, that's why I think we need clearly defined base moral codes
    Zen Arado: but people not so easily fooled nowadays
    Liza Deischer: hmmm, not so sure
    Liza Deischer: but need to go
    Zen Arado: yes I have to go too
    Liza Deischer: thanks for the discussion :)
    druth Vlodovic: bye zen
    Qt Core: same here, bedtime approaching ;-)
    Liza Deischer: see you :)
    Zen Arado: can solve world moral problems some other time :)
    Liza Deischer: heheh
    Zen Arado: bye
    Qt Core: ;-) then we'll move on hunger
    Pila Mulligan: hmm, seems the session has ended Druth
    Pila Mulligan: bye for now :)
    druth Vlodovic: cya :)

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