2010.09.04 07:00 - "Karma versus Wu Wei" et al.

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bertram Jacobus. The comments are by Bertram Jacobus.

    Bertram Jacobus: heyy bruce ! ... :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Bert.
    Bertram Jacobus: how are you at this morning ? and what time is it where you are now ? :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: hello ewan ! ... ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: I am excellent here in Ohio USA -- I've just come back inside after trimming trees and pulling down vines - before breakfast.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Ewan.
    Bertram Jacobus: graet - and what´s the time now at your place bruce ?
    Ewan Bonham: Hi Bruce and Bert
    Bruce Mowbray: How are you folks, Ewan and Bert?
    Ewan Bonham: I am well..
    Bruce Mowbray: Time here is 10:04
    Bertram Jacobus: ah - i have a difficult time but also how the buddhists call it : "mixed karma" - so also there are some good points, thx for askin ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Have either of you claimed this session yet?
    Bertram Jacobus: i have to do it still ... ;-)
    Ewan Bonham: I have not
    Bruce Mowbray: OK -- I was going to request that you lower the fountain -- so I can see us better.
    Bruce Mowbray: "Mixed karma". . . .
    Bruce Mowbray listens intently for more.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes ! some good, some bad influences that means ...
    Ewan Bonham: isn't Karma a path?
    Bruce Mowbray: I understand. . . although not sure how one discerns between the two?
    Bruce Mowbray: Some consider it a path, Ewan.
    Bruce Mowbray: I usually think of it as "momentum."
    Bertram Jacobus: not neccessairily : it means action and reaction, related to our doing, that we earn what we seed ...
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, the classical usage means action and reaction.
    Bruce Mowbray: so "bad" stuff is a reaction to "bad action" -- according to that view and vice versa.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes !
    Bruce Mowbray: However. . . I choose to see it a bit differently.
    Bruce Mowbray ducks his head and sits on hands for a minute.
    Ewan Bonham: I see
    Bertram Jacobus: and as we all may experience life, there are nice and not so nice aspects around us - mixed
    Ewan Bonham: brb
    Bruce Mowbray: Two days ago, a woman ran a stop sigh and smashed into my car - causing over $3,000 damage. . . Would this be considered "not so nice"?
    Bruce Mowbray: sign.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes bruce, normally i would see that as a not so nice accident ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: So would that be HER karma for mine? -- or both?
    Bruce Mowbray: or mine.
    Bruce Mowbray: (Sorry, my fingers are not awake enough for typing well, yet).
    Bertram Jacobus: i would say it´s a kind of view too : you can see all under the karma aspect so to say - and then it´s your´s as well as her´s
    Bruce Mowbray: She was cited by the police and her insurance has to pay for everything - but her car was not damaged a bit...
    Bruce Mowbray: But -- it's such explanations that leave me thinking that "karma" doesn't work that way for me.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes : everybody has his position in all circumstances
    Bruce Mowbray: What works better is "no resistance" -- or honoring the incident itself as a presence. . . or Wu Wei, or some such response.
    Bertram Jacobus: why do you think that ?
    Bertram Jacobus: ah - let me read and think ... :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: I mean "what works better FOR ME" not necessarily for anyone else.
    Bertram Jacobus: "yes" : i can understand that very well - and a very interesting comparison , „karma versus wu wei“ ! :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Where I really have "trouble" with "Karma" is when it is used to try to explain the misfortune of folks like mental retardation, or childhood diseases that kill children or cripple them at a very early age, etc.
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm remembering that someone came to Jesus once and asked, "Who sinned that this man was born blind? His parents?" == as if the sins of his parents would cause their son to be blind.
    Bertram Jacobus: i see. but : i think it´s also meant to become able to accept such difficulties and others, not in a bad, but in a good way ! and it also strenghtens aspects like taking response and becoming active, seeing sense and such
    Bruce Mowbray: and Jesus answered, "Neither sinned. . . but it is so the glory of God may be shown..." and then he healed the man's blindness.
    Ewan Bonham: Hi Aphro
    Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Aph!
    Bertram Jacobus: hey aph ! ... :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Ewan, Bertram, Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Can you share some early morning thoughts about "Karma" with us, Aph?
    Bertram Jacobus: (here, they would be afternoon thoughts) (!) ;-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: In what sense?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Karma
    Aphrodite Macbain: whether it exists?
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, whether there is such a thing - and if so, what it is.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I don't know - but I feel it might exist.
    Bruce Mowbray: how it works, what can be done about it, etc.
    Bruce Mowbray: Is it "cause and effect"?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think that what one does makes some kind of difference whether we know it or not
    Aphrodite Macbain: If one does something for the good, the efect will most likely be a good one
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Yaku.
    Bertram Jacobus: is it possible not to know that ?
    Bertram Jacobus: the differences i mean
    Bertram Jacobus: hey yaku ! :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: It also has an effect on us - by doing something with good intentions, we too change
    Ewan Bonham: Hi Yak
    Aphrodite Macbain: Good day Yaku!
    Ewan Bonham: Yes, for me, i look at Karma as a present moment awareness- not so much in the past..
    Aphrodite Macbain: or am I being to circumspect. (I haven't consumed my first cup of cofffee yet kep in mind)
    Bruce Mowbray has just been reminded by Aph to get himself some coffee.
    Aphrodite Macbain: I am not sure whether one can accumulate karma like money however
    Ewan Bonham: ã‹¡ Aphro.
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Not bad for three sips eh?
    Bertram Jacobus: hello adams ! :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi adams
    Ewan Bonham: Hi Adams
    Bertram Jacobus: some say only enlightened beings would understand karma totally ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: I like the fact that a concept of karma has been created. It implies that everything we do makes a difference. We are all responsible for our thoughts and actions
    Adams Rubble: Hello Everyone :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Adams
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Adams!
    Bertram Jacobus: yes : responsibility - i mentioned already before you were here aph - is one of the points i appreciate also regarding to the karma concept. but also acceptance and ability to act.
    Bruce Mowbray: I prefer responsibility for our actions in this moment -- not out of fear for future "cosmis justice" - whether happy or not.
    Bruce Mowbray: Like Ewan said, a "present event."
    Aphrodite Macbain: BTW I tried Tonglen yesterday to relieve my sadness about my friend who is dying of cancer.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Didn't help
    Bertram Jacobus: but don´t you think, bruce, that our actions have consequences ? like for example - make us more blind or aware ?
    Adams Rubble squeezes Aphrodite's hand
    Ewan Bonham: I think, Bert our actions affect our minds and dispositions.
    Bertram Jacobus: and aph : i consider tonglen as a very difficult practise (!) and would prefere therefore sending compassion for example when i feel not able to do more ...
    Ewan Bonham: In a feedback loop, that affects our outsider reactions to us.
    Bertram Jacobus: i agree ewan.
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes? but sending compassion can be equally hard, no?
    Bruce Mowbray wants to respond to everyone, but will first offer this information on "Tonglen":
    Bruce Mowbray: http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/tonglen1.php
    Aphrodite Macbain: and not felt by the receiver of the compassion
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes I read that. And heard her speak about it.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I definitely think our thoughts and actions have consequences.
    Ewan Bonham: Aphro, I believe whatever i place in my mind is received at some subtle level by others
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t think so - or not to me aph , because : i then "have not to" take also the difficulties from others ... hm - sry for my weakness ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: Tonglen has a greater benefit to us than to the receiver
    Bruce Mowbray agrees with Ewan -- and will add, also received by the universe.
    Ewan Bonham: Yes, bruce
    Aphrodite Macbain: Does anyone know where the concept of Karma came from?
    Bertram Jacobus: that´s it ! : every action causes a reaction and everything is considered as being linked with everything - so your helping thoughts and feelings - would also help him aph. that´s how i think about that - makes that a bit sense ?
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes it makes sense. But the action is to me rather to my friend. I benefit by feeling that I can do something about it. She doesn't
    Bertram Jacobus: the oldest sources i know karma from, is hinduism ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes?
    Aphrodite Macbain: what sources? texts?
    Bertram Jacobus: how can you be sure it doesn´t help her aph ? ...
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. i don´t know exactly, but may be the upanishads or the bhagavad gita as well ...
    Bruce Mowbray: Don't know if this is what you are looking for but here's a classical explanation:
    Bruce Mowbray: http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm
    Bertram Jacobus: but i´m sure : is part of hinduism
    Aphrodite Macbain: I can't. But both Pema and the Dalai Lama said the main benefit of Tonglen is to the one who performs it
    Bertram Jacobus: and then, buddhism for sure, too. but that is younger
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: and another - concerning Hinduism:
    Bruce Mowbray: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma
    Aphrodite Macbain: does it mention Karma Bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: but -- more interesting - I feel - is how Karma works in your own life. . .
    Aphrodite Macbain: oops of course it does. sorry
    Adams Rubble: we feel bad because there is not much we can do to prevent the course of events but we do have the possibility of reminding the person that firends are nearby
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, both links talk a great deal about Karma -- the classical and tradition view of it.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. but then it´s -the main benefit- which says implicite that there is also benefit for the other(s) (!) ...
    Adams Rubble: that the person is not abandoned
    Adams Rubble: maybe that is enough
    Bruce Mowbray: wonderful point, Adams.
    Ewan Bonham: Aphro- I think that is one tremendous gift you are giving your friend.
    Ewan Bonham: We may not change things at the physical level..
    Aphrodite Macbain: I can only affect her by somehow communicating with here. if she doesn't know I'm doing this, what difference would it make?
    Ewan Bonham: But IMHO I believe we really do not live on the physical plain
    Aphrodite Macbain: sorry to sound so negative today
    Bertram Jacobus: and often or sometimes it´s also the case, that we first don´t feel the benefit, but with getting used to a practise ... we feel it then ...
    Adams Rubble: we can not know what another senses
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes true
    Bertram Jacobus: hey aph - i had that role this morning ! *smile shy* - so ty for sharing all that with us ! ...
    Bertram Jacobus: (morning in europe)
    Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps it's enough to just do it and send it out into the universe
    Bruce Mowbray never has a problem with folks being emotionally honest here. -- No problem with Aph expressing herself -- or anyone else -- honestly.
    Aphrodite Macbain: what do you mean Bertram?
    Aphrodite Macbain: what did you do this morning?
    Bertram Jacobus: i had a terrible mood this morning ...
    Bertram Jacobus: was very depressed
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm so sorry
    Bertram Jacobus: but don´t let´s make this a topic again plz
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s okay - all great chances to learn ...
    Bertram Jacobus: ty
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-) -- That's what got us started talking about "Karma" -- at the first part of this session. . .
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm sorry. why should we not speak of it?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Oh
    Bertram Jacobus: not speak about my mood from this morning i meant - sry - you could read it in the wiki i think ... ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: (and i will be thrown out here shortly before 8 am i guess from my paid session - am not at home) ...
    Bruce Mowbray: Like Bert, I also was in a bad mood this morning --- Woke up from a bad dream literally hitting at the air with my fist -- and then had to work through that mood.
    Bruce Mowbray: So I went outside and trimmed a tree and pulled down vines while working through it.
    Bruce Mowbray: all before breakfast.
    Bertram Jacobus: yeah - physically getting active seems to be a very good mean ...
    Bruce Mowbray will be leaving to go to Pamala's Think Tank just before thetop of the hour.
    Ewan Bonham: Bruce, did that affect your Karma?
    Bruce Mowbray: It certainly affected my mood -- but I have no idea about karma, or how it works, or even WHETHER it works for me.
    Bertram Jacobus: i like to repeat : i think, we can karma see also as a view, a perspective. not everybody has to see in this way for sure (!) ...
    Bertram Jacobus: (and my access says, still 3 minutes left - so gb in advance) ... ;-)
    Adams Rubble: Goodbye in advance Bertram :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Clearly so, Bert. And the only "grasp" I can get on the notion of Karma is one of "momentum." -- but am open to learning more about it.
    Ewan Bonham: Bye for now, Bert
    Adams Rubble: Our actions including our moods have such a big effect on those around us
    Bertram Jacobus: oh yes adams ! so true
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks for claiming this sesion, Bert. and I do hope that the rest of your day will be better.
    Bertram Jacobus: all fine thx all
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm off to the think tank. Thank you all
    Bertram Jacobus: bye aph ...
    Adams Rubble: bye Aphrodite :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bfn aph
    Adams Rubble: and Bruce :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Just before we disperse, I would like to thank Adams for her input regarding Pema's Chapter 4. . .
    Bertram Jacobus: and bruce. :-)
    Ewan Bonham: Bye all...thanks for another great conversation.
    Adams Rubble: thank you Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: It prompted a lot of thinking and clarification of the method, for me. So thanks, again.
    Adams Rubble: bye ewan
    Bertram Jacobus: bye ewan
    Bruce Mowbray: See you at the Think Tank, Ewan.
    Adams Rubble: what is the think tank?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: roadside philosophers
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s a voicechat session by pamela clift
    Adams Rubble: ohhhh
    Yakuzza Lethecus: on random philosophical issues
    Bruce Mowbray: It's a discussion group operated by Pamala Clift -- an excellent gathering. I will give you an LM....
    Adams Rubble: ohhh
    Adams Rubble: thanks
    Adams Rubble: thank you Bruce
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, it´s really facinating adams you should listen you don´t have to talk
    Bruce Mowbray: Today we will be discussing perception -- and our love of movies that show us how false our perceptions can be.
    Bruce Mowbray: I never have voice.
    Adams Rubble: I have to go to a nutitionist who is going to tell me I can't eat all the foods I love (giggles)
    Bruce Mowbray: awwwww.. Sorry, Adams.
    Adams Rubble: well, hopefully I will find something new :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, I hope it goes well with the nutritionist. . . (and I should probably see one of those myself) ;-)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Have a good day, folks.
    Adams Rubble: yes, thanks for the discussion
    Adams Rubble: Thanks Yak

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