2010.09.04 13:00 - To Sleep, Perchance to Dream

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. Attending were Aphrodite, Zon, Morgano, and Qt.

    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Qt.
    Qt Core: Hi Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: It's been a good day in Italy, I hope.
    Qt Core: yes, quite good, less sunny than past days (but they were too sunny, hurting the eyes sunny)
    Bruce Mowbray: ouch!
    Qt Core: but my eyes are easily hurt by sun
    Bruce Mowbray: I usually think of sun-glasses when I think of Italy -- similar to Florida or California.
    Qt Core: the office where I work is NINE from my house, so I got sun in my eyes both way and late summer and late spring are the worst times
    Bruce Mowbray: Wow. . . I can see that you would need some sort of way to make shade. . . also a driving hazzard.
    Bruce Mowbray: [please let me know if you want me to make the fountain higher -- I just lowered it to make it easier to see.]
    Qt Core: np
    Bruce Mowbray: ok, thanks.
    Bruce Mowbray: Any special topics of concern to you today, Qt?
    Qt Core: I once had some wonderful sunglasses, I could almost stare at the sun with those... but I had to stop using them as I could not see the traffic lights ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Ha! Yes, that could present a problem - for sure.
    Qt Core: I often don't know if I have a topic or too many topic and could not choose, not even acknowledge how many and what they are
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)


    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Aph!
    Qt Core: Hi Aphrodite
    Aphrodite Macbain: Salve! Hi
    Aphrodite Macbain: who is the guardian today?
    Bruce Mowbray: That would be moi.
    Bruce Mowbray: I rarely remember my dreams, but I had one last night that has stuck with me all day.
    Qt Core: I'm having more dreams and different from the usual ones in past few months, but tell us something about yours (if you wish)
    Aphrodite Macbain: oh good dreams
    Qt Core: having more maybe not, remembering more maybe yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: oh good, dreams
    Bruce Mowbray: sure. . . well, it involved a few issues of insecurity and identity -- things that I thought I'd long ago worked through.
    Bruce Mowbray: actually, they were adolescent issues of acceptance and that sort of thing.
    Qt Core: but after your car crash and doctor news it seems understandable
    Aphrodite Macbain: things were shaken up-literally
    Bruce Mowbray: I think the car crash might have provoked the dream - because it did involve a car.
    Qt Core: ;)
    Aphrodite Macbain: were your adolescent fears about cars?
    Bruce Mowbray: There were several other guys in the car, and they asked me if I wanted to go with them to Mexico -- apparently it was just a short drive away.
    Bruce Mowbray: and I said, "NO"  and then they criticized me strongly for not going with them.
    Bruce Mowbray: So, then I said, OK - I would go.
    Bruce Mowbray: But then there was no more room in the car....
    Aphrodite Macbain: what do you think that was about?
    Bruce Mowbray: I knew that if I tried to squeeze into the car, I would not be able to endure the claustrophobia.
    Qt Core: we spoke about peer pressure on teens yesterday too, Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Whew!  I don't really know what it was about -- acceptance, perhaps -- and feeling excluded and rejected..
    Bruce Mowbray: also, feeling crowded by other people -- and their expectations of me.
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes -- peer pressure. Good point.
    Aphrodite Macbain: well- you would also be the Mexicans. Perhaps a part of you was prodding you to take risks and the other part was refusing
    Bruce Mowbray: I don't understand, Aph. How could I also be the Mexicans?
    Aphrodite Macbain: because apparently we are ALL the characters in our dreams
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Zon.
    Zon Quar: hi all
    Qt Core: Hi Zon
    Aphrodite Macbain: they are all manifestations of us
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I agree with that -- that we are all of the characters in our dreams -- but, there were no Mexicans in the dream. . . . My "friends" were going to Mexico - but I don't know if they ever got there -- because I didn't go with them.
    Bruce Mowbray: It felt like sort of a scenario of my entire life -- making a choice not to go along.
    Aphrodite Macbain: oh sorry, my brain did a leap and turned your friends into Mexicans sorry
    Bruce Mowbray: OMG OMG OMG!
    Aphrodite Macbain: do feel badly now that you didn't?
    Bruce Mowbray: I just realized that this dream was about something that actually happened about 45 years ago.
    Qt Core: !
    Bruce Mowbray: when I was a college student in Texas....
    Aphrodite Macbain: and your brain was re-playing it
    Bruce Mowbray: and my friends did actually take that trip to Mexico and asked me if I wanted to go ---
    Bruce Mowbray: OMG!
    Bruce Mowbray: I'd forgotten about that for 45 years!
    Aphrodite Macbain: and you said no?
    Qt Core: Hi Adams
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Abigail Adams
    Bruce Mowbray: YES -- of course I said NO!
    Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
    Zon Quar: Adams
    Aphrodite Macbain: why ‘of course'?
    Bruce Mowbray: These were guys from college who were out for sex and a wild time in Mexico -- NO WAY that I wanted to go with them... (then or now, apparently).
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Adams.
    Zon Quar: why not?
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, as Aph has already pointed out -- part of me wanted to be accepted by them (to become accepted as "one of the guys") but a larger part of me wanted to be left alone. . .


    Aphrodite Macbain: Seems like it might not be totally resolved in your mind
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Morgano.
    Adams Rubble: Hello Morgano
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Aph -- I agree: not resolved yet, apparently -- or perhaps triggered by recent events.
    Qt Core: Hi Morgani
    morgano Bravin: Hi, sorry, running a bit slow
    Zon Quar: morgano
    morgano Bravin: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey Aph -- do you want practice with claiming a session? If so, just let me know and you can have this one.
    Adams Rubble: no need to be sorry Morgano :)
    Qt Core: asking yourself if a ‘yes' instead of a ‘no' could have changed your life
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. Is it a re-occurring dream?
    Bruce Mowbray: Not a re-occurring dream. That's probably why it took me this long to recognize who the people in the dream were and what I was doing there...
    Bruce Mowbray: It was a repeat of something that actually happened 45 years ago.
    morgano Bravin: while you were at uni?
    Aphrodite Macbain: It means that almost everything is stored in our memory
    morgano Bravin: before moving to the farm?
    Adams Rubble: It is interesting when long lost people appear in a dream and one wonders who they could be
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, between college and moving to the farm, there were seven years that I  lived in California.  (grad school and teaching there).
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes -- "long lost people," indeed.  I have been in touch with NONE of them for 45 years!
    morgano Bravin: yes, I have had that happen before, never too sure whether my inquisitiveness prompts identification or whether its just realization
    Bruce Mowbray: can you say more, Morgano?
    morgano Bravin: only that some sort of decision during the dream to attach some identity to a character may force the mind to attach an identity
    Bruce Mowbray: mmmm. . . interesting.
    morgano Bravin: if that makes sense
    Zon Quar: Isn't the mind always doing that..   identifying with something?
    Bruce Mowbray: Do any of the rest of you relate to this "dreaming of the distant past" and attaching identity to characters in the dream?
    morgano Bravin: there can be some interference during the process of attaching an identity
    Qt Core: never dreamed about past.
    Qt Core: but I increased the recognition of people in dreams in last months
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I felt this interference last night - in the dream itself.
    Adams Rubble: When one is looking closely at oneself, then the mind looks for sources of attachments.
    Adams Rubble: they may be in the distant past
    Aphrodite Macbain: There are certain characters who reoccur in my dreams quite regularly who were people in my past. But the dreams take place in the present
    Aphrodite Macbain: Often there are unresolved issues around those people
    Bruce Mowbray: Gosh -- please -- everyone say more!
    morgano Bravin: but sometimes the theme in a present dream may originate from the distant past
    Adams Rubble thinks those people can be drenching
    morgano Bravin: un-finished business
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, morgano -- that's what concerns me. I woke up in a "bad" mood about it -- thinking that OH GOSH -- I STILL have these problems with not being accepted....?
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes. there are themes. For me it is either missing a train/bus/plane or walking through a house, or looking for home"
    Aphrodite Macbain: Searching for home is the most common
    morgano Bravin: that is a regular for me, Bruce. It can change my mood for the day
    morgano Bravin: sometimes a dream can rake up something from the past that I didn't recognize in real time that it was an issue
    Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps there are advantages to not remembering our dreams
    Adams Rubble: I had a series of voices in my head telling me what I should be doing or thinking when I knew better. I began to dream about people in the past who were a collective part of that voice
    Aphrodite Macbain: Does anyone have flying dreams?
    Bruce Mowbray: I usually don't remember mine -- but also agree with morgano that there is still something there that I didn't realize was still an issue for me.
    Bruce Mowbray: Nope -- I only fly in SL -- not in dreams.
    Zon Quar: sometimes
    Adams Rubble: I had thought it was one person and realized instead these were things picked up along the way
    Aphrodite Macbain: They are so wonderful.
    morgano Bravin: I have flown, but not recently or often
    Qt Core: not real dreams, only the flying feeling just seconds before sleeping
    Adams Rubble: I don't remember flying
    morgano Bravin: yes, a wonderful experience
    Adams Rubble makes a note to talk to the dream travel person
    Zon Quar: then I realize usually..this must be a dream..but I enjoy it
    Aphrodite Macbain: I could put myself on the ceiling at will or jump/fly over tall buildings
    morgano Bravin: nice Zon
    Bruce Mowbray: Wow, Aph -- I'm envious!
    morgano Bravin: yes, nice too Aph
    Qt Core: lately I've dreamed a few time about being some sort of counselor/trainer/agent for some known or unknown VIP
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wish I could get it back
    Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps it was an optimistic time in my life
    Bruce Mowbray: Interesting, Qt -- what do you think that's about?
    Aphrodite Macbain: do you do that in RL, QT?
    Qt Core: don't know.  Me, a counselor ? I'm bad at counseling myself!
    Qt Core: no
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)


    Qt Core: but I sometimes have to teach colleagues.  They come when they have troubles.
    Qt Core: (technical ones I mean)
    Aphrodite Macbain: hmm
    Aphrodite Macbain: What does counseling people make you feel? Anxious, happy?
    Bruce Mowbray: I will throw in something completely different - almost - related to flying. If you want to follow the flight of any plane, you can find it at this website: www.flightaware.com
    morgano Bravin: I have spoken to others that have flown in dreams, especially in space, who have a similar feeling to me. That is that there becomes apprehension about flying too far away from the body
    Bruce Mowbray: fascinating, morgano -- as if identity with the physical body were a priority.
    Qt Core: I like the job, and realizing now that the first one was in the past, I usually dream in the present
    Aphrodite Macbain: They feel they might not re-connect?
    morgano Bravin: or some attachment from conditioning
    Zon Quar: some say it's not a dream but an astral travel
    Aphrodite Macbain: some do
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, Zon, I've heard that (about astral travel) -- but never done it myself (I don't think).
    morgano Bravin: in astral projection one tends to be more lucid
    Zon Quar: might depend how conscious u r
    Aphrodite Macbain: I don't usually get that high. I stick to Earth
    Bruce Mowbray: concerning lucid dreaming -- I do that a lot - but I always have to make a "deal" first.
    Zon Quar: deal ?
    Bruce Mowbray: I have to agree that I will not do anything "heroic" in the dream... otherwise I am not "allowed" to be lucid.
    Adams Rubble: I had two visions where I felt I was moving but I was not asleep
    Aphrodite Macbain: what IS astral travel. Visiting stars?
    Zon Quar: no visiting another dimension
    Aphrodite Macbain: you can do that? I guess it must take practice. I wonder if you sleep as deeply
    Zon Quar: why not?
    Bruce Mowbray: As I understand it (although never having done it myself), astral travel is when your spirit leaves your body -- and can look back and "see" your body behind or below it.
    Bruce Mowbray: This seems to happen sometimes with people undergoing surgery -- and maybe also in life-threatening situations.
    Adams Rubble: I had that experience as a child
    Aphrodite Macbain: Oh. Wonder why they say ‘astral.'
    morgano Bravin: you are supposed to stay attached by a thread, like of silk
    Zon Quar: not necessarily..we all do that in night.  some say..its just a matter of being conscious of it
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, I've heard about being attached by a thread, too.
    morgano Bravin: I wouldn't recommend it
    Aphrodite Macbain: Shirley MacClaine talked about it in a book about 20 years ago
    Bruce Mowbray: wow -- How do your feel about your childhood experience with it, Adams?
    Qt Core: (about planes, this is nice, even in limited in the area it covers): http://radar.zhaw.ch/radar.html)
    Adams Rubble: I never thought much about it, it just was
    Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmmm.
    Adams Rubble: I guess I took it for granted
    Aphrodite Macbain: I must fly now.
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks for joining us, Aph. Be well.
    Zon Quar: be conscious Aph
    Adams Rubble: It is a bird, it's a plane, It's Aphrodite!
    Bruce Mowbray wonders if Aph filed a flight plan....
    morgano Bravin: bye Aph
    Zon Quar: and enjoy the feeling
    morgano Bravin: what was the moving sensation, Adams?
    morgano Bravin: the feeling like on a big roller coaster?
    Adams Rubble: in one I was sitting in a chair at work and suddenly I felt myself rise up into the sky toward the sun, and on the way I passed a cloud and on the cloud was God, sitting like a guru and he was smiling at me...so I smiled back
    Bruce Mowbray: @ Zon -- You said, "we all do that in night some say..its jut a matter of being conscious of it" – Were you referring to lucid dreaming or astral travel?
    morgano Bravin: that sounds fantastic
    Zon Quar: being in astral dimension
    Bruce Mowbray: wow -- That is amazing, Adams.
    morgano Bravin: that indeed sounds like astral projection
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, Zon.
    Bruce Mowbray: So you, Zon have also had this experience?
    Zon Quar: I think so
    Zon Quar: but not very clear always
    Adams Rubble: the other was a bit personal but I was lying in bed and I could feel myself being rocked as if in a cradle
    Bruce Mowbray listens intently.
    Adams Rubble: It started on its own and stopped on its own even though I wanted it to continue
    morgano Bravin: that feeling one may get like vertigo, or falling down, is the reverse of what I have experienced whilst soaring up into space
    Qt Core: the only lucid thing I can do in my dreams is waking up when they become too weird and hurt my sense of logic.
    Adams Rubble: These experiences were both while I was in PaB
    morgano Bravin: whilst you were being rocked, did you experience a paralysis?
    Adams Rubble: hmmm, I don't think so, it was comforting
    morgano Bravin: nice
    Adams Rubble: and awesome too
    morgano Bravin: guess because it was a safe feeling
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: Sounds like releasing yourself trustfully -- into something larger than yourself.
    Adams Rubble: I think I wrote about both these experiences in the Chronicles
    Adams Rubble: yes, Bruce, that was part of it
    morgano Bravin: if nothing else, dreams like that which are comforting are a reminder that there is comfort in life,,
    Adams Rubble: :)
    morgano Bravin: during our hectic lives we need reminders
    Bruce Mowbray ponders "comfort in life."


    morgano Bravin: I have a question: If dreams are useful as a tool to sort out issues that maybe our subconscious is only sensitive to, is there not a risk that as well as being beneficial, there also may be a risk of becoming disturbed ?
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Good question, morgano.
    Zon Quar: I think its nature's way to try to avoid that.
    Zon Quar: to make us gently aware of things we need to be aware of
    Adams Rubble: That is a good question for Maxine :)
    Adams Rubble: I must go. Thank you all for the discussion :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Maxine's dream group would have something to say on that.
    Adams Rubble: bye
    morgano Bravin: yes, I was going to ask her last week, but sl was bad for me - crashes and all
    Qt Core: Bye, Adams
    Bruce Mowbray: Good bye, Adams. THANK you!
    morgano Bravin: bye, Adams
    Bruce Mowbray: I trust that our minds are friendly to us - and looking out for our own best interests -- and therefore would not set us up for something that would be destructive.
    morgano Bravin: I have had recurring issues that some folks would say that I should have forgot about and put behind me.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, morgano -- before you arrived we were discussing that -- concerning a dream I had last night.
    morgano Bravin: the dreams seem to not allow that passage
    Bruce Mowbray: please tell us more about it.
    morgano Bravin: there is nothing I can say, other than I would like to move on but dreams hold me in a sort of stasis
    Zon Quar: they have a message I guess
    morgano Bravin: as if I am not allowed to move on until the puzzle is solved
    Bruce Mowbray: So, the dream wants to be sure that you have completely worked through the issue before moving on?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes -- you just answered my question.
    Zon Quar: I think so
    morgano Bravin: yes
    Zon Quar: The mind hates unfinished business
    Bruce Mowbray: Mmmm...
    Zon Quar: so it comes back to u
    Zon Quar: in dreams
    Zon Quar: in recurring thoughts
    Bruce Mowbray is thinking about what ‘unresolved issues' his dream of last night is still working out.
    morgano Bravin: but sometimes the possibility of finding the truth is impossible
    Zon Quar: nothing is impossible
    Zon Quar: only difficult
    Zon Quar: lol
    Bruce Mowbray: I wonder if I would recognize "the truth" if it showed up.
    Qt Core: while it may be a not-well informed guess, I think that dreams pick up thoughts that, consciously or not, are wandering in our minds during the day and randomly puts them together. They aren't answers, at most a "to do list"
    morgano Bravin: if it was in the past and the only witnesses are dead, what can one do?
    Bruce Mowbray ponders, Dreams as a "to do list."
    Zon Quar: they r question perhaps
    Zon Quar: the question is what it means to u
    Qt Core: questions that bothered us in the day (and that maybe we didn't knowledge)
    Zon Quar: unfinished business...
    Bruce Mowbray: Excellent point, Zon -- What is the significance to YOU?
    Bruce Mowbray: That seems to be the crux of the matter.
    Zon Quar: yes
    morgano Bravin: I think many of us suffer from unanswered issues. Some hide them for fear of being identified as weird
    Bruce Mowbray: So -- Zon takes an existential approach to dreaming: we decide our own meanings.
    morgano Bravin: he he
    morgano Bravin: that perhaps is the sane approach
    Zon Quar: wow didn't know that's 'existential'..lol
    Bruce Mowbray thinks, The older I get, the more I realize that NOTHING is answered.
    morgano Bravin: whereas mine - never finding the answer is the crazy one
    Zon Quar: because the answer is in the question
    Bruce Mowbray . . . and also that everything is in a way, already answered.

    Bruce Mowbray: Live in the Open Questions!
    Zon Quar: why do u ask?
    morgano Bravin: maybe the answer is there, but outside forces refuse to acknowledge it, thus causing conflict in resolve
    Zon Quar: I think we r not ready to face it
    Qt Core: and the answer is usually... you've made the wrong question
    Bruce Mowbray: I think I ask because there is something in me that wants things wrapped up in neat little packages called "meaning" - but a larger part of me realizes that "meaning" is very limited.
    Zon Quar: it's in us
    morgano Bravin: I am like you Bruce. It is tiring sometimes
    Zon Quar: we avoid looking at it directly
    Bruce Mowbray: The "problem," for me, is that "packages" are external -- and do not always reveal their contents -- and also frequently refer only to other "packages" that also hide their contents.
    morgano Bravin: I need to backtrack, Zon
    Qt Core: I still believe in meanings, maybe we aren't ready or unable to get them, but I still need to know they exist for everything
    Bruce Mowbray: It's ok, morgano -- Please do backtrack. We can take all the time we need here.
    morgano Bravin: I see, we are not ready to face the answer?
    Zon Quar: yes
    Zon Quar: things that are in unconscious
    morgano Bravin: that's a possibility
    Bruce Mowbray truly doubts that anything has "meaning" in the long run.
    Zon Quar: are often repressed
    Zon Quar: for a reason
    morgano Bravin: I sense this sometimes in beliefs
    Zon Quar: dreams try to raise them in awareness
    Qt Core: maybe reason is a better term, less emotional ?
    morgano Bravin: as in faith


    Zon Quar: all repressed thoughts r emotional
    Zon Quar: shame
    Zon Quar: guilt
    Zon Quar: puts them there
    morgano Bravin: there is an economy - in only being given what to see when one can understand it
    Zon Quar: gtg to bed, hope I see beautiful flying dreams
    Zon Quar: nite all
    morgano Bravin: bye Zon, farewell
    Bruce Mowbray thinks, If morgano is right, then there is indeed "grace" in this universe.
    Qt Core: 'night Zon, nice dreams to you too
    morgano Bravin: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Goodbye, Zon. and thanks for being here today.
    Bruce Mowbray: whew -- we really blew that 90-second break, huh?
    morgano Bravin: yikes
    Bruce Mowbray: I mean -- we ignored it -- but also we also utilized it to go deeper.
    Qt Core: the breaks are for us, not the other way around ;-)
    morgano Bravin: I always feel if its outside the hour its ok
    Bruce Mowbray: WONDERFUL point, Qt!
    morgano Bravin: yes, good point qt
    Qt Core: and I feel the same as morgano for "breaking " them outside the hour limit ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes -- I agree with both of you -- and also that it is up to US what we do with the breaks -- NOT the rules of the Establishment.
    morgano Bravin: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: although I want to respect everyone's wishes with that.
    morgano Bravin: go with the flow
    Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.
    Qt Core: when the discussion is going strong and the bell chimes... there are valid reasons both for stopping and for going along
    morgano Bravin: I think the practice is good, but more so if it translates into everyday operation too
    Bruce Mowbray: So. . . I am thinking -- that if our dreams present to us what we need to continue to work with -- and also that they protect us in some ways, then there is an unconscious "grace" working within us.
    morgano Bravin: I wish I could see it as a ‘grace'
    Bruce Mowbray: What I mean by "grace" is a Basic Goodness.
    Qt Core: some sort of mental antivirus that puts things in quarantine (the things we have to solve) and shows us a list of those (the dream)
    Qt Core: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Wow -- wonderful analogy-metaphor, QT.
    morgano Bravin: well, this brings me back to the bit I said about can it be destructive too?
    Bruce Mowbray: Can it be destructive -- ?  Seemingly, yes, but ultimately the dream is for instruction.
    morgano Bravin: I love that idea, Qt, but what if it gets bugs?
    Qt Core: thinking quite a lot about the mind as a computer in last few days (and in past years too)
    Bruce Mowbray is thinking: As neuro-biology reveals more about how the mind works - the more we will re-design our computers to parallel our minds.
    morgano Bravin: me too. We are blessed in this epoch to be able to have something akin to the brain, pc, to draw similarities from
    Qt Core: it shows them to us via dreams, then we choose whether to leave them around  -  at the risk of letting them make damages
    morgano Bravin: I haven't found a suitable antivirus / cleaner yet
    Qt Core: I've found that with some good habits and a wired network between your pc and the 'net antivirus are almost unnecessary
    Bruce Mowbray: @ morgano: In the movie INCEPTION - most of the havoc and violence was caused by the "projections" that were trying to PROTECT the dreamer.
    morgano Bravin: and your point, Bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: In other words, the projections (within the dream itself) were there to protect the dreamer from bad results.  The "projections" were themselves a sort of anti-virus.
    morgano Bravin: mmm, cant quite fit that into my case yet
    Qt Core: like Agents Smith in Matrix ;-)
    morgano Bravin: you mean a purging tool?
    Bruce Mowbray thinks, I would never go on-line without a good anti-virus program running.
    morgano Bravin: can't avoid going to sleep though
    Bruce Mowbray: Sure.
    morgano Bravin: I know Mickorod tried to go without sleep
    Bruce Mowbray: Don't know if you've seen the movie INCEPTION -- but in that movie, the projections would stare at the dreamer in order to show that they were concerned about his/her welfare...
    morgano Bravin: it's not the answer even if its possible.
    morgano Bravin: yes, I saw the film
    Bruce Mowbray: OMG! Mickorod tried to go without sleep!!!?
    Bruce Mowbray: For heaven's sake, why!?
    morgano Bravin: He is ok, but like me, the frustration of bad dreams becomes tiring
    Bruce Mowbray: (I ask this as one who values sleep as precious - and who has been medicated for insomnia for about 15 years,)
    Bruce Mowbray: OK -- if no sleep, then no bad dreams?
    morgano Bravin: yes, I remember you saying, Bruce
    morgano Bravin: yes, Mickorod doesn't lie in the mornings


    Bruce Mowbray: My insomnia was the result of a PTSD experience that happened with a disabled resident of a group home that I was the manager of. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: My Post Traumatic Stress Disorder diagnosis was the result of this resident pounding on my door at 4 a.m. every morning. . and as a result of that, I could not sleep- - -
    morgano Bravin: I get the feeling that most sleep disorders stem from PTSD in varied degrees
    Bruce Mowbray: and eventually got to the point of not being able to sleep at all. . . Losing all confidence that I could even fall asleep.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I think you might be right with that, morgano.
    Qt Core: my standard sleep hours went down from 6 1/2 per night to less than 5  - in a year
    morgano Bravin: and this brings me back to the fear of re-living the events during dreams
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh my, Qt. How could you even survive with that?
    Qt Core: but I still need the six and a half
    Bruce Mowbray: OK -- re-living the events....
    morgano Bravin: to be open with you, I rarely get more than 6 hours
    Bruce Mowbray: and this is a "bad thing" or a "good thing"?
    morgano Bravin: well, this is the catch
    Bruce Mowbray: (I meant that @ morgano -- about 're-living the experience.')
    Qt Core: each one has his/her standard sleeping need
    morgano Bravin: the mind wants to purge the event through dreaming, but the subject doesn't want to live with the event any longer
    Bruce Mowbray: By "subject" you mean the dreamer herself?
    morgano Bravin: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: ok.
    Bruce Mowbray: So -- there needs to be some sort of compromise -- perhaps.
    morgano Bravin: I have been the happy recipient of resolve from dreaming, but also tormented by non-resolve too
    Qt Core: maybe my different way of dreaming in past months is related to my sleep..
    morgano Bravin: what is the name one would give someone if they cannot think of anything other than one event, like ‘psychotic' or something?
    Bruce Mowbray thinks, It is almost Qt's bedtime.
    Bruce Mowbray: I think that is called "obsession," morgano.
    morgano Bravin: ok, that will do
    Qt Core: yes, mine is past, now I have to make someone think theirs has come too
    Bruce Mowbray: but that's only a word.
    Bruce Mowbray: It only mattesr what you think of it.
    morgano Bravin: so, someone stuck in a re-occurring dream could be diagnosed as being obsessive?
    Bruce Mowbray: like getting a song stuck in your mind - over and over.
    morgano Bravin: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: I suppose they could receive such a diagnosis -- but only the dreamer matters, to me.
    morgano Bravin: now, that would be described by some as being a sickness?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, a "sickness" -- but who cares about that? The psychiatrists will have their day.
    morgano Bravin: yet, if that is what the mind is doing to resolve an issue?
    Bruce Mowbray: The important thing is what YOU make of it.
    Bruce Mowbray: After my father died, for example, I had the same recurring dream for nine years, and I screamed myself awake every time -- for nine years.
    Bruce Mowbray: and finally I found my way to this farm -- 39 years ago --
    morgano Bravin: I think there is a Catch-22 in there somewhere
    Qt Core: thinking about one of the few reoccurring dreams I had... having a NORAD-like installation under my house
    morgano Bravin: pretty ghastly, Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: and then the dream STOPPED and never came back.  So, was I 'psychotic'???
    morgano Bravin: that's amazing, Bruce
    morgano Bravin: :)
    morgano Bravin: hey, maybe
    Bruce Mowbray: Please tell us about NORAD, Qt.  - if you want to.
    Qt Core: I had it for the first 3 to 4 years after changing house at 9 years of age
    Bruce Mowbray thinks, This is amazing.
    Qt Core: I was following a talking rubber duck around my old house


    Qt Core: then the duck shows me a hidden door and shows me this NORAD-like (remember War Games, the movie) control room
    morgano Bravin: cool
    Bruce Mowbray: yes.
    Qt Core: and sometimes a nuclear war started, sometimes didn't
    morgano Bravin: how far are you from the Swiss /French border, QT?
    Qt Core: are you telling me to go to see the LHC at CERN ?
    morgano Bravin: it could be your destiny
    Qt Core: 100/150 km to the Swiss one, btw
    morgano Bravin: mm not a million miles
    Qt Core: I think I stopped making this dream after seeing "The day after"
    Bruce Mowbray: Wow..... powerful -- Both movies.
    morgano Bravin: I had a few apocalyptic dreams after having my first child
    Qt Core: I still feels some fear just thinking about that dream
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Qt. . . I do understand that you would still feel fear from it.
    Bruce Mowbray: and about morgano's apocalyptic dream?
    morgano Bravin: only that when you have children your defensive side becomes more awake
    morgano Bravin: dreams test out all the scenarios
    Bruce Mowbray: Mmmm.. I have never had children -- so this fascinates me.
    Bruce Mowbray: Mmmm. . . That would tend to support what I said earlier about the Basic Goodness of our minds.
    morgano Bravin: the lost child, the savage armies overrunning. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: They are protecting us against all possibilities,.
    morgano Bravin: yes
    Qt Core: even the improbable and more terrifying ones (I don't have children either)
    Bruce Mowbray: So "painful" or "alarming" does not have to mean "bad."
    morgano Bravin: but the creativity of the mind can get a bit out of control. What if it creates dreams that enforce distrust?
    Bruce Mowbray: Mmmmm. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: then perhaps they would follow up with dreams that WOULD create trust...?
    Bruce Mowbray: I don't know, really.
    Qt Core: even in your own ability to raise the child ?
    Bruce Mowbray: But I TRUST that our minds would take care of whatever business needed to be taken care of.
    morgano Bravin: trust in society in one's relationships.
    Bruce Mowbray: Mmmmm. . . Ahh. There's where it begins to break down for me -- which is the major reason that I am a hermit.
    morgano Bravin: dreams can create scenarios that don't always provide a rational answer
    Bruce Mowbray wonders what "rational" might mean.
    Qt Core: look at #1 (end of the page): http://www.cracked.com/article_18577_5-horrible-diseases-that-changed-world-for-better_p2.html (parents seem to have a light OCD
    Bruce Mowbray suspects that the deeper "answers" are not at all rational.
    Qt Core: (middle of the page, the rest are comments)
    Bruce Mowbray quotes from the website – "OCD also had a big hand in the evolution of religion, particularly a specific kind of OCD that leads people to obsessively repeat and refine religious rituals, so terrified that they're not doing it right that it becomes debilitating. Martin Luther, founder of the Protestant faith, is now thought to have suffered from it. He nit-picked the Catholic church into the Protestant Reformation, and the rest is history." Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_18577_5-horrible-diseases-that-changed-world-for-better_p2.html#ixzz0ybHy75E9
    Qt Core: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Wow. Thanks for that link, Qt.
    Bruce Mowbray: It is dinner time here -- and I must be away.
    Bruce Mowbray: Please do continue your discussion as long as you like.
    morgano Bravin: I must leave too.
    Bruce Mowbray: Blessings to both of you.
    Qt Core: and (hopefully) sleep time here.
    morgano Bravin: sorry qt. I need to slip away
    Qt Core: bye Bruce,
    Bruce Mowbray: Good night!
    morgano Bravin: thanks for tonight
    morgano Bravin: nite nite
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you both.
    Qt Core: I'm going too.
    Qt Core: 'night morgano

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