2010.09.05 19:00 - Ship of Souls

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     The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    I started this session feeling as if life (or was it "I"?) were somewhat routine and uncreative.  I've learned not to identify with that impression - and in this case, we collectively got into a mutually energetic groove and had an enjoyable and stimulating session, thanks to all participants.

    Calvino Rabeni: Aphrodite - Good evening :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Good evening Calvino
    Aphrodite Macbain: I believe this is often the quietest time of the week
    Calvino Rabeni: Ewan :) Hello !
    Calvino Rabeni: It's the end-of-the-weekend feeling around this neighborhood
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: and a holiday weekend also - no work tomorrow
    Aphrodite Macbain: one the phone rite now. brb
    Calvino Rabeni: A lot of relaxed family parties in backyards and decks
    Aphrodite Macbain: I'm back!
    Calvino Rabeni: ! welcome back
    Aphrodite Macbain: What had you said earlier?
    Calvino Rabeni: This is the weekend of the end-of-the-summer holiday in the US
    Aphrodite Macbain: I should look in the chat history
    Aphrodite Macbain: Oh yes- labour day weekend here too
    Calvino Rabeni: a back-to-school time for families
    Aphrodite Macbain: Makes no difference to me as I'm semi-retired
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes all those pencils, books and computers to buy
    Calvino Rabeni: Same with me
    Aphrodite Macbain: Oh? May I ask what you've retired from?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I seem to be just as busy as I as when I was working full time
    Aphrodite Macbain: as I was
    Aphrodite Macbain: Sorry. Should I not have asked you?
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, development of large software systems - like for airlines and health insurance - they were the most recent activities to pay the bills
    Aphrodite Macbain: so you are very conversant with the new technologies
    Calvino Rabeni: More or less
    Aphrodite Macbain: Do you now work on contract from time to time?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, occasionally
    Aphrodite Macbain: brb
    Aphrodite Macbain: back. I'm in the middle of cooking diner :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: What's on the stove?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Chicken stew, Brussels sprouts and broccoli

    Aphrodite Macbain: Do you own land here. I've been trying to find a ay of building a little place in Bieup
    Calvino Rabeni: The guardians have plots here - I have one nearby - do you?
    Aphrodite Macbain: No. I tried to put a little cube on a place I wanted but it wouldn't allow me. I have to find Storm.
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm curious what you retired from, whether it included community development or similar activities
    Aphrodite Macbain: to get permission first
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, Storm is the make-it-happen man for that
    Aphrodite Macbain: I still teach it on line for the University of Victoria anGrr. I teach the subject on line
    Aphrodite Macbain: very laggy
    Calvino Rabeni: I noticed the lag ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: and am an arts management consultant
    Paradise Tennant: smiles Hiya Aph .. Cal :) .. Ewan :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: contract work
    Calvino Rabeni: Hey Paradise good evening
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Paradise
    Paradise Tennant: smiles fine arts .. or theatre ? aph ..both are fascinating :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Arts management? what does that mean exactly?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: Art managers directors, curators, of art galleries, museums, theatres, libraries etc
    Aphrodite Macbain: it's a huge network
    Paradise Tennant: smiles .. a vocation which is a passion :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: My area of knowledge is in fine arts- mainly contemporary art
    Aphrodite Macbain: and have been a curator in many art galleries across Canada
    Aphrodite Macbain: but in my 50s suddenly discovered community cultural development
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's more about people than art
    Aphrodite Macbain: people than art
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I was trying to think up a question about that, Aph :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: ...which part?
    Calvino Rabeni: Both really ..
    Aphrodite Macbain: about ccd and curatorship?
    Calvino Rabeni: The transition
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes.
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, what's the paradigm of the first, and how you got into the second?
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Mitzi - good to see you :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles hello mitzi gtsy :))
    Aphrodite Macbain: I realized that I wasn't happy working in a somewhat elitist world and quite the best paying job I ever had and left for Vancouver to star all over again
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ah, the iridescent paradise ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Mitzi
    Paradise Tennant: smiles .. aph.. :) fresh starts ... are perhaps one of the most exciting steps in life :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: The last 10 years of my life have been the best
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: can I sit here? Or should I spread out ---?
    Aphrodite Macbain: going with your passion....
    Calvino Rabeni: That looks like a good spot Mitzi
    Aphrodite Macbain: You are sitting in a perfect spot Mitzi
    Paradise Tennant: I am just waiting for the cushions to arrive which these days takes about 20 minutes :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Calvino, hello Aphrodite ... thanks for the reassurance ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: That way we can see all of us on one screen
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh yes, that's a good reason to set nearby each other ...!
    Calvino Rabeni: What if you Para, click on the spot midway between me and Aph - can you then sit there?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I couldn't find anything in that store I could afford Paradise
    Aphrodite Macbain: But it was fun looking
    Aphrodite Macbain: good idea Calvino
    Paradise Tennant: does not seem to work if I cannot see them :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, probably - I never tried it
    Aphrodite Macbain: Click somewhere between my head and Calvino's!
    Paradise Tennant: well aph .. there are plenty of options .. in SL fashions :) we can try elsewhere :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: true true. I'll just have to win a lottery . That is the best store I've been to

    Calvino Rabeni: Aphro, I sense there's a social pattern involved in what people do after a successful career, broadening into areas like community
    Aphrodite Macbain: It's almost like finally doing something you really want to do after doing stuff you think you should do
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but I think theres a shift in the sphere of concern that can happen
    Paradise Tennant: hard to find something that really lights your fire year in year out ..unless I find it really really challenges you intellectually makes you grow ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Are you at a decision point, Aphrodite?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. But the job I had a the Community center was brand new and never stopped being inspiring. www.roundhouse.ca
    Aphrodite Macbain: It was about 15 yeas ago Mitzi
    Aphrodite Macbain: In my case Calvino, I had always wanted to do something like that but it didn't really exist when I began my career
    Aphrodite Macbain: Calvino
    Paradise Tennant: nice thing about coming into your own is that you spend very little time not doing what you want to do .. I find at least :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Has anyone else had a similar experience?
    Calvino Rabeni: Traditional societies often had an idea of stages of life and their concerns - I think it is still present now, but covered over by a culture emphasizing individualism and youth. Not that I'm trying to pigeonhole you of course ...
    Calvino Rabeni: But I've noticed many people following a trajectory like that, and yet not quite knowing how to define it in social terms
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think you're right. We need different things as we get older.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and it often involves a return to concern for social issues, I think
    Calvino Rabeni: A broader scope of concerns
    Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps we become clearer about what is really important to us and have the confidence to act upon that knowledge
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes!
    Paradise Tennant: I think with maturity you grow out of yourself and into the world and naturally your concerns perspectives broaden
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: exactly
    Aphrodite Macbain: Has this been your experience?
    Calvino Rabeni: And may perhaps be freed up from responsibility to raising a family, or ... well there seem a number of reasons for that broadening
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes - the world changes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I have had that experience, and also changed my career from corporate to self-employed ... and I spend very little time doing what I don't want to do, and especially not in the company of people that I don't care for ...
    Calvino Rabeni: There may be some common themes or principles of development involved
    Calvino Rabeni: I've had that experience
    Aphrodite Macbain: When I retired I found myself not so much re-inventing myself but reinventing my future
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... themes of human maturation over the life cycle, Calvino, or other types of themes?
    Aphrodite Macbain: my future
    Calvino Rabeni: Especially being exposed to broader cultural horizons, and importing some of their notions of development
    Aphrodite Macbain: what was your experience Calvino?
    Aphrodite Macbain: I found travel an extremely important factor in broadening my awareness
    Aphrodite Macbain: Especially when I went to India and Africa
    Calvino Rabeni: One thing I noticed traveling, is the way people were seen as growing or maturing into a role of having knowledge or wisdom - even responsibilities - for concerns beyond themselves
    Aphrodite Macbain: I wish I could start all over again with the knowledge I have now
    Calvino Rabeni: I thought so too - but then again I might not have valued it at the earlier times
    Aphrodite Macbain: I am not sure hat you mean Calvino
    Aphrodite Macbain: about the traveling
    Aphrodite Macbain: I think it was Bernard Shaw who said Life is Wasted on the young
    Calvino Rabeni: To put a word on it - people are expected to mature into a role of being wise, or at least, experienced - and others expect to be able to rely on that
    Calvino Rabeni: and a word that would be unpopular in this youth-oriented culture is "Elder"
    Aphrodite Macbain: Oh yes, In countries where the old people are valued
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Aphrodite - about wishing to start over with the knowledge we have now ... it made me think that if we could change our culture,maybe children in the future *COULD* start out with more wisdom right off the bat ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... instead of spending so many years unraveling and rejecting cultural values to find our own ... takes decades to do that (for me anyway)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Interesting Mitzi.

    Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder whether things will change as the Baby Boomers arrive full force
    Calvino Rabeni: We may find a revival of the cultural attitudes around that issue - due to the shifting demographic of the population
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I know many people who, when retired or semi-retired, become move involved in volunteerism, mentoring, community development, or perhaps filled the gaps in their spiritual knowledge.
    Paradise Tennant: hmm smiles .. every age has an appeal but I could have happily skipped the teen age angst entirely .. really liked being 12 ;) and every stage I think has it charms the biggest plus about being a grown up ..is you stop worrying about what others think :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. They have a need to connect with another society beyond work
    Paradise Tennant: yes It think there is a shift to the bigger questions
    Calvino Rabeni: That is another part of the dynamic - and the need to find new meaningful activity
    Paradise Tennant: with maturity .. and curiosity
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Aphrodite Macbain: meaningful- that's the key word
    Aphrodite Macbain: activities that have values and meaning to someone who has lived a fully examined life
    Paradise Tennant: smiles .. that is a trick .. living a fully examined life ...
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes- it's hard to make life changing decisions without knowing what our needs and values are
    Calvino Rabeni: It also seems to me, many of the socially progressive movements have young members and mature members, but relatively less in the middle, where people are committed to family and career as their main obligations
    Aphrodite Macbain: Can you till not see us Paradise?
    Calvino Rabeni: The needs and values shift during the lifecycle
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: An interesting aspect of all this is that typically you lose a lot of income when you do what you love.
    Calvino Rabeni: but I still feel, underneath it, there's something more basic for each individual
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes. Students and elders are the chance makers
    Aphrodite Macbain: change
    Calvino Rabeni: True
    Paradise Tennant: can see you three and the cushions you are on ..but sadly none of the other cushions that I know are lurking there
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Paradise Tennant: not always
    Paradise Tennant: sometimes it works the opposite
    Aphrodite Macbain: Pick a point between us!
    Paradise Tennant: can
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah well might you just stand over here ? :)
    Paradise Tennant: not click without seeing them
    Paradise Tennant: almost a profound metaphor there
    Calvino Rabeni: Because you look fully rezzed to us :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Aphrodite Macbain: hehe
    Aphrodite Macbain: No, shes' grey to me
    Paradise Tennant: ahh they arrived
    Aphrodite Macbain: as is Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, ok - the subjectivities of Second Life
    Aphrodite Macbain: yahoo! welcome to the cushions!
    Calvino Rabeni: This dress - reminds me the female equivalent of Hermes - almost like it could float and fly you away
    Aphrodite Macbain: what subjectivities are you referring to?
    Calvino Rabeni: Just the varying appearance of the SL world and other avatars
    Calvino Rabeni: There always seem to be differences
    Calvino Rabeni: as the world is built at different rates in each person's computer
    Paradise Tennant: sometimes I wonder if the real world is any more .. firm
    Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. I have short black hair today- yesterday it was long and red
    Calvino Rabeni: SO I'm here to myself, a cloud for others, etc.
    Paradise Tennant: quantum physics shows we are mostly air too
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Aphrodite Macbain: I can see you Calvino
    Paradise Tennant: we are all clouds :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Calvino (but I can't spell you)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Just as well we have our labels showing
    Calvino Rabeni: I have a somewhat old computer - so from a distance, avs look like a low-res pixel character on an old video game - they get elaborated with a closer view
    Calvino Rabeni: I showed Para that effect recently with 2 snapshots
    Aphrodite Macbain: I could come back in Emerald to see you all but I gather it's bad for my computer
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a lot like the dream world - stuff gets created just before you are aware of looking at it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I just set environment to "sunrise" - very pretty!
    Aphrodite Macbain: YES
    Paradise Tennant: likes sunset best
    Paradise Tennant: softer colors
    Aphrodite Macbain: Misty watercolor pixels
    Paradise Tennant: in emerald there is a default setting called bree's apple blossom which makes everything .. translucent .. shiny love that one too
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is it true that Emerald can damage your computer?

    Aphrodite Macbain: It's 8pm and I will turn into a pumpkin if I don't leave soon.
    Calvino Rabeni: That would go good with chicken and Brussels sprouts
    Paradise Tennant: still early in BC :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Thank you for giving me something to think about!
    Aphrodite Macbain: and making me laugh
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: YW Aphro - see you soon I hope :)
    Paradise Tennant: good night aph :) sweet dreams
    Aphrodite Macbain: Night night, Great to Be with you all
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It was enjoyable to meet you, Aphrodite and listen to your thoughts. You seem to have presence and insight ...
    Calvino Rabeni: That seems true, Mitzi :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: hehehe
    Paradise Tennant: a very big smiles .. such nice people in this group :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it's been working out well
    Calvino Rabeni: "Decisions help lift the veil and make us more real" .... A recent quote I came across
    Calvino Rabeni: It makes me think ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: it's harder to be caught up in habitual abstractions or distractions when you really have to decide about something hard core real.
    Calvino Rabeni: If the issue is forced ...and something has to happen, the abstract considerations may be deferred
    Calvino Rabeni: But what I'd like to know is, what conditions would afford / support people to be "more real" under less extreme circumstances?
    Calvino Rabeni: Like can life expand / evolve without as much crisis?
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Calvino Rabeni: I know crisis has a venerable reputation as a catalyst of change
    Calvino Rabeni: However, how about change in the "middle realm"
    Calvino Rabeni: As if we can assume it to be driven from within, not from external circumstances
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: the culture and role models that children are exposed to in early childhood? How real and nuanced they are
    Paradise Tennant: hmm crisis is usually subjective.. not always but usually :) .. if we step aside from the subjective .. there is a different picture ..often
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: such as ... when young boys in Tibet are taken to monasteries when they are like 3 years old ... that's a very different environment than a typical childhood and should "afford" a significantly different adult to emerge from that training
    Calvino Rabeni: The drive to change - to go beyond - has been given the general name of "Eros" - beyond the standard idea of sexuality - to refer to the movement to encounter Other, merge with it, and generate new worlds
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Wow! Calvino ... hadn't heard that particular characterization of Eros ... very exciting!!
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, sometimes ones are chosen by their clan to play a role seen even before their birth
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I think so too :)
    Paradise Tennant: did you see *the unmistaken child* ?
    Calvino Rabeni: No, what is that, Paradise?
    Paradise Tennant: movie
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: no - was it about Tibetan child lamas?
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: how they are recognized
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, well there are other cultures that see these things as not being exceptional - of happening in some way for everybody
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: the current Dalai Lama ... was born into an unremarkable peasant family ... and recognized ... he seems to be fulfilling his role quite nicely
    Paradise Tennant: to refer to the movement to encounter Other, merge with it, and generate new worlds
    Paradise Tennant: this is another way of saying step outside the subjective
    Paradise Tennant: see the bigger picture
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, Para - the movement to step beyond the limited circle of self
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: it seems like the more common movement is to encounter other, freak out and run away!!
    Calvino Rabeni: in that mythic view everyone has a essential form that they "come into the world with" and that is the key to understanding either their fate or their destiny
    Paradise Tennant: hmm mythic destiny .will require more wine .. one sec
    Calvino Rabeni: heheh more wine
    Calvino Rabeni: in vino veritas :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: would that mythic destiny be perceived as "other" to be merged with? If we are that out of touch with our essences ... ??
    Calvino Rabeni: That makes sense to me - interesting
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: sorry, I think that last utterance was a little hard to decipher
    Calvino Rabeni: One may be disidentified with the essential self
    Calvino Rabeni: and see its messages projected on Other

    Paradise Tennant: yes and sharp cheese and an apple ..the dog is all eyes .. and persistently sending me telepathic commands :)
    Calvino Rabeni imagines that Dog Face and its eyes
    Calvino Rabeni: Dogs are "quantum" by the way :) A small dog has all the energy of a large one, but packed into a smaller packet and thus vibrating at a faster frequency
    Paradise Tennant: so this mythic destiny .. speaks to the resonance of past lives ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Some believe that
    Calvino Rabeni: As a way to explain the way individuality could come to Be
    Calvino Rabeni: Seemingly hard to imagine it created somehow "out of nothing"
    Calvino Rabeni: And a way to identify or put it in relationship to the trans - individual
    Calvino Rabeni: Thus when someone is born, they are "already always" in a rich tapestry of relationship
    Paradise Tennant: what I find so amazing about babies is how unique and intense their personalities are from the get go .. the force of the presence
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: assuming the reality of past lives is a big leap for me, personally ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure
    Paradise Tennant: nods
    Paradise Tennant: me too
    Paradise Tennant: still makes me blink
    Calvino Rabeni: I have 2 kittens of the same mother - they are very different and individuated
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: agreed, about abilities, they are what they are right away, very distinctively
    Calvino Rabeni: It's not necessary to "buy into" a literal story of transmigration of souls or whatever
    Paradise Tennant: smiles fireworks here .. tomorrow is a holiday ..looking out my window at explosions of color .
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: but back to the "essential self" Calvino .... I think the interesting journey is to discover what in our lives is resonant with that deeper, truer sense of self, and what can be identified as a foreign intrusion
    Paradise Tennant: truer sense of self
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... and those artifacts can be removed as in a spring cleaning
    Paradise Tennant: thinking there is no self .. think I buy the Buddhist .. view
    Paradise Tennant: not really
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes mitzi I see that
    Calvino Rabeni: We might make a distinction between self-concept and some kind of "true self"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Atman is Brahman - the deepest part of our selves could be that void - but that part of us that cam out of the womb with specific tendencies, I think we are really talking about THAT self
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... in terms of essential self ... Calvino, do you concur ...
    Calvino Rabeni: just a sec ... please go on ...
    Calvino Rabeni: There are so many mythologies and terms for these ideas
    Calvino Rabeni: Soul for example, as the individuated and embodied aspect of spirit
    Calvino Rabeni: How could the same ideas be expressed in quasi-scientific terms?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or in ways compatible with modern ideas of human nature?
    Calvino Rabeni: The mythologies - including the scientific interpretations - are often "just so" stories
    Paradise Tennant: funny memories ..the fireworks just made me think of another labour day weekend long ago..at the cottage watching the local volunteer fire brigade put on a fire works display at the local beach .. .they set their barge on fire in front of the whole little town and had a heck of a time putting it out .. now that little memory is part of me .. but i am not sure what me really is
    Calvino Rabeni: A way of explaining certain aspects of a complex reality

    Calvino Rabeni: "Not sure what Me really is" ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm a burning barge, visible to the entire town :)
    Paradise Tennant: LOL so many red faces !
    Paradise Tennant: I collect pictures of groups of people trying to figure things out :)
    Paradise Tennant: have some lovely ones. ..
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I think of the pure "observer" in me as actually God in me. The essential, soulful me ...... that's a mystery that I am unraveling ... like Russian nesting dolls, peeling off layer after layer.
    Paradise Tennant: group of engineers holding up maps in the middle of the woods in front of a broken down train :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Paradise, I love that idea!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It's brilliant! And a tribute to humanity's willingness to explore, investigate ... why do you collect them?
    Paradise Tennant: they make me smile
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I'd love to see those
    Calvino Rabeni: And in fact, have you considered a book project ?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... or just a nice little blog post
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Paradise Tennant: would be a fun project
    Paradise Tennant: a book
    Paradise Tennant: could call it ponderings
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, some books are appealing in their particularity of focus
    Calvino Rabeni: You'd be uniting a general theme and the very particular situations
    Calvino Rabeni: For some reason it made me think of a book I saw recently - Slum Dogs of Calcutta
    Calvino Rabeni: Just pictures of street dogs
    Paradise Tennant: ooooooooo
    Paradise Tennant: sigh
    Paradise Tennant: ouch
    Calvino Rabeni: around them all the huge world of their setting and people
    Calvino Rabeni: It comes across as a testament to being in the world
    Calvino Rabeni: the resilience and interdependence of beings
    Paradise Tennant: what was the film where the photographer gave throw away cameras to the kids in the Calcutta red light district
    Paradise Tennant: they took beautiful photos
    Calvino Rabeni: and the fact that souls are embodied "in particular"
    Calvino Rabeni: and they make a life that is by all meaningful accounts, 100% complete
    Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking of the ideas you voiced recently, Mitzi, about group process
    Paradise Tennant: Born into Brothels . name of the film that illustrates what you are saying .
    Calvino Rabeni: I remember it coming out - haven't seen it - but that's the transcendent interpretation of the meaning of the film
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: when I was in India, I thought that people I saw on the streets were so much more alive and joyful than the ones I had just seen on the street in New York city
    Calvino Rabeni: And getting to know people
    Calvino Rabeni: My impressions similar during travel in Bangkok
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I just though ot "drop what you HAVE to see what you ARE - in terms of sheer materialism ... could be good advice!
    Paradise Tennant: well ..having is an illusion too

    Paradise Tennant: we are on a rental program
    Paradise Tennant: often when I buy something really nice I always think of who I will eventually want to give it too
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ha ha! indeed we are!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... "nothing is yours that can be lost in a shipwreck"
    Paradise Tennant: smiles including you :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that's one way of defining the essence
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: making lots of typos tonight ... typing quickly with less self-censoring and editing
    Calvino Rabeni: It makes me think of the concept of spiritual materialism
    Paradise Tennant: hmm there is a good book on that
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: uh huh?
    Paradise Tennant: so the essence is what survives the ship wreck ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Like everything learned, plus the "states" that seem to be achieved through some kind of spiritual "work"
    Calvino Rabeni: all are candidates for sacrifice, for giving away, for dedicating to some Other rather than clinging to
    Calvino Rabeni: They aren't achievements, if they can be lost or dropped
    Calvino Rabeni: So I guess I'm making a distinction between work in the self-concept, vs. work on the true self
    Calvino Rabeni: Does that make sense?
    Paradise Tennant: well except the true self .. that which survives the ship wreck ..
    Paradise Tennant: does it really need work ?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that varies in different philosophies
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: That's a good question there, Paradise
    Calvino Rabeni: Is your soul a given / eternal / fixed thing? Or something that evolves?
    Paradise Tennant: like the Buddha nature .. idea .. everyone has it equally .. it is un tarnishable ..
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I find the word "soul" confusing so I avoid it ... essence works better for me, for the concept I'm thinking of
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, well then how to do soul work, if one thinks it doesn't have any effect .. there are perhaps intermediate structures between the ephemeral self-concept and the idea of the eternal untarnished
    Calvino Rabeni: A mythology that says there's only this and that, would ignore those intermediate structures
    Calvino Rabeni: and then people would ignore them, not work with them
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Since we are here in these genetically determined bodies replete with specific tendencies ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... then working to peel off those arbitrarily incurred characteristics coming from family, culture, etc. would seem to me to be a very worthwhile and satisfying endeavor.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Like finding the Russian doll deepest within the net of shells
    Calvino Rabeni: When Cal says soul, it resonates with what Mitzi invokes with the word essence
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I can remember that, Calvino.
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: ok
    Paradise Tennant: you remove the layers
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm just afraid others won't get that ... Paradise might though!
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, just a note in your mental dictionary
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, all words have the "who says" slot in the mental dictionary
    Paradise Tennant: and
    Paradise Tennant: you have a self .. that is free from the constrictions of this life and its friction
    Paradise Tennant: but is that your true self
    Paradise Tennant: will that survive the ship wreck
    Paradise Tennant: nope
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: the ship wreck of death?
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: or
    Paradise Tennant: maybe ..not just death
    Paradise Tennant: maybe .. a voluntary .. capsize :)
    Paradise Tennant: a profound letting go
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: laughing so much ... a voluntary capsize!

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, what I was calling sacrifice, is the voluntary capsize .. maybe it's like housekeeping ...buying things but getting rid of other things on a continuous basis instead of occasionally crashing the whole boat
    Paradise Tennant: smiles having crashed the occasional boat ..much easier .. not too :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The traditions of fasting touch some of that
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ramadan
    Calvino Rabeni: Question - is there such a thing as the spiritual life without big dramas, crises, epiphanies?
    Paradise Tennant: there is rhythm to consumption .. I find when I eat a lot >>i want to eat a lot .. if I stop ..then I don't want to eat .. what you get use to I suspect
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I would say, depends on the individual ... and, further more ... earlier on, more so, later on, not so much ... as if I knew anything about it!!!
    Paradise Tennant: spiritual life .. does not need drama
    Paradise Tennant: though sometimes profound loss makes you wake up to it .. :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree - but the dramatic cases do get the attention - maybe they're easier to see the broad outlines of
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: No good deep goes unpunished ... so, it's inevitable that as one hews more and more closely to just what is true for them, that someone's feathers are going to get ruffled along the way
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that seems one of the questions for looking at group process
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: nice Freudian typo - "no good deep" going unpunished ...! probably what I really think.
    Calvino Rabeni: Eros has its aspect of penetration
    Calvino Rabeni: not just "beyond"direction, but deep also
    Calvino Rabeni: So thanks for instigating that, unintentionally
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Eros ... penetration ... well!!
    Calvino Rabeni: The mythological aspects are I think very important in creating the supporting and allowing context for group process, that I think you were considering earlier
    Paradise Tennant: smiles seems we are probing tonight :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and whether it is exciting, or frightening, has a lot to do with the idea context
    Calvino Rabeni: (sorry for the vague term, I mean the mythic in which it is experienced)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: tee hee
    Calvino Rabeni: What does it mean to "go deep" in learning, contemplation, or relating?
    Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't have to be sexualized as a metaphor
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: peel away layers? keep peeling? finding things that weren't evident initially.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Digging for treasure
    Calvino Rabeni: Finding the gold
    Calvino Rabeni: Journey to the underworld
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: going deep could be contrasted with going wide
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: If we only have x among of attention to spend, we could pick a narrower area and go into it in more detail; or if we go wide then can't go as deep ; always a calculation
    Calvino Rabeni: The idea of "penetration", seems to imply there was a somewhat solid mass ... on the other hand, more refined energies - like sound or scents - have the ability to fill space and mix together without losing their individuality
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: restrict the scope of the inquiry and uncover more detail or layers
    Paradise Tennant: another approach .. could involve not "going" .. no movement ...but rather stillness ..
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps the more refined energies aren't forced so much to that decision Mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: extreme depth in stillness -- such that the depth expands to encompass everything

    Paradise Tennant: I often think I am living two lives .. one is the normal day to day .. life busy schedule kind of life and the other is a hopscotch existence of rare but profound moments of stillness where .. existence .. is almost a different realm :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think there's *really* such a thing as stillness - the idea in my experience refers to increasingly subtle movement that is active
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes, a refined scent could be very penetrating ... interesting expansion of the concept Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: A subtle realm of experience, Paradise
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Calvino Rabeni: In martial arts one can get a direct feel for subtle forces moving large bodies
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: stillness .. is rare but it exists
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Wow, Paradise, and Wow, Calvino ... I'm glad I came tonight ... I am affected by both of these images
    Calvino Rabeni: the tai chi practitioner needs to experience the weight of a feather
    Calvino Rabeni: knowing it is possible to be moved entire, by that feather
    Calvino Rabeni: I know what you mean, Paradise
    Calvino Rabeni: I often feel I'm living those 2 lives at once in the same place and time
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, I guess that saves time and money :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Don't have to go on so many retreats
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: it does two for the price of one :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: or an infinite number for the price of one
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: And it seems important for the spiritual path to be able to fold together different practices into the same space/time
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a slow answer to the question - how can I have time for all this?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: almost like a sign ... if that is happening, you might be onto something
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: 'yes, by transcending time.
    Calvino Rabeni: In a sense yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe it's like in the movie "Inception" - did you see it?
    Calvino Rabeni: That there were in that story sub-levels of the mind that worked on faster time scales
    Calvino Rabeni: explaining how a dream telescopes time, a very long episode of dream life passes in a minute of external calendar time
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: No, haven't seen it - is it worthwhile then?
    Calvino Rabeni: due to the activity in parallel of the deep mind
    Paradise Tennant: sigh speaking of time .. I started to clean out my fridge .. in prep for going away and I have all manner of new evolving life forms some perhaps with souls .. who are mythically destined for a ship wreck :) :) but happily may only be dreaming :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles I have not seen it either but it is on my list :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I thought it a worthwhile popular movie, yes
    Calvino Rabeni: heheh Paradise - say hi to them
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps they consider you their goddess :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ah indeed, Been a pleasure, Paradise ... my local critters send their greetings to your microbes all the way from Colorado
    Calvino Rabeni: Great to chat with you as always, Paradise,
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: They say they are ecousins
    Calvino Rabeni: E-cousins, I like that
    Paradise Tennant: good night you two .. as always thanks you and a pleasure .. lol then I will be Kali ! :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Sleep well, Paradise :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Kai it is then :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ha ha! many interesting typos tonight. E-cousins indeed!
    Paradise Tennant: namaste .. or " I see the divine in you " :)
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Kali ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well speaking of Kali, the goddess of destruction ... I think I'll leave (hopefully without creating a natural disaster)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Nice job, Calvino, at elucidating depth from your participants ...
    Calvino Rabeni: TY Mitzi, have a great evening :)

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