2010.09.15 01:00 - Lao Tzu and the welfare state

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bolonath Crystal. The comments are by Bolonath Crystal.

    Bolonath Crystal: namaste :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hi bolonath ! ... :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes : the light inside, the inner light, also outside ... hm ... nice reminder ... (!) ;-)
    Bolonath Crystal: hm, something's wrong here... i think i have to log in once again
    Bertram Jacobus: ok
    Bolonath Crystal: brb
    Bertram Jacobus: wb - better now ? i can see you clearly
    Bolonath Crystal: there are cushions in the pool
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. no. here all normal. hm
    Bertram Jacobus: no cusions, in the pool ;-)
    Bolonath Crystal: omg, 20 sec lag...
    Bolonath Crystal: ah, better now
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe - feel compassion ... hm
    Bertram Jacobus: ah ! goood ! :-)
    Bolonath Crystal: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hey cal ! *wave* ... :-)
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Bolonath Crystal: long time no see. how are you?
    Calvino Rabeni: Very well, Bolo, and you?
    Bolonath Crystal: thx, great
    Bolonath Crystal: but too cold, lol
    Calvino Rabeni: You mean the cooling seasonal weather?
    Bolonath Crystal: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I notice it too - have not turned on the heating system yet
    Calvino Rabeni: Winter is on the way
    Bolonath Crystal: me too *g*
    Calvino Rabeni: Time to go back to lap blankets
    Bolonath Crystal: hehe :)
    Bolonath Crystal: soon i'll need somebody to take my slot
    Calvino Rabeni: What's changing?
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m very thankful to my turkish landlord, that he put the heating already on (!) but i only use it really few, may be a few hours in the last ten days ...
    Bolonath Crystal: i'm going to spent a lot of time at a place without internet
    Calvino Rabeni: A refuge from Internet Civilization?
    Bertram Jacobus: when will that be bolo ?
    Bolonath Crystal: i'm off in november
    Bolonath Crystal: it is very peaceful to live at a place without too much "wordly" troubles, but there are disadvantages as well.
    Bolonath Crystal: e.g. having no internet
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m happy and thankful that i can be here ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I think of having no internet as a kind of advantage :)
    Bolonath Crystal: hm... yes and no
    Bolonath Crystal: the disadvantage is that i can't attend pab meetings
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. and i will miss you bolo
    Bolonath Crystal: ty :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yvw ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: i take a look outside my window here and see an empty house with office rooms, many. and then i think about all the homeless people. will that ever end ? this hevy mismatch ?
    Bolonath Crystal: yes, probably. everything ends somewhen
    Bolonath Crystal: maybe not during my lifetime tho...
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. yes. you´re right for sure. nice reminder again (!) - i find this current situation ... nearly unbearable ... isn´t it ?
    Calvino Rabeni: The mismatch could be lightened by having some programmes to match people who don't have a place - and can take care of one - with places that don't have caretakers.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. i started a bit engagement on an idea which says, everybody should get a basic income without any duties for it.
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s a movement here in germany, already quite big, not small
    Bolonath Crystal: the green party introduced this thought long time ago - and everybody was laughing about it then
    Bertram Jacobus: sure - so things work and begin often
    Bolonath Crystal: if people would start to take care for their neighbors, all these political effords would be completely obsolete
    Calvino Rabeni: That reminds me of Lao Tzu
    Bolonath Crystal: how that?
    Bertram Jacobus: what does lao tzu say regarding to that ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Basically, when people don't do the obvious and the simple, then all complicated systems must arise to handle the situation
    Bolonath Crystal: thats alright with me as long as the system handles the situation in a positive manner
    Bolonath Crystal: which it doesn't (speaking about germany)
    Calvino Rabeni: Systems of welfare mean, one does not need to care for one's neighbors - that's the other side of it
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m content with much what happens here, see a lot of idealism in political and public life, but problems as well and much work always to do
    Calvino Rabeni: So you Bolo and Bert seem to be recommending opposite approaches in a way
    Calvino Rabeni: My own view is, the world doesn't work by simple means.
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe Lao Tsu would agree, maybe not?
    Bertram Jacobus: my recommending would be : you can help and work from many angles ...
    Bertram Jacobus: may be our views build our worlds, but i don´t know ...
    Bolonath Crystal: well, i have seen people taking care of each other - in countries without anything like welfare. but i still believe, that it is not necessary for people to suffer, before they start behaving...
    Calvino Rabeni: Here's the quote I was thinking - Tao Te Ching verse 19 - "Banish benevolence, discard righteousness - people will return to duty and compassion"
    Bertram Jacobus: discard
    Bertram Jacobus: oops - that should have been on another screen - (dictionary) ;-)
    Bolonath Crystal: discard - verwerfen
    Calvino Rabeni: And #18 - "When Great Tao is rejected - benevolence and righetousness appear"
    Bertram Jacobus: and 20 ?
    Calvino Rabeni: When family relations are forgotten, patriotism appears (#19)
    Bertram Jacobus: ah okay ... ty ...
    Calvino Rabeni: #20 - "Banish learning - no more grief ... Between good and evil - what's the difference.. Others are bright and intelligent - I alone am stupid and dull"
    Calvino Rabeni: It's not a recipe for living, in my opinion
    Bolonath Crystal: it is a recipe for ruling
    Calvino Rabeni: It's proposed as advice to rules, to have no recipes
    Calvino Rabeni: *rulers I meant
    Calvino Rabeni: I take it as a dialectic - to compensate for rulers getting too identified with their ideas and systems for control .
    Bertram Jacobus: i´ll leave - ty for this session ! may all beings be happy plz !
    Bolonath Crystal: bye bert
    Calvino Rabeni: Like saying - when there are complex systems, commonsense is forgotten
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: Bertram
    Bertram Jacobus: namsté ...
    Bolonath Crystal: i have to leave too
    Calvino Rabeni: I have also to leave :)
    Bolonath Crystal: bye cal, c u next time :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Be well, Bolonath :)

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