2010.09.15 13:00 - Who Will Save the World?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

    Bertram Jacobus: hey qt ! :-)
    Qt Core: Hi Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: how are you today - tonite ? ;-)
    Qt Core: a little stressed, weird days at work, you ?

    --BELL–

    Bertram Jacobus: ahrgh - "okay" - i try to take some pauses from such (weird work) - am off of work but have to start again soon i guess ...
    Bertram Jacobus: hey bruce ! :-)
    Qt Core: Hi Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Bert. Hey, Qt.
    Bertram Jacobus: may i ask qt ? : what is it that you called it "weird" ?
    Qt Core: let's say we tested some disaster recovery on our servers
    Bertram Jacobus: oh i see
    Qt Core: even if the kind of disaster we had is still unclear and let's stop it here ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: ok : stop, in the name of love (sounds in my mind) ... ;-)
    Qt Core: ;-) a nice soundtrack ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. happy you like it ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: hey Alfi ! :-)
    Alfred Kelberry: oi :)
    Qt Core: Hi Alfred
    Bruce Mowbray: Greetings once again, Alfred.
    Bruce Mowbray: Good evening, adoro.
    Qt Core: Hi Adoro
    Bertram Jacobus: hello adoro ! :-)
    adoro Rhapsody: hi folks
    Alfred Kelberry: btw, i was in the Buddha center and found out that in the early teachings, namely Pali canon, there was no mentioning of life as suffering. it must had come later in China maybe.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I have also heard that, Al.
    Bertram Jacobus: ehm - i don´t think that that is so, Alf (!) - because : as i know the Pali canon the first teaching even is about that, the First Noble Truth - no ?
    adoro Rhapsody: is there something about the balance between suffering and joy ?

    --BELL–

    Alfred Kelberry: the monk told me he has never come across this notion in Pali canon works
    Alfred Kelberry: that it also contradicts nirvana as eternal life
    adoro Rhapsody: well there must be a balance
    adoro Rhapsody: i cannot imagine a life with 100% suffering
    Bertram Jacobus: as i know it, it is as following : 1) in life is suffering 2) there are reasons for that 3) it´s possible to end suffering 4) there are means how to do that (followed by the so called "Eightfold Path")
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Bertram Jacobus: hi sharon ! :-)
    Qt Core: can't stay any longer, too sleepy
    Qt Core: hi Sophia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Bert, Qt, Bruce, adoro, Alfred :)
    adoro Rhapsody: sleep well qt
    Bruce Mowbray: Good night, Qt.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Qt
    Qt Core: bye all, have fun
    Alfred Kelberry: bert, right. it's what came later on.
    Bertram Jacobus: have a nice nite qt !
    Alfred Kelberry: night, spicy qt
    Bertram Jacobus: no. that were the very first teachings which the Buddha gave,  following the texts in the Pali canon, alf
    Alfred Kelberry: bert, that's what he said some claim :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Sharon.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I like your bird sounds Bert :)
    adoro Rhapsody: yes nice bird sounds here
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe ty sharon. i like them too very much. bought them for my plot - was so unnatural quiet there ... ;-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    adoro Rhapsody: well i have to go again
    Alfred Kelberry: well, i much prefer that life is not suffering, but then he pointed me that my uneasiness with this concept is in fact clinging :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye adoro
    adoro Rhapsody: bye all
    Bruce Mowbray: ok, adoro -- have a good night.
    Alfred Kelberry: oh, hi, sharon. didn't notice you :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :D
    Alfred Kelberry: what do you know of the Diamond Path?
    Bertram Jacobus: yeah, clinging. i know that very well, from myself ...
    Bruce Mowbray: My approach to the ancient teachings is rather lazy. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: I want to hear a line or two --- but rather than debating whether or not it is authentic...
    Bruce Mowbray: I prefer to hear how that line relates to here-and-now experiences of persons who follow that tradition.
    Bruce Mowbray: SO. . . for me, precepts must be experiences or else they are rather meaningless.
    Bertram Jacobus: Diamond Path i know as used a term by the quite famous lama ole nydahl - do you mean him and that ?
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, bert
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, the Zen way :)
    Bruce Mowbray: well, yes, I guess so. . .
    Bertram Jacobus: he is discussed very much, some people like him, some don´t. he is in a way quite modern. i think, he is on the one hand authorized to teach; on the other, one has to see, whether his approach fits for oneself
    Alfred Kelberry: bert, yes, from what i read he's a controversial figure
    Bertram Jacobus: to me, also experiences - but also using my mind are approaches to all the questions and answers one can have in life. but i have also always the thought in my mind that all my experiencing and thinking can be totally wrong. but i find that ok ...
    Alfred Kelberry: i think if i should go visit their center
    Bertram Jacobus: exactly so alf
    Alfred Kelberry: bert, maybe it's clinging, too :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia Googles Diamond Path and sips tea
    Alfred Kelberry: sophia :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. i would not advise against it. but maybe mention, that he has a quite special approach - very interesting i would say, especially for persons who are able to differ, who are at least a bit awake ... ;-)
    Alfred Kelberry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Way_Buddhism
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thank you
    Alfred Kelberry: bert, what is this special approach?
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I am interested in hearing how it is "special" and why he is considered by some to be a cult leader.

    --BELL–

    Alfred Kelberry: "cult" - i don't like this word
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s kind of modern and already far developed for our westerners culture. and that will happen anyway and is not "wrong" so to say : buddhism in all countries and times was "allowed" to change it´s outer appearance. "cult" may be because he is a quite charismatic person. so that is not easy to avoid that some people make such a behaviour around him. But not necessarily so to do, not for us for example
    Bruce Mowbray: "Cult" is a strong word -- I agree - and am wondering why there are so many links to this man as having "cult" followers.
    Alfred Kelberry: hmm...
    Alfred Kelberry: thank you, Bruce
    Bertram Jacobus: he has a lot of power and spread his organization all over the world in a large range. so you find a lot about his work
    Bruce Mowbray: By saying "Diamond Way" -- does that mean that he specifically bases his teachings on the Diamond Sutra?
    Alfred Kelberry: so, as i see it's a specialized approach for western world and in this quite vanguard
    Bruce Mowbray: ok.
    Bertram Jacobus: but i would say, everybody should find his own view about this special angle and approach. there are so many (!) - and i agree in the way to try especially such things by one´s own
    Bruce Mowbray: I'd never heard of him before a few minutes ago. . . so I will do research later.
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. not that i knew alf, but may be. i know him and his organization quite well although i was never a member of that so to call "sangha" or community and didn´t notice in many encounters that the Diamond Sutra would have a special weight there - but may be in the background. i´m not sure about it ...
    Bruce Mowbray: ok.
    Alfred Kelberry: hmm, as for being a "cult," i think it's not the man himself, but those around him who make him one... or is it not?
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, both elements can play a role in that alf
    Bruce Mowbray: When I hear some teaching - - for example, "life is suffering" or "all is emptiness" or "there is no self" ---  I would prefer to hear individuals' experiences with those things.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh I see the dilemma now, i wasn't sure what it was at first
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the controversy I mean
    Bruce Mowbray: Life for me is NOT all about suffering, nor am I entirely sure there is no "self" - and about "emptiness" I have many experiences (some of them contradictory to each other).
    Bruce Mowbray: So, in dialogue with others who also consider themselves to be on the path, it helps me to sort these things out if I hear about personal experience.
    Bruce Mowbray: also to keep them in flow -- dynamic, not tightly packaged under some title, like "Official Truth."
    Bertram Jacobus: that is a thing which very often happens, Bruce: that only that first so called noble truth is discussed, but without the other three a quite wrong and uncomplete picture arises !
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, yes, i'd like to hear that, too. although, i like to know the theoretical basis from what these experiences arise, as well. it gives a nice structure to begin with.
    Bruce Mowbray: good point! So, how then do we experience the Four Noble Truths in our own lives?
    Bertram Jacobus: about suffering, for example, it is said in some lineages, that one can divide it into three groups - and the more subtle the field is, the more difficult to see or experience
    Bertram Jacobus: the first is easy : all we call normally suffering
    Alfred Kelberry: um, first you learn what these truths are in words, then talk to lama, then try to experience them... i think
    Bertram Jacobus: the second one is the suffering of the constant change: all, also the from us as nice considered things and situations disappear again
    Alfred Kelberry: didn't know about 3 groups
    Bruce Mowbray listens carefully.
    Bertram Jacobus: and the third one nearly nobody seems to feel : the suffering simply from the fact that without being complete - always one is divided, misses things, or is together with ones one doesn´t like. as said - can be really subtle
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Lawrence.
    Alfred Kelberry: bert, i didn't get this part: "all, also the from us as nice considered things and situations disappear again"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Lawrence, long time no see, welcome :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hi, Lawrence :-)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Hi, everyone.
    Alfred Kelberry: Lawrence, our second encounter today :)

    --BELL–

    Bertram Jacobus: and if i may say so : i feel also that third form very intense (to meet Bruce´s wish that we can tell it out of our own lives, from personal experience)
    Bertram Jacobus: and alf :
    Alfred Kelberry: bert, can you please share the 3rd form experience?
    Bertram Jacobus: sry. may be i didn´t express very well : that should have meant : all about changing : beloved people for example : they will disappear again : comfortable situations : as well. and all such - bad and good always change
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, "suffering" comes in many forms and can be infinitely subtle....
    Bertram Jacobus: i try to alf :
    Bruce Mowbray listens again.
    Bertram Jacobus: i found that out as i thought about wishes and fulfillment and thought like this about that :
    Alfred Kelberry: bert, oh, ok... transient characteristics of all things
    Bertram Jacobus: when wish and fulfillment don´t come together, so to say, normally there is suffering, more or less. don´t take that wort to literally please. can also be only a bit disappointing and many other forms, light and heavy ones
    Bertram Jacobus: but when wish and fulfillment come together - we are normally happy, very happy for a while - don´t be too tricky to find out the special constructions, which seem to be exceptions here - they could be included but would lead to far i think
    Bruce Mowbray: May I share a specific example?  I think it relates to what Bert is saying.
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, please. i was just trying to come up with one :)
    Bruce Mowbray: It just happened about an hour ago.
    Bruce Mowbray: In 2002 I had a friend who was a cocaine addict. . .
    Lawrence Vyceratops: anyone care to share what the discussion is about, very briefly?
    Bruce Mowbray: I offered him a "Safe" house away from his addict friends and drug dealers,,,,, here at the farm.
    Bruce Mowbray: He accepted my offer.
    Bertram Jacobus: and then i took the principle from here : when things REALLY come together - happiness comes up. when they are divided, there is a lack : suffering . but often i even when i talk in German about that, the others don´t understand (only very seldom it meets understanding, sadly)
    Alfred Kelberry: @ lawrence, degrees of suffering
    Bruce Mowbray: Within a couple of weeks, I learned that in the early morning hours he was secretly dealing very serious drugs from my driveway at the farm... like at 3 a.m.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: ah, thank you
    Bruce Mowbray: OK -- We had a man-to-man talk and I told him that he had to leave.
    Bruce Mowbray: Months later he entered the army -- and continued to write me.
    Bruce Mowbray: I last saw him EIGHT years ago, , , , but today he came by the farm -- on leave from the army.
    Bruce Mowbray: I was out walking with my dog when he came -- so he left a note on my door.
    Bruce Mowbray: I missed seeing him -- one chance in eight years!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wow
    Bruce Mowbray: So, I am suffering -- somewhat -- right now about that.
    Bruce Mowbray: [finished]
    Alfred Kelberry: thank you, Bruce
    Bertram Jacobus: ty2
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you for listening.
    Bruce Mowbray: I guess my point is -- it helps me much more to be able to share this experiencer with you --
    than it does to hear the teaching ---- "Oh! I see your problem---- All life is suffering -- and there you are!!!"
    Alfred Kelberry: so, it's a wish to be complete in friendship that was not fulfilled?
    Bruce Mowbray: No -- actually I hoped when he left the farm in 2002 that I would never see him again.
    Alfred Kelberry: Bruce, yes... but it's a good context for the story
    Bruce Mowbray: But I cared very much for his welfare and safety -- especially going to fight in wars.
    Bruce Mowbray: (and also with his addiction)
    Alfred Kelberry: hmm
    Bruce Mowbray: so, 8 years later, here he is -- and I missed him.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes, i would see it like that. "but" : there are so many angles, so many approaches ! and it´s nice when we find some which works for us
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes -- I agree with you on that, Bert.
    Bruce Mowbray: To summarize my point -- religion, for me, is a LIVED experience -- not JUST a collection of "truths" passed down through a tradition.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Bertram Jacobus: religion to me means all which leads to something which goes beyond relativity so to say ...

    --BELL–

    Bertram Jacobus: and that is also lived experience . yes. but can be ALSO traditional truths which are taught - at least for me that is so ... but i think, i know what you mean Bruce : it should not be dead and cold ...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye everyone :D have a pleasant day... afternoon... night... didn't intend to sit here so quiet, but thankful for it
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, bert, and this is how we (i think) try to really understand and see subtleness in (possibly) "dry" words of theoretical teaching (which is, again, very important for setting up the context)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye for now :))
    Bruce Mowbray: Have a wonderful day, Sharon.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Bye, Sophia
    Alfred Kelberry: i enjoyed your presence, Sophia :)
    Bertram Jacobus: bfn Sharon ! *wave* ... :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: waves
    Alfred Kelberry: i'm afk for a while...
    Bruce Mowbray: I think, perhaps, that what's going on with me this week is that "frames" are falling away.  Eevery sort of frame is falling away  (the boxes that I tend to think in).
    Bruce Mowbray: because of Pema's Chapter 5 ---  for our Time as Magic group.  It is VERY powerful. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: And I notice that I no longer am thinking in "frames" --- but with something larger than that.
    Bertram Jacobus: my impression is, alf, that more people are a bit more practical and a more theoretical approach is not for so many useful. but i must admit, i´m one of those few, sometimes even a hindrance in communication . i have and like to work still on this ...
    Bruce Mowbray: So, it also is the same, for me, with religion -- the "frames" (religious packages) seem to fall away for me now.
    Bertram Jacobus: sounds great Bruce ! :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: "great" in a way, yes. . . but also VERY scary -- as Pema says in the chapter. . . "always able to fall over the cliff" (his words).
    Bruce Mowbray: We built those frames for a reason!  Like clothes -- and now suddenly to go naked!?  scary!
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Fef!
    Fefonz Quan: hi all :)
    Bertram Jacobus: i see. but ... for sure i hope, that you won´t fall ... and i´m even quite confident about that ! ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: hi fefonz ! :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Pema makes the point that there is 100% chance that we all will fall, eventually - - - -
    Bruce Mowbray: but I appreciate your meaning, Bert, and thank you for it.
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. okay - then the other point : that you won´t be too scared about it ;o)
    Fefonz Quan: (who is falling where?)
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, that I also appreciate. ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: "falling" out of the framework of our lives.. and beliefs.
    Fefonz Quan: Ah, that one...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: How nice that would be.
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Simply letting go of the frames - - - (Pema's chapter 5) --- or at least that's what it has been for me this week,
    Bruce Mowbray: Very liberating --- also very scary.
    Fefonz Quan: somehow i can't claim the recording, can any of you do that? nothing happen when i click the fountain bases when i
    Bertram Jacobus: Bruce already did
    Bruce Mowbray: I have claimed it already. . . What would you like to do now, Fef?
    Bruce Mowbray: I am happy to be responsible for it.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I always have the one topic in mind. ;) heheh
    Bruce Mowbray: What is that, Lawrence?
    Bruce Mowbray listens intently.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Why are we here? what are we looking for, ultimately?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: What is our motive?
    Bruce Mowbray: My motive today, I confess, was to seek emotional support.  And I have received that -  abundantly.
    Bruce Mowbray: What is your motive, Lawrence?
    Bertram Jacobus: to me, these days the fact that i don´t really know and can accept it is kinda solution to me, Lawrence ...
    Fefonz Quan: Thanks Bruce, it's ok that you take care of it, or you can send me a link afterwards, till i sort out the bug with Wol
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I am concerned about our civilization, our humanity, the future of mankind.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: We are terribly suffering. There is great poverty, wars, and depression.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: This is always my concern.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Lawrence, emotionally overwhelming to me, also.
    Fefonz Quan: and there has always been, hasn't it Lawrence?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: As far as recorded history goes, I should say so.
    Bruce Mowbray: I cannot really se a "solution" to today's problems, though.
    Bertram Jacobus: and however the unknown may be - one thing seems to me always be right Lawrence : to love, all including and without any conditions .
    Lawrence Vyceratops: A terrible problem that we face today because it is destroying our world.

    --BELL–

    Fefonz Quan: what is destroying the world?
    Bruce Mowbray senses that now he's going to need MORE emotional support. . . . ;-)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: It is our thinking which is destroying the world.
    Bertram Jacobus: therefore i said and it´s my conviction and feeling too : love is the answer, the unlimited one
    Lawrence Vyceratops: We are not focused on the underlying problems that face humanity.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: The problems of starvation, of clothing, shelter, and good medicine. We focus on the secondary.
    Bertram Jacobus: and it´s work, can be work, motivation as well - a Buddhistic teacher once gave me a lesson in only four words and they were : "Always help, never harm"
    Fefonz Quan: for me somehow those issues, though sound realistic, are on a very abstract level
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I feel we must put the those problems first, always.
    Fefonz Quan: which problems?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: The problems of poverty, war, depression, etc.
    Bruce Mowbray thinks: Although what Lawrence says is true, my concern is that he - personally - not be overwhelmed by those facts.
    Fefonz Quan: what can you do personally to keep those problems first?
    Fefonz Quan nods to Bruce
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Discuss them with others. Bring attention to them. We are so distracted.
    Bruce Mowbray nods back to Fef.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: We rarely ask ourselves: "Why do I seek religion? Why do i seek community?"                
    Lawrence Vyceratops: We only want to "feel better" at the moment.
    Fefonz Quan: well, I don't seek religion
    Lawrence Vyceratops: So, we seek secondary things.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Humans, in general.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: religion / spirituality, whatever.
    Fefonz Quan: Well, some do, and some don't.  most of the people around me don't neither
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, some seek entertainment.
    Fefonz Quan: yes, some seek entertainment. is that wrong?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: The world is being destroyed. And we only look at the TV schedule. Not wrong, just strange.
    Bruce Mowbray: We play the fiddle while Rome burns. . .
    Fefonz Quan: in fact most of their time is going towards working, growing their children, etc. then some 10% is left for entertainment. is that destroying the world in your opinion?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Civilization
    Lawrence Vyceratops: We don't focus on the problems of humanity, civilization - mostly we focus on ourselves and our own family. Mankind is our family.
    Bruce Mowbray: Lawrence makes a wonderful point.
    Fefonz Quan: maybe in a way, yet our resources are limited, so we choose where to spend them - and our family is not the last choice
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Our resources are not so limited - our politics are what limit us.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Technology has produced great abundance. Policy has produced much detriment.
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s late - i´ll leave - ty all very much for the talks , the community ! ... may all beings be happy plz ... *wave* ...
    Fefonz Quan: I am not sure about this point, Bruce. in generalizing it seems like a good point, but when i look at it in a practical way, i find it harder to comprehend
    Lawrence Vyceratops: By, Bert.
    Fefonz Quan: night Bert!
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Bert. Have a great day.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Let us discuss further then, Fefonz.
    Bertram Jacobus: ty2 again
    Fefonz Quan: Do you feel politics limit your personal resources?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Absolutely. Politicians make decisions they know nothing about. What does a politician know about environment? He knows how to persuade and manipulate. That is no good for humanity nor civilization.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: hi, Koya
    Fefonz Quan: In principle I agree. the world is not run by optimal rulers.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I mean, Arch. ;)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: There should be no rulers.
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Lawrence and everyone
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi Arch --Hi Dream.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: What ruler could possibly be optimal?
    Fefonz Quan: well, some revolutions that tried similar ideas ended up very badly
    Lawrence Vyceratops: hi, Dream
    Dream Wrexan: Hi, there
    Dream Wrexan: I'm surprised to see folks here
    Fefonz Quan: of course rulers will never be optimal
    Lawrence Vyceratops: What is revolution?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: for?
    Bruce Mowbray: Gandhi - 'Be the change you seek for the world.'
    Fefonz Quan: (the communist one for example)
    Fefonz Quan: well, I don't know even how to bring up a small project without project manager - let alone a whole country

    --BELL–

    Lawrence Vyceratops: A project manager knows about the project, the science, the working. A politician knows nothing.
    Dream Wrexan: I've had project managers who were politicians :-/
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Yikes! heheh
    Fefonz Quan: maybe i present my point in a too twisted way.
    Dream Wrexan: I think politics is an art more than a useful skill
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Definitely not useful, I agree! haha
    Fefonz Quan: so I'll try to say it more directly: I sympathize a lot with your frustration about politicians and their way. and sometimes i suffer a lot because of the inner conflicts it creates in me (anger etc.) but is complaining about it helping me or anyone else?
    Dream Wrexan: well, I take that back - there is some use in being able to convince folks of your point of view
    Bruce Mowbray: Someone once said: "Politics is the art of the possible," but I disagree. I think politics is the art of the probable.
    Dream Wrexan: yes, Bruce - that gets at my own viewpoint just made
    Archmage Atlantis: Politics and politicians serve a role in society
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Who is complaining? I hope we can look at it investigatively .
    Archmage Atlantis: Unfortunately, too many can be bought
    Lawrence Vyceratops: They may serve a role, but what is the purpose of that role? Does civilization benefit?
    Fefonz Quan: what do we investigate? why politicians act the way they do?
    Dream Wrexan: Arch - then the PAC becomes the politician and the politician just a figurehead
    Lawrence Vyceratops: That is near the heart of the problem also, Arch. Money.
    Fefonz Quan: the purpose of that role is trying to run communities and countries, Lawrence
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Investigate into why we allow politicians to rule us. What benefit are they? They are damaging to society.
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes - to both Dream and Lawrence
    Dream Wrexan: Lawrence, I think that's the core question - what is the role of politics?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Politics is useless in our society.
    Fefonz Quan: we allow them to rule us because: 1) we didn't manage to find a better way to do it,  and b) because we don't want to do it ourselves
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Politics is corrupt and not interested in humanity.
    Dream Wrexan: Politicians rule us only when we forfeit our own involvement
    Archmage Atlantis: In a pure representative democracy, politicians represent the desires of their constituents
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I m not sure I agree with that. Most people want to contribute, but they are taught that others know best.
    Dream Wrexan: Precisely, Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Not everyone wants to govern
    Dream Wrexan: I think that's a lazy way out, Lawrence
    Lawrence Vyceratops: People need to be educated, informed.
    Dream Wrexan: They could learn
    Archmage Atlantis: Agrees with Dream
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Education is kept from most.
    Fefonz Quan: no, most people want to live their lives peacefully, do interesting stuff and not bother about boring politics and the logistics of maintaining a state
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Information is controlled.
    Bruce Mowbray sees a parallel with the earlier part of this session: taking responsibility for ourselves. Some "gurus" and "masters" can be damaging to individual spiritual development.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, politics is boring and should be done away with.
    Fefonz Quan: Information is controlled not only by politics, but also by the media, film makers, wiki editors etc.
    Bruce Mowbray is shocked -- " Wiki editors" !?
    Bruce Mowbray did not realize he had that much power.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Politics is damaging to people.
    Dream Wrexan: so is Disneyworld
    Archmage Atlantis: Then what is your proposal as alternative, Lawrence?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: How many have been killed in Iraq now?
    Fefonz Quan: well i disagree. bad politics harm, good politics benefit
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I don't know what you mean by good bad politics.
    Fefonz Quan: :-)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I propose that we all discuss the equality of all mankind and really look at what that means.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: In a political system, people are not viewed as equal. There is hierarchy.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: It is important for everyone to become informed. To become educated.
    Fefonz Quan: hierarchy in some senses, not all of them
    Fefonz Quan: for example, i have much more freedom than the president of the USA
    Fefonz Quan: my time is more free, i freely decide what i do this weekend and this evening
    Fefonz Quan: so am i above him in your hierarchy?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Are you truly free as you say?
    Fefonz Quan: not totally, just more than the other guy
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I suppose that depends.
    Dream Wrexan: Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose (J. Joplin) :-)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Are we free to study whatever we want? Are we free to go wherever we want?
    Fefonz Quan: I agree. that was just an example of the fluidity of defined hierarchy
    Fefonz Quan: yay :) (Dream)
    Fefonz Quan: I am free to study whatever i want, yes
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Hierarchy, there is a class system. One set of people more powerful over other sets.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Tell that to a young boy in Honduras.
    Fefonz Quan: well, you said "we."
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Where is his freedom?
    Bruce Mowbray: How about: 'Freedom's a word for realizing we are not what we have? - nor what we do NOT have, for that matter?'
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Freedom is mostly meaningless. ;)  In our society
    Dream Wrexan: I like the simple life myself, Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: me too, Dream -- and I often find that people who "have less" are freer than I, who have more.
    Fefonz Quan: Lawrence, I'm still trying to figure out your point.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: My point is that there should be awareness that each human is a human being.
    Fefonz Quan: (apart from that there are people that suffer more than others)

    --BELL–  

    Lawrence Vyceratops: We should be focused on problems that affect ALL mankind.
    Fefonz Quan: (and that the world is not perfect)
    Archmage Atlantis: Freedom and equality are both constrained by ability and circumstance....they are ideals
    Fefonz Quan nods to Arch
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Not just one community, one nation, one people.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: ALL.
    Dream Wrexan: Much of the world still operates out of a tribal frame of mind (much of the US included)
    Fefonz Quan: that is a very nice ideal, Lawr, but can I personally do something for ALL mankind?
    Dream Wrexan: I think we can, Fefonz
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, you can keep these problems first and foremost. Talk to everyone about them.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: So that they become first and foremost n the minds of others.
    Fefonz Quan: and if i do, should this be my primary priority?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, absolutely.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: What is EVERYONE's goal in everyday life?
    Archmage Atlantis: Right, Fefonz....and even more, how do I know that what I do is the best thing for each individual in the world
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Without exclusion?
    Dream Wrexan: We each pick our "battles" however, due to time limits
    Fefonz Quan: I am not sure about it. Everybody knows about those problems, and everybody reads the newspaper
    Lawrence Vyceratops: It is not foremost on their minds, however.
    Dream Wrexan: Still a question of resources
    Fefonz Quan: yes, we pick our battles, that's a good phrasing
    Lawrence Vyceratops: what is Everyone's goal in everyday life?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Every single day?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Everyone, without exception?
    Fefonz Quan: to be happy.
    Dream Wrexan: be happy
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Food.
    Dream Wrexan ^5's Fefonz
    Lawrence Vyceratops: To eat.
    Dream Wrexan: Food makes me happy :-)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: We go to work to get food.
    Archmage Atlantis: To live a life with meaning
    Lawrence Vyceratops: We study to get a good job to get food.
    Dream Wrexan: hmmm... I sniff a Maslow discussion coming
    Fefonz Quan: ok, food precedes happy, but that's to a certain pont.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: This problem should be first and foremost.
    Archmage Atlantis: But I have to eat, to feed my non-human companions, do personal toiletry, etc.
    Dream Wrexan: Survival is always #1
    Bruce Mowbray: Survival first -- the hierarchy of needs, leading to self-realization. . .
    Fefonz Quan nods to Bruce.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Right. Food to survive, to live another day.
    Alfred Kelberry: hello, once again :)
    Dream Wrexan: I called it - Maslow :-)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Alf!
    Dream Wrexan: wb, Alf
    Bruce Mowbray: yeppers. Nods to Dream.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: If we are not concerned about essentials human problems, how serious can we possibly be?
    Alfred Kelberry: I've been reading the chat log as i was logged off. Lawrence, you're on to a big picture :)
    Fefonz Quan: So what do you suggest about the food, Lawr?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: We should discuss this.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Everyday with everyone.
    Alfred Kelberry: fef! :) so nice to see you :) i must admit, i missed you :)
    Archmage Atlantis: There is actually and extension to Maslow's work that describes the concepts even more thoroughly, but I'm afraid I can't remember what it was called
    Fefonz Quan: me too alf :) you have cubed a little since last time
    Lawrence Vyceratops: This should be first and foremost.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Maslow?
    Alfred Kelberry: fef, heh, yes... a little :)
    Dream Wrexan: Our local food kitchen has become a primary social emphasis with the economic downturn
    Alfred Kelberry: fef, how is your... wife now, i think? :)
    Dream Wrexan: Maslow first delineated the hierarchy of needs
    Fefonz Quan: welll Alf, pregnant I am happy to say :))
    Alfred Kelberry: yay! :)
    Alfred Kelberry: mazel tov :)
    Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
    Dream Wrexan: A Theory of Human Motivation (1943)
    Dream Wrexan pictures little jewelry boxes deposited around the circle
    Lawrence Vyceratops: That sounds interesting, Dream. People rarely notice their motives.
    Fefonz Quan: (we say that afterwards, but thanks anyway :))
    Alfred Kelberry: oh, sorry :)
    Fefonz Quan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
    Archmage Atlantis: Got to go, congrats Fefonz, later all
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Bye, Arch.
    Fefonz Quan: By Arch, thanks
    Bruce Mowbray: How would it be with you, Lawrence, if each person studied the Hierarchy of Needs and selected a place to contribute. . .?   so some would help others find food. . .
    Bruce Mowbray: some would help other become educated. . .
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I am not familiar with Maslow
    Bruce Mowbray: some would help others to become self-actualized.
    Bruce Mowbray: Would that work for you?
    Fefonz Quan: Maslow's pyramid of needs put the survival need at the basis
    Lawrence Vyceratops: that sounds interesting.
    Dream Wrexan: Yes, Ewan's home - I'd better feed him. :-)
    Dream Wrexan: Bye all.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, survival is the basis -- but not necessarily the place where our individual efforts should be placed.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Bye, Dream
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Dream Thanks!
    Fefonz Quan: than then some things like keeping warm, having a nice community, good relationships etc.
    Fefonz Quan: bye dream
    Fefonz Quan: and up to the top, where it puts self-actualization
    Bruce Mowbray: Dream just made a choice. . . .
    Bruce Mowbray: So, some will work to alleviate hunger...
    Bruce Mowbray: others will be educators. . .   others will be spiritual masters.
    Fefonz Quan: and some will create music and films to entertain others!
    Bruce Mowbray: yes!
    Alfred Kelberry: and some will program it all :)
    Bruce Mowbray: And some will be politicians.... with the best intentions in the world, perhaps, when they begin.
    Fefonz Quan: (Ziggy plays guitar, pom pom pom...)
    Alfred Kelberry: ziggy?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: OK. So, I think people all over the world should be aware of the problems that our civilization faces.
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I see no use for politicians...

    --BELL--

    Fefonz Quan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_Ziggy_Stardust_and_the_Spiders_from_Mars
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, i wonder if all intentions start as good
    Lawrence Vyceratops: My time is up! :) Good talking to you all.
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Lawrence, have a good night
    Bruce Mowbray: THANKS, Lawrence!
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Bye, guys! :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: YW? ;)
    Bruce Mowbray: I am grateful that Lawrence (and everyone else) expresses his/her ideas.
    Fefonz Quan: It was a long conversation, i am not sure we managed to present both sides' ideas completely
    Alfred Kelberry: Lawrence sure brought a wider awareness in today's session
    Fefonz Quan: yes he did alf.
    Bruce Mowbray: But to me it is important that each person have a chance to say what's on their minds --- and I think we've accomplished that, to some extent anyway.
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Alfred Kelberry: i do think of it sometimes, and it is... daunting when you think of the scale of it. how can we change it? is it even possible?
    Bruce Mowbray: Just putting out one's feelings is important. . . whether or not they are agreed with.
    Fefonz Quan: I agree with bruce.
    Fefonz Quan: and alf - the cliche - change comes from within - may be true sometimes
    Bruce Mowbray: I try not to think about whether saving the world is possible because it renders me emotionally overwhelmed and sometimes hopeless.
    Fefonz Quan: I believe in starting from a close circle, then widen it up if you desire
    Bruce Mowbray: Just dig in and do what you can....
    Alfred Kelberry: oh, yes, bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Sometimes, Tonglen is all that I feel capable of doing for a situation.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yet, Tonglen seems appropriate and ‘enough' at the time.
    Fefonz Quan: For me i use that as a place to do work - on myself. increase my acceptance to what happens
    Bruce Mowbray: yes.
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, guys, it is supper-time here -- and I must be away.
    Bruce Mowbray: (tending to the base of the pyramid, you know).
    Fefonz Quan: Fighting all the "wrongs" in the world lead to a lot of suffering, and is very un-inclusive
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: agrees with Fef,.
    Bruce Mowbray: Do what you can do, folks.  Bye!
    Fefonz Quan: may you have a firm base
    Alfred Kelberry: the thing is, you sure can help a starving family in Africa, or even save a village, but how can you change the system that let it happen in the first place?
    Alfred Kelberry: see you, bruce
    Alfred Kelberry: well, it's a long conversation :)
    Fefonz Quan: maybe if you can learn the roots for the behavior that makes people starve others
    Fefonz Quan: you can start to see the way out
    Fefonz Quan: (Sure, if you are very rich donations are always welcome :))
    Alfred Kelberry: from one study i read that we have enough food (with excess even) to feed everyone on the planet
    Fefonz Quan: yes, but the distribution is the catch...
    Alfred Kelberry: as for donations... it's been going in vast amounts to Africa, but hardly much has changed. in many cases, money just being taken away by the local governments.
    Fefonz Quan: yes, so it's not just the total amount of food and money. It's the people that treat their brothers badly.
    Fefonz Quan: It's a worthy issue, yet sleeping hours are short...
    Alfred Kelberry: so true :) we have to keep ourselves well rested to face such global issues :)
    Fefonz Quan: maybe we should encourage Lawrence to do a theme session about it
    Fefonz Quan: exactly :)
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, a good idea
    Fefonz Quan: Good night, take care and good seeing you!
    Alfred Kelberry: night, fef. great seeing you :)

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