2010.09.17 01:00 - Twice hearing is not twice listening

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    Wol Euler was guardian for this session.

     

    adoro Rhapsody: hi wol
    Wol Euler: hello adoro
    Wol Euler: how are you this morning/afternoon/evening/night?
    adoro Rhapsody: yrs its morning here
    adoro Rhapsody: 10.02 am
    adoro Rhapsody: and with u ?
    Wol Euler: ah, we're in the same timezone
    adoro Rhapsody: european ?
    Wol Euler: Germany
    adoro Rhapsody: i am dutch
    Wol Euler: most people at this session are Euros, or insomniacs
    adoro Rhapsody: holland here
    Wol Euler: ah :)
    adoro Rhapsody: guten morgen Wol
    Wol Euler: goede tag, adoro
    adoro Rhapsody: danke
    Wol Euler: but that's as far as my Dutch goes.
    adoro Rhapsody: i weiss ein bitchen deutch
    adoro Rhapsody: aus bei mit nach zeit von zu
    adoro Rhapsody: dritten fall
    Wol Euler: I was in Holland for nearly two months, a few years back. I couldn't pick up any of the language, as soon as people heard that I spoke English (from my accent) they switched to that.
    adoro Rhapsody: i do also
    Wol Euler: it's convenient for the tourists, sure, but it makes it harder to learn hte language
    adoro Rhapsody: aber ich hatte eine gute lehrerin Deutsch
    adoro Rhapsody: und wir in Holland haben ein complex
    adoro Rhapsody: dass wir die andere spreche lernen sollen
    Wol Euler: ach so, das :)
    Wol Euler: finde ich aber gut!
    adoro Rhapsody: because dutch is a small languague area
    adoro Rhapsody: in the world
    Wol Euler nods.
    Wol Euler: and surely also because it's a good idea?
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Wol Euler: learning anohter language teaches you so much about your own!
    adoro Rhapsody: we are small language but large traders
    adoro Rhapsody: Rotterdam lives of export
    adoro Rhapsody: fur die innen welt macht es nichts aus
    adoro Rhapsody: nur worte
    adoro Rhapsody: aber auch a way of thinking in words
    adoro Rhapsody: some languages have other words for emaotions and felings
    Wol Euler: yep
    adoro Rhapsody: emotions
    adoro Rhapsody: and feelings

     

    Languages and their words.


    Wol Euler: it's amazing to see which words are missing from which languages
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    Wol Euler: English distinguishes between an ache and a pain
    Wol Euler: German doesn't, there is only one word
    adoro Rhapsody: in dutch too one word
    adoro Rhapsody: pijn
    Wol Euler nods.
    Wol Euler: cultures invent the words that they need.
    adoro Rhapsody: and the difference between luck and happyness
    adoro Rhapsody: wir nennen das gluck
    adoro Rhapsody: of wij noemen dat allebei geluk
    Wol Euler: german too, but the difference is expressed in the verb.
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    adoro Rhapsody: in the context
    Wol Euler: Glück haben means to have luck
    Wol Euler: Glücklich sein means to be happy
    adoro Rhapsody: und glücklig sein
    Wol Euler: right
    adoro Rhapsody: dass is the difference between to have or to be
    adoro Rhapsody: thank u for the explanation
    Wol Euler smiles
    adoro Rhapsody: i never looked at it that way
    Wol Euler: I'm a born pedant, or teacher.

     

    A quarter-hour or so was removed from the record at the request of one of the participants.

     

    Wol Euler: so, let's start again.
    Wol Euler: Hello Darren, hello Adoro :)
    Darren Islar: that is a strange country where civil servants are not allowed to speak up :)
    adoro Rhapsody: i may say what i want but you may not publish what i said when i dont want it
    Darren Islar: sure
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: its the new strategy of communication code for dutch civil servants
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
    adoro Rhapsody: we just had it last week
    Darren Islar: raises an eyebrow also
    adoro Rhapsody: because the trust in government is at a low level
    adoro Rhapsody: we may not make the trust lower by being negative about the government as an employee
    adoro Rhapsody: the same is with banks i heard
    Darren Islar: hmmmm, that is a weird country you're living in ;)
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    adoro Rhapsody: and a strange government to work for
    Darren Islar: if there was any
    adoro Rhapsody: so its time for another government
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    adoro Rhapsody: government is like an religion
    adoro Rhapsody: its what we make it
    Darren Islar: no it is about politics
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    adoro Rhapsody: democratic is not democratic anymore
    Wol Euler: government and religion are both based on unverifiable and emotionally loaded beliefs :)
    adoro Rhapsody: seems it
    Wol Euler: so in a way, yes.
    Darren Islar: that is true
    Darren Islar: but to me that isnot religion
    adoro Rhapsody: but there isa code in PaB that we do not discuss politics?

     

    Not exactly: as I understand it we do not argue about our attachment to particular strands of politics.


    Darren Islar: to me that is culture and power
    Wol Euler: you think that religion is not emotionally loaded? :)
    Wol Euler: ah
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    adoro Rhapsody: you make clear the difference between religion and politics ?
    Wol Euler: btw, I read a good definition the other day. "Prayer is when you talk to God. Meditation is when you listen."
    Darren Islar: well, I think we are both right, because it is how you define it
    adoro Rhapsody: nice words wol !
    Darren Islar: but I think religion is used for the wrong things
    Wol Euler nods
    adoro Rhapsody: i think that too
    Darren Islar: at the same time that is what we call religion
    adoro Rhapsody: thanx darren
    Darren Islar: I need to remember that one Wol :)
    adoro Rhapsody: good explanation
    Darren Islar: nice quote

     

    Balance.


    adoro Rhapsody: but it must be a balance between listening and saying
    adoro Rhapsody: listening is inwards or not ?
    adoro Rhapsody: ying ?
    Wol Euler: "God gave us two ears and one mouth, so that we would listen twice as much as we speak."
    adoro Rhapsody: or active outwards yang ?
    Darren Islar: ))
    Wol Euler: :)
    adoro Rhapsody: another good quote !!!!
    Darren Islar: but he forgot that he made the mouth quite too big ;))
    adoro Rhapsody: hahah
    adoro Rhapsody: and a mouth can tase too
    Wol Euler: balance is a tricky thing, it's not simple equality of size. You can balance an elephant with a mouse, if you put them far apart enough from the fulcrum.
    adoro Rhapsody: it dont necesaryly have to speak
    adoro Rhapsody: it can kiss too
    Wol Euler smiles.
    adoro Rhapsody: or whisper
    Darren Islar: yes it is tricky
    adoro Rhapsody: but you can hear and not listen
    Darren Islar: and we don't listen that well
    adoro Rhapsody: so twice hearing is not twice listening
    Wol Euler: very true.
    adoro Rhapsody: maybe
    adoro Rhapsody: and you have active listening and passive listening
    adoro Rhapsody: with real interst
    adoro Rhapsody: or without
    adoro Rhapsody: with respect for the speaker
    adoro Rhapsody: or not
    adoro Rhapsody: with eagerness to learn or not
    adoro Rhapsody: so
    --BELL--
    adoro Rhapsody: many ways to listen
    adoro Rhapsody: and many ways to speak
    adoro Rhapsody: some are the good ones

     

    I injected a note of seriously-meant levity.


    Wol Euler: http://www.theonion.com/articles/god...kill-rule,222/
    Wol Euler: apropos religion and not listening
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: can u explain that any more ?
    adoro Rhapsody: aprpos ?
    Darren Islar: nice article :)
    adoro Rhapsody: what does it says ?
    Darren Islar: I haven't read all of it yet
    Wol Euler: God explains that when he said "don't kill people," he meant "don't kill people."
    Wol Euler: but apparently nobody was listening
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: so even they made the hearers listeners it didnt work out so
    Wol Euler: "apropos" means "by way of talking about", a way to introduce a related but different topic
    adoro Rhapsody: till now
    adoro Rhapsody: i see
    adoro Rhapsody: thanx
    Wol Euler: yw
    adoro Rhapsody: it needs to be repeated
    Wol Euler: oh, I'll hve to leave for work in 10 minutes :(
    adoro Rhapsody: oh
    Wol Euler: got a meeting at 11:30
    Darren Islar: it is also a Dutch word: apropos
    Wol Euler: please feel free to continue here.
    adoro Rhapsody: bye, thnx
    Darren Islar: okay, see you Wol :))
    adoro Rhapsody: its my holiday today
    Wol Euler: ah! nice.
    Wol Euler: you too, darren?
    Darren Islar: oh, sorry, then minutes on the clock ;)
    Darren Islar: I was trying to read the article and the chat, but not good in multitasking ;)
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Darren Islar: seems to be a male thing :))
    Wol Euler: heheh
    Wol Euler: true!
    adoro Rhapsody: Wol explained the essence
    adoro Rhapsody: of the article
    Wol Euler: anyway, I must go. Enjoy the day, my dears.
    adoro Rhapsody: so we dont need to read it
    Darren Islar: bye Wol
    adoro Rhapsody: bye guten tag
    Darren Islar: it is fun to read
    Wol Euler: ciao
    adoro Rhapsody: mmm

     

    When the cat's away, the mice will play.


    adoro Rhapsody: zo nu kunnen we nederlands praten
    adoro Rhapsody: als je wil
    Darren Islar: maakt me niet uit
    adoro Rhapsody: moet je in 10 minuten weg ?
    Darren Islar: ja, wil ik wel doen, moet nog wat andere dingen doen hier als ook in rl
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: het is wel interessant hier vind ik
    adoro Rhapsody: kom nu een paar maanden langs
    Darren Islar: sommige sessies zijn leuk ja
    adoro Rhapsody: ja niet alle
    adoro Rhapsody: dat klopt
    adoro Rhapsody: ik was op zoek naar tao en vond het hier
    adoro Rhapsody: maar het kan niet gevonden worden
    adoro Rhapsody: dus het is iets wat het benadert
    adoro Rhapsody: en Jij ?
    Darren Islar: ik houd me bezig met Tibetaans boeddhisme
    adoro Rhapsody: mooi
    Darren Islar: ik kan niet zeggen dat ik dat hier vind
    adoro Rhapsody: nee niet echt
    adoro Rhapsody: een beetje look alike
    adoro Rhapsody: een beetje would be
    adoro Rhapsody: the american way of buddhism
    adoro Rhapsody: buddhisme as a self service
    Darren Islar: hmmmm, ik weet niet of het zo amerikaans is
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Darren Islar: maar het ligt dichter bij wat men 'spritualiteit' noemt
    adoro Rhapsody: ja dat is mooi gezegd
    Darren Islar: het is net iets meer gefundeerd dan dat, maar het wiebelt nog behoorlijk :)
    adoro Rhapsody: mooi zo
    adoro Rhapsody: een dynamische balans ?
    adoro Rhapsody: een benadering ?
    adoro Rhapsody: het komt in de buurt ?
    Darren Islar: nee, ik bedoel dat naar mijn idee de ideeen hier niet goed gefundeerd zijn
    --BELL--
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: no evidence based ideas
    adoro Rhapsody: niet goed wetenschappelijk onderbouwd

     

    Ah, Adoro, we should talk about this some day! The intention behind Play as Being is just that: to give the observation of our "inner reality" a scientific foundation, building on the ideas of Husserl and phenomenology. (Or perhaps that's just one of the intentions.)


    Darren Islar: te veel verschillende ideeen die in elkaar moeten passen op een of andere manier
    Darren Islar: hmmmm, wetenschapis interessant maar ook niet het goede fundament
    adoro Rhapsody: meer gevoelens dan feiten ?
    Darren Islar: nee, het is meer dat sommige uitgangspunten niet uitgewerkt zijn
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Darren Islar: 'spiritualiteit' kan leiden tot fantasieen of verkeerde ideeen wanneer niet goed gefundeerd
    adoro Rhapsody: ja, dat is een risico
    adoro Rhapsody: interessant om eens verder uit te discusieren
    adoro Rhapsody: maar uitgangspunten zijn maar een deel van het varhaal
    adoro Rhapsody: waar je naar toe wil is ook belngrijk
    Darren Islar: voro mij is dat deel van het fundament
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: als dat al als het fundament is ga je ook daar naar toe werken
    adoro Rhapsody: dat is moi
    adoro Rhapsody: mooi
    Darren Islar: spiritualiteit is voor mij niet wat je doet of voelt of wat dan ook, spiritualiteit heeft voor mij te maken met de context waarin je het plaatst
    Darren Islar: de context maakt van spiritualiteit echte spiritualiteit
    adoro Rhapsody: zo dat is heftig !
    Darren Islar: dat je misschien kleuren kunt zien, vreugde kunt voelen, is allemaal leuk, maar is niet waar het over gaat
    Darren Islar: heftig?
    adoro Rhapsody: ja essentieel
    adoro Rhapsody: be doel ik
    Darren Islar: oh zo
    adoro Rhapsody: wereld schokkend bedoel ik
    adoro Rhapsody: ik denk dat je gelijk hebt
    adoro Rhapsody: maar dat weinigen dat nog zo zien
    Darren Islar: ja, dat klopt
    adoro Rhapsody: fijn
    Darren Islar: we hebben de neigin, ik ook, om er dingen uit te pikken die ons welgevallen
    Darren Islar: en die te gebruiken en de moeilijke dingen over te slaan
    adoro Rhapsody: ja die in ons belang zijn
    adoro Rhapsody: en de quick wins first
    Darren Islar: ja
    adoro Rhapsody: om maar snel resulataat te maken
    Darren Islar: ja, en om onszelf gelukkig te maken
    adoro Rhapsody: maar ook dat is politiek
    Darren Islar: yep :)
    adoro Rhapsody: wat je becht belangrijk vindt moet jeook veel in investeren
    adoro Rhapsody: echt
    adoro Rhapsody: grote resultaten kosten ook veel
    adoro Rhapsody: dat moet in balanse zijn
    Darren Islar: zoals mijn leraar wel eens zei:
    Darren Islar: when your motivation is soso, your resultalt will be soso
    adoro Rhapsody: ja
    Darren Islar: if your motivation is strong, your result will be strong
    adoro Rhapsody: wie was jouw lerar ?
    Darren Islar: Gehlek Rimpoche
    Darren Islar: een Tibetaan
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: good man
    Darren Islar: I think so :)
    Darren Islar: Ik moet gaan Adoro
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: interessant gesprek
    adoro Rhapsody: dank
    adoro Rhapsody: groet
    adoro Rhapsody: happy day
    adoro Rhapsody: letting go
    adoro Rhapsody: Hey!
    Darren Islar: zelfde voor jou
    Darren Islar: mazzel he
    adoro Rhapsody: mazzel
    adoro Rhapsody: ik denk nog even na
     

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