2010.09.17 07:00 - Peeling Open

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal.

    The comment is by Eliza Madrigal.

    This session followed Time.

    Eliza Madrigal: A lovely and gentle session...
    Eliza Madrigal: mmm, just sitting with that.. tasting it...
    Eden Haiku: Yes
    Eden Haiku: Tasting Time.
    Bleu Oleander: tasty time
    Eden Haiku: And my morning coffee:)
    Eliza Madrigal: tasting time presenting
    Eliza Madrigal: presenting coffee...heh
    Eden Haiku: The presence of appearance
    Bleu Oleander: cup of time
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eden Haiku: A cup of time :))) @Bleu
    Eden Haiku: Contained time

    Eliza Madrigal: one thing, practically, I worked with for a few days... is that effort does not equal time
    Eden Haiku: tell us more?
    Eliza Madrigal: one day I can put so much into something, and have little to 'show' for it...
    Eliza Madrigal: another day I can slack off and then have a burst of creativity that accomplishes a week... or lifetime...
    Eliza Madrigal: It is what I saw in the phone call (cup?)... that conversation I wrote about

    Eden Haiku: Ah yes. I put hours and hours in my puzzle and it certianly doesn't look like it :((
    Bleu Oleander: can relate to that!
    Bleu Oleander: Storm and Eos have very creative solutions to their puzzles
    Eden Haiku: And yes, sometimes it just is the contrary (not with puzzling puzzles for me yet though...)
    Bleu Oleander: have you seen them?
    Eliza Madrigal: well when sharing with friends, that's okay... we can see the beauty of the aspiration, too
    Eliza Madrigal: I haven't yet
    Eden Haiku: Oh no, last time I went was about 3 days ago...Will go see that.:)
    Eliza Madrigal: It may be tomorrow before I'm able to see and also work on my own...
    Bleu Oleander: Storm questions whether other species experiences time as we do
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, nice question
    Eden Haiku: My time is competing between unpacking and puzzle....
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bert :) Nice to see you
    Bleu Oleander: hi Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: hello everybody - ty ! :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Eden, those seem overlapping universes :)
    Eden Haiku: Hi Bert, happy to see you too :)
    Bertram Jacobus: aww - all so kind ! ... :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: It relates to my observation too... sometimes time unpacks everything generously... and sometimes seems to withold... but of course it can't be time doing that
    Eliza Madrigal: must be 'me' :)
    Eliza Madrigal: wrestling with an invisible interface

    Eden Haiku: Will see them like that Eliza, good point. Did a lot of unpacking yesterday, was amazed at all I did in fact. Just finishing touches today. Still many hours though...
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Eliza Madrigal: So is it the sense of accomplishment? Of satisfaction... that we measure?
    Eden Haiku: Ah 'unpacking" that way, yeahhh!!! giggles.
    Eliza Madrigal: or try to
    Bleu Oleander: time baggage to unpack
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh....
    Eliza Madrigal: the baggage of time.... wow

    Eden Haiku: Would love to "pack" the words "presence of appearance" so I can unpack them in a zip.
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Eden Haiku: Instead of going through the blank mind stage for a while...
    Eliza Madrigal loves blank stage
    Eliza Madrigal: "the rest is silence"
    Eden Haiku: I know Eliza :) you are a very brave soul ;))
    Eliza Madrigal: (though rarely silent-hehe)
    Eden Haiku: hehe
    Eden Haiku: Words bubbling from your inner silent state Eliza, I can taste that.
    Bleu Oleander: speaking through the silence
    Eliza Madrigal: let's begin again, after the lights go out, and the stage is bare, and we're still there, still standing there as if to say, its all okay, forgiven... let's start living... begin again

    Eden Haiku: A PaB Yom Kippur :)

    Eliza Madrigal: (little song that bubbled up once)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: I love that, yes PaB Yom Kippur
    Eliza Madrigal: empty cup
    Eden Haiku: Are you feeling lost Bertarn? We are babbling from the Time session at 6 amSLT...
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahaha
    Eliza Madrigal: babbling and bubbling
    Eden Haiku: An empty cup of Time
    Bertram Jacobus: no. tyvm eden - i love to read here - and also in a group message window there is just something happening for me i like to admit ... ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: I keep thinking of the image of pulling back curtains of the sky
    Bertram Jacobus: hey adoro ! :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Arch :) Hi adoro :)
    Eden Haiku: Good Bertram :) Now, I'M going to proceed eating my cererals at the desktop. Might be silent for a few minutes (to protect my keyboard).
    adoro Rhapsody: hi all


    Bertram Jacobus: hello arch ... :-)
    Bleu Oleander: need to go .... fun session .... bye for now :)
    Bertram Jacobus: bye bleu
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bleu, thanks :)
    Bertram Jacobus: have a nice time !
    adoro Rhapsody: bye blue sky
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi All, Bye Bleu
    Eden Haiku: Bye Bleu!

    Eliza Madrigal: Time can be very nice, but gets blamed for so much...
    Eden Haiku: Time as a friend.
    Eliza Madrigal: for killing everyone, stealing things...
    Bertram Jacobus: but time is also famous for allmighty healing (!) : "time heals all wounds" (?) :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :) World/Experience as a friend
    adoro Rhapsody: only good time as a friend
    Eliza Madrigal: Greetings Lawrence :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Hi :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hey lawrence ! :-)
    adoro Rhapsody: hi law
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi, L
    Eden Haiku: Hey Lawrence, Adoro and Arch :))

    Eliza Madrigal: We've been discussing time this morning...
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Lawrence Vyceratops: In any particular sense of time?
    Eliza Madrigal: Maxine used the image of pixelations to describe a sense of experiencing time
    Bertram Jacobus: and that seem have to been a very inspiring discussion ? :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: very much so Bertram, yes
    adoro Rhapsody: wow
    adoro Rhapsody: i like time
    Eliza Madrigal: So in considering time in that way, and as each moment a new corridor of awareness...
    adoro Rhapsody: never a dull moment ?
    Eliza Madrigal: we came to Eden's image of a blank slate feeling when turning over the phrase ' the presence of appearance'...
    Eliza Madrigal: haha Yes Adoro
    Eden Haiku: That day I experienced peeling off the sky...
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    adoro Rhapsody: its tea time here
    adoro Rhapsody: afternoon
    adoro Rhapsody: 16.22
    Bertram Jacobus: helllo zen ! ... :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: oops - he´s still to far away ... lol
    Eden Haiku: I was riding in a horse-drawn carriage in Egypt. I was with a little group of friends and somehow I was late and I was joining them at the sound and light show at Karnark Temple in Luxor.
    Eliza Madrigal: oh wow...
    Eden Haiku: So I was by myself in that carriage and the sky was a pale green, near sunset.
    adoro Rhapsody: and how was your time experience ?
    Eden Haiku: It felt completely unreal, with the shadows of palm trees and the exotic place.
    adoro Rhapsody: but it was real
    Bertram Jacobus: helllo zen :-)

    Eliza Madrigal is struck by that thought... it 'felt' completely unreal

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
    Eden Haiku: And then I felt I could reach out to the screen of the pale green sky and peel it off to see what was behind the whole unreal scene.
    Zen Arado: Hi all
    adoro Rhapsody: hi zen
    Eliza Madrigal: like a film that one could just loosen the edge of..
    Eden Haiku: Hi Zen :)
    adoro Rhapsody: i felt the same in dream dance at Bertrams place
    Eliza Madrigal: an eye lid
    Eden Haiku: Yes, the pale green sky seemed just like that: a film, a thin layer...
    Bertram Jacobus: hy nio :-)
    adoro Rhapsody: hi nio
    adoro Rhapsody: rio
    Eliza Madrigal: did it seem something 'out there' or from within, Eden? this sense of things/vision?
    Zen Arado: Hi Nio :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Nio :)
    Eden Haiku: Yes Adoro, dream dance and many Second Life experiences bring forth a lot of sensations like that :)
    adoro Rhapsody: and i didnt hav to fly to Egypt
    Eden Haiku: It was from within Eliza. A strong conviction that "nothing is real". Strawberry Fields...:)))
    Lawrence Vyceratops: haha some outfit, nio!
    Eliza Madrigal: indeed.... there is something to see there.... each moment own context...
    adoro Rhapsody: nice outfit nio rio
    Eden Haiku: Hiccups Nio?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi nio :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hey, you took Alfred's face :)
    adoro Rhapsody: u steel the show today
    nio Artful: ㋡ ☆*¨¨*:•.•:*¨* hallo hello hi holla *¨¨*:•.•:*¨*☆ ㋡
    nio Artful: yacuzza
    adoro Rhapsody: nio in a box
    nio Artful: always
    adoro Rhapsody: the bravery of being out of range !
    adoro Rhapsody: nio !
    nio Artful: excuse me >?
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you for sharing that Eden... I can sense that kind of shakiness of glimpsing the 'unreality' of one's context
    adoro Rhapsody: just in time for the sunsets here
    Eden Haiku: Yes :) Eliza, you must have felt some of that shakiness in Japan recently, haven't you?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah... Japan was wonderful. In Japan I had a dream of the sort I'd never had before... as though the place were dreaming me....

    Eden Haiku: Zen and Yaku, I was so impressed by your poetic skills at last Monday morning session. All resistance gone, it was wonderful. Did you enjoy it?

    Eden Haiku: Oh Eliza, do tell us!
    Eliza Madrigal: there was a home feeling there
    Zen Arado: I enjoyed it
    Eden Haiku: What was the dream Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: that was it... it seems impossible to describe... home comes closest... like there wasn't an identity of me dreaming... just the place, sharing
    Eliza Madrigal: a hug from a place... haha
    Eden Haiku: Oh, Japan felt like home in the dream? Amazing!
    Eden Haiku: A hug from a place, love that!
    Eliza Madrigal: something like that... we use terms like that but it was an emergence....

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i really enjoyed the monday session
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it was great that you ,,suddenly initiated that"
    Eliza Madrigal: It read wonderfully too!!

    Eden Haiku: Yakuzza was so good at reading the collective poem, you missed that reading Zen I think...

    Eliza Madrigal: I could 'feel' having been in the session though I wasn't there
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eden Haiku: Yes Eliza,, your blessing was certainly with us :)
    Bertram Jacobus: and i felt something of your dream feeling i guess eliza - ty for sharing it ! ...
    Eliza Madrigal: the logs can be like the pensieve in Harry Potter

    Curious? http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Muggles'_Guide_to_Harry_Potter/Magic/Pensieve

    Eliza Madrigal: thank you Bert :)
    adoro Rhapsody: well what has it to do with time ?
    Eden Haiku: Oh yes, we 'drop' into the pensieve of the logs! What a great image Eliza!
    adoro Rhapsody: did i miss something ?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, sweet, Eden :)
    Eliza Madrigal: well we experience time as something coming at us sometimes I think....
    Eden Haiku: WE are talking about another session Adoro, sorry. Let me give you the link,..
    Eliza Madrigal: something we have to reckon with?
    adoro Rhapsody: not that i know
    Eliza Madrigal: that is the view of solidifying things.. labeling and capturing...
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t think so adoro - only may be that topics sometimes in chats switch very fast, even instantly - also forward and backwards so to say ...
    adoro Rhapsody: i see
    adoro Rhapsody: never mind
    Eliza Madrigal: but what about time emerging... from a session, from sharing, from a moment of awareness....
    Zen Arado: we never quite know what we are talking about sometimes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: in a quality
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: thats human
    Eliza Madrigal giggles @ Zen
    Zen Arado: at least I don't
    adoro Rhapsody: me too
    Eliza Madrigal fully realizes that only Eden understands her
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahha
    Eliza Madrigal: kidding :)
    Eden Haiku: It certainly switches swifly yes Bert and we often don't know what we are talking about as Zen says. Trying to locate the link for Adoro...
    Zen Arado: nobody understands me :(
    Eliza Madrigal: "Not knowing is most intimate" Zen
    adoro Rhapsody: i like the way of thinking of zen
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Zen Arado: my wife doesn't understand me
    Eden Haiku: But we love you Zen!
    Bertram Jacobus: agree !
    Zen Arado: that's cos I haven't got one though
    Eliza Madrigal: you have a wife, Zen?!
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh =P~
    Zen Arado: but she wouldn't anyway
    Eden Haiku: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: that's the only way to stay married
    Eden Haiku: But she would love you Zen!
    Eden Haiku: ;)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Ya :)
    Bertram Jacobus: bye yaku
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Bye, Yakuzza
    Zen Arado: bye Yaku
    Eden Haiku: Bye Yakuzza :)
    Bertram Jacobus: have a nice day !
    Eliza Madrigal loves when sessions go 'off road'

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Our language is so metaphorical. Perhaps this is why it is often difficult for us to understand each other. Meanings we place on our language can be so subjective.
    Zen Arado: if a man is alone in the forest without his wife is he still wrong? :)
    adoro Rhapsody: well i was in a pause
    Lawrence Vyceratops: hahaha zen
    Eliza Madrigal: a pause is a blank slate of sorts.. a canvas....
    adoro Rhapsody: i see

    Eliza Madrigal: Lawrence, does it not depend on what we're expecting though, as far as adequately 'understanding'
    Lawrence Vyceratops: that was very metaphorical ;)
    Eden Haiku: Language so metaphorical yes...So many worldviews and different realities too yes Lawrence
    Zen Arado: nah - just thinking of the next thing to say...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, we expect a lot, Eliza. ;)

    Eden Haiku: You think before you type Zen? Impressive...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eden Haiku: I don't, unfortunately...
    Zen Arado: hmmm... maybe I don't
    Eden Haiku: Most of the time...
    Zen Arado: maybe I should :)


    Eden Haiku: Maybe you should ( confusing you here)
    Eden Haiku: ;)
    adoro Rhapsody: maybe we should
    Eden Haiku: Meditating on hiccups is a first for me :)

    Zen Arado: better if we express our true self?
    Zen Arado: not ego self thinking thoughts?
    Eliza Madrigal: or allow 'true self' to express itself... then appreciate that...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: True self?

    adoro Rhapsody: as an avatar ?
    adoro Rhapsody: or as human behind the avatar ?

    Eliza Madrigal: 'drop what you have to let what you are be seen'
    Zen Arado: allow it to speak
    Eden Haiku: Sorry Adoro, I cannot find the link. The Wiki is not available somehow. .
    Zen Arado: but what will it say?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: You guys are speaking metaphorically again. ;) heheh
    Zen Arado: it might embarass us
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: embrace us
    Eliza Madrigal: metaphor is just acknowledging the pointing fingers....
    Eden Haiku: I will try again in a few minutes. maybe it will work again. It happens sometimes.
    Eden Haiku: Ah, Bertram, yes, the arc looks better that way :)
    nio Artful: back
    Lawrence Vyceratops: front
    Bertram Jacobus: ty eden :-)
    nio Artful: side
    Zen Arado: Cheri Huber said that she often finds the right answer to a students question just comes into her mind from somewhere
    nio Artful: all views are satisfied
    Eliza Madrigal: so metaphor seems more honest... all words are just representations too...
    Zen Arado: she's a kind of spiritual teacher
    Eliza Madrigal smiles at Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: I've never heard of her, but appreciate that idea

    Eliza Madrigal: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2010/09/2010.09.13_07%3a00_-_%22Sudden_strong_emotions_struggle_for_release%22_(writing_a_collective_poem)

    Zen Arado: http://www.cherihuber.com/

    Eliza Madrigal: link to the collective poem session :)

    Eden Haiku: Bertram, I read in a previous log that you were looking for a new job. Are you settled now?
    Eliza Madrigal: ty zen
    Eden Haiku: Thanks Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal likes her title "When you're falling, dive" hahaha
    Eliza Madrigal is always falling
    Eden Haiku: hehe
    Zen Arado: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: not yet eden. will need a while i guess. but that´s okay - may be around a month or two - let´s see. and ty for being interested in other´s affairs ! that feels quite altruistic to me ... :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    adoro Rhapsody: nice said bert
    adoro Rhapsody: bert
    adoro Rhapsody: altruistic
    Eliza Madrigal: Shakti filled Eden :)
    adoro Rhapsody: thats the word
    nio Artful: what is altruistic?
    adoro Rhapsody: i searched for
    adoro Rhapsody: the opposite of egoistic
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s so to say the contrary of egoistic nio
    Eliza Madrigal: a natural good will... caretaking, consideration...
    Lawrence Vyceratops: altruism is being concerned for others, sometimes to the detriment of self
    Bertram Jacobus: comes from latin "alter", which means "the other"
    Zen Arado: like a boddhisattva

    Eden Haiku: Well, I realized you were a real person behind the playful avatar and I felt sorry to hear you lost a job. I have seen you in your nice suit for a wedding, you looked so much light and then there was this real life struggle behind it all...

    Eliza Madrigal: she peeled the sky back....
    Zen Arado: what was behind it?
    Zen Arado: another one?
    Eden Haiku: A sweet Navi warrior :)
    Eliza Madrigal: of sorts perhaps, but also the awareness of that
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow - where did you see and notice my sl wedding invitation (and / or -clothing) i had to follow eden !? ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, sweet :)
    Zen Arado: and the successive skies get thinner
    Zen Arado: and more transparent
    nio Artful: a friend told me that altruistic is to give with out to expect something back also how do you understand that is right or tooo much?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Have to get going.. :)
    Eden Haiku: Saw you in your party clothes and read about it in the logs Bertram...
    Bertram Jacobus: bye lawrence - have a nice day !
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Lawrence... you'll have to help us not talk in metaphors next time.. hehe
    adoro Rhapsody: bye law
    nio Artful: bye..
    Eden Haiku: Bye Lawrence, was nice to see you :)
    Lawrence Vyceratops: heheh
    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Zen Arado: if you start to calculate it isn't it I think

    Lawrence Vyceratops: It was nice seeing you all.
    Zen Arado: bye Lawrence
    Eliza Madrigal: You too, bye for now
    adoro Rhapsody: pleasure was mine
    Bertram Jacobus: ah okay (eden) :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: even if I say, I am cooking a pie, and it is true, it is a metaphor.... hehhe
    Zen Arado: or if you think about it rather than do it spontaneously it isn't altruism I think
    Eden Haiku: Will have to go at the next bell too. Thank you for taking the time session log and for this session Eliza. :))
    Eden Haiku: Bye everyone, have a nice week end!
    Eliza Madrigal: Me too actually... long day ahead and am filling in for lucinda tonight

    Bertram Jacobus: but my latest impresson was again - being a "warrior" seems to be really not my path (!) ...
    Eliza Madrigal: Much appreciation
    Eden Haiku: Ah @Bert :)
    adoro Rhapsody: dont worry
    Eliza Madrigal: gentle warrior
    adoro Rhapsody: warior
    Zen Arado: go gently into the night....
    Bertram Jacobus: [then bye already now eden ! and eliza] ;-)
    adoro Rhapsody: bye girls
    Zen Arado: bye Eden, Eliza
    nio Artful: bye,..
    Eliza Madrigal waves, bye for now
    adoro Rhapsody: namaste
    adoro Rhapsody: i like to sit near nio
    nio Artful: `*.¸.*´ Dank you! `*.¸.*´
    adoro Rhapsody: yw
    adoro Rhapsody: its a total new experience
    adoro Rhapsody: on the side of such a creature
    nio Artful: lol..
    adoro Rhapsody: so original decorated
    adoro Rhapsody: never seen that before
    nio Artful: ecological ineed
    adoro Rhapsody: in all my life
    adoro Rhapsody: nice green
    nio Artful: indeed
    nio Artful: hi..
    Zen Arado: it looks like an Irish outfit
    Bertram Jacobus: hey edwnly ! ... ;-)
    nio Artful: Thank you! :)
    nio Artful: adoro
    adoro Rhapsody: hi edwin
    Edwnly Revestel: hello
    Zen Arado: Hi Edwynly
    nio Artful: games....why we play games?
    Zen Arado: have you been here before Ed?
    nio Artful: and art also why?
    Bertram Jacobus: yes he has ;-)
    Zen Arado: ok :)
    adoro Rhapsody: never seen u before
    adoro Rhapsody: but how are u ?
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, that are variations to handle life nio. playing may be more intense also learning then art may be ...
    Bertram Jacobus: art more for relaxin perhaps
    Zen Arado: homo ludens
    Bertram Jacobus: yess

    adoro Rhapsody: playing can be as serious as life is
    Bertram Jacobus: play as being ;-)
    adoro Rhapsody: art too
    Zen Arado: game playing is part of our development I think
    nio Artful: mmm
    adoro Rhapsody: to play or not to play
    Zen Arado: like kittens play with a ball of wool
    adoro Rhapsody: give the ppl bread and plays
    Zen Arado: ha ha bread and circuses
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    Zen Arado: you read that book adoro?
    adoro Rhapsody: thats the new generation
    adoro Rhapsody: not yet
    nio Artful: how can someone play games altruisticaly?games are boring when are not competitive
    adoro Rhapsody: but i heard about it
    nio Artful: not always ofcourse
    Zen Arado: it's in a Dickens novel called 'Hard Times'
    Zen Arado: he criticized Utilitarian ideas
    adoro Rhapsody: well i go to eat
    adoro Rhapsody: bye all
    Bertram Jacobus: bye adoro
    nio Artful: how someone can play a game in altruistic way?would not that be boring to all?
    nio Artful: to let others win i mean
    Bertram Jacobus: some people are able to do such for children sometimes, for example ... ;-)
    nio Artful: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*YESSSSSS!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*

    nio Artful: but when a kid relises the truth will be bored too
    Zen Arado: games tend to lose the point if you do not play to win
    nio Artful: exactly
    nio Artful: but...
    Zen Arado: altruism would be playing a game you do not like much because your children want you too
    nio Artful: we need games and we need altruistic spirit isnt it contructive?
    nio Artful: or is there a balanced way to view it

    nio Artful: a new philoshophy of gaming

    nio Artful: i feel that we lack that philoshophy up to now
    Bertram Jacobus: the dalai lama says . "altruism is only the more intelligent form of egoism" (!) ... ;-)
    nio Artful: i agree
    Zen Arado: maybe for most of us
    Zen Arado: most of the time
    nio Artful: i have to know that i need you more than my egoistic shelf thinks.....and i need to open my heart and feel your needs too
    nio Artful: to feel your needs mine
    Zen Arado: I think there are degrees of unselfishness
    Zen Arado: more is better even if you aren't truly altruistic
    nio Artful: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*YESSSSSS!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
    nio Artful: as there are degrees of self awareness and counsiusnes
    Bertram Jacobus: and may be, that all is, because we develop in life, generally ... and only if that found to an end, other forms then competition and similar may become possible ...
    nio Artful: paralel things
    Zen Arado: so we as we practice we become more natural and inselfish
    Zen Arado: if we can see through the ego self
    Zen Arado: some of our selfishness disappears
    nio Artful: what is the ego shelf?
    nio Artful: in breaf
    Zen Arado: it is only protectiveness anyway
    Zen Arado: it is the false sense of 'I' we build
    nio Artful: in which way falce?
    Zen Arado: because it isn't our true self
    Bertram Jacobus: feeling apart , going not deep enough
    Zen Arado: it is like a mechanism for self survival
    nio Artful: ~',','Oh..kay..kay..kay',','~
    nio Artful: and where is our true self?
    Zen Arado: it spearates us from others too
    Bertram Jacobus: deeper

    Zen Arado: it is what we are at base

    Bertram Jacobus: wider, too
    Zen Arado: the rest is a false construction
    nio Artful: why we dont feel that deeper?
    Zen Arado: useful maybe but false
    Zen Arado: fear
    Bertram Jacobus: the question "why" in the end only leads to infinity ...
    nio Artful: FEAR
    Zen Arado: I think so
    nio Artful: i agree
    nio Artful: is the first step of losing our self
    nio Artful: why?
    Bertram Jacobus: why what plz ? :-)
    nio Artful: why fear is a step to lose our self
    Zen Arado: it is seeing the fear and protectiveness
    Zen Arado: and eventually being able to be more open
    Zen Arado: when you see more clearly you see you don't need it so much
    Zen Arado: just awareness dispels fear
    Bertram Jacobus: wb adoro - that was a fast meal !? ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and hello cal ! :-)
    adoro Rhapsody: yes the meal is not ready yet
    Zen Arado: wb Adoro
    Zen Arado: Hi Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Hey hello everyone :)
    adoro Rhapsody: so i can be here a while

    nio Artful: when we fear we have 2 posibilities 1 to stay awake in hear and now and face the problem with skils and faith and patient spirit or to PAIN and decrise our consiousnes as defent in order not to feal that anoying emotion of fear
    nio Artful: hi..
    Calvino Rabeni is listening for the second possibility
    nio Artful: if we are not educated to handle uncertaines and fears we lose our self
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, true
    Calvino Rabeni: it's a learnign
    Calvino Rabeni: How can one do that, I wonder?
    nio Artful: do what /
    nio Artful: ?

    Zen Arado: can you learn in advance how to cope with all situations?

    Calvino Rabeni: be educated to handle uncertainties and fears
    Calvino Rabeni: No zen
    Calvino Rabeni: but can be more flexible
    Zen Arado: I don't think so either
    Calvino Rabeni: broadened capacities
    Zen Arado: it's more about gradually openning
    nio Artful: an idea is to first see what is realy importand as need
    Zen Arado: opening
    adoro Rhapsody: when u have a more divers reportoire of reactions
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe it would be good to give up, for all time, the idea of final answers and solutions
    Calvino Rabeni: in favor of keeping ones wits in the moment
    adoro Rhapsody: you can survive better
    nio Artful: if i afraid to lose tooo many things i have less posibilities to keep my self
    Zen Arado: everything as it arises
    Bertram Jacobus: i like the sentence : "the bad thing about experiences is, that we all that only get it after we had needed it" ! ;-)
    adoro Rhapsody: sure
    nio Artful: yes..
    Calvino Rabeni: "experience is the ability to recognize mistakes when you make them again"
    adoro Rhapsody: but with a flight simulatur you can anticipate
    Bertram Jacobus: but that is very profane and also a bit with a twink meant ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Our minds are built-in flight simulators created by nature
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    adoro Rhapsody: and how about intuïtion ?
    adoro Rhapsody: and the right feeling
    adoro Rhapsody: the fingeszpitzengefühl ?
    Bertram Jacobus: yes ! anticipating is a real tricky thing or method ! ;-)
    adoro Rhapsody: why tricky ?
    Calvino Rabeni: nio, I'm hoping I remembered myself during that 90-second pause
    Zen Arado: if you develop wisdom you can cope better
    adoro Rhapsody: well now i am called to eat
    adoro Rhapsody: bye everybody
    Zen Arado: yes - time I had dinner too
    Calvino Rabeni: ... breakfast :)
    Bertram Jacobus: to me - those are also methods or insights which appear from being aware of circumstances of the presence adoro ...
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: bye for now
    Bertram Jacobus: bye zen ! ...
    nio Artful: we need food clothes and a place to live...we need a purpose in life friends love...so an idea is to try with small efforts and responsibility to have a moderate quantity of them as we increas our background of succesful atempts we have more comfidence ....but this is our part only we need more............GOVERMENT SCIENCEE ...AND OTHER PEOPLE RESPONSIBILITY AS WE TOLD IN PAST AGAIN
    Calvino Rabeni: Government science won't work (in my opinion) if there's not a base of developed consciousness in the people
    nio Artful: i agree
    Calvino Rabeni: Same idea - morality cannot be legislated into existence
    nio Artful: and for that i talk for a perfect goverment and science
    nio Artful: holonic ideas
    nio Artful: holons
    Calvino Rabeni: but what would that be, except an expression of perfect humans?
    Calvino Rabeni: the holons work together at different levels
    Calvino Rabeni: there's no way to impose an order at one level and have it control the others
    Bertram Jacobus: i´ll take a braek - ty all and have a good time ! +wave* ...
    nio Artful: i believe in GOD he has both of them POWER LOVE SCIENSE AND ABILITY TO LEAD
    Calvino Rabeni: TC Bertram, bye :)
    Bertram Jacobus: ty ... :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: sure maybe nio, but isn't it up to people to pay attention to that?
    nio Artful: AND WE have the results we have
    nio Artful: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*YESSSSSS!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
    nio Artful: it is
    Calvino Rabeni: Well evidently there's a little lucifer in all of us
    nio Artful: but.....
    nio Artful: yes..
    nio Artful: sometimes i get out of my door and
    nio Artful: a spider net is braking at my face as i pass
    nio Artful: that insect dont know that a biger reality desides for that space
    nio Artful: so she makes a net in wrong place
    Calvino Rabeni: Or doesn't decide, as the case may be
    nio Artful: metapho
    nio Artful: metaphor
    nio Artful: sure\
    Calvino Rabeni: You think belief is important, I will hazard to guess?
    nio Artful: it is writen by the creator that he wil bring his goverment in a proper time when it will be profane to all that we canot lead our self succesfully ...so if we make our palnts we may decide to make them in harmony with the greater reality that is leading the univerce...
    nio Artful: if we do that we will not lose our NET
    nio Artful: our plike the spider i mean at my door
    nio Artful: like the spider i mean at my door
    nio Artful: we have to make our plant and constructions in harmny with the greater reality that leads universe
    nio Artful: he-she IS our first self
    nio Artful: we there decided at Start to repeat our self here and every where
    nio Artful: plant=plans
    nio Artful: we there have a plan to put order again in earth
    nio Artful: we have let our self here to experiment and see that we need our HEAD -first self- to survive and develop
    nio Artful: succesfully
    Calvino Rabeni: It looks to me like order plays a big part in your outlook, nio
    nio Artful: please say in more simple words
    Calvino Rabeni: you believe in order
    nio Artful: no
    Calvino Rabeni: ?
    nio Artful: in a moderate state
    Calvino Rabeni: ok
    nio Artful: but closer to order
    Calvino Rabeni: so are we not always, in a moderate state?
    nio Artful: we can go closer to order
    Calvino Rabeni: how close, and what determines that?
    nio Artful: totaly order is not the goal
    Calvino Rabeni: true
    nio Artful: our first self has told
    nio Artful: .....i work and my father is working
    nio Artful: so our first selfs have to work
    Calvino Rabeni: you have a cosmology
    Calvino Rabeni: a mythic idea
    Calvino Rabeni: of what has happened to the creation over time
    nio Artful: i share my belifes
    nio Artful: but i am open to new ideas
    nio Artful: as someone can be
    Calvino Rabeni: That's a nice statement
    nio Artful: we dont have n eternity to decide neither ..
    Calvino Rabeni: Some people believe, that belief is important
    nio Artful: one need in life
    nio Artful: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*YESSSSSS!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
    nio Artful: ..
    nio Artful: if there is no god
    Calvino Rabeni: what do you think of the idea of a self-organizing universe, of emegent order and autopoeisis?
    nio Artful: we are more easy to survive if we cultivate faith and confidence to our developings skills
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree with that statement
    Calvino Rabeni: but maybe the belief in god undermines faith and confidence in developing skills
    Calvino Rabeni: not necessarily
    nio Artful: i believe that the core of that you just described has consious -the total one- and i call it .....our first self god jehova
    Calvino Rabeni: if that is true, then it would be inside all of us and in each part
    nio Artful: sure
    nio Artful: but the periferals units has no the same capacity in a pc network with a strong core ...and it is great if they are conected with the core..
    nio Artful: they extend their capabilities
    nio Artful: we need our core
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree, but where is it?
    nio Artful: we need our core self even his existance is in us
    Calvino Rabeni: In a network there's no controller and scripter of everything
    Calvino Rabeni: a network is strong because there is no central controlling unit
    Calvino Rabeni: that's how for instance the internet works
    nio Artful: in a network interacting is importand
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    nio Artful: but your pc and mine need the big interner constructions that make this possible
    nio Artful: but there are core constructions that make this posible to us
    nio Artful: we canot ignore them
    Calvino Rabeni: All those do is pass information
    Calvino Rabeni: and there is of course the design aspect
    nio Artful: but theis capabilities are far away biger than our pc
    nio Artful: their
    nio Artful: we need them
    Calvino Rabeni: but the intelligences who created those designs are many people working together spread through the world, cooperating and competing in a chaotic way
    nio Artful: and ofcourse we already feel that in web there must be low
    Calvino Rabeni: that's how network intelligence works
    nio Artful: our internet creates alot of troubles because of the lack of central control
    nio Artful: ethical ones i mean
    nio Artful: and there are eforts to that way
    nio Artful: to make a internet low i mean to control the prosess
    nio Artful: but
    nio Artful: when i talk for god
    nio Artful: ...
    nio Artful: god is open to ideas
    nio Artful: <<<<<<<<<< L O L - L O L - L O L - L O L >>>>>>>>>>
    nio Artful: he have let us to experiment
    Calvino Rabeni: thank goodness for that :)
    nio Artful: he-she
    Calvino Rabeni: Nio, I have some work to do - I'm starting to multi-task here
    nio Artful: the central self is out of gendr
    nio Artful: gender
    nio Artful: ~',','Oh..kay..kay..kay',','~
    Calvino Rabeni: And don't quite have the attention this conversation deserves :)
    Calvino Rabeni: But it is good to see you here :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and yesterday
    nio Artful: sure
    Calvino Rabeni: So let us continue later
    nio Artful: i want to see the truth
    Calvino Rabeni: I know
    nio Artful: i canot see if i am wrong if i dont share my beliefes
    Calvino Rabeni: I find that a courageous statement in a way
    nio Artful: i dont want to believe something that finaly will be found lies
    nio Artful: so if we hide our ideas we have more posibilities to become like lakes with no fresh new clear water
    nio Artful: how we call them?
    Calvino Rabeni: a swamp or bog?
    nio Artful: marsh?
    Calvino Rabeni: stagnant
    nio Artful: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*YESSSSSS!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
    nio Artful: we need fresh rivers passing through our brains
    nio Artful: and dialog is usefull for that
    Calvino Rabeni: I surely agree in those two things

    nio Artful: some people dont talk about politics or religion because this causes problems in relation but i feel this is dangerous as a culture and habit
    nio Artful: we have to talk about them in a respectfull way
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree, it's a problem not to talk, or to talk in a coercive way
    nio Artful: is like not to go out of our house because a car can kill us
    nio Artful: we already lost the game of life in this way stay in our house for ever

    Calvino Rabeni: What is the most useful way to tak about religion or politics?
    nio Artful: listen
    nio Artful: *$* LoL *$*
    nio Artful: i need to knew what my co speaker believe
    nio Artful: and how that effects to his life practicaly and to his comynity
    nio Artful: so i have to listen
    nio Artful: something that was always dificult with you my friend
    Calvino Rabeni: well also it depends on what you will do with the information
    Calvino Rabeni: what is your goal or agenda
    nio Artful: i have good intences
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes? (smiles)
    nio Artful: subjective? lol...
    nio Artful: if someone has the truth
    Calvino Rabeni: And I take your point about difficulty seeing my beliefs
    nio Artful: you told me only for your 4 road axplorations and ken wilber
    nio Artful: i also see that you are very informated
    Calvino Rabeni: I could give you a very long list of different things .... then my views would be a synthesis
    nio Artful: and i like you
    Calvino Rabeni: which doesn't make it easy to understand by looking at the list
    Calvino Rabeni: likewise Nil
    Calvino Rabeni: *Nio :)
    Calvino Rabeni: On everything I've learned or studied, there is a true part and a false part
    nio Artful: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*YESSSSSS!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
    Calvino Rabeni: and none of them has the "truth"
    nio Artful: if there is no god we have no too much hope
    nio Artful: we die soon
    nio Artful: i am happy that i know that my existance re-emerge trough every new life

    Calvino Rabeni: What if, you could see both sides of that issue
    nio Artful: in different forms ofcoarse
    nio Artful: pl explain me what you mean
    Calvino Rabeni: And in terms of learning, it might be worthwhile to look into the less favored possibility
    Calvino Rabeni: for example, to sacrifice one's beliefs
    Calvino Rabeni: and see if they can manage for themselves
    Calvino Rabeni: So what if people can hope, and things can work out, without a god?
    Calvino Rabeni: See because in a way, this makes a connection between god, and the needs of people
    nio Artful: i am happy that every possible choise has been taken in earth by our repeated diferentieted self
    Calvino Rabeni: it's like love
    nio Artful: i am realy happy that i live in other bodies as atheist
    Calvino Rabeni: love isn't about getting needs met
    Calvino Rabeni: and yet, it does meet needs
    Calvino Rabeni: the thing you said earlier seems profound
    nio Artful: please use more simple sentences for me
    Calvino Rabeni: I like what you said
    nio Artful: explain me this again
    nio Artful: love isn't about getting needs met [09:27] Calvino Rabeni: and yet, it does meet needs [09:27] Calvino Rabeni: the thing you said earlier seems profound [09:27] nio Artful: please use more simple sentences for me [09:28] Calvino Rabeni: I like what you said
    Calvino Rabeni: "every possible choice has been taken by our ... differentiated self"
    nio Artful: *:-.,_,.-:*'``'*YESSSSSS!!!!*:-.,_,.-:*'``'*
    Calvino Rabeni: Good thing to think about
    nio Artful: so we have a big background of results of any attempt
    Calvino Rabeni: And the choices CONTINUE to be made - it is not only in the past
    nio Artful: to see the truth of the results
    Calvino Rabeni: The lessons are yet to be learned
    nio Artful: i agree
    nio Artful: they continue
    nio Artful: yes...
    nio Artful: i make in this body this choise to believe in god because ihave the clues
    nio Artful: but ...
    nio Artful: i am happy because in every other bodie i know that i try other ways
    nio Artful: i feel that this is an importand trick that our first self uses also to handle uncertainess
    Calvino Rabeni: That's distributed intelligence
    nio Artful: i believe that you are every one you sdee in earth and every spirit
    nio Artful: from god to devil
    nio Artful: we are them
    nio Artful: but diferentietd acording our choises and our circumstanses\
    nio Artful: so facing the uncertainess ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe "devil" is just the part of the thinking process we don't understand, or don't like, because it makes the mistakes
    Calvino Rabeni: but might be somewhat grateful the mistakes are made
    Calvino Rabeni: because otherwise there would be no learning and intelligence
    nio Artful: i respect him even i dont want to imetate him
    Calvino Rabeni: That seems sensible
    nio Artful: i know that in god and in devil is the only ONE
    nio Artful: the one who is in you and me too
    Calvino Rabeni: But because there's "devil" in each of us (?)
    Calvino Rabeni: It's good to work with it
    Calvino Rabeni: And not turn away
    nio Artful: if we make wrong decisions we are like a boat that even with a 1 meter away finaly gets thousand miles awy of the goal
    nio Artful: if my existance becomes painfull and bring to others pain to .....i lets say become devil
    nio Artful: in a permanent way painfull i mean and bad
    nio Artful: no curently
    nio Artful: we are the devil there
    nio Artful: we are the god there
    nio Artful: and the god to
    nio Artful: but curently we are here in this body
    nio Artful: too
    nio Artful: and we have to decide what we want to emetate
    nio Artful: mimic
    nio Artful: or do our own new style of choise
    Calvino Rabeni: I understand but don't agree that much with the metaphors

    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think the boat can keep going forever in the wrong direction
    Calvino Rabeni: and I don't think someone can become a devil in a permanent way

    nio Artful: nice
    nio Artful: you mean that a devil can make up his mind?
    Calvino Rabeni: therefore it's not so important to avoid mistakes in the beginning
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: and the changes happen anywhere along the "journey"
    nio Artful: the reality is to hard kalvino
    nio Artful: we built our self
    Calvino Rabeni: on a day by day basis people are always balanced dynamically somewhere between really bad and really good choices
    Calvino Rabeni: that's life - life lives on the edge of chaos, not in the realm of static perfection
    Calvino Rabeni: it is like the Goldilocks story
    nio Artful: tone who destroy his self with drugs make changes to his bodie importand ones


    Calvino Rabeni: Not too hot .... not too cold .... just right.
    nio Artful: these changes many times have no retiurn
    nio Artful: no return
    Calvino Rabeni: Just right is neither randomness nor static perfection
    nio Artful: understand/
    nio Artful: ?
    nio Artful: 'we make up our mind but as someone told before is too late
    Calvino Rabeni: Say more ?
    Calvino Rabeni: What could be "too late"?
    nio Artful: do you know therapists that lose any hope to cure a psihopathetic guy with no sence of shame?
    nio Artful: he has created a type of existance that cnot be cured
    nio Artful: god in bible says that the human beings are in a terrible situation of consiousnes that is hopless for the god himself too
    nio Artful: to cure us
    nio Artful: so it is told by god that only few will find the road that is hard to follow
    nio Artful: <<<<<<<<<< L O L - L O L - L O L - L O L >>>>>>>>>>
    nio Artful: and the most of us we will be recicled
    Calvino Rabeni: I can see some truth in that, as a metaphor
    Calvino Rabeni: but, now I must go, Nio
    nio Artful: sory for that recicle is my humor
    nio Artful: ~',','Oh..kay..kay..kay',','~
    nio Artful: ty
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care, be well :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye
    adoro Rhapsody: bye

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