2010.09.22 13:00 - I'm all for Basic Goodness

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    Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database.


    Alfred Kelberry: oi, fef :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Alf
    Fefonz Quan: good to see you :)
    Alfred Kelberry: no one was here at 1 pm and i went to visit bert :)
    Alfred Kelberry: then saw you popped in :)
    Fefonz Quan: I see :)
    Alfred Kelberry: so, when is mazel tov coming? :)
    Fefonz Quan: well, ther is still time
    Fefonz Quan: 2 months :)
    Alfred Kelberry: oh, soon! :)
    Alfred Kelberry: big belly
    Alfred Kelberry: i should send you a greeting card :)
    Fefonz Quan: don't risk with people that mightread behind my back! ;-)
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: oi, bruce
    Bruce Mowbray has second thoughts about walking behind Fef.
    arabella Ella: Hiya!
    Alfred Kelberry: ara the philosopher :)
    arabella Ella: Alfie!
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Fef, ara, and Alfred.
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Bruce, Ara :)
    arabella Ella: Hiya Fef, Bruce
    Fefonz Quan: Long time no see, Ara, how are you?
    arabella Ella: not too bad Fef
    arabella Ella: yourself?
    Fefonz Quan: I'm great :)
    arabella Ella pleased to hear that
    Fefonz Quan: are you planning on going to the coming Stutgart retreat?
    arabella Ella: unfortunately i cannot make it
    arabella Ella: will you be there?
    Fefonz Quan: oh, too bad. seems like me neither
    arabella Ella: owwww
    Fefonz Quan: though i really want to be there
    arabella Ella: i would have loved to go but circumstances don't permit it
    Fefonz Quan nods, i second that
    Alfred Kelberry: i read that thales of miletus was the first to postulate that god is intermingled in all things (unlike homer's anthropomorphic gods), which was later used in buddhism :)
    Fefonz Quan: I think you missed your buddhist class - there is no god in Buddhism
    Alfred Kelberry: it's in all of us
    Bruce Mowbray: Is there a difference between saying that god is intermingled in all things - and everything is god?
    Alfred Kelberry: we're all little buddhas :)
    arabella Ella: Hiya Arch
    Fefonz Quan: there is no god in buddhism Bruce, so your second phrase has no meaning there
    Archmage Atlantis: I think , oh and hi all, that there is literally no god in Buddhism....not even we as our own buddhas
    Alfred Kelberry: oi, archy
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Arch.
    Archmage Atlantis: Hiya Alfy
    Archmage Atlantis: Hey Bruce
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Arch
    Bruce Mowbray: I was thinking more of Pantheism than of Buddhism, actually.
    Archmage Atlantis: Fefonz, greetings
    arabella Ella: no Supreme Creator or Being at all?
    Bruce Mowbray: nope.
    Archmage Atlantis: Hey Ara
    Alfred Kelberry: i think there's too big of an attachment to the word "god" :)
    Fefonz Quan: nope
    Fefonz Quan: that's why i like it so much :)
    Bruce Mowbray: me too!
    Alfred Kelberry: it's just a concept, don't take it literally. especially from an ancient greece guy :)
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Alfred Kelberry: oh, it reminds me of a song...
    Archmage Atlantis: It's an important distinction tho
    arabella Ella: I personally feel it is important to believe in a Supreme Being though
    Bruce Mowbray: great! -- a song!
    Alfred Kelberry: "god is a concept... by which we measure... our pain... yes, we do..." :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Oy, vey.....Beatles again
    Alfred Kelberry: glorious thinkers :)
    Bruce Mowbray: well, if Buddhism is about suffering. . . then. . .
    Archmage Atlantis: You're not going to trick me into that one again, Alf
    Alfred Kelberry: :P
    Fefonz Quan: why do you feel it is important ara (even if it's not true, but thats another issue)
    Archmage Atlantis: The Buddha merely discussed the source of suffering
    Bruce Mowbray: and the ending of suffering.
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, after talking to a pali canon follower, i'm not it is so
    Bruce Mowbray: but back to ara. . .
    Alfred Kelberry: *sure
    arabella Ella: I dont have an answer Fef, for me believing is taking a simple leap of faith
    Alfred Kelberry: hmm
    Alfred Kelberry: i like it, ara
    Fefonz Quan: it is, but you think this leap is important to you
    Archmage Atlantis: Ara, I choose to believe in a Creator also.....but it is an irrational belief......Buddhism is far more rational
    arabella Ella: yes it is a decision one takes at one stage in life
    arabella Ella: why does it have to be irrational Arch?
    arabella Ella: to me it makes a lot of sense
    arabella Ella: but I dont like to proselytise
    Fefonz Quan: I think that if i understand you, for you thhis believe reliefs (at least some of (the suffering
    arabella Ella: i think each individual should be free to take their own decisions
    Fefonz Quan: proselytise?)
    arabella Ella: no Fef it has nothing to do with suffering, more to do with love and faith and hope
    arabella Ella: that means 'preach to others' Fef
    Fefonz Quan: thanks.
    Fefonz Quan: but is this believe a pre-condition for love an faith and hope?
    Archmage Atlantis: More than to preach, actually, to attempt to convince
    Bruce Mowbray: "to preach with the intention of converting them to your beliefs."
    Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.
    arabella Ella nods to Arch and Bruce
    arabella Ella: it is not a precondition for anything
    Fefonz Quan: well, no-one is preaching here, but we try to understand each others belief and sense
    arabella Ella: it is possibly the ideal state of love and hope and faith
    Bruce Mowbray listens with great interest to ara.
    Archmage Atlantis: There is another tradition, "to witness", that is to live a life that demonstrates without an attempt to convince
    arabella Ella: yes there is Arch
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Mick.
    Fefonz Quan: but can't this state be reached or inspire people without the need of this creator being?
    arabella Ella: and to add to what you said Arch the best witness we can demonsterate is to love our neighbour
    Fefonz Quan: Heya Mick
    Mickorod Renard: hi, God bless all
    arabella Ella: it can Fef, but each one of us should at a stage in life rationally reach a decision on it
    arabella Ella: Hiya Mick
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Fefonz, it can
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    arabella Ella: belief should also include respect and tolerance for the beliefs of others
    Mickorod Renard: too right
    Fefonz Quan: i totally agree.
    Fefonz Quan: did i show any disrespect?
    Alfred Kelberry: um, i don't see how belief in god is an ideal state of love
    arabella Ella: absolutely not Fef you are one of the most tolerant and respectful ppl i know here :)
    Fefonz Quan: I thoguht Ara meant god is the ideal state of love, not the believe
    arabella Ella: in the Platonic sense Alf if you know what I mean
    arabella Ella: an exemplar
    Bruce Mowbray is keeping track of everything and has observed nothing but respect here --- so far ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: I think many of these beliefs are diferent depending to what depth you take them
    Alfred Kelberry: i know and i still don't see how it's relevant
    Bruce Mowbray: "it" meaning "God" Alf?
    arabella Ella: can you perhaps see how it is relevant Alf for those of us who believe in God?
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce, belief in god and ideal sate of love connection
    Archmage Atlantis: Then, Alfred, that is your understanding.....and I will not argue it.....as it is yours alone....as is each of ours, ours alone
    Bruce Mowbray: ok -- Tnanks, Alf.
    Alfred Kelberry: ara, yes, but ideal sate?
    Fefonz Quan: If i get back to your initial Queastion Ara, one of the most interesting (and inspiring) to me regarding Buddhism is the ability to imagine some 'ideal state of love and compassion' without starting with nor ending by the creator concept
    Alfred Kelberry: [sorry, afk]
    Archmage Atlantis: God, the Creator, the Abyss, the Void.....there are all the great unknown
    arabella Ella: I dont know much about that Fefonz but for me God is like ... wrong word I know but ... a sort of ideal personification of love and goodness and mercy
    arabella Ella: and one God for all people
    arabella Ella: regardless of religion
    Mickorod Renard: I believe in God, although how I percieve God may be quite diferent to most, thats not important to me. I like to think God is the same for everyone but presented to them through their own beleifs, even if they dont say they have one
    Archmage Atlantis: i have a quote you may appreciate, Mick......let me dig around and find it
    Bruce Mowbray: Ara's experience of "the Divine" sounds very similar to Shambhala Buddhism's "Basic Goodness."
    Bruce Mowbray: And I'm all for Basic Goodness.
    Mickorod Renard: I even keep my beliefs to myself in most. which dispels the notion that all God believers convert others
    Mickorod Renard: thanks Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: God reveals himself to each as he can understand him, then lifts him up
    Mickorod Renard: that is very fitting arch
    arabella Ella: yes Bruce i guess so
    arabella Ella: basic goodness is a lovely way to put it
    Bruce Mowbray: Shambhala, as you probably already know, is descended through the Tibetan tradition.
    Bruce Mowbray: Trungpa, Pema Chodron, etc.
    Fefonz Quan: Yes also more ancient buddhism talks about 'Buddha nature' which is in (the core of) all of us
    arabella Ella: yes Bruce altho i know only a little about that
    arabella Ella: but goodness seems to be a prevalent theme within all beliefs
    arabella Ella: goodness love and charity
    Mickorod Renard: I read lots of stuff, I am into Wok and even suffi wisdom readings..Its all facinating
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Fef -- and when I say "pantheism" I mean probably the same thing that Buddhists mean by "Buddha Nature."
    Bruce Mowbray: me too, Mick.
    Fefonz Quan: So in buddhism, what makes people do wrong are their veils, their ignorance, and once it's removed, the basic goodness is a spontaneous reaction
    Archmage Atlantis: I believe the timeline of the new faiths is Lao Tze, Buddha, Zoroaster, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed....
    Bruce Mowbray agrees with Fef --- Basic Goodness is what underlies all the "stuff"
    Fefonz Quan: and even before, the indian veddas go back to 5000 bc, if i recall
    Mickorod Renard: I like to think that most the beliefs are tools to opening understanding
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, yet the vedas accepted many dieties, if I recall correctly
    Bruce Mowbray ponders: Does understanding come through belief - or does belief come through understanding? Or both?
    Fefonz Quan: though these many dieties, if i am not wrong (not a hindu scholar i am), are like many faces /architypes of the one all encompassing reality
    Mickorod Renard: maybe a glimer of understanding may lead a hunger to understand more
    Archmage Atlantis: Does the cornfield become the ball diamond? Or was the ball diamond always there?
    arabella Ella: i personally dont think we can ever really understand everything there 'is'
    Fefonz Quan: (ball diamond?)
    Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!
    Archmage Atlantis: baseball reference
    Bruce Mowbray: A baseball diamond -- the field on which the game of baseball is played.
    Fefonz Quan: well, i don't even understand that, not to mention everything ;-)
    arabella Ella: some philosophers have attempted to provide 'reasons' for belief including st thomas aquinas and st augustine
    arabella Ella: but i prefer kierkegaard with his leap of faith
    arabella Ella: oh st anselm was another
    Fefonz Quan: I think intelectual understanding and 'heart' understanding may as well go hand in hand
    Mickorod Renard: I like to read some of st thomas aquinas
    arabella Ella: he was a brilliant person Mick
    Fefonz Quan: both can reinforce and solidify each other
    Mickorod Renard: yes, takes some reading, but i like to ponder his work
    Bruce Mowbray: Aquinas was the Aristotle of medieval Christianity.
    Bruce Mowbray: much as Plotinus was the Plato of Christianity.
    Archmage Atlantis: I say "Blessings and Namaste" oft times as I see both as valid
    Mickorod Renard: even though one can find many negative things to say about the bible, as a mature person and a parent, i see many of the tales in it are a reflection of how dificult it is to contend with inner love for family members, just as God struggled with his miscevous children, 
    Archmage Atlantis: Namaste to me is "I see your belief and acknowledge it"
    Archmage Atlantis: Blessings is to me "I give you the power of my belief to use as you will"
    arabella Ella: i must admit again belief is not always easy
    arabella Ella: and many people here on SL think one must be mad to have any sort of belief
    arabella Ella: but i dont think science can explain everything
    Fefonz Quan: science don't claim to explain everything
    Fefonz Quan: (I think).
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Fefonz Quan: those who try to explain everything with science are like someone trying to chop a tree with a noodle
    Archmage Atlantis: Wellllll, except Stephen Hawking *g*
    arabella Ella: some people tend to think it does ... or will do some time in the future
    arabella Ella: exactly Arch ... Hawking style
    Mickorod Renard: I read more science stuff than religious stuff
    arabella Ella: I think people can be both religious and rational too
    arabella Ella: but not everyone would agre
    Fefonz Quan: science is doing great regarding what it's meant to do and explain
    Fefonz Quan: but the fields out of ti's reach may be dealt with totally different tools
    Mickorod Renard: maybe rational is just a convenient condition that some use just like some clain religion uses to control
    Mickorod Renard: being rational must curb artistic thought?
    Fefonz Quan: to me it's funny, the claim that everything can be explained rationaly (as i tend to do ;))
    Alfred Kelberry: *back*
    Alfred Kelberry: ara... i think i got you :)
    arabella Ella: Mick there is stuff like fuzzy logic and indeterminacy which are 'different' types of 'rational'
    arabella Ella: you got me Alfie?
    arabella Ella: how?
    Fefonz Quan: even practical researches, like economics ones, show that in many very simple decision we do everyday we don't act ratinally
    Archmage Atlantis: Of course, Mickorod, science is based on observation....which we know is imperfect.......and theories.....which we know are subject to new observations........
    Archmage Atlantis: Alfred!....thought you were gone for good
    arabella Ella: ah then there is 'objectivity'and 'falsifiability' too
    Archmage Atlantis: Elinor Rigby, eh, Alf?
    Fefonz Quan: rationalism can maybe be a very powerful tool, but as any tool, it is good for certain purposes
    arabella Ella nods
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Bruce Mowbray: Folks, this has been great -- and I will look forward to reading all of it on the wiki -- but there is a MAJOR lightning storm about to hit -- so I must get off line -- < May all be well and happy.
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.
    arabella Ella: thanks Bruce and bye for now :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Bi
    Mickorod Renard: bye brucy, have a good time tommorow
    Fefonz Quan: hope you won't enlighten too soon Arch :)
    Fefonz Quan: (Bruce, sorry)
    Alfred Kelberry: i talked to a friend of mine right now and i actually mentioend this "belief in god / ideal state of love" notion. well, she explained it to me :) as she understood, and it makes sense... so, she sees belief in god as a sort of universal connection between people (sort of a buddhist idea) and in this sense i understand what you mean.
    Archmage Atlantis: Not much chance of that, Fefonz
    arabella Ella: wow Alf that explains it so nicely thanks!
    Fefonz Quan: this is a very western ethnocentric view alf :)
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, that's what i told her as well :)
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, fef had to spoil it... :)
    Fefonz Quan: ('if i believe in something, all people must do to - hence it's universal!' )
    Archmage Atlantis: You may chose to look like a box, Alfred.....but there's a heart inside
    Mickorod Renard: I dont know if I would want to shorten the description to one sentance
    Mickorod Renard: sentence
    arabella Ella: why would the concept of universal goodness or love your neighbour be western Fef?
    Fefonz Quan: which description Mick (now we are curious)
    Alfred Kelberry: no, it's not like that, fef... you're making assumptions. it's simply a concept to explain. you may put "being" instead of god, or what suits you.
    Alfred Kelberry: archy :)
    Alfred Kelberry: thanks for the heart comment :)
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Fef, you have a baby on the way as I recall........if that is correct, what level of rational would you accept if this child were threatened
    Fefonz Quan: I've read a fascinating book from a professor in religions (and eatern ones) that explains how the good creator concept is so planted in the heart of the western thought (ewven the atheist ones), that they can't start to comprehend the eastern beliefs in a world that doesn't need this axiom
    Mickorod Renard: the sentence that alf found from his friend, it was nice, but I think there may be more too
    Fefonz Quan: Arch, if i was misunderstood, i repeat and say that i don't think rationality is holy
    Fefonz Quan: god*
    arabella Ella: that may be the case Fef but it may be impossible to prove and it is likely it also applies vice versa too
    Fefonz Quan: (i didn't understand the second half of your mesage Ara)
    arabella Ella: (about how the concept is implanted in western minds)
    Liza Deischer: hi :)
    arabella Ella: Hiya Liza how lovely to see you!
    Alfred Kelberry: fef, isn't it close to a buddhist idea of doing good and being a compassion citizen?
    Fefonz Quan: maybe implanted is a wrong word, i didn't mean to say it is artificial or less true than other eastern concepts
    Alfred Kelberry: we're all buddhas, all connected
    Mickorod Renard: its very odd i know, but for a period when i became quite connected to God, i saw what one would call his work, as extremely simple, well designed to the point of efficiency and minimalistic, maybe God is rational
    Fefonz Quan: what is close alf?
    arabella Ella: what i meant is that different ppl with different upbringings in different cultures each have different concepts which may be implanted in their minds ... not exclusively western minds
    Alfred Kelberry: what you called a "western view"
    Liza Deischer: that is three times 'different'
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Fefonz Quan: I agree ara
    Alfred Kelberry: liza :)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Fefonz Quan: but then the claim 'the believe in god is universal' is problematic
    arabella Ella: four times actually
    arabella Ella: who made that claim Fef?
    Liza Deischer: oh....
    Fefonz Quan: four different times :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Liza
    Alfred Kelberry: notice how attached we are to words :)
    Fefonz Quan: (al;f i think- to Ara)
    Liza Deischer is counting on her fingers
    Mickorod Renard: well noticed alf
    Alfred Kelberry: *hugs fef*
    arabella Ella: :)
    Fefonz Quan: that's nice :)
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    arabella Ella: Ah Alfie someone may be jealous
    Fefonz Quan: _/!\_ Alf
    Alfred Kelberry: *hugs ara* :)
    Alfred Kelberry: *hugs archy*
    Fefonz Quan: Alf is a real tin man with a big heart :)
    Alfred Kelberry: *hugs mick*
    Mickorod Renard: yeaaaaa
    Mickorod Renard: thanks alfie
    arabella Ella: owww Alf you have no idea how much i needed that hug thanks :)
    Alfred Kelberry: *hugs liza* :)
    Alfred Kelberry: ara, my pleasure :)
    Liza Deischer: *hugs Alfie*
    Mickorod Renard: love in itself is so simple yet so complex
    Alfred Kelberry: so true :)
    Fefonz Quan: 'love is real.... real is love'
    Alfred Kelberry: pythagoras said that music has a special way to our soul :)
    Liza Deischer: then he was right
    Mickorod Renard: interesting idea, from pythagoras
    Fefonz Quan: yes, he was a mathematician yet also a very mystic man
    Archmage Atlantis: Calls my Creator, the Lord of healing....to a group hug.......and to a Blessing and Namaste *g*
    Mickorod Renard: bye arch
    Alfred Kelberry: he gave birth to numerology, but i can forgive him that for this poetic musical discovery :)
    Liza Deischer: bye Arch
    Liza Deischer: :) Alf
    Alfred Kelberry: mick, in fact, music is what led him to his idea of numbers being the origin of all things
    Liza Deischer: science and mystics were often connected in those days
    Fefonz Quan: bye Arch
    Mickorod Renard: I do wonder whether there is a better way of learning maths through music that doesnt seem to have been capitalised on yet
    Mickorod Renard: wow, thanks Alf, I didnt know that
    Fefonz Quan: from my experience Mick, learning math the common way is much easier than learing math and music :)
    Mickorod Renard: never even considered he was interested in music
    Liza Deischer: you might be right Mick
    Liza Deischer: I guess it can give a different dimenstion to math
    Mickorod Renard: well, it was just a thought, cos i often hear of the link between math and music
    Fefonz Quan: aren't N dimensions enough? ;-)
    Alfred Kelberry: mick, um, there's a free course online called "physics of music" or something like that
    Mickorod Renard: I am rubbish at both math and music
    Alfred Kelberry: i think it's from stanford
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Mickorod Renard: :(
    Alfred Kelberry: i'm sure you can sense a lovely tune and enjoy it, mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: I could proberbly make musical instruments, but cant play them
    Liza Deischer: don't know if 'n' are dimensions?
    Liza Deischer: maybe a different category
    Alfred Kelberry: oh! it's awesome, mick!
    Alfred Kelberry: producing the means by which music is composed :)
    Fefonz Quan: (sorry liza, that was a geeky joke)
    Liza Deischer: I know Fonz, and actually I also smiled :)
    Liza Deischer: but forgot to mention that
    Mickorod Renard: I must admit to a desire to play, but i guess its not sufficent otherwise i would have found the patience
    Alfred Kelberry: what instrument(s) did you try?
    Mickorod Renard: guitar
    Alfred Kelberry: neat
    Mickorod Renard: and i now have a piano
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, good mix :)
    Fefonz Quan likes guitars too
    Alfred Kelberry: maybe we should make a music session live :)
    arabella Ella: that would be lovely
    Alfred Kelberry: ara will sing :)
    arabella Ella: do you play music Alf?
    Mickorod Renard: erm, not if i am playing
    arabella Ella: an instrument?
    Alfred Kelberry: um, a guitar a bit, some piano
    Mickorod Renard: I can whistle good
    Alfred Kelberry: mick! :)
    Liza Deischer: I surely don't have the patience to play music, but I am musical anyway
    Liza Deischer: so...... there is still hope Mick :)
    arabella Ella: I can listen
    arabella Ella: and appreciate
    Mickorod Renard: yes, i may try and learn a carol on the piano before xmas
    Liza Deischer: I'm glad my parents were more patient then I was
    Liza Deischer: :)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: today i played "apartment no 9" :)
    Liza Deischer: yes, listening is good too
    Mickorod Renard: my father played piano real good
    Liza Deischer: playing is different though
    Liza Deischer: ah, there you go, a musician in the family
    Alfred Kelberry: mick, a carol would be awesome - go for it! :)
    Mickorod Renard: yea, i must
    Liza Deischer: I agree with Alf :)
    arabella Ella: :)
    arabella Ella: which carol Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: not sure
    arabella Ella: surely not carol from down the road?
    Mickorod Renard: will have to have a look which is easiest
    Liza Deischer: hehehe
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Liza Deischer: you read notes, or you do it from your head?
    Mickorod Renard: I would have to read notes
    Liza Deischer: ah
    arabella Ella: can you read music Mick?
    Liza Deischer: wish I could help you, but England is to far off I'm afraid
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: liza, pab is close :)
    Mickorod Renard: I can manage an odd tune by using the scales and having stickers on the keyboard
    Liza Deischer: true Alf, but this needs a different kind of attention
    arabella Ella: I must be off now bye everyone!
    Alfred Kelberry: oh, ara is leaving :(
    Liza Deischer: bye Ara, nice to have seen you :)
    arabella Ella: hugs alfie before leaving!
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Ara, great seeing you here
    Alfred Kelberry: bye :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye ara, i will be leaving too in a minute
    Mickorod Renard: needs his sleepy
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Fefonz Quan: me too. think i stop the recording if it's ok with you
    Alfred Kelberry: tell us your dream next time, mick :)
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Liza Deischer: yes, okay with me
    Fefonz Quan: gnight Mick
    Liza Deischer: need to go to sleep too
    Mickorod Renard: what I need is a young 20 year old babe in a skimpy maids outfit to come and give me lessons each day, I may manage that
    Alfred Kelberry: meep-meep!
    Liza Deischer: hmmm, sorry Mick, that's not me :))
    Fefonz Quan: not me too :)
    Alfred Kelberry: don't look at me like that, mick :)
    Alfred Kelberry: it's not me either :)
    Liza Deischer: hehehe
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    Mickorod Renard: bye guys
    Fefonz Quan: good night all!
    Liza Deischer: ye everyone :)
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