2010.09.23 01:00 - No 'I'

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Alf Kelberry, Bertram Jacobus and myself.

    Difficulty of explaining SL priorities to outsiders:

    Bertram Jacobus: hello zen ! :-)
    Zen Arado: Hi Bert :)
    Bertram Jacobus: is this your slot ?
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. seems to be - yes ;-)
    Zen Arado: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: how are you today ?
    Zen Arado: not many turn up at this time
    Zen Arado: I'm fine - a little tired is all
    Bertram Jacobus: i like it sometimes when it´s not so "overcrowded" *smile*
    Zen Arado: and you?
    Bertram Jacobus: ah - i have difficult things to handle - but may be i can learn from it ...
    Zen Arado: yes - and I go early if no - one turns up :)
    Zen Arado: I think we all have difficult things in our lives.....
    Zen Arado: just different things
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. so i don´t want to detain you ! (?)
    Zen Arado: no - no problem - I prefer it if people turn up
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. ah. nice ... :-)
    Zen Arado: I had a problem this morning...my care worker was late
    Bertram Jacobus: oh
    Zen Arado: I explan to him that I need to be up at 7.30 to go to a meeting in SL but he doesn't understand
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe - really not !? ;-)
    Zen Arado: just scratches his head
    Bertram Jacobus: lol okay ...
    Bertram Jacobus: sometimes communication is not so easy ? :-)
    Zen Arado: I only need him in case I can't get from lying down to sitting up in bed - but I can manage it most of the time
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. i see ...
    Zen Arado: I find it difficult to explain to people about being in a meeting in SL
    Bertram Jacobus: hmm - i would tell simply i have a meeting in the net then ?
    Zen Arado: they don't understand that it is important to me
    Bertram Jacobus: (see above) ? ;-)
    Zen Arado: people who don't use computers much don't understand
    Bertram Jacobus: hmm - but even in economy and companies meetings in the net meanwhile are usual - no ?
    Zen Arado: yes - so they should understand
    Bertram Jacobus: that is what i thought - could be possible at least ...
    Bertram Jacobus: and would be nice, better may be : understanding each other ...
    Zen Arado: some of my friends are old...
    Bertram Jacobus: i forget again and again - silly me - sry : which time is it at your place now ? also 10:11 - like in germany ?
    Zen Arado: they think I am mad if I try to explain SL
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. my mom is old, too. i know what you mean. but
    Zen Arado: no - it is 9.11 am
    Bertram Jacobus: she is friendly. that helps so much (!)
    Bertram Jacobus: ah okay . ty

    Summer time:

    Bertram Jacobus: you have no change of summer- and wintertime in ireland ?
    Zen Arado: oh yes - it is getting colder now
    Bertram Jacobus: okay
    Zen Arado: oh sorry - you mean time change
    Bertram Jacobus: yes ! :-)
    Zen Arado: yes - they go one hour forward for summer
    Zen Arado: it will go back near the end of October
    Bertram Jacobus: ty. made a notic e now - nice function in sl - that we can make notices on the people´s profiles ! ;-)
    Zen Arado: they do that in Germany too?
    Bertram Jacobus: go back ? from where to where ?
    Zen Arado: the time changes in summer? I mean
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. we have also this change of time ;-)
    Zen Arado: yes - I should do that (make notes on people's profiles)
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe - but what meant "you go back at the end of october" plz ?
    Zen Arado: just that the time goes back one hour
    Zen Arado: changes one hour
    Bertram Jacobus: ah - i guessed now. again silly bert ! ;-)
    Zen Arado: it is just the way we say it
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. you´re so kind and friendly ... ty ... :-)
    Zen Arado: you speak English so well
    Zen Arado: I don't speak any German
    Zen Arado: so I am very silly :)
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m not content with it. always would like to have it so to say perfect. perfection. i cling to it. bah ... ;-)
    Zen Arado: you get plent of practice in SL
    Zen Arado: I used to have a French girlfriend in SL and could practice speaking French
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. but this idea or feeling of wanting it perfectly - is a real hindrance to me - interesting and bad !
    Zen Arado: even of you were English you wouldn't speak it perfectly!
    Bertram Jacobus: so i stumble always or at least mostly when i don´t understand a word or sentence - and loose totally the so to say floating with the presence
    Bertram Jacobus: "must" look it up and search in dictionaries at once - all that - terrible
    Zen Arado: there is quite a difference between American english and English English also
    Bertram Jacobus: very bad attribute. bah ;-)

    Phoenix translator:

    Zen Arado: did you ever use a translator program?
    Bertram Jacobus: "sure. i know" (about that difference, at least in general. not all the details, all for sure, again)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. i sometimes use it
    Bertram Jacobus: or such. (there are some. translator programs)
    Zen Arado: I see there is a translate[or at the top of the chat window in Phoenix
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow
    Bertram Jacobus: didn´t notice it before !
    Zen Arado: say something in German and we will see if it translates
    Bertram Jacobus: hallo zen ;-)
    Zen Arado: I ckecked the box
    Bertram Jacobus: ja. macht es hier :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: aber nur in eine richtung leider
    Bertram Jacobus: nicht anders herum
    Zen Arado: nothing happening for me
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe - die letzten vier zeilen habe ich in deutsch geschrieben (!) :-)
    Zen Arado: it doesn't seem to work
    Bertram Jacobus: yes ! i see german and english translation here
    Bertram Jacobus: and you only get the english translation, right ?
    Zen Arado: I don't get anything - only what you put in
    Bertram Jacobus: dann bitte wiederhol doch mal, was du jetzt hier liest (?)
    Zen Arado: Bertram Jacobus: dann bitte wiederhol doch mal, was du jetzt hier liest (?) (then please type me what you read here now (?))
    Bertram Jacobus: ah - so you get german AND english translation - isn´t that okay , working ? and whaow - i see only now (translator off now) - in my chat box there it was different :
    Zen Arado: ah - I see
    Bertram Jacobus: [01:29] Bertram Jacobus: dann bitte wiederhol doch mal, was du jetzt hier liest (?) (Then please repeat but sometimes what you read here now (?))
    Zen Arado: the phrase in brackets is the translation
    Bertram Jacobus: yes
    Zen Arado: I thought you had typed that :)
    Zen Arado: that is very useful
    Bertram Jacobus: so it works from all languages into english as it seems, but not from english into other languages ...
    Bertram Jacobus: half of the job so to say (?) ;-)
    Zen Arado: maybe you can set that in preferences
    Bertram Jacobus: but the google tranlation system is known as the most intelligent one which exists currently. at least as an already in use program, spreaded and such ...
    Zen Arado: is it ?
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. may be. but i´m not good in such (searching such features) ... ;-)
    Zen Arado: I use one called Simbolic but it makes many mistakes
    Bertram Jacobus: but don´t mind plz ! and ty ! :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. the simbolic one i have too. it helps to write simple sentences when one uses it ... ;-)
    Zen Arado: but I will leave the Google one checked
    Zen Arado: and it will automatically detect and translate for me
    Bertram Jacobus: and sometimes - it´s even fun (simbolic) :o)
    Bertram Jacobus: unwillingly ;-)
    Zen Arado: yes :)

    Importance of transport system:

    Zen Arado: you aren't working at the moment Bert?
    Bertram Jacobus: no. but will change in a few weeks again i think ...
    Zen Arado: ah good
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m in a program which supports me in being selfemployed then
    Zen Arado: what kind of work do you do?
    Bertram Jacobus: quite silly : transportation, of all kinds so to say
    Bertram Jacobus: but meanwhile more little things because my back isn´t that good anymore - but that´s okay so far
    Zen Arado: not silly - very important work
    Bertram Jacobus: on the one hand : yes, you´re right. on the other : quite rude conditions and circumstances
    Zen Arado: I need people to take me places because I can't drive a car any more
    Bertram Jacobus: and one could also put the question : what is it good for and which goods are transported
    Bertram Jacobus: and i admire that from the buddha is told that he didn´t accept any orders at all anymore when he was enlightened (!) ...
    Zen Arado: we don't realise how much we rely on people bringing things to our supermarkets
    Zen Arado: no transport, no food
    Bertram Jacobus: i do. but i know what you mean. and that is right, correct (which word fits better here ? right or correct?)
    Bertram Jacobus: heyy alfi ! :-)
    Zen Arado: both are correct, right :)
    Bertram Jacobus: lol okay :-)
    Zen Arado: Hi Alfred
    Bertram Jacobus: is that now a help to me ? *consider* ... :o)
    Alfred Kelberry: oi :)
    Alfred Kelberry: sorry, landed on you, bert :)
    Alfred Kelberry: i'm late this time
    Bertram Jacobus: alf - may i ask in which country you live ? so it would be for you morning, too - as for zen and me ?
    Alfred Kelberry: it's not really relevant :)
    Zen Arado: we think we are individuals but we are all so dependent on everyone else
    Bertram Jacobus: np at all - we never know alf ... (who may be on our landing point) ... :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: relevance ... so relative ! ... ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s both zen i guess : we are individuals AND interdepending, no ?

    Introduced the topic of non duality:

    Zen Arado: I am reading about 'non dualism' at the moment
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow -
    Zen Arado: those teachers say there is no separate 'you'
    Bertram Jacobus: that´s nicely expressed ! :-) ("non dualism") :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: hm - i only know that we never know - and even about that i´m not sure ... ;-)
    Zen Arado: http://urbangurucafe.com/
    Alfred Kelberry: sorry i disturbed your duality :)
    Bertram Jacobus: and so my impression is - that we can take many views at the so appearing "things", also "relations", abstract ideas and whatever
    Alfred Kelberry: zen, in this sense, you're not only reading, but experiencing it :)
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t feel o disturbance from you alf, not at all, in contrary : an enrichement !
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Zen Arado: I hope I am a 'oneness'
    Zen Arado: not a duality :)
    Zen Arado: there is no 'me' basically
    Alfred Kelberry: i think oneness is when you reach enlightment
    Zen Arado: just a bunch of physical and mental processes
    Bertram Jacobus: i can view it in those different ways : see me as a me, as a onness, as duality, all of that - or none
    Zen Arado: it's useful to imagine a self sometimes
    Bertram Jacobus: (me as i - oneness- typos bah) :o)
    Zen Arado: but it doesn't really exist I think
    Bertram Jacobus: to me that is not so important. more important how we beings feel
    Alfred Kelberry: i like that, bert
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Zen Arado: yes Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: :-))
    Bertram Jacobus: ty ! :-)
    Zen Arado: we just 'be' whatever we are
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe - may i agree ? :-)
    Zen Arado: without believing all the stories we make up
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m not good in believing i think again and again ... hm
    Alfred Kelberry: there's also how we're being sensed by others
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. that´s something
    Zen Arado: true
    Zen Arado: but maybe there are no others
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. again : is that important ? really important ?
    Zen Arado: there's no one here
    Alfred Kelberry: i don't like this idea :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: what is important?
    Bertram Jacobus: but - some ideas give some a nice feeling and others - not
    Alfred Kelberry: um, can't remember who was it who coined this concept
    Zen Arado: what concept Alf?
    Bertram Jacobus: the "may all beings be happy" perhaps zen (?) ("important")
    Zen Arado: sometimes things happen that make us unhappy
    Zen Arado: there is pain and problems in life
    Alfred Kelberry: zen, that everything is imagination of our mind
    Alfred Kelberry: descartes?
    Zen Arado: all we can do is not add extra stories and too much thinking that makes it worse
    Bertram Jacobus: sure. sadly. we experience such. but the end of suffering - i find that is a very attractive - so to say - aim, goal
    Zen Arado: think you are referring to Berkley's idealism Alf
    Bertram Jacobus: wasn´t descartes the man with the mecanical view of the world ? including "deus ex machina" ? ...
    Zen Arado: I wasn't saying everything is mind Alf
    Alfred Kelberry: well, it was him who vanished in a bar :)
    Bertram Jacobus: and zen - i think about such advices like "our views decide how we experience life" ...
    Bertram Jacobus: (or may be more correctly expressed : "our views make that") ? ... hm -
    Zen Arado: non dualism is difficult to grasp
    Zen Arado: probably beacuse there isn't anything to grasp
    Bertram Jacobus: and - descartes vanished in a bar ? really ? if so, i had a lack of knowing refering to that ... :-)
    Zen Arado: didn't know that either Alf:)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. but may be we can experience such zen, even if also these words and all words may not describe it correctly
    Zen Arado: Interesting idea, that if there is the seen, there must also be a see-er. And there can't be seeing without something seen. So we divide a process that is really only one thing into two things, a subject and an object.
    Bertram Jacobus: i like the sentence "the finger which points to the moon is not the moon" and like also to add : but at least it´s a finger which points to the moon (!) ;-)
    Alfred Kelberry: "Descartes walks into a bar. The bartender says, "Are you having a beer?" Descartes says, "I think not," and ceases to exist."
    Zen Arado: yes Bert - ther are only pointers but they aren't what they point to
    Alfred Kelberry: for the record :)
    Zen Arado: lol Alf
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe alf - ah yes. i remember that ... :o)
    Bertram Jacobus: but zen : that is one if the questions i find no answer to it is sure : how should we know for sure whether there is something whithout being experienced or not ? i find that totally not to be known - no ?
    Zen Arado: people only remember Descartes for his 'cogito ergo sum'
    Bertram Jacobus: one of the questions*
    Zen Arado: there is only what we experience in this moment - no?
    Zen Arado: when we were a little baby we were part of everything and only had experiences and feelings
    Bertram Jacobus: no. there is much more - we can say because we know our senses are limited and in former times there was even more which was not to be experienced, without microscopes for example
    Bertram Jacobus thinks about the baby experience ...
    Zen Arado: as we grow older someone tells us our name and teaches us labels for everything
    Zen Arado: so we become something separate....
    Zen Arado: we believe the labels and not the real thing
    Bertram Jacobus: yes, but zen : i find, we can´t decide whether there is something or nothing. and obviously it seems as there is something - again : no ? ;-)
    Zen Arado: there is something for sure
    Zen Arado: but just processes
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m not sure at all
    Bertram Jacobus: but i take it as it seems to me, at least practically
    Zen Arado: when we 'know' something it separates us from reality
    Zen Arado: in a way
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t know whether knowing must be a seperate thing
    Bertram Jacobus: is not all natural, can be called so ?
    Zen Arado: because reality is always changing and fluid and knowing kind of freezes things
    Bertram Jacobus: all part of being ? also knowing ?
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. no. that i would call clinging perhaps
    Zen Arado: yes - clinging to a knowing of things
    Bertram Jacobus: but i don´t want to do hairsplitting ;-)
    Zen Arado: don't worry - I am only pondering these things
    Bertram Jacobus: and i like our talks ...
    Bertram Jacobus: but like more being then philosophy i must admit
    Bertram Jacobus: and entertainement ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: lol
    Zen Arado: yes - I gave up on philosophy
    Bertram Jacobus: great - happy to read that ! ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: lol
    Bertram Jacobus: i hope i didn´t cause bad feelings here ? in having been so controvert here and there ? will try to stop it now again ...
    Zen Arado: our language makes us think there is an subject and an object - it makes a dualism
    Zen Arado: no no Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: to me both at least is interesting : the duality and the non duality
    Bertram Jacobus: pheww :-)
    Zen Arado: I like to hear people'sperspectives
    Bertram Jacobus: and i like the idea that both may be at the bottom - non dualistic ...
    Zen Arado: it feels right somehow
    Bertram Jacobus: and good (!) at least to me ... yes
    Zen Arado: the 'I' causes us suffering
    Zen Arado: it has to be protected
    Zen Arado: it gets angry and jealous etc
    Zen Arado: but I am thinking at the moment that if there is no 'I' but just a bunch of processes, then there is no free will
    Zen Arado: no 'I' deciding what to do
    Zen Arado: no 'doer'
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. but as a bare practical object it makes sense i find. i wouldn´t like so much always to say for example this bunch of conditions instead of "me" or "i" - i think, people would find that quite strange ... ;-)
    Zen Arado: just things getting done
    Zen Arado: agree Bert
    Zen Arado: what do you think Alf?
    Zen Arado: are we talking rubbish?
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. free will to me is a combination i don´t agree with. i see freedom and will. will to me is conditioned and freedom not. freedom comes in my understanding from that non dual realm and will from the duality
    Zen Arado: yes - freedom is a strange concept anyway
    Bertram Jacobus: but may be that contains also a very subtile range where both of them - non duality and duality even come togehther
    Zen Arado: no one is ever really free without constraints
    Zen Arado: yes Bert - it is all just labels and we can throw the labels away eventually
    Bertram Jacobus: yes - or said the other way round : consequently - freedom is beyond duality
    Zen Arado: just rest in what is
    Alfred Kelberry: *back*
    Zen Arado: wb Alf
    Alfred Kelberry: sorry, i was away
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. and the labels we can use for the every days needs : food and so on ...
    Zen Arado: and we just found the solution to reality while you were away :)
    Bertram Jacobus: wb and np at all alf (!) :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe - yes we did. :-)
    Alfred Kelberry: oh, good! what is it? :)
    Zen Arado: I heard a scientist say on the radio this morning that we are coming to the end of pure science
    Bertram Jacobus: so i can leave now - it´s to be read in the log or by scrolling up now - hope you don´t mind me leaving now ß (!) ... ;-)
    Zen Arado: we can't go on building bigger and bigger colliders
    Zen Arado: np Bert
    Zen Arado: I have to go myself
    Bertram Jacobus: tyvm for the talk ! :-)
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Zen Arado: thank you
    Alfred Kelberry: it was nice seeing you :)
    Bertram Jacobus: and may all beings be happy plz (!) :-)
    Zen Arado: thanks to you both
    Bertram Jacobus: ty2 :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: *wave*
    Zen Arado: bye

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